Attack on Titan - Debasement Yourself and Face Bloodshed

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > VEGETA > Attack on Titan - Debasement Yourself and Face Bloodshed

this allusion meant: Apr 9, 2006

It may have just been the translation, but I got the distinct impression that Historia and Connie and the others were already thoroughly debriefed at some point between returning to the wall and the discussion with Irwin et al., and that they'd drawn as-yet-undisclosed conclusions and plans from it, which presumably gave them something to work on with more potential value than keeping either locked up could. I also have the impression that the wall religion is more politically powerful than the scouts, but that's less specific and more of my general feel of the story universe.

# ¿ Nov 10, 2013 20:28

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 21:07

this allusion meant: Apr 9, 2006

You'd think she'd like harden out some eye protection after the earlier fight.

# ¿ Nov 11, 2013 18:58

this allusion meant: Apr 9, 2006

Phobophilia posted:

Surprisingly enough, my favourite Levi scene was extremely early on, where he comforts that dying man despite being completely grossed out his blood. He understands that his own neuroses mean nothing next the lives of his comrades. He could have touched the man on his shoulder and had perhaps the same effect (and Petra was going to worship the ground he walked on no matter what), but he chose to grab the man's hand anyway and look him directly in the eye and tell him that his sacrifice mattered.

Now I love the fact that his personality has infected Eren and turned him into as much of a neat freak. Without the OCD of course.

People's personalities infecting one another really makes up for some of the relatively flat motivations they start with. What happened to Reiner after being exposed to Eren for too long is of course the funniest.

# ¿ Nov 12, 2013 05:39

this allusion meant: Apr 9, 2006

Eh, I think it's pretty clearly meant to be about the necessity of fighting and heroism of sacrifice. The pain of loss is sort of given a couple of panels and then they move onto the next bit pretty quickly. It's a bad situation, so bad things happen, but it's quite consistently implied that things would be worse if not for the willingness of the human weapons to throw themselves into the jaws of death. The themes don't really vary much. You can't rely on shounen spirit alone, but with good planning and the will to carry things through, humanity can carve out small victories against overwhelming threats.

What I'm curious about are the motives of the faction that plots against the wall. The agents in the 104th seem remorseful about the killing, but don't seem to doubt the necessity of their actions. So presumably there actually is some kind of "good" reason to murder all those people, that can convince a person with Reiner's character. That's a fascinating question to ponder--and it's tied in with a number of other questions in addition to the more well-known ones (what are the titans, etc.), about what the society in the walls actually is, and how they got there.

# ¿ Nov 22, 2013 16:18

this allusion meant: Apr 9, 2006

Nelson Mandingo posted:

I think "the heroism of sacrifice" is something of a minor deconstruction though. Many times throughout the manga, a character will sacrifice themselves to save others, but it's pointed out right before their miserable and horrible end that they are ultimately afraid to die. The only character I can think of that was straight up defiant to the end was a random scout who boasted that humans would kill the titans, as he was being devoured. Even a veteran like Mike is turned into a screaming and sobbing mess as he's dying.

I read that as being part of the thing where humans are weak. The story tries to emphasize that one a lot as well. There's only a few strengths, and few people have more than a few kinds, but together they're sort of making it work. I don't think a silly concept of heroism where you put on a brave face as you die is necessarily part of upholding sacrifice as a value.

quote:

My take on Reiner is his faction raised all three of the infiltrators to see the humans in the wall as some irredeemably evil people ("Annie you need to hate the world"), and when they became friends with the 104th they all realized the extent of their crimes. I think when Annie was apologizing to the regurgitated corpses, that was her big reality check.

That's just my take on it- but I think you're right, because for some reason there is a "need" to keep the titans a secret. Pastor Nick implied it's more important to keep the secret than to save humanity in his conversation with Zoe.

This doesn't fit well with my impressions but I shouldn't be posting right now so I don't think it's a good idea to flesh out my thoughts, I'll get back to it.

# ¿ Nov 22, 2013 21:38

this allusion meant: Apr 9, 2006

Nelson Mandingo posted:

My take on Reiner is his faction raised all three of the infiltrators to see the humans in the wall as some irredeemably evil people ("Annie you need to hate the world"), and when they became friends with the 104th they all realized the extent of their crimes. I think when Annie was apologizing to the regurgitated corpses, that was her big reality check.

Why keep doing it, then? Irrespective of any changes in how they viewed the people inside, they seemed to accept the necessity of continuing to carry out their plans. On Annie's part, she seems to be afraid to step out of the role she has been assigned, or something to that effect--that's what normal people do, is to keep their heads down, obey power, and go along with the incentives they're supposed to pay attention to. For the others, though, they seem to believe, even in the later chapters, that there is a great necessity to what they are doing, and that letting Eren hold onto that power is disastrous.

In any case, I think it's pretty clear there's something deeply messed up going on inside the walls. The relationship between the wall religion and the society's power structure, and between the religion and the titans, are both hinted at in dark overtones. There could very well be some reason to destroy them. Possibly the walls are actually there to provide a huge number of human shields protecting the forces in the center from enemies who were deterred by them until it was too late to keep putting it off?

visceril posted:

See that right there is why I'm pretty sure SnK is not a fascist story. We're already more than halfway through the story, and the tone is very clearly "war is hell" and that in the face of death people break down. We would've seen a lot more romanticism and typical shonen "great sacrifice" stuff if it was fascisistic.

Well I'm really not sure how meaningful the discussion of "is this anime Hitler and how should I feel about that" that seems to crop up in about every one in three threads I read here really is. What are the specific questions being asked? Is it an allegorical, metaphorical, or typological (in the exegetic sense) retelling of the rise of some historical fascist figure or regime? I think it would be difficult to argue that. Does the story parallel fascist narratives about the world that provide a framework for their worldview? Only in relatively superficial and very incomplete ways, so far as I can tell. Does it seem to support fascist values through its characterization and setting? Well, it depends on what you count as fascist values; there are clearly good leaders and brave soldiers and cowards and traitors and all that, and you're definitely supposed to feel a certain way about them, but aren't there others in the world besides fascists and their targets? Are the rest of the world not concerned at all with survival, the cost of defeat, and the question of how to achieve security? I don't know why these values are considered fascist; I think of fascist social values as involving a sort of dismissive attitude towards approaching questions with an open mind (like the way Hanji does), a rejection of the outside world as having important things to offer besides resources (story's not too big on that either), and a fairly vicious sexism and heteronormativity (really not represented here at all).

Broadly speaking, the concept of fascism is used in mutually contradictory senses by almost every political grouping in the modern era, and moreover, they almost all seem to find it beneficial from the standpoint of propagandizing their viewpoint to be imprecise in their usage of the concept. Therefore the general picture of it that one absorbs in the west is sort of muddled and useless. It must be specified what definition and analysis of fascism one uses, and which historical phenomena are grouped within that category, before a discussion about it really becomes coherent, which, as a result of all this baggage, typically takes far longer to hash out than simply discussing the constituent properties of one's definition of fascism directly, without organizing them into a grouping that may or may not have much explanatory power on its own. So I don't make much use of the term myself, and certainly not while talking about cartoons and comics.

I do think that the story is very clearly saying that military sacrifices are an important thing that have to be made, and that the scouts are doing a good thing in being willing to face death and the terror of the titans. If we consider that a fascist value (I don't, because how the gently caress was fascism defeated if not by upholding that value), surely a softer portrayal of how humans break in battle makes it more effective at pushing that value--if we feel we are more resistant to the terror, we feel the duty to defend our weaker comrades, if we feel our vulnerability to the terror, it is intolerable to imagine that terror reaching those we treasure who are weaker still (I'm recalling Pixis addressing this directly). Similarly, the other messages, which may be considered militaristic, are built not on the idea that humans are natural warriors, but on the idea that we have to fight, even if we are weak in our flesh and weak of heart. That's considerably more effective, at least as far as reaching more typical audiences goes.

# ¿ Nov 23, 2013 02:14

this allusion meant: Apr 9, 2006

I'm not really sure what you mean. The pastoral life doesn't seem unusual as far as anime goes and the 3DMG has a pretty clear explanation and role in the story. Why does it have to correspond to a late-industrial era ideology box?

# ¿ Nov 23, 2013 02:26

this allusion meant: Apr 9, 2006

The parts that seem to aesthetically recall historically-existing European fascism to me are the colors, the names (Eren probably comes from the German word for honor and not from the Turkish name), and okay yeah almost everything about Erwin seriously what the gently caress. And I do think there's evidence there and elsewhere that the author draws influence from his interpretation of fascist history, which seems to be the sort of rose-tinted view taken by most inheritors of such legacies. Not much of what I've seen about his positions there seems to be much worse in terms of denial than what the descendants of white settlers will say about their history and while I think it's very wrong to keep pushing those narratives on a social scale, I don't see a focus on individuals who hold those views as having much point. To be sure, some people will have more reason to be put off by that, and there's nothing wrong with them. As far as relatively privileged and comfortable westerners in the mainstream of society go, though, there's targets way closer to home.

A bit of conjecture that could support a fascist reading: possibly the titans are the result of something like in the one-off--a coordinated campaign to destroy existing humanity because of the perceived flaws of its nature. Maybe the idea is to convert all humans into titans, a form in which they are near-indestructible but, due to lack of intelligence or ambition, carry out no aggression except against the old humans and on the orders of some superpower wielded by the holder of the "coordinate" and bigfoot (whatever his deal is). Here, a plot by scientific and cultural elites to transform humanity into mindless monsters, supposedly for a greater good and to protect them from their own nature, does seem to have characteristics of a racist, conspiratorial narrative typical of modern fascists.

# ¿ Nov 23, 2013 02:55

this allusion meant: Apr 9, 2006

I've read like a total of three supermechagodzilla posts I don't get why you don't like him. Seems alright.

You don't have to read my posts if you don't like to think about this kinda stuff but I'm not sure why it pains you so. This is like the second best part about anime.

# ¿ Nov 23, 2013 03:11

this allusion meant: Apr 9, 2006

Genocyber posted:

I too enjoy exploring the rich and deep symbolism in children's cartoons (or comic books)

I'm sorry for not hating fun as much as I should.

# ¿ Nov 23, 2013 03:42

this allusion meant: Apr 9, 2006

Saagonsa posted:

There's analyzing and speculating on the story, and then there's writing massive gently caress off posts about the politics of a comic book that probably don't even exist.

Well in both threads I'm mainly trying to establish why the massive strings of short posts on the subject are not really very good discussions because of their bad or ill-defined premises. If you don't like discussions about those subjects I can't really see why you would object to 1) seeing them in a concentrated, easier-to-avoid form, or 2) trying to shut down the more vacuous lines of discussion on those subjects that clutter up the thread with white noise. It's not like I'm the first one to bring up something like this in the thread.

e: I do regret cluttering threads with this sort of argument, though. Feel free to make some closing comments.

# ¿ Nov 23, 2013 04:08

this allusion meant: Apr 9, 2006

visceril posted:

Oh my initial impression was that the land inside the walls was like a big bowl with ordinary soil filled in. Now I think it's more likely that the 'bedrock' the miner encountered was one of the titan's hardened feet.

I think it's just the wall footing, not titan feet. Walls sometimes have a buried upside-down t-shape cross section and the spread-out footing helps distribute the weight and provide resistance against overturning. The walls are so massive that I don't imagine most normal overturning forces would have any real effect even over a hundred years (assuming elevation is roughly even i.e. there's nowhere the wall acts as a retaining wall), so presumably the wall footing dimensions had the design requirements of limiting settlement (from soil consolidation), and deterring people with shovels from loving with the foundations. Of course if the wall foundations are really like that, building the walls becomes a logistical challenge once again, unless the mass for the walls was transmuted in place--either the earth occupying the volume now filled by the wall foundations was removed through labor, or turned into the wall material, or displaced by the force of the wall mass expanding (that doesn't make sense mechanically, nor is it compatible with the underground being a counter against transformation, but it's the other possibility in this set). Of course if there's titans all inside the walls, I guess the labor required to dig the foundations wouldn't be prohibitive.

(I think between the anime-only thing and the fact that titan people in general don't comport with standard understanding of conservation of mass and energy this speculation is both frivolous and unlikely to yield useful results)

# ¿ Jan 16, 2014 18:35

this allusion meant: Apr 9, 2006

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

It seems that the fascist subtext is now just fascist text.

e:I mean, this chapter literally features an alliance of the military and the capitalist class to overthrow authority and to protect the latter's interests and privileges. I'm kind of disgusted.

e2: The tutor must have manipulated Eren's memories and actually inserted some into his mind, hence why he saw her from her point-of-view..

That's not really a reasonable account of what happened at all? To begin with, the Scouts and the merchant company are each very small subsets of those classes, and nowhere near a leadership position in either. The conspiracy is set off by the fact that the central authority is itself behaving lawlessly, and the "interests and privileges" involved are presented credibly as "not being dead." Military coups are not inherently fascist, though they've been a favorite means for them at times.

I mean, if you want to read that into it you can, I guess, but with these standards, pretty much any attempt by the Scouts to improve their position against the Central MPs other than leading a mob of the dispossessed from the underground could be read that way.

# ¿ Feb 6, 2014 17:28

this allusion meant: Apr 9, 2006

threeagainstfour posted:

I'm personally ready for some revelations regarding at least one or more of the central mysteries of the series.

I admire and enjoy Isayama's ability to constantly introduce new characters, plot threads, or Titan abilities that flip everything you thought you knew on its head, without feeling contrived. That said, I'm starting to get mystery fatigue and could use at least some explanation.

Hopefully this new development of the Survey Corps versus the monarchy will end up with us finding out at least a little bit of what is really happening in this world.

edit: yea, I understand that we get little tidbits every chapter. I'm ready for at least one big reveal though. The last reveal, that humans are inside the napes of titans, was more of an expected reveal than a surprise.

I suspect a huge amount of mystery will remain by the time the series ends, but maybe they'll get some credible measure of security against extinction by then. The fact that the nature and motives of all factions but one are shrouded is a huge part of what lets people read whatever kind of ideological narratives they want into the text, which is probably intentional on the part of the author. Liberals, communists, fascists, and all manner of young people with political thoughts of any sort interact with it how they want, and that's a big part of the draw. Everyone who takes such interests thinks their concerns are urgent, while everyone else is caught up in petty squabbles and some powerful threat is developing, and stories about desperate battles of incredible consequence punctuating a frustrating struggle against a society with backwards priorities excite. But if the story betrays expectations by narrowing possible interpretations in a way that appears to favor one or another narrative, part of that enjoyment collapses for large sections of the readership. The formula has worked well enough so far and I doubt Isayama thinks he has something to say that's worth throwing away huge career success for.

# ¿ Feb 6, 2014 22:31

this allusion meant: Apr 9, 2006

At least he finally managed a normal kill.

# ¿ Feb 13, 2014 04:48

this allusion meant: Apr 9, 2006

I thought Armin's suggestion was perfectly reasonable (if difficult to pull off, considering the monarchy's information controls)? Winning power struggles is important and methods of survival precede application of moral philosophy. There's little reason to believe that anyone with a serious interest in maintaining the status quo is going to simply accept the succession of a Recon Corps soldier to the throne. They're still going to have to fight and kill a lot of people. If they're lucky it'll only be people who are enemy soldiers and guilty collaborators in some sense. If they're unlucky they'll wind up killing a lot of innocents and lot of comrades and might not even succeed. Unwillingness to secure victory against enemies with no such scruples is not a virtue.

# ¿ Mar 8, 2014 07:00

this allusion meant: Apr 9, 2006

Eiba posted:

If it's a lie, then why did Grisha feed himself to Eren?

Of course, considering the extramural faction is interested in the power, we can assume that they've got a way to utilize it. Perhaps they've got a rebel branch of the Reiss family out there? All of history might be a lie, given the memory manipulation powers, so literally anything could be out there.

If Grisha knew ~secrets~ he probably learned them from outside the wall, rather than from the royalty. So it's not a stretch to think that he managed to get, perhaps, a baby or something from that group.

I dunno, that sounds kind of silly. But if the bloodline thing is true and Grisha couldn't use the power and Eren can, one of three things must also be true- Eren was adopted, Eren's mother was from a special bloodline even if Grisha wasn't, or Grisha got cucked to save humanity.

Grisha asks Eren why he wants to go outside before deciding to tell him there's something that'll interest him in the basement. His answer interests him. It's not clear what he would have done if the answer had been less interesting, or if Eren were less... Eren. Possibly he was to give the coordinate to the outsiders (I don't see many other ways to interpret the timing), and instead chose a hope for a greater future for the people inside the walls than the effects of losing the coordinate to the outsiders would have yielded. It seems highly unlikely he would have committed to feeding Eren the power if he had turned out to be uninterested in knowing the truth or carrying forth the sacrifices of those before, given how unlikely to survive or do anything interesting with it he would have been. There's something about the power that prevents most people from using it, and something about the royal line that lets them use it. Eren clearly is able to use some of the interesting parts. There are plenty of explanations for what the distinguishing characteristics that allow for Eren and the royal line to use the power, but not most people. It's difficult to read the past few chapters without drawing an impression that the old king's power and the nobility's ability to resist it are metaphors in some way for the right to rule, and that something relating to Eren's sense of purpose is what makes him a viable contender. Pretty much the most consistent theme of the story so far is that those who have the courage and vision to appreciate the value of sacrifice for the greater good of a society have the right to disobey, rebel against, and potentially rule over those who do not. If it turned out to actually affirm the necessity of rule from birthright it would be a pretty weird direction to go.

# ¿ Dec 18, 2014 07:01

this allusion meant: Apr 9, 2006

T.G. Xarbala posted:

The thing about a story that relies on character deaths to get people's attention is that, for the people who only paid attention to the story because of those deaths, it has to keep on killing people off in order to keep their attention. So either you either create a character treadmill and constantly introduce, get acquainted with, then kill off named characters (Gantz was designed to be this, also trash) or you inevitably disappoint the people who don't care and just want to see blood.

The Attack on Titan thread has been getting slower as people realize that the early gonzo anything-goes-anybody-can-die tone could only be maintained for so long before it turns into self-parody. (see: Gantz) So now we're stuck with the actual story being told, and it's bleak in a less, I want to say "dazzling" way than one would expect from the first chunk.

For what it's worth I wasn't terribly impressed with the initial chapters. To be honest my first, extremely unkind reaction to AoT was "Ooh here's another zombie apocalypse with a ~twist~ look at how impressed all of these readers are the people are [gasp!] dying! The idea of introducing a bunch of disposable characters early to inflate a death-heavy tone is completely new and original and not at all blatant sensationalist shock-schlock designed to steal your attention since you're an idiot so it must be new to you." The fact that a common refrain among people disillusioned with AoT is the lack of central character death only shows that, yes, the initial attention-grabber ploy worked, but now we're left with a chunk of audience who were misled to believe this was an edgier, more "hardcore" story than was actually going to be.

I only really started to care once the politics and the ontological mystery entered the forefront and before then it was mostly morbid curiosity that kept me reading, though not regularly. The fact that the political arc seems to be wrapping itself up means that what's really left is the mystery and the world situation, and I'll probably keep checking in occasionally.

I think it's good that you know what you want out of a story.

sort of carving out a position in between here: i liked that there were mysteries that were hard to solve largely because humanity didn't seem to be in control at all, and that attempts to even gather information to sift through for clues that could easily lead to dead ends were incredibly risky and bloody affairs. named character deaths and credible threat of annihilation (coming primarily from the high threat level from titans) really helped to establish this fact about the world. now i'm somewhat disappointed because it's looking like it actually is mainly another story about humans scheming against one another after all, which is still interesting in the specifics, just not what i'd originally hoped for. the simultaneous lack/brevity of credible dangers associated with the tremendous progress in solving mysteries in recent chapters has also been disappointing in terms of the perceived difficulty of the ontological challenge. i suspect this is largely a matter where the human enemies feel less dangerous than the titans; whereas the titans always add at least some tension even if levi and mikasa are present and armed, not enough is done to show how the human enemies seem really terrifying to the scouts, even though a post hoc analysis does seem to suggest they were actually more dangerous in many senses. i feel that danger is poorly conveyed with the visuals, but i guess it's not really the author's fault that guns often aren't a serious threat in other manga stories. not that i'm under the illusion that named character deaths on their own will help fix what i'm actually disappointed with in any way (tho they can be used to draw attention to a major change of focus when one does happen, like with Hannes's)

# ¿ May 13, 2015 04:52

this allusion meant: Apr 9, 2006

the difference in energy requirements for shooting a grappling hook and providing minor changes in acceleration for a human body versus moving a carriage on brick/stone roads seems like a reasonable barrier in itself. otoh we know hot airships are basically feasible, and have obvious uses against titans

# ¿ Jun 13, 2015 04:24

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 21:07

this allusion meant: Apr 9, 2006

Liquid Dinosaur posted:

I'm confused, how is the Armored Titan still active and able to roar? Reiner got his loving head blown off. Did "Zeke" assume direct control of his titan, which now lacks a pilot since Reiner is (I assume?!?!?!?) very much dead? Is the implication supposed to be that it can still roar via remote control, but it's probably out of the picture for good in terms of being able to move and fight?

Presumably ending the chapter there means it's supposed to be a cliffhanger mystery to be explained soon afterwards.

# ¿ Jan 21, 2016 23:45

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