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iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



I guess they won't make a point that Asians are all but gone (Aside from Mikasa) in the world.

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iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



Is there a new thread or something, or is this Manga just dead now to people here?

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



Monkey's dad might be the big bad.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



I had a bit of a hard time following the action at the end and thought it could've used a few more panels. Seems like a rather risky gamble on Armin's part being that there was no way to know that Eren could do everything he did at the end. But I suppose there weren't that many options.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



ATP_Power posted:

I'm wondering if Willy is even the true carrier of the Warhammer Titan, given that they knew about the attack beforehand and he was planning to be the target. For as explosively as that chapter ended, we still don't have a very clear picture of how many plots are in motion, and who is in on what. For instance, even though the other warriors were neutralized or contained, Zeke's still free - and his game here remains unclear. We still aren't even sure if it was Paradisians or Marley who trapped Piek and Galliard.

I''m pretty confident that Eren's attack was part of a bigger plan by Armin, and that the Advancing Titan destroying the stage will be the queue for a broader attack/operation - though against who, and for what goal exactly we'll have to wait and see. Decapitating the leadership of Marley and its army could be enough, but killing or capturing the remaining 7 titans out of Paradis's hands also looks like a possible aim as well - the question is where the gently caress Zeke is positioned in this mess?


It's pretty unlikely he is. Considering there's still a few blatant mysteries we've been given (who did Eren mail, the identity of the solder who led the warriors to the trap, Tybur knowing he was likely dead and what he planned around it) This is probably the beginning of a bunch of moves and counter moves and we'll be seeing a lot more Paradisians in the mainland soon.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



drat that was insane. Presumably, they were counting on Eren eating Warhammer at the beginning, so maybe the ensuing Miksa intervention was an elaborate backup plan. It's kind of amazing how woefully unprepared Marley was for an attack. I get the impression Zeke and Reiner did a horrible job warning them and conveying all the poo poo they experienced on Paradis. Anyway, an amazing chapter.

Also, random question, did they ever explain why or if Historia's sister visited Eren at the very beginning of the story? Did that actually happen or does he simply have her memories in him now as he gained the Coordinator power?

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



Yeah, though it seems like they believed they would be able to turn Eren and have him join the Marleyans. At least they were hopeful. That would've been interesting seeing Reiner's anguish as the Marleyans sacrifice his demon buddy for the greater good.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



DaveKap posted:

Because at one point, Reiner calls the Female Titan "the one with the nice rear end"

It'd be awesome if they remember Annie's still around in the manga. Heck, it would be fun if the Female Titan holder was eaten by some rando male titan just to see the in-world take on 2019 gender identity politics (which would probably be offensive to current American sensibilities).

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



I wouldn't have guessed a timeloop plot, at least not based on Grisha's actions. So are we going to see when Eren eats Grisha?


Time traveling Eren:
"Dad... hold the door."
"Ok Eren, I'm holding the door"
"Hold the door"
"Holddoor"
"Hodor"
Freshly titanized Eren shuts his dad up with a gulp.


I can't remember, is there a reason Eren couldn't use the founding power via contact with Historia? Or has she simply been kept away from him like Zeke?

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



Considering that Eren was apparently controlling everything Zeke just saw, and would presumably be aware of everything Grisha told him, as shown by the flashback of him holding Historia's hand, I think it's safe to say there's a few more major twists to be revealed in the next chapter. Maybe we'll find out he pulled an Ozymandias and already initiated his apocalyptic plan.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



Man this is going to amazing to re-read (assuming the ending doesn't disappoint). How popular is AoT in mainstream culture? I feel like this has got to be one of the most underrated pieces of literature of contemporary writing.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



The Mangastream version is up with a somewhat better translation. However, this page is still a bit confusing for me.

Is Eren saying that he himself is a man who's denied Grisha's wishes of Eldian restoration, a denial which is his own form of self-affirmation? But that he's also still his dead father's pitiful slave?

I feel like something's lost in translation here, whether he's trying to be metaphorical with Zeke or not. I think he's trying to say with that prior statement that this is what Zeke believes Eren to be, but it's so awkwardly worded.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



Thanks for the input. The "The only one you have" is probably just an awkward translation, but it makes sense that he's now talking about Zeke. Maybe it's better as "That leaves us with you, a man whose continued existence..."

I guess it makes Zeke's response more sensible, saying that his dad's actions leads to Zeke's saving the world.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



Not at all familiar with this Muv-Luv, but I can totally see parallels between the Sorceress stuff and the Founding Titan.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



Tenzarin posted:


So if Marley did win and they defeated the Eldians in their paradise city, do you think the generals would be like, ok guys start eating all these dead people lets get their power!


I think it's implied that in the story that yes, Marleyans and anyone that could've defeated them would've likely done awful things like mate with the empowered Eldians and taken the powers for themselves. Hell, they did almost exactly that in modern times, I think the only reason they didn't literally integrate the power with Marleyan blood wholesale was the long history behind the hatred and violence between their peoples.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



To be fair to Zeke there's no way he'd know much about Ymir's nature or history. Presumably Eren's seen everything via his powers, but Zeke's likely still just barely grasping everything as it comes, since concrete information has been so difficult to come by. He's perpetuating the cycle of exploiting Ymir because he has no reason to know any better. His knowledge base is barely above thinking it's all crazy unfathomable magic. Most of the science/research seemed to only be done recently and in Paradis anyway.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



Liquid Dinosaur posted:

But what exactly is the "Royal Line?" The Founding Titan line, because of aforementioned mind control powers? And enough generations of people with the Founding Titan breeding can even manifest the scream power outside of titan form, or when using a Titan from a different family (Beast)?

I forget it was stated, but I do assume that each Titan Shifter's family amassed great power and influence and would take great pains to keep the power within the family, and that it would very quickly stop being a thing you give to "slaves," except in the sense that the bearer of the power is a slave to their family's interests. I mean, by whatever era the cracked mural was made, the fact that Freida was a slave to a mundane Kor anything less than a ruling God-Queen with full agency was already forgotten.

I think the "Royal Line" is mystically what Ymir perceives to be the descendant family of rightful heirs to the Eldian crown. The only significance to the power is that she is enslaved to their will. There's probably a very limited number of branches that she'll recognize before it's considered too "diluted" or out of the contention for possible kings/queens. And maybe we're about to see what happens when she removes her fealty to that clan.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



In all fairness to Eren, it's virtually a zero sum game between the Paradisians and everyone else. The story's been some level of allegory about the distrustful nature of human beings and how true peace was probably never obtainable between them and the world.

Even if Zeke's plan was carried out, it's probably fair to believe that wouldn't be enough to placate their enemies and it would still lead to a genocidal or torturous fate for the remaining Eldians.

The non-apocalyptic version of his plan would be to use all these titans to disarm the entire world as well as cripple their technologies and structures while asserting heavy handed dominance with the Paradisians ending up as the world power.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



TheHan posted:

Eren genociding the entire world and setting things back to what we were led to believe was the case at the start of the series is actually the most fitting and most Eren ending.

The start of the series but without Titan horrors to terrorize his friends.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



Viridiant posted:

Jesus Christ Eren, just don't do a genocide, okay? Can you just not? Calm down a bit, have a Snickers.

Where are Historia, Annie, Levi, and Hange during all this?

But if the choice was commit genocide or have everyone you love and care for become victims of genocide, what's the best option?

Not that that's the literal situation, but I believe that's Eren's general thought process.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



Squidster posted:

If Eren plans to murder everyone outside the walls, why notify all the mainland Eldians he's about to wipe them out? They're clearly supposed to warn the rest of the non-Eldian world to rally against him.

Clearly? The guy probably didn't even know he could mass communicate with all Eldians until like a split second ago. It's hard to say he's even thinking that rationally or even carefully. Even if this is a supposed rally, what is the world supposed to do against what's apparently unstoppable?

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



Manatee Cannon posted:

didn't she already do that basically and he just didn't get it

The thing that shouldn't be overlooked is that we shouldn't assume these characters have anything approaching normal standards of EQ and mental health. Eren's probably got a hugely broken brain from PTSD, Attack Titan powers, all sorts of manipulation, etc. At this point, I wouldn't rule anything out for triggering a good or bad response from him. When's the last time he's felt genuine love and affection? Maybe from his mom years ago?

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



TheHan posted:

I don't think Eren is necessarily frothing mad. Super angry at the world sure, but he's already seen himself do this and probably seen how it plays out, and it doesn't look like he gets to the finish line. The way Armin and Mikasa talk about him changing it's like the fact that he hasn't been incredibly passionate and angry is out of the norm.
Even if he's not "frothing" mad, he's angry enough to kill everyone.

He also up and disappeared x months ago and since they found him, he's committed war crimes, basically started a global war on Paradis and been a complete rear end in a top hat when they interact. They're not sure about him anymore, regardless of knowing whose side he's on.

Also, are people even certain that Armin and Mikasa would be opposed to this global genocide plan? We've only glimpsed their interactions with the outside world and their overall views probably aren't much more favorable than Eren's.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



Elias_Maluco posted:

Admin and Mikasa would never go for that. They would prefer to try and survive keeping the great rumble as a deterrent weapon, and try to work diplomatically over time to make the world see they are not monsters. That's what they thought Eren was going for when he started the rumble

But yeah, Eren is not crazy, he is just very very angry. And situation is really: either they keep trying to survive in this world that wants them dead, while working to change their perception, which is what someone sensible like Armin would choose; or they just genocide themselves, like someone crazy with self hate like Zeke would choose; or they strike back and kill them first, which is what someone angry like Eren would choose. Is what he wants to do since the very beginning

I think you're right about their ideals and would they would attempt to do, but Armin's also very analytical enough to potentially see that even as deterrents, the titans won't be effective for long. That world is rapidly developing technologically and it's really only a matter of time before the Paradisians are wiped from the earth, if not from hatred and fear, then also for their precious resources.

Frankly, I'm not even sure there is a good way out of this without one side getting wiped outside of a crazy deus ex machina to prevent the horror as well as instill faith and love in the global society in their fellow man. I suppose it's possible that something like the spine monster that took Ymir could incarnate into a anthropomorphic god, but who knows.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



Super Rad posted:

If Eren really wanted to kill everyone outside the walls, both Eldian and non-Eldian, why not just transform every Eldian outside the walls into colossal titans? I mean I guess it would take an eternity to build them all out of sand?

I don't think he can unless they've been given spinal fluid.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



TheHan posted:


I don’t think they’re down with global genocide because they’re both way more well-adjusted than Eren and also writing a story where all your heroes are down with global genocide would be insane.

Armin I'll agree, but Mikasa is not well adjusted. Maybe relatively speaking only in the strictest sense compared to Eren.

Anyway, I'm not saying they'd be advocating for global genocide, but I'm unclear they'd be impassioned against it either. Have they expressed excitement over the existence of a greater world outside of Paradis outside of the little bits in the latest chapter? They grew up assuming the human race was already eradicated outside of their walls and once they learned other people existed, it turned out those people despise them and caused the deaths of their loved ones.

I could see their endgame story being less about saving the world and more about saving what's left of Eren's humanity.

comedyblissoption posted:

The rest of the world (or at least marley) basically declared war on paradis before eren retaliated. Also marley had massacred tons of eldians on paradis before this declaration as a pre-emptive strike with no provocation from paradis.

It's not about having a blow by blow call of who literally started what first, or what justifications were in place. It's about their childhood friend enacting extreme and catastrophic measures, much of which they likely didn't think he'd be morally capable of before. And to that point, I'm saying that they no longer have a solid idea of where his mind is at and what his limits are. They've been literally guessing for the entire arc.

iamsosmrt fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Nov 8, 2019

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



Super Rad posted:

Well she's half Ackerman and half Azumabito which makes that a bit unclear, but even if she were full Ackerman it was stated by Eren that Ackermans get their abilities through a connection to the paths so maybe that's all it takes for Eren to be able to reach out to them.

I thought her dad was a local, which would make her roughly 25/25/50% Ack/Az/Eldian.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



Not that I expect this to enter the plot, but technically anyone who's ever held the Attack Titan before or even after Eren could have influenced his or his father's actions at any point of the story. It could very well come out that the will of the first Attack Titan has a similar control or manipulation like the king in the royal family/Founding Titan.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



Elijah Snow posted:

No. As far as I understand it, only Eren has unlocked this hidden ability. The Attack Titan has been MIA since ever, so no real chance of buddying up with a royal blood, go into sand dreamscape, subvert deals etc. Either Eren did it all, or he only knows as much as he showed Zeke. But I got the idea that the will of the Attack Titan IS Eren's, and has always been going forward to reach this specific point in its plan.

Did they give a specific history of the Attack Titan? I assumed it's always existed in someone regardless of whether the Eldians recorded its history. I'll have to re-read the story from the start at some point.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



I don't even know what I want, but I have faith that it's going to be good and mind blowing. This series hasn't failed me since the beginning, which is unprecedented in my manga experience. It'll be the first I re-read.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



TheHan posted:

Eren made it pretty clear to them that he’s not on his way to dismantle the Marley government and the systemic reasons for the suffering of Eldians but instead will stomp all over them, the mainland Eldians and the rest of the world like an angry lil boy.

That doesn't really contradict Beefstew's post, at least not in terms of Eren's perspective. He's stomping over all potential outside oppressors to his precious Paradisians.

If Armin is deadset against Eren's plan, the only thing I can see him doing to get a decent outcome for his people is to eat Eren, grab Zeke, and still wipe out all military forces and and have himself become the new nuke button/last measure against the rest of the world. Because there's really no way out of getting out of some death and destruction at this point.

iamsosmrt fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Nov 21, 2019

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



Elias_Maluco posted:

Is that even still possible? Ymir is free now, Eren freed her. She don't have to follow the coordinate anymore. Or does she? She is doing the rumbling by her own will or because Eren commanded it?

That part is not very clear to me

That's the beauty of this story. You may very well be correct, but the world is being built as we read it. Perhaps she's completely free or perhaps he's still actually controlling her. I'm sure it'll be mind blowing, whatever's revealed.

Schubalts posted:

Even before that, the rest of the world hated Eldians just as much as Marley. Eldia apparently had a massive, globe-spanning empire like Britain did during the height of colonialism.

Yeah, pretty much this... Which is why I'm not so sure Armin and Mikasa will do much to stop Eren, aside from maybe trying to convince him not to kill everyone off the island. And who knows, maybe the rumblers will act more as sloppy siege units that simply destroy all structures and big weapons rather than seek out individuals so a lot of people will be spared and have diminished lifestyle quality as opposed to loss of life.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



Yeah, I want to believe no one here actually agrees with genocide, but this story has done an amazing job of building this world and explaining the lovely circumstances that brought Eren to this point.

I think people should try not to project their own knowledge and biases from the real life globalized world when considering this Titan universe, as specifically Eren and co. are not coming from remotely the same circumstances of any real life people. They haven't been raised knowing about a giant world outside of their hometown, of a greater society of which they should feel included. It's unclear how much political or sociological education they've ever received, but chances are that it's very low and very little that would touch on how to pursue diplomacy with foreign nations. Eren's also basically still a kid who's been thrust into an incredibly awful life and granted powers beyond anything normally conceivable.

Also, it's not that the path towards global destruction was always the right one, but it's been steered towards this direction for a long time (since the time skip at least) and since Eren's attack on Marley, there's almost certainly no other choice between major destruction of their enemies and a self-enslaving/genocidal attempt at peace at the 11th hour.

It would take some deus ex machina stuff to change the extremely cold hearts of this Titan world's denizens, which going by the spine monster thing that created titans, is a possibility.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



I'm glad the nuances and realism's being totally consistent. drat, it feels like there'll be a lot more to the story than I expected though. Great stuff.

Their conflict over Eren's decision is good. Though it looks like they'll find a way to avert total destruction before the end. I doubt Armin/Mikasa will do it at Eren's expense though. My guess is they might find a way to get through to him and find a more peaceful solution which will probably include huge self sacrifice on his part.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



SpazmasterX posted:

Confused why the Titans inside the walls are still attacking people instead of changing back or following the colossal titans. Shouldn't Eren have control over them? Also still really loving hate Gabi as a character because she's being set up as someone important and seems Mary Sue-ish in capabilities for a child. Doubt it will happen, but seeing her fail or forcibly transformed into a basic Titan will be satisfying. Guess it depends on what way the story will end. And great that Annie exists again, but wtf is she gonna be able to do? I don't recall her Titan having any sort of ability to deal with the situation at hand, and she's not any more strategically capable than Armin.

My take was that he was only directly accounting for the Colossals and not the randos that Zeke turned right before he got his head blown up. Eren has godlike powers but it appears he's not literally omnipotent.

Annie doesn't necessarily have to do anything with her powers. She was a character of interest before with a personal relationship with Eren. This mangas done a good job so far of not forcing every single character to have momentous roles in the story, perhaps she'll simply be more flavor to make the story interesting rather than a game changer.

For all we know Eren may still have a soft spot for her and try to hold off from genociding her family.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



morcant posted:

Considering the first person we focus on in the chapter is Annie's father, who she promised to get back to whatever the cost, I'd say she still has a part to play in the things to come. Now to wait a month for more.

I should clarify, I'm sure she'll have a story arc play out, but it doesn't necessitate her having some shonen style showdown with Eren like the poster I was responding to was implying. There's a lot of characters with strong feelings and emotions right now, so it's hard to predict whether she's going to be more important than any of them or another character for us readers to feel for as this poo poo goes down. Either way, I'm sure a large segment of readers would've been mad if she was never addressed before the story ended.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



Raxivace posted:

Yeah I’ve really come around on Gabi.

I really don’t think she’ll be the next Attack Titan as much as, say, a version of Eren that breaks free from eternal desire of revenge and such. She might be heroic, even.

I think something along these lines will happen. Eren's redemption will manifest through her?

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



Conspiratiorist posted:

That's a really inaccurate interpretation of Gabi.

Or of Eren, rather.

Fair. I think it's likely if she had all of his current powers, Paradis would be wiped off the Earth yesterday.

I think it's hard to say whether Eren's truly acting out of hate or out of the most extreme, sociopathic form of pragmatism possible to end all external prejudice against his people. In a lot of ways, it looks like he's divorced himself from a lot of emotions and is sacrificing his humanity more for the sake of his people than for the hatred of everyone else. Of course, this could also be a very generous interpretation.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



Squidster posted:

Watchmen was not centrally about race. It didn't have the unfortunate ghetto armbands imagery. Watchmen's ending, while intentionally shocking, was not literally the genocide of all non-white races.

I'm not saying that it won't have an omnicide ending, simply that this ending would be the instant fiery death of the brand.

I see what you're saying, but I think these things depend on the execution. If done well with something to reflect and discuss, it could launch the series into an all-timer status like Evangelion.

Like if he goes through with it, and they show the emotional impact and anguish it causes even his surviving friends, then it could go down as a memorably cynical allegory about the human condition. The series already is one to a large extent, so I have faith the author will do a good job of whatever conclusion he wants.

Keep in mind his series started as a nightmarish post apocalyptic land where it was implied humanity was already wiped out outside of the walls by monstrous Titans.

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iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



Conspiratiorist posted:

It's not hard to say at all.

For the past two years, almost every single scene featuring Eren has involved either him explicitly stating he's not motivated by vengeance, and in fact has even to what extent is possible forgiven those that have personally wronged him by way of understanding their circumstances (ie Reiner), or him being sad and disappointed that things keep playing out the way he's seen in his visions of the future, or him being angry (at himself, at others, at the world) for being unable to find a way to protect those dear to him that doesn't involve the mass murder of innocents.

While you're probably right, teenagers especially are not exactly known for being completely honest and in control with their emotions and motivations.

I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that he gets deferred by a Good Will Hunting style hug and plea for mercy from someone like Annie.

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