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Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Gotta say I've always been perplexed by the popularity of the manga, since the drawings are...ehhh. Messy inking and inconsistent anatomy, and the author seems to be able to draw the expression "shocked" and not much else.

The anime though definitely has much better draftsmanship going for it, and the addition of that and nicely choreographed fight scenes is helping me see the potential that the comic's story has.

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Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




I'm catching up on this series and they say that the walls are made of millions of titans. Where did they get all those titans? How many millions got exiled to the Island and then willfully transformed to be made into walls? Seems a bit odd.

Also odd how a declaration to renounce war can be passed down through blood.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




I feel like this guy is maybe missing the point of the series a bit but I canít remember enough of the plot and specifics to point out why.
Now the meme that AoT is anti Semitic is being shared all over twitter

https://mobile.twitter.com/Iron_Spike/status/1094821561050324993

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Good links, that review blog is interesting.

The issue with the series, if it really is trying to make Eren out to be the bad guy, is his traits that are very similar to a shonen hero means itís difficult to think he could be bad. We never really judge whether a Naruto or Luffy is immoral, itís always kinda assumed theyíre the hero. So if that hero really is gonna end up as a villain then itís gonna be whiplash for a ton of readers. Many probably wonít even accept it and will just condone whatever Eren does unless thereís something really explicit in the narration to point out heís the bad guy.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




I also think itís a bit dangerous to keep drawing comparisons between fiction and reality. The author has clearly taken inspiration from both Japanese history and the plight of Jewish people and mashed it up a bit. But itís more interesting to judge the actions of these characters in their environment instead of trying to figure if the work is some ploy to further nationalistic ambitions in the real world, or has a direct analogue, etc.

This gets into issues of whether authorial intent even matters, etc.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Some people I follow on twitter have really bought into the whole AoT is fascist idea. One of them also thought Game of Thrones ended well though so they might just have terrible taste.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




So I posted on facebook that I was excited the anime is starting up again in like 5 days. Got dogpiled about supporting fascist media. To be honest, I've forgotten, is this series overtly nationalistic and fascistic or is Isayama doing a "Starship Troopers by Verehoeven" subversion of fascist imagery/ideology?

I'll prob still watch it even so cause pretty fights.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




I finished all the available manga last week but now watching this episode, Eren and Zeke are in the same room together in the airship, why donít they activate the coordinate and do their plan now? Whatís the reason for waiting?

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Whew, I was worried I was gonna come into this thread after finishing the final chapter and find a bunch of people praising it.

I honestly haven't seen a series about oppressed people gently caress up its ending so badly since The Broken Earth. For one, it's incredibly fraught to make a story about oppressed people with superpowers. The lengths AoT goes to justify how the Eldians are oppressed (a secret cabal with the Tyburs plus memory manipulation from the King) is convoluted, but it functions. The bigger danger with these types of stories is making your oppressed wizards actually a huge threat to normal humans. Bigots often claim that whichever group they hate is inherently dangerous. When you make such threats real, you at least partly justify the actions taken to stop them. Itís more likely that the story will end up validating people who want to believe that oppression happens for a legitimate reason.

Throughout AoT I was hoping it would pull off an ending good enough to justify the awkward trope of oppressed wizards. It... did not. It actually says that it would have been in everyone else's best interest to slaughter them as quickly as possible for their own survival. Or, in an exceptionally generous reading, to try to make peace with them and then live with the awkward power dynamic of a certain group having superpowers. Eventually I suppose technological advances would have made up for the power differential, but in the AoT world as it stands, Titans were always the biggest edge in military force.

Ccs fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Apr 8, 2021

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Itís funny that in about a year weíll be able to witness this dynamic play out again in the anime thread.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




I did laugh when Falco tried to hug Gabi and she judo flipped him.

Author definitely seemed to lose sight of the themes in the series, albeit they were already muddled by giving the oppressed group deadly magic powers. The bit about life always multiplying and breaking free of that and other stuff, it just felt like a grab bag of pseudo philosophy that probably reflected a lot of disparate thoughts that occurred to him while working on the series but never coalesced into an engaging thematic whole.

Which is sad because at the point the AoT anime is at it still looks like it could stick the landing. Now we know it wonít.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




The United States posted:




Dumb Armin should have read his briefings


This is incredibly funny, thank you.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Bread Set Jettison posted:

This is the first time Ive wanted an anime only ending

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




ARMIN MUST CONDEMN

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Maybe itís a good thing that Berserk will never end...

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




MechaX posted:

You know, re-reading some of the pages of the official translation here, uh... I am not entirely convinced that Eren really made an informed decision here either with all this Rumbling poo poo. Yeah he says he would have done it anyway, but having the Founding Titan discombobulate your mind so much where you see the past, present, and future simultaneously doesn't sound like someone was playing with a full deck upstairs. Like, at all.


[Berserk Spoilers]: "Thank you Griffith, you became a mass murderer for our sake..."

Hahahahaha

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




WEP hasnít officially ended yet. I stopped watching after episode 8 so I can binge the rest but it sounds as if they needed and emergency episode in June to conclude things and even then people doubt it could work in such a small amount of time.

Back on topic there are so so many Titans that appear in the end of this series. Is mappa gonna have to cg them all? Thatís such a different scale of workload compared to this season where there was only like 5-6 titans to cg.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Itís a pity because I didnít really enjoy AoT too much until the political stuff started happening in season 3. The first section was more a zombie story with giants instead of the undead, and without the fear of contagion. Then the events covered in season 4 ramped things up even more, suggesting a really good message about the cycle of violence. Granted, it was never going to pull off all the themes it wanted. Saying oppression is bad and showing how the Eldians are oppressed makes us sympathize with them, but it doesnít square with how/why oppression actually happens because it gives the Eldians deadly magical powers. But it does make an interesting commentary on how oppressed groups are brainwashed to fight for their oppressors and hate themselves.

But the Rumbling really bungled things. Eren uses the power that everyone feared his ethnic group for to carry out mass genocide and then gets, if not completely vindicated, at least told that it was sort of necessary for Eldian survival and to get rid of their ďcurseĒ? What conclusions are we meant to draw from this? What does it tell us about the reason people are oppressed? Is the curse of the titans meant to symbolize anything? The themes just fall apart.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




All the fans really need to do is write a new final chapter and commission a doujinshi artist with a good handle on Isayama's stlye to illustrate it.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




DaveKap posted:

AoT's ending makes me go "haha okay sure" and shrug. I wish Mr. Robot's ending could've made me feel that way.

Yeah itís weird I feel like I should be furious about the way it ended considering how much I enjoyed the recent 4th season. With bad anime you can usually check out the manga for the better version but here the source material has hosed up! But instead Iím like ďhaha, well that was badĒ and being entertained by people talking about how badly it faceplanted.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




So many more people watch the anime than read the manga so it's going to be interesting the hysterics that occur when the anime reaches...this end.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




yronic heroism posted:

Like no one at the end of Watchmen tells Ozymandias ďthank you for becoming a mass murdererĒ ... I mean, címon.

Yeah. This series really needs a Rorschach to provide a counterpoint to Eren's whole deal. Like at the end Eren is Ozymandias and Dr. Manhattan in one, but there's nobody to coherently argue against his actions at the end. He dies, but that's not really a proper refutation.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Boofy posted:

i dont want to monday morning quarterback things but if i was there i would have just dug a big hole in front of all the colossal titans.

Gotta have a Dig Titan for that.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Thereís evidence Isayama decided to change the ending to be more blockbuster-y back in 2017. I can hardly remember anything about the antagonist of Guardians of the Galaxy, he was one of those marvel villains like the Thor Dark World big bad that are pretty forgettable, so it doesnít seem so wise to turn Eren into that.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




I forgot Ronan was Kree. Man, it was weird that most of the Kree have blue skin but then the few important characters in Captain Marvel just look like normal humans.

I don't really know what a Mist-esque ending would entail in terms of AoT. Probably more dead main characters.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




I was generally pleased with the recent Devilman ending so I'd be okay with that.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




I don't think AoT is fascist but its always been thematically confused. You can't introduce a race of oppressed people with super powers and not step into that territory, especially when the oppressed race then actually proves that they're incredibly dangerous by, say, eliminating 80% of humanity.

Like the story doesn't want to say that there is a justification for oppressing or wiping out this race. It also doesn't want to say that Eldians are ubermeches that are being kept down by weaker people and so need to create their own Galt's Gulch on Paradis away from the rest of humanity. It does want to have a bunch of cool fights where people turn into giant monsters though, while at the same time commenting on how this power might inflame cycles of violence and then it inadvertently steps in the path of people who will read is as furthering one of the former themes.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




The ending is a bit similar to GoT in that it feels rushed to get to a certain point that might have made more sense if there was a bit more space to play with. It feels like the creator(s) just get tired out and want to end their series so they can enjoy their wealth even though editorial/the network would be fine with things continuing a bit longer.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




I can understand their discomfort, but I don't think the nationality of the creator should play that big a difference in how people view the work. There are also Jewish cartoonists like Eli Valley who have been branded self-hating jews because their work covers controversial topics.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Cant oppress anybody if thereís no one left to oppress. - Eren Yeager

If Isayama was really burned out by the end of the series the ending sort of mirrors his mindset of ďletís just get this over with in the messiest way possibleĒ

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




ďHi, Iím Eren Yeager. Yíknow, sometimes I get home from a hard days works killing 80% of the planet and really need a good meal to keep my head on my shoulders. Thatís when I reach for Myojo Food's Charumera. Comes packed with yams that helps me stave off existential anguish at the thought of millions crushed beneath my feet. Try Myojo Food's Charumera today.Ē

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2021-04-22/attack-on-titan-commemorates-manga-conclusion-with-ramen-collaboration/.171971

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




If the editors really forced a change to that extent, they suck. Heck, the passion generated by Eren and Mikasa not ending up together might have been good for sales, people buying merch of the two to say screw you to the actual ending, the way many fans of Avatar got more involved in the series out of their frustration that Zuko and Katara didn't end up together.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011





lol theyíre still saying that the general who died in 1930 served in WW2.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




I donít think they exist other than the overall theme of ďwar brutalizes us all buy especially our children.Ē Which is a pretty strong theme but kind of undone by the ending in which doing a massive amount of violence and crushing a lot of children seems to have generally worked out for the characters we care about.

Itís a very thematically confused series. If these articles could actually engage with the material and stop repeating badly researched tripe then maybe they could make some interesting points.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011





Me trying to get the Covid vaccine any way I can

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Conspiratiorist posted:

He posits that fascism is bad and shows various kinds of reasons of why nevertheless people turn to it.

The series never looks to offer concrete solutions, and that's fine - it's a war story published in a monthly manga magazine, not a treatise on how to achieve world peace.

It's a real shame if the series has so little to say that we have to resort to "the medium itself is incapable of positing an alternative to fascism to resolve big problems."

Starship Troopers the film was great because it was an over the top satirical take on fascism, showing how the characters walk gleefully walk into the meat grinder and how absolutely insane that is. Starship Troopers the book is an earnest argument about how a militarized society would somehow uphold the dignity of humanity.

AoT ends up at some kind of crossroads between the two. It's awful that the characters had to throw themselves into the meat grinder, but only by doing so could they achieve a semblance of peace, and now they'll try to use diplomacy despite it failing before because it would be nice to avoid further loss of life. But diplomacy has never really worked out in the series before so it doesn't do a great job of convincing the audience that it'll work this time.

I thought the theme of this manga was going to be about freedom, about finally breaking the cycle. That's what the original final page seemed to suggest, with the "you are free." But what we actually got is just freedom from the conceit of the Titans, and not freedom from anything the Titans represented symbolically.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Gantolandon posted:

How is it fair to hold an author of a shonen manga to such a ridiculously high standard?

That's what happens when the shonen manga tries to grapple with the big issues. We're gonna hold it to the standard of work that tries to grapple with the big issues.

If it didn't want to grapple with the big issues it should have stayed as a "there are zombies but they're big and we gotta learn how to stab them better". Maybe have monkey trouble be an Aizen-esque comical supervillain, or have the titans orchestrated by the royal family to keep the people scared and easily manipulated and not because it's the fallout from cycles of imperialism and oppression and blood magic, etc.

Instead the manga went more interesting places. It swung big and missed.

Ccs fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Apr 26, 2021

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




YF-23 posted:

This is in part a consequence of the way the relationship between the Titans and the Eldians was written, and part of the reason why, even though the basement reveal was loving genius, I believe it wrecked the story going forward. Isayama wrote himself into a corner in which he had to world-build around a nonsensical racial dynamic. All the good parts of the story from then onward have to write themselves around the existence of an extremely powerful slave warrior caste that is both treated as subhuman with no chance for redemption (even for, as we are repeatedly shown, the titan warriors) and also completely docile.

Yeah this is one of the main problems with any fantasy media that has super powered oppressed people. I'm kind of wondering how people in this thread would respond to the series The Broken Earth which has a similar dynamic and similar huge amounts of loss of life and environmental effects. All three books in the trilogy won Hugo awards though so people generally seem happy with the ending. Might be worth checking out if you want an idea of how AoT could have handled its complicated subjects in a more crowd pleasing way.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




McConnell posted:

I suppose I'll ask this: do people in this thread think Attack on Titan has a happy ending?

It's more like I'm witnessing something horrifying while a guy shouts "And then they lived happily ever after! Look at all those characters you like still alive! You'll buy the merch, won't you? Isn't it great that Annie and Armin get to be together? Isn't Mikasa cool? Won't you buy some merch?"

This is the best way I can sum up the experience of reading the final chapter.

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Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Why didnít anyone tell me there was a Jean version of the opening?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fqyAXOdWUsA

If he was the main character none of this wouldíve happened.

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