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Oddhair
Mar 21, 2004



This is going to sound really dumb, but can you extrapolate a load from other similar rounds?

I got these Lehigh Defense bullets in 90 gr for 9mm and also 65 gr which can be both 9mm and .380 auto. I don't have a .380 auto at this time, though I kinda want one.

The problem I'm trying to overcome is there's no load data from the manufacturer for the one suitable powder I have, Accurate #5, but there are loads for the 65 grain projectile for .380 auto with that powder, as well as normal load data for the 90 grain, for 9mm, using this powder. The load data for the light-for-caliber 65 grain for 9 is all warp speed, COL is 5 thousandths less than the 90 grain but muzzle velocities were all way up there above 1500 fps for standard pressure.

How does one formulate a load at this point, or should I just plan on holding those until I have some powder to start with one of their loads? (Also, if I did get a .380 in the short term I'd honestly no longer need this info as I could just load other projectiles for 9 and keep them 100% for the .380. I have about 200 of the Speer Gold Dot in 9 as well as 100 of the 90 grain Lehigh.

Light to heavy.

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shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar



Info at your own risk time





You *CAN* extrapolate load information if you're willing to put the effort in.


If you already have COL info that helps solve a lot of the headaches.


From there if you have a similarly built bullet, especially regarding the volume that is inside the case, you can take a load from a HEAVIER bullet and use it in a LIGHTER bullet.

DO NOT GO THE OTHER DIRECTION
Light bullet load -> Heavy bullet you're in potential Kaboom territory.



Start with the minimum load from the slightly heavier bullet and go from there. Generally you'll wind up with unburnt powder or rarely a squib starting out so be paranoid when you do tests.

Oddhair
Mar 21, 2004



That's kind of what I thought, and that's probably too many frog smilies for me. Will plan on scooping up any powder I see that's on the list or simply saving them for .380 auto later on, maybe. The .380 brass in the pic is the only piece I have, so...

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

Oddhair posted:

That's kind of what I thought, and that's probably too many frog smilies for me. Will plan on scooping up any powder I see that's on the list or simply saving them for .380 auto later on, maybe. The .380 brass in the pic is the only piece I have, so...

If you want to walk through it either here or on DM's I'd be happy to help.

It's something that can go very wrong if you don't pay attention. (even more so than typically have to do with reloading) BUT can be done safely.

tarlibone
Aug 1, 2014

Am I a... bad person?
AM I??





Fun Shoe

380... I don't load for that because I don't shot it at all, and Mrs. T doesn't shot it very often. I'd probably be loading it anyway, but around the time I started considering it seriously, boom, Pestilence happened.

Mostly by accident, though, I have maybe a couple hundred or so shells of it. They're easy to pick up at the range when you're scrounging for 9 mm. I also have just over fifty Short & Wimpy shells; if we were in the beforetimes, I'd consider loading for it and getting a beater LEO surplus 40 just to shoot it.

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

tarlibone posted:


Mostly by accident, though, I have maybe a couple hundred or so shells of it. They're easy to pick up at the range when you're scrounging for 9 mm. I also have just over fifty Short & Wimpy shells; if we were in the beforetimes, I'd consider loading for it and getting a beater LEO surplus 40 just to shoot it.

So what you need to do instead is go down a different rabbit hole and use those Short and Whimpy shells as jackets for your 45 acp reloading

tarlibone
Aug 1, 2014

Am I a... bad person?
AM I??





Fun Shoe

shalafi4 posted:

So what you need to do instead is go down a different rabbit hole and use those Short and Whimpy shells as jackets for your 45 acp reloading

... GET THEE BEHIND ME!

I knew there were swaging kits for turning 22 LR brass into jackets for cast 223/556 bullets. They do that for 45, too?

Collateral Damage
Jun 13, 2009



Oddhair posted:

This is going to sound really dumb, but can you extrapolate a load from other similar rounds?

I got these Lehigh Defense bullets in 90 gr for 9mm and also 65 gr which can be both 9mm and .380 auto. I don't have a .380 auto at this time, though I kinda want one.

The problem I'm trying to overcome is there's no load data from the manufacturer for the one suitable powder I have, Accurate #5, but there are loads for the 65 grain projectile for .380 auto with that powder, as well as normal load data for the 90 grain, for 9mm, using this powder. The load data for the light-for-caliber 65 grain for 9 is all warp speed, COL is 5 thousandths less than the 90 grain but muzzle velocities were all way up there above 1500 fps for standard pressure.
I tried simulating a load in GRT for Accurate #5 using the load for .380 as a starting point. Note that the Accurate #5 powder model isn't perfect in GRT, so at your own risk, start low, etc...



shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

tarlibone posted:

... GET THEE BEHIND ME!

I knew there were swaging kits for turning 22 LR brass into jackets for cast 223/556 bullets. They do that for 45, too?

YUP!

Hakarne
Jul 23, 2007
Vivo en el autobús!


Collateral Damage posted:

The case mouth should be roughly in the center of the groove before crimping. The crimp doesn't need to be very tight, just enough that the bullet doesn't walk itself out of the case under recoil.

Seating a bullet deeper will increase the initial pressure spike because you're decreasing the volume that the gases can expand into before the bullet starts moving. However in this case you only need to seat it a fraction of a mm deeper and it won't make much of a difference. If you're going by published load data it's going to err on the cautious side anyway.

I use published load data as a starting point, then use Gordon's Reloading Tool (http://grtools.de/) to sanity check it and see how much wiggle room I have. Heed the warnings the programs gives you and measure the volume of your fired cases and the actual measurements of your bullets, don't blindly trust the database. The more accurate your measurements, the more accurate the simulation will be. edit: Note that estimated velocity is going to be off for revolver rounds because the simulation assumes a sealed gas system and accounting for the cylinder gap is pretty much impossible.

As for crimping, if you're using a separate crimp die you won't have to change it if you change bullets. If you use a combined seater/crimper it depends on the design of the die, but probably not.

Wow this is great info, thanks! I'll definitely check out that program. I figured if it's only a few hundredths of an inch it wouldn't be that much of a pressure difference. But being new to this I'm not wanting to stray from published data without getting a feel for it. I'm using a new load with a 1.572 cartridge length and the crimp seems to be holding a lot better. I was hesitant to even try that as it's data that was published in a magazine so it's not technically manufacturer data. However it was created, tested, and fired specifically for the revolver I'm using so it's probably fine.

I'll definitely use that program to see what happens if I lower the COL on those other loads, though. More options are good!

Oddhair
Mar 21, 2004



Collateral Damage posted:

I tried simulating a load in GRT for Accurate #5 using the load for .380 as a starting point. Note that the Accurate #5 powder model isn't perfect in GRT, so at your own risk, start low, etc...





Thanks! And yeah, that tracks with their load data for the 90 grain but a little higher, they list 6.6 to 7.1.

Cat fell off the dang roof, so no new reloading goodies for me for a while.

Edit: Well, I lied, some powder became available and I grabbed a couple of pounds of CFE Pistol, thanks for the load extrapolation data but I will skip it entirely now.

Oddhair fucked around with this message at 22:30 on May 5, 2021

human garbage bag
Jan 8, 2020
Probation
Can't post for 13 days!


Can you mix and match dies and presses, or is it better to have dies and presses from the same brand?

Prof. Banks
Apr 22, 2015

Computer lab day! Time to spend 45 minutes trying to load pokemon.com!




You can definitely do it. I use RCBS dies in my Lee press.

tarlibone
Aug 1, 2014

Am I a... bad person?
AM I??





Fun Shoe

Mixing and matching is OK, because for most calibers and brands, the threads on the dies are all the same. I think some Dillon systems were nonstandard, but I don't know if that's still the case, or to what extent it ever was a problem. I know one reloader who won't touch anything Lee sells except for their factory crimp dies, which he swears by.

The only time that you want to watch out for this that I can think of is when using some turret-style presses, either manually indexed, automatically indexed, or fully progressive. Many times, it's the powder thrower that causes issues, as other dies may get in the way of the mechanism your powder measure uses to throw charges. But, they give you ways around this by selling risers and other things that move your measure up and out of the way.

Bob Mundon
Dec 1, 2003
Your Friendly Neighborhood Gun Nut

Outside of a few quirky issues mentioned just about all presses and dies are interchangeable. The big exception being 50BMG dies and the Dillon Square Deal, but even their other presses all take standard dies.

I would wager just about everyone who reloads mixes and matches presses and dies, no reason to get locked into one brand for both outside of those fee exceptions.

human garbage bag
Jan 8, 2020
Probation
Can't post for 13 days!


Got it, I'm mostly going with Lee anyway since that is considerably cheaper than the rest. Just ordered a little over $500 in reloading supplies. I went with the Lee 4 turret value press off ebay, along with 9mm (carbide) and .308 dies (also off ebay).

Other stuff I bought off Amazon:
  • Lee Perfect Powder Measurer
  • Lee Precision Decapping tool
  • Digital caliper
  • Digital powder scale
  • Lee Precision small primer feed
  • Inertia bullet puller
  • Frankford Arsenal Quick-N-EZ tumbler
  • 12 pounds of walnut media

Do I need to buy some kind of lubricant for reloading the .308? Also do I need a case trimming tool for the .308? I'm wondering how progressive presses trim rifle cases.

Yond Cassius
May 22, 2010

horny is prohibited

Bob Mundon posted:

no reason to get locked into one brand for both outside of those fee exceptions.

Color coordination!
That's about it though.

human garbage bag posted:

Do I need to buy some kind of lubricant for reloading the .308?

Yes; you'll want some case lubricant. Imperial Sizing Wax is my personal favorite, but I do all my loading on a single-stager; if you're doing bulk ammo you might want something that sprays on.

Yond Cassius fucked around with this message at 03:28 on May 10, 2021

Bob Mundon
Dec 1, 2003
Your Friendly Neighborhood Gun Nut

You will need a trimmer for rifle rounds. If you just do one caliber the Lee hand trimmer is a decent cheap starting point. You probably won't hit max length after the first firing, but I always trim/debur/chamfer every time to keep things consistent.

Rifle always always ALWAYS takes lube. I've used a few different and one shot is ok for the fast application, but honestly Redding Imperial Die Wax is the way to go. It tumbles off easier than one shot too, so in my mind it's not really any slower. Barely takes any at all and it goes so much smoother.

Pistol sizing doesn't normally take lube if you have carbide dies, so always buy carbide. No way that skip that for rifle though.


Yond Cassius posted:

Color coordination!
That's about it though.


Doesn't even help you with dies. Buy the best fit for your application at the best deal you can find.

Yond Cassius
May 22, 2010

horny is prohibited

Bob Mundon posted:

Doesn't even help you with dies. Buy the best fit for your application at the best deal you can find.

Dies come with boxes; boxes come in colors.

human garbage bag
Jan 8, 2020
Probation
Can't post for 13 days!


I ended up just buying some 99% isopropyl alcohol and liquid lanolin to make my own lube, this video convinced me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgsimvLoddo

Collateral Damage
Jun 13, 2009



I use Hornady's Unique case lube. Just slightly wet a fingertip and rub it on the case, then wipe it off after sizing. Judging from how much of it I've used in five years of reloading I'm pretty sure that $7, 100g jar is going to outlive me.

Bob Mundon
Dec 1, 2003
Your Friendly Neighborhood Gun Nut

human garbage bag posted:

I ended up just buying some 99% isopropyl alcohol and liquid lanolin to make my own lube, this video convinced me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgsimvLoddo


By all accounts seems to work well, just be careful it's really cleaned off before introducing primers into the mix. Hopefully it tumbles off as easily as Imperial wax and not like One Shot.


Collateral Damage posted:

I use Hornady's Unique case lube. Just slightly wet a fingertip and rub it on the case, then wipe it off after sizing. Judging from how much of it I've used in five years of reloading I'm pretty sure that $7, 100g jar is going to outlive me.

Yeah, wax lubes last for freaking ever.

Bob Mundon fucked around with this message at 11:44 on May 10, 2021

DkHelmet
Jul 10, 2001

I pity the foal...


human garbage bag posted:

I ended up just buying some 99% isopropyl alcohol and liquid lanolin to make my own lube, this video convinced me.

I’ve been using this for six years or so. No issues. There’s tons of good recipes here: https://www.frfrogspad.com/homemade.htm

Just avoid The Dip.

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

Bob Mundon posted:

By all accounts seems to work well, just be careful it's really cleaned off before introducing primers into the mix. Hopefully it tumbles off as easily as Imperial wax and not like One Shot.


In the totally not scientific testing I've done, it sticks a little bit more than Imperial was but not as much as One Shot.


I also tend to wet tumble everything so removing lube generally isn't an issue.


The Lanolin/alcohol mix DOES take a little more soap to come off cleanly though.

human garbage bag
Jan 8, 2020
Probation
Can't post for 13 days!


shalafi4 posted:

In the totally not scientific testing I've done, it sticks a little bit more than Imperial was but not as much as One Shot.


I also tend to wet tumble everything so removing lube generally isn't an issue.


The Lanolin/alcohol mix DOES take a little more soap to come off cleanly though.

I thought you were supposed to clean the brass first, then shape it? Or do you clean it both before and after shaping?

tarlibone
Aug 1, 2014

Am I a... bad person?
AM I??





Fun Shoe

I lube with Lee's Horrible Water-Based Cartridge Paste. It works fine. The only reason I use it is because I got a tube for free with my first reloading kit, and since all I've been able to do when it comes to reloading for rifle calibers is prep some cases, I haven't had to buy anything else.

One neat thing is that it's not oil-based, so it's easy to clean off.

human garbage bag posted:

I thought you were supposed to clean the brass first, then shape it? Or do you clean it both before and after shaping?


You should do at least a little bit of cleaning before you resize so you don't get any grit in your dies, as this can damage them. After you're done resizing, you'll want to clean to remove the lube and, if you gave him just a light cleaning the first time, to get them as clean as you want them to be. I like mine really shiny.

human garbage bag
Jan 8, 2020
Probation
Can't post for 13 days!


Is lube needed when inserting the rifle bullet or primer?

Dalaram
Jun 6, 2002

Marshall/Kirtaner 8/24 nevar forget! (omg pedo)

human garbage bag posted:

Is lube needed when inserting the rifle bullet or primer?

No. Those are intentionally held by friction against the casing. Primers should natively have enough tension, bullets generally need a light crimping into he brass to keep them from jostling around.

Also, lube could introduce unexpected burn performance, if it was in the casing.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006


human garbage bag posted:

Is lube needed when inserting the rifle bullet or primer?

No on the bullet and OH gently caress NO on the primer. Lube + primer is how you end up with dead primers.

The only reason you have lube is to help your case get out of your resizing die. You're basically using a ton of pressure to smoosh a metal tube into another metal tube that's slightly smaller than it, and without the lube that poo poo can get stuck to the point that the case rim rips right off rather than the case extracting. That's when you get to find out how to drill out a pocket and thread the case head for a screw so you can salvage your dies.

Note that there IS such a thing as too much lube, though. Get too much in there and you'll hydraulically dent your case (usually around the neck) because it can't get out of the way and has nowhere to go. The case is softer than the die, so that's what gives.

A few more thoughts:

1) long live Imperial Sizing Wax. I was getting a lot of stuck cases with some just motherfuck lake city 7.62 brass and that's the only poo poo I found that made it extract reliably. The tin lasts forever. Frankly even if they charged $100 a tin I'd still get it because it's such an infrequent purchase that the price really doesn't matter.

2) Lee dies are fine when you're starting out. But if you stick with reloading you'll find out why, exactly, they're cheaper than the others. In particular the non-threaded decapping pins can be annoying on crimped or otherwise hard to remove primers and being able to unscrew the expanding ball is a HUGE help when you inevitably get a case stuck (it happens to everyone eventually). Replaceable decapping pins is also nice. Don't get me wrong, I've got lee dies. They make every caliber under the sun, and sometimes the price difference is nuts. I think my Lee 11mm Mauser dies cost me something like $40, for example, and the next cheapest were over a hundred. Went Lee with that. But anything where it's nearer in price? I just cough up the extra. Or . . . . .

3) dies are the definition of a durable product. You can get some really good deals on used dies on eBay, especially the super common poo poo that everyone has. Just look at the pics to make sure they aren't rusty, as that's the one thing that will really gently caress up dies. It's rare these days that I actually buy new dies.

4) digital scales are fine, but the beam ones are really the way to go IMO. So much more precise at the price points you'll find on decent digitals. Once you get used to them they're also gently caress near as fast. (Yes, I'm aware that I probably just kicked off 3 pages of people arguing beam vs. digital. You're welcome).

human garbage bag
Jan 8, 2020
Probation
Can't post for 13 days!


So is this a good rifle brass prep process?

1. Clean the brass in tumbler
2. Lube the brass
3. Shape the brass
4. Wash the brash in a soap solution to remove lube
5. Trim and deburr the brass
6. Dry the brass

Thermos
Mar 29, 2019



I dry my brass before I trim and deburr but that's my general process.

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

human garbage bag posted:

I thought you were supposed to clean the brass first, then shape it? Or do you clean it both before and after shaping?

It depends?


If it is just me doing another batch of 308 reloads for my G3 clone? I just tumble them after resizing.


If I'm doing a batch of .223 that's originally from once fired military surplus. I'll tumble clean it, then size/lube, and tumble again.

Dirt/grit/grime over the long term can scratch up your dies so at least a quick cleaning is suggested.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006


human garbage bag posted:

So is this a good rifle brass prep process?

1. Clean the brass in tumbler
2. Lube the brass
3. Shape the brass
4. Wash the brash in a soap solution to remove lube
5. Trim and deburr the brass
6. Dry the brass


Thermos posted:

I dry my brass before I trim and deburr but that's my general process.

Yeah, that's basically fine. I deburr before I wash because lube doesn't bother a case trimmer, but we're deep into six of one, half a dozen of the other territory.

Time Crisis Actor
Apr 28, 2002


I sexually identify as a fat tinder girl,

Yeah lemme just clean my pannus first.

These candles smell amazing btw


human garbage bag posted:

Can you mix and match dies and presses, or is it better to have dies and presses from the same brand?

Absolutely fine. I use like 4 different brands of dies in my Dillon 1050

Bob Mundon
Dec 1, 2003
Your Friendly Neighborhood Gun Nut

human garbage bag posted:

So is this a good rifle brass prep process?

1. Clean the brass in tumbler
2. Lube the brass
3. Shape the brass
4. Wash the brash in a soap solution to remove lube
5. Trim and deburr the brass
6. Dry the brass


I dry tumble so instead of washing, I'll just throw the back in the tumbler after sizing. No drying necessary. Keep in mind it's not just drying the outside, you have to dry out the inside because water will kill primers and powder. I want no part of that so just stuck with dry tumble.

Just wait until you find out what annealing is.....

Bob Mundon fucked around with this message at 23:12 on May 10, 2021

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006


Bob Mundon posted:

I dry tumble so instead of washing, I'll just throw the back in the tumbler after sizing. No drying necessary. Keep in mind it's not just drying the outside, you have to dry out the inside because water will kill primers and powder. I want no part of that so just stuck with dry tumble.

Just wait until you find out what annealing is.....

The shortcut to drying is tossing your brass in a metal basket (or on a baking pan you don't care about) in the oven at 200 degrees for an hour or so.

Not nearly hot enough or long enough to gently caress up the anneal, but plenty to take off any little water droplets.

Bob Mundon
Dec 1, 2003
Your Friendly Neighborhood Gun Nut

Dry tumbling works just fine. I'd rather not introduce something that can deactivate the combustion if I don't have to but hey that's me.



Btw annealing comment was different topic, just another rabbit hole to go down. Not related to case drying.

human garbage bag
Jan 8, 2020
Probation
Can't post for 13 days!


Can I use powder meant for magnum pistols and large rifles in 9mm rounds? I'm having seriously trouble finding in stock powder that says it's designed for 9mm.

Ophidian
Jan 12, 2005

Woo WOO, Look a Parrot...
LOOK AT IT!


What powder do you have available?

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Collateral Damage
Jun 13, 2009



human garbage bag posted:

Can I use powder meant for magnum pistols and large rifles in 9mm rounds? I'm having seriously trouble finding in stock powder that says it's designed for 9mm.
It Depends™

You can't just substitute powders because the one you need is out of stock, you have to redo your load calculations and some powders simply don't work for some cartridges. You can't load a big bore rifle round with a fast pistol powder for instance, because the amount of powder you'd need to keep peak pressure inside acceptable limits would be so small it would not ignite reliably and most likely case squibs and misfires.

That said some powders work across purposes. I load 357 and 44 Magnum with VV N110 which is sold as a rifle powder, but it's fast enough that it works well for those cartridges too.

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