|
Sooo...I got bored and decided to watch this poo poo on a whim these last couple of weeks. I've caught up to the manga after finishing S2 and I wasn't really expecting to like it as much as I did. I went into AoT pretty unspoiled, the only things I've heard were "S1 is good then it gets bad" and "it has weird nationalistic overtones", which made me think I was gonna have a fun time until S2 hit and then drop it like a sack of potatoes when things got weird. Thankfully I never really got skeeved out by the politics and the story remained compelling enough that I just kept watching/reading. From your conversations pre-basement, I would say AoT benefits a lot from binge-reading, since you don't get a full month of waiting between a couple of setup chapters and the one that moves the plot forward. Plus it makes some of the twists harder to predict. For instance, I didn't have enough time between seeing the Female Titan's face and getting the Annie reveal to go "huh, this thing sure looks like someone, hmm". I did suspect Reiner being a Titan after that, however, just from his looks. I've read that they shifted some stuff around in the anime, but it was a lot easier to see Reiner being the Armored Titan in S2 with the amount of hints they threw around. S2 ED is preeeeeeeeetty spoileriffic when you know the context, huh? I thought it had some creepy vibes and kinda half-guessed the origin of Titan powers from its imagery (I figured it was cannibalism, turns out that's just how you get the Big Titan Boy powers), but I was expecting it to be how humanity doomed itself, not this ethnical conflict where the losing side got ghettoized and weaponized. Again, I binged thru the series and didn't try to guess what was gonna happen, but I think the anime did a good job hinting at stuff without outright revealing its hand. And just so you have a clean perspective on the "AoT is kinda fascist" debate, I think both sides looked like terrible places to be, with the Walled City junta being less of a mess if only because we've been only following the hosed-up foot soldiers. I don't get the GATE thing of "armies are good, let them do their poo poo" and every single soldier seems to die a pathetic death when it comes down to it, there's no sense of glory there. The ex-Military Police dude that got headshotted by the Beast Titan during the suicide charge exemplified that. War sucks, armies suck.
|
#
¿
Sep 2, 2017 03:40
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ Apr 19, 2024 16:32 |
|
|
MonsterEnvy posted:I don't even agree with this and feel like a lot of people are reaching. That's just me talking about what I heard about the series before watching it, I didn't know if it was true or not. I know people have discussed this a ton before so I don't wanna open that particular can of worms, but I figured my point of view as someone that came into it expecting some GATE poo poo would have some value.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 2, 2017 04:20
|
|
|
He wanted it to be a zombie movie with giants. I think what we got was way more interesting, but hey.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 23, 2018 02:38
|
|
|
Rhaka posted:This is the strangest game of Civilization ever. Everyone is Ghandi.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 23, 2018 07:18
|
|
|
Hey, Japan talks a lot about nukes.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 23, 2018 08:06
|
|
|
HidaO-Win posted:It's interesting how the Marleyans have entirely wrought their own doom, they've taught the Paradisans how to not fear but fight Titans and even equipped them with their own Titans. It's almost as if the 4 child soldiers sent onto the island awoke a sleeping giant and filled it with a terrible resolve. I mean...c'mon, that'd be more accurate.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 16, 2018 01:35
|
|
|
Hamas would be a better comparison, yeah. I'm just saying, if you wanna make real world comparisons, the one making their own worst enemies is the USA. But of course there aren't actual direct parallels or anything, it's just a for funsies commentary because this loving series is monthly and we get bored sometimes.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 16, 2018 14:45
|
|
|
Viridiant posted:I'm jewish too and boy is that a bad take. I don't know why this person is taking the villains' viewpoint as the main one, and I don't know how they read the story that they thought the Marleyans' treatment of the Eldians was seen as positive. It's an angry kid looking for more stuff to be angry about. At least it's excessive wokeness instead of the same reading but "yeah and that's why I love it", I guess.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 28, 2018 19:56
|
|
|
There's some revanchism tones in AoT but it's not like they make anyone happy. Eren is a wreck, Reiner is an even worse wreck, Gabi is already falling into that pit. That's mostly why I can't agree with a fascist or imperialistic reading of AoT, war is always fuckin' miserable even if you're on the perceived "right side".
|
|
#
¿
Apr 30, 2018 01:03
|
|
|
Fister Roboto posted:Maybe you shouldn't make things up to feel superior about. Dude, it's just that you came very close to saying "actually, maybe the SJWs are the true fascists". There's a difference between stated mission and reality, and you seem to be mistaking one for the other in that post. I think it's kinda unarguable that Paradis Island is a shithole and the Eldians are legit hosed.
|
|
#
¿
May 2, 2018 22:25
|
|
|
logikv9 posted:no Nazi no Nazi you're the Nazi Sasha Nazi... ...that bullet coming. 
|
|
#
¿
Jun 11, 2018 18:25
|
|
|
If you wanna read Paradis as Japan you probably have to read it as Japan circa Meiji Restoration, except they were a legit powerhouse before they went into isolation. Hell, it's easier to call Paradis a neutered 1920's Germany then.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 17, 2019 01:42
|
|
|
We still on that old poo poo, huh.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 25, 2019 15:46
|
|
|
Elias_Maluco posted:I need to reread this poo poo ASAP, Im understanding like 40% of whats happening now I think the Mangastream translations don't help much in that regard. I'm also quite confused.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 7, 2019 21:05
|
|
|
Schwarzwald posted:A lot of y'all seem to be figuring that they'll be some kind of big twist coming up, but I don't really know. AoT never had big twists before, that's true. 
|
|
#
¿
Mar 7, 2019 22:18
|
|
|
I think that Gabi and Reiner are collaborators but they're also very much victims of the system. They grew up brainwashed by Marley, equating success as a soldier to the only thing that made them worthwhile as human beings. I feel like any sympathy elicited by the characters is also correlated to this, they're not coming from a place of comfort and deciding "hey i wanna work for Marley for fun and profit". I also don't think they're fully sympathetic. They're humanized - AoT actually has some pretty decent character writing - but Gabi fuckin' killed Sasha and continues to side with Marley to this day. Same poo poo goes for Reiner. There's enough leeway for you to dislike those characters because they're still collaborators, you just kinda know it's not a clear-cut situation. I don't think that's a bad thing.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 14, 2019 20:45
|
|
|
I'd rather try and discern if or what Isayama was trying to parallel with some of AoT's symbolism after the story has concluded, because without knowing how Eren is gonna act to "end everything", it's hard to really be confident in any readings. Especially since the imagery is a bit all over the place and all.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 6, 2019 19:47
|
|
|
I believe you're probably right when it comes to using imagery without considering wider implications. Let's also consider that the "Jewish people" have Norse mythology AND visuals tied to them (King Dipshit wearing a "Viking" helmet, sup), and Marley is kinda sorta...Roman?
|
|
#
¿
Oct 6, 2019 20:07
|
|
|
Eeehh, is it "both sidesism" tho? I think some of the things that are pretty clearly portrayed by the last few chapters are that the Children of Ymir are not to blame for what Eldia has done, their persecution by Marley is NOT justified and that Eren doesn't buy into either "peaceful genocide" or Ymir supremacy. IMHO, any reading that says the subtext implies the opposite of any of those things is completely ignoring the text, and isn't really worth engaging anyway. edit: typed fast, wrote bad Dias fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Oct 6, 2019 |
|
#
¿
Oct 6, 2019 20:23
|
|
|
thiiiiiiiis might be a bit too much, dude I understand the thread is a bit...sore about the neverending "is AoT fascist/nazist" discourse, but I don't think it's a condemnation of the series to acknowledge, now that we're in the endgame, that its use of imagery is all over the place and not super well thought out - unless some last-minute reveal ties it all up or fucks it all up, of course.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 6, 2019 21:09
|
|
|
So, I think this is where poo poo's getting mixed up. Isayama intentionally used WW2 ghetto imagery for a very specific purpose: displaying the Marley Eldians as an otherized, segregated ethnicity. I think we can all agree with that, no one is saying otherwise. Now, the issue with using real-life imagery is that quite often it's used when you're making allegories in storytelling, and we kinda default to reading them as such. Thing is, I don't think the Marley Eldians work as an allegory for Jews because...they weren't supposed to be an allegory at all. Isayama wanted to evoke otherization and used the most famous symbol of otherization in modern history, but the text doesn't support "Eldians are Jews" both from an anti-Semitic or a sympathetic point of view. However, from a semiotic perspective, there are still connotations you can't run from when you use those symbols and attach them to a different people, one that's portrayed as having a past as oppressors and rulers instead of exiles and runaways. Does that mean Isayama intended that reading? Again, I don't believe it's an allegory, so no, but it's still there. Even if you say it's a difference in culture, those symbols pertain to a Western reality - it's not a manji being used in a Buddhist context, for instance. I'd say the historical/religious imagery in AoT is not well-crafted overall, it's even used pretty haphazardly. That, I feel, is a valid criticism because it leads to weird connotations. I think it's interesting to discuss this because it goes beyond "is Isayama/AoT fascist" but I'm fine dropping it after this post.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 6, 2019 23:06
|
|
|
Gantolandon posted:Given that Hange's gender is ambiguous out in manga, it's perfectly acceptable to use "she". I used "they", because I frequently talk to people who are very passionate about LGBT+ issues and would most likely correct me if they only knew what this amine is about. Wait, you mean to tell me Odin is enby? I mean, sure, Gods and poo poo, but huh.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 20, 2019 18:22
|
|
|
That's what happens when you pretend everything is fine to keep normalcy going. At least it's an extra month to go at one of the climactic chapters.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 16, 2020 13:35
|
|
|
You know, last time this came up on the forums, using the example of Pixis being modeled after a Russo-Japanese War general as a smoking gun for AoT being nationalist propaganda, I actually did some research on Akiyama Yoshifuru (the general in question) and how he's seen in Japanese media, and I found some interesting context. So, dude was kinda an rear end in a top hat since he was a big name during the Japanese occupation of Korea, and that was a terrible period in Japan's history. However, it seems like he's been pretty lionized like a lot of big names in American history, and there's a novel called Saka no Ue no Kumo that tells his story thru a pretty positive lens. That would be whatever, except there was a NHK TV series adaptation of that novel that aired from 2009 to 2011...which fits perfectly with the introduction of Dot Pixis in the manga. It really feels like Isayama thought "huh, this guy looks cool, maybe I can base this pragmatic but humble general on him". After retiring, Akiyama refused promotion to Field Marshal and just became a small town school teacher, and this seems to be the main reason why Isayama was attracted to the guy as a reference point, according to the...well, no translations of that blog post. There are literally no decent translations of that poo poo, everyone is going by Google Translate. If anyone speaks Japanese and wants to actually translate poo poo, that would be dope. So it really feels more like a lionization of "ol' time" noble warrior-generals akin to what Americans do when it comes to their Founding Fathers rather than an obssession with Japan's imperialistic past.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 2, 2020 05:55
|
|
|
Play Guren no Yumiya as most people if not everyone in the main cast dies ignominious deaths at the hands of the Titans. I mean, it'd kinda work. 
|
|
#
¿
Dec 29, 2020 07:58
|
|
|
I just think those takes are exhausting because they reek of trying to prove a "foregone conclusion" right. Also I think people mix up allegories with imagery - Isayama used loaded imagery when depicting the Eldians but they're not an allegory for Jewish people, their history is different, the power balance is different, how they fit in the Marleyean society is different... It doesn't help that they can't pick a line of criticism. Is it bad because it supports Japanese nationalism, because it depicts "Jews" as deserving their oppression, because the heroes are part of a military outfit? The goalposts keep moving because it's not like these lines are compatible with each other, especially if you wanna seriously argue it's all allegories all around. edit: oh, also, I do agree that a good chunk of criticism kinda ignores how Japanese media uses imagery, especially Western imagery, in favor of applying this very USA-centric formalist lens. Dias fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Mar 3, 2021 |
|
#
¿
Mar 3, 2021 00:58
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:I just realized what this ending really is. amazing
|
|
#
¿
Mar 6, 2021 02:02
|
|
|
Oh God, That Take on the series is starting to show up in Portuguese on Twitter now, please kill me. Three days until it's over, at least.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 7, 2021 02:20
|
|
|
kidcoelacanth posted:the final spread is a colossal titan with a huge fuckin boner new thread title
|
|
#
¿
Apr 7, 2021 14:56
|
|
|
It's mediocre but frankly, this is more of an epilogue than the actual ending, so it's whatever, not really a GoT-level botch.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 8, 2021 02:02
|
|
|
While I don't think the "AoT is fash" reading holds even now that it ended, Isayama wrote the reactions to Eren's story a BIT too sympathetic to my taste. Like, he was always more broken than evil, Titan Hitler is a stretch, but c'mon, dude almost extinguished humanity, y'all shouldn't remember him so fondly
|
|
#
¿
Apr 8, 2021 02:32
|
|
|
Marluxia posted:Eren said he was giving Connie his mom back and the titans in that area turned back into humans, does that mean the colossal titans in the middle of the ocean just turned back into people and they're now drowning in the middle of the ocean Well, he did kill 80% of humanity...
|
|
#
¿
Apr 8, 2021 02:50
|
|
|
Ibram Gaunt posted:Nothing about the ending is fascist, just loving stupid. Pretty much, but I've seen goons misread the ending as "Paradis and the Eldians are in the right", so...
|
|
#
¿
Apr 11, 2021 04:51
|
|
|
Ccs posted:I forgot Ronan was Kree. Man, it was weird that most of the Kree have blue skin but then the few important characters in Captain Marvel just look like normal humans. I imagine it would be more of a Devilman ending, Armin and Mikasa probably die trying to stop Eren, so he's left alone and in despair.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 20, 2021 18:47
|
|
|
DamnitGannet posted:Its pretty easy for fascists to consume media on a very surface level and find things in it that supports their fascist ideals. Im not a my little pony fan but we got a lot of fascists out of that fandom and I dont think the ponies were advocating genocide in the series. I have also seen a lot of chuds who think its always sunny is pro-right wing because the characters own the libs. It's also pretty easy to, instead of analyzing a piece of problematic media as a whole and understanding why you think the message is muddled or how people might enjoy it without it being a reflection of their Darkest Desires (or even that they might disagree with it or think it faltered at points), just say Thing is For Fascists/Creeps because you can never lose your argument since automatically the other person is defending a Thing For Fascists/Creeps.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 13, 2021 22:06
|
|
|
Super Rad posted:I've been defending AoT ever since the fascist accusations emerged but those last chapters were so bad I don't even know what to think anymore. It still doesn't hold to a pro-fascism reading, it just reads like Isayama had enough of writing it and just had the things he planned on happen happen without trying to address the moral consequences of them or how its characters would react to it past a very superficial level. The last few chapters feel like a bad anime adaptation that rushed everything up and made the story incongruent within itself. You can't be that careless when you're dealing with a topic like GENOCIDE and trying to make a point about it. Isayama's true crime is sloppiness, really. Everything else is psychoanalysis and trying to prove 100% the series was Always Bad.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 14, 2021 22:11
|
|
|
oh no did this get shared in a discord i hate when this happens I said it before, it's impossible to argue with people who have decided AoT is fascist because if you don't think it is, they already decided for you you either misunderstood or are a fascist yourself. I just hope they're not into Star Wars, Naruto, anything Marvel or DC really, Robocop, Starship Troopers, Squid Game ah you get it it's not worth doing this again poo poo's so repetitive even the avatars of the people doing it look alike lol lets just relitigate how poo poo the ending was
|
|
#
¿
Nov 17, 2021 18:44
|
|
|
there's some poetic irony in the united states lacking self-awareness while everyone else just kinda goes "oh there they go again"
|
|
#
¿
Nov 17, 2021 22:19
|
|
|
Tenkaris posted:Yeah everyones initial reaction of that exchange was based on the really dodgy translations that hit the web first. For some reason even though it was cleared up and corrected within days, thanks for committing genocide for us was already a solidified meme there's some sort of poetic irony in the united states getting really into fake news and twitter discourse
|
|
#
¿
Nov 17, 2021 23:15
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ Apr 19, 2024 16:32 |
|
|
serious gaylord posted:This isn't D&D, but more importantly this is like the 527th time someones come stomping in with a steaming hot take after reading the polygon article and a few tweets. There's literally an example of it on this very page which is literally disproved 2 posts later but it will never, ever stop. I just wanna add something very important: Gosar sounds and reads very close to the Brazilian Portuguese verb "to cum"
|
|
#
¿
Nov 17, 2021 23:50
|
|