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Bob Mundon
Dec 1, 2003
Your Friendly Neighborhood Gun Nut

human garbage bag posted:

Can I use powder meant for magnum pistols and large rifles in 9mm rounds? I'm having seriously trouble finding in stock powder that says it's designed for 9mm.


Not likely no, depending on what you have. Hit up ammoseek or the reddit reloading discord and powder pops up pretty regularly.

Kinda thinking things may be finally loosening up, seeing a lot more regular in stock alerts on staples. And went by Cabela's yesterday for something else and *GASP* had a decent selection of primers and powders. Price was double what it used to be, but shocked seeing primers on the shelf.

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Collateral Damage
Jun 13, 2009



For case prep my process is

1. Deprime
2. Wet tumble and dry.
3. Lube
4. Size
5. Wipe lube off with a paper towel.
6. Measure length and trim if needed.
6.1 Chamfer and deburr trimmed cases.
7. Prime

I haven't gotten to the point where I need to anneal brass yet. Once I do I guess that goes after trimming.

tarlibone
Aug 1, 2014

Am I a... bad person?
AM I??





Fun Shoe

I think that some traditionally magnum pistol powders have some uses in some rifle cartridges because of the slower burn rate. For a small cartridge like 9 mm, though, I think the crossover between magnum powders like H110 would be less.

For example, I just looked at my Lee reloading book, and I don't see H110 or 2400 (powders associated with magnum loads) in the 9 mm loads I scanned. I do see lots of loads using HP38 and CFE for both 9 mm & 357 magnum, but the 357 loads using those aren't what most folks think of as "magnum."

TL;DR: find a load in a book (or whatever source you're using) that has a powder you can get your hands on, and work that load up with that powder.

Bob Mundon
Dec 1, 2003
Your Friendly Neighborhood Gun Nut

Collateral Damage posted:

I haven't gotten to the point where I need to anneal brass yet. Once I do I guess that goes after trimming.


I've taken to annealing my precision stuff every firing even though it's not really necessary for case life. My thinking is if I'm trying to keep things consistent, if I have to do something every 3 or 4 firings (ie annealing, full length sizing) I really need to do it every time.

Most people do it before sizing, but not everyone so *shrug*.

DkHelmet
Jul 10, 2001

I pity the foal...


I think if youíre at the level of comfort and experience to ask if you can use Powder X in Application Y because you have no recipes, the answer should always be ďNo.Ē

Powder drought is a terrible justification to lose fingers and eyeballs. We just saw a video of a guy who had surgeons pull parts of the rifle out of his chest and was talking about keeping pressure on his jugular after a kaboom.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Bob Mundon posted:

I've taken to annealing my precision stuff every firing even though it's not really necessary for case life. My thinking is if I'm trying to keep things consistent, if I have to do something every 3 or 4 firings (ie annealing, full length sizing) I really need to do it every time.

Most people do it before sizing, but not everyone so *shrug*.

I anneal every firing for even my blasting ammo, just because sorting batches of ammo by when the last annealing was is just a little too much record keeping for me. It doesn't take much time either, so it's not a huge loss.

As for whether to go before or after resizing, I read a lot of reloaders arguing on a lot of forums about this, and it seems like a split enough opinion that I suspect there isn't a clear best practice. I do it before resizing just because that lets me use the quench as my first round of brass washing. Anneal, throw it in a bucket of water, then once the annealing is done toss some dish soap in the water and swish that around until the worst of the fouling is off.

edit: the other place I anneal is before reshaping brass if I'm turning one thing into another - e.g. .30-06 becoming 8mm mauser. It helps a lot to soften up the area that's being worked and reduces the number of hosed cases pretty significantly.

Bob Mundon
Dec 1, 2003
Your Friendly Neighborhood Gun Nut

Yeah to hell with keeping track separately. Luckily my precision stuff is a different caliber than blasting stuff so that makes it easy on my part.

Same thing for my 5.56 though, I'll use a dedicated decapping die and ream the primer pocket for every case. Figured out really quick I'll spend more time sorting for crimped primers than I would by just doing everything that way.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Crimped pockets is why god invented cheap and replicable pins.

Oddhair
Mar 21, 2004



And to anyone avoiding the Reddit reloading discord I recommend just doing it. You don't have to spend any time on Reddit at all. I already had a couple of Discord channels for streamers I like to watch, added the reloading channel, and just hover all day on in-stock alerts. I saw 1000 CCI SP primers for $120 earlier which is the best price I've seen recently for primers online, scooped a couple of pounds of powder I have multiple loads for at reasonable prices, another 400x 9mm once-fired brass, and just in the last week quantities and varieties have been going up. I've seen TiteGroup in 1#, 4# and 8# for about $20/Lb, as well as too many other powders to count, from multiple vendors. Scads of projectiles, as well as loaded ammo though ammo is an occasional thing so far.

human garbage bag
Jan 8, 2020


Is it a bad idea to use black powder or a black powder substitute in pistol rounds?

MazeOfTzeentch
May 2, 2009

rip miso beno


Most modern pistol rounds require a more energy-dense powder, and will probably foul up very quickly to the point of uselessness. That said I've seen 1911s running on BP loaded .45 ACP on YouTube, so I guess you could maybe get away with it with some rounds. Older rounds like 38 special that were designed for BP would also work.

tarlibone
Aug 1, 2014

Am I a... bad person?
AM I??





Fun Shoe

human garbage bag posted:

Is it a bad idea to use black powder or a black powder substitute in pistol rounds?

Black powder is super-different than smokeless, and not just in terms of power. Just from what I have read when I researched loading some "fun" 38 special black powder rounds, you can't leave empty space in the case, you have to use bullets lubed with something compatible with black powder, and burnt black powder is super-corrosive, so you have to clean thoroughly. Also, they are super dirty.

Someone more experienced in black powder will correct me if I'm wrong. But all of those things convinced me to hold off until I have a 38 special I don't care about to play with. Or one designed to deal with black powder, I guess.

I think you'd also be limited to revolver rounds, as sufficient charges require a lot of case space. That's why 38 special is so big, case-wise; it started as a black powder round.

...

... man, I want to load some of those up some time.

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

human garbage bag posted:

Is it a bad idea to use black powder or a black powder substitute in pistol rounds?

To mirror the other guys.


It's one of those you *can* do it.

Should is entirely a different matter.




After I checked to make sure it wouldn't cause any actual issues on my own. I loaded a couple in 7.62x25 as a joke for one of my shooting buddies.

I mixed one into the end of a magazine for my CZ 52 we were shooting.

Bang
bang
bang
bang...

Phoof *black powder smoke cloud*

The wtf look was worth the extra cleaning time.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

human garbage bag posted:

Is it a bad idea to use black powder or a black powder substitute in pistol rounds?

If you want the black powder experience without the fouling, you can get some Trail Boss powder. It's very bulky and produces pressure curves very similar to black powder.

tarlibone
Aug 1, 2014

Am I a... bad person?
AM I??





Fun Shoe

infrared35 posted:

If you want the black powder experience without the fouling, you can get some Trail Boss powder. It's very bulky and produces pressure curves very similar to black powder.

Also, while you absolutely cannot compress Trail Boss (which you have to do with black powder), it is remarkable because of its load development method, which reminds me of black powder because it starts out based on volume.

I use it in my Dirty series of revolver rounds.

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

tarlibone posted:

Also, while you absolutely cannot compress Trail Boss (which you have to do with black powder), it is remarkable because of its load development method, which reminds me of black powder because it starts out based on volume.

I use it in my Dirty series of revolver rounds.

If you're even a little handy with metalworking it's worth making some custom scoops for Trail Boss loads.


If you're going by the volume method with it take a known charged case. Sharpie line where the powder fills to.

Empty it out, Cut the case off at the sharpie line.

solder a piece of heavy wire onto/around the new cut case's body.

Volia instant trail boss scoop.

tarlibone
Aug 1, 2014

Am I a... bad person?
AM I??





Fun Shoe

shalafi4 posted:

If you're even a little handy with metalworking it's worth making some custom scoops for Trail Boss loads.


If you're going by the volume method with it take a known charged case. Sharpie line where the powder fills to.

Empty it out, Cut the case off at the sharpie line.

solder a piece of heavy wire onto/around the new cut case's body.

Volia instant trail boss scoop.

I have actually thought about taking a case, setting the intended bullet next to it to see where the bullet sits, putting the line there, cutting off the case just below that line, and then making a Dipper out of it.

I haven't done it because I'm lazy, but i may get around to it when primers are available again. Even the discord thing isn't helping because I can't constantly watch it.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Me, looking for 7.65 Belgian (or Argentine, or Mauser, or whatever other insane name you're using for 7.65x53 ammo):

Hrm. . . . Only finding stuff for $1.50 a throw. I was kind of hoping I could grab some PPU for cheaper.

. . . wonder about dies. . . .well, there ARE some used ones on ebay, but I really only need a couple of boxes. Might still be worthwhile to just grab ammo for now.

. . . hrm, brass is $fuckoff expensive. Probably just going to grab the ammo.

Ok, what's this? An article about turning .30-06 brass into 7.65. Probably should have thought of that. Well I've got a gently caress load of .30-06 kicking around. Wonder what bullet it takes?

. . . Oh, .311 duh. I've got a loving mountain of that.




Reloading: When you realize the only thing keeping you from cobbling together an obsolete cartridge in your garage is the dies.

human garbage bag
Jan 8, 2020


Should I remove the used primers before tumbling my brass?

Also is it ok to use rifle powder in a rifle cartridge even if there is no official reloading data for that cartridge and powder combo?

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

human garbage bag posted:

Should I remove the used primers before tumbling my brass?


Personal preference?

I go either way depending on how dirty my brass is. If it's really dusty/dirty I'll tumble beforehand.

If you're wet tumbling be sure to let them dry a little more after you pop the primers out because they can hold water.



human garbage bag posted:


Also is it ok to use rifle powder in a rifle cartridge even if there is no official reloading data for that cartridge and powder combo?

Unless you're willing to do put the time into a LOT of research and a very real possibility of a Kaboom? NO don't do it.

It *CAN* be done but understand that you're making miniature bombs. One screw up/miscalculation and at a minimum your gun just became landscape confetti. At the worst you're in a coffin.

tarlibone
Aug 1, 2014

Am I a... bad person?
AM I??





Fun Shoe

human garbage bag posted:

Should I remove the used primers before tumbling my brass?

Also is it ok to use rifle powder in a rifle cartridge even if there is no official reloading data for that cartridge and powder combo?

If you're dry tumbling, I would leave the primers in, because media loves to get stuck in flash holes in my experience. Leaving the primers in there stops that. If you're wet tumbling, I'd get the primers out first, but you'll want to pre-clean the brass first if you're using a sizing die to decap your brass. You don't want that grime in your sizing die. If you have a universal decapping die, then you don't have to mess with it.

Depending on how much time I want to spend messing with my brass, I will usually either decap everything with my universal die, wet-tumble it, dry it, and size it; or I'll dry-tumble it overnight to pre-clean, size/decap in one step, and wet tumble to properly clean and polish the brass. The first method involves two drying cycles if you use soap and water to do the pre-clean, and you can't leave the brass in the cleaning solution for too long or it'll get discolored, so if want to set it and forget it for the first cleaning, I just dry tumble it.

As for the loading question... I'll let the rifle loaders handle that. I know that for pistol loading, I have used powders with projectiles that I could not find matching data for, but in those cases, I looked for matching powder data for a similar bullet (a slightly heavier one) and went with that. I don't know if that's how rifle loaders handle it, though.

Yond Cassius
May 22, 2010

horny is prohibited

human garbage bag posted:

Should I remove the used primers before tumbling my brass?

Your call. It won't do anything unsafe to leave them in (until/unless they get too gunked up to seat new primers), but I know some benchresters insist it affects consistency if you don't.

human garbage bag posted:

Also is it ok to use rifle powder in a rifle cartridge even if there is no official reloading data for that cartridge and powder combo?

They're your guns, your fingers, and your eyes, but I would not recommend this, especially for a novice reloader. I've been doing this for nearly fourteen years and I would be pretty hesitant.

Powders are rarely interchangeable - you're not just looking out for total energy in the powder, but also the burn rate (which is not linear, but a pressure-related curve). These affect the peak chamber pressure, and, if you're running a semi-auto, peak gas port pressure. You can derive loads for the same cartridge/powder combination across different bullet weights and types, with a little experience, but if the powder isn't listed for the cartridge at all? That raises some red flags.

A safe load may exist (and there are tools like Quickload or Gordon's Reloading Tool that could help you find one), but this is by no means guaranteed.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Donít gently caress with that as a newbie. Itís something you can do very carefully as an experienced reloader (e.g. using .303 load data as a starting place for 7.7 Japanese loads) but thatís something for way down the road.

Learn to walk before trying to run.

human garbage bag
Jan 8, 2020


Should I only trust reloading data from the powder manufacturer?

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

human garbage bag posted:

Should I only trust reloading data from the powder manufacturer?

Powder manufacturer or a published reloading manual from a reloading company. (Lee, Hornady, Sierra etc..)

Yond Cassius
May 22, 2010

horny is prohibited

human garbage bag posted:

Should I only trust reloading data from the powder manufacturer?

Even under the best circumstances, professional load data will vary somewhat based on production lots, testing criteria, testing fixtures, exact bullet selection, and so on. If you cross-reference you'll find that they mostly overlap, and any of the big-name published loading manuals will be fine - most reloaders I know own at least a few and will cross-reference if they're unsure. Lee even includes some basic load data with their dies.

My shelf has manuals from Barnes, Speer, Hornady, Western Powders, and two from Lyman. I look stuff up on the Hodgdon website regularly.

The big thing is to be careful of folklore recipes passed around from unknown people on the Internet. Always cross-reference that with a recent-edition published manual.

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

If anyone wants a glimpse into what making loads from absolutely no data looks like

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3956418


What's not included in there is probably 35~40 hours of online research, emails to other people trying to reverse engineer it, and messages back and forth with Wally. (he volunteered his Quickload expertise)


With all of that. Still haven't made a single test round yet.

Stupid powder apocalypse

human garbage bag
Jan 8, 2020


How would I go about selling an unopened jug of powder? Also just want to double-check here, but is Accurate 2230 powder good for .308 Win?

jwang
Mar 31, 2013


Ideally you'd try to find someone local and make the exchange in a predetermined location because hazmat shipping is a bitch. Also, in this point of the shortage, as long as you're offering a reasonable price for the powder, there will ALWAYS be takers for it no matter what it is. I'd check out local gun shows for possible people who might be interested, that or your local Cabelas/Bass Pro.

Yond Cassius
May 22, 2010

horny is prohibited

human garbage bag posted:

Also just want to double-check here, but is Accurate 2230 powder good for .308 Win?

You'll be fine.
Here, download the Western Powders loadbook.

Page 71 has what you're looking for, from 110gr all the way up to 168. This author at least had excellent results with it.

human garbage bag
Jan 8, 2020


Here's my plan for using the Norma MRP powder I erroneously bought for .308 Win:

1. Sight my rifle using factory ammunition at 100 yards.
2. Create several batches of 308 rounds using the same bullet weight used to sight the rifle, but loaded with the mystery powder, starting with below the minimum load, and increasing slightly for each batch.
3. Go to the range and shoot a target at 100 yards, starting with the rounds with the least amount of powder.
4. If I miss low, it means the rounds need more powder.
5. Keep going through the rounds until I start missing high; the correct amount of powder would therefore be between the rounds that missed low and the ones that missed high.
6. Make some more rounds with powder in between the range found in step 5.
7. Test again until the ideal amount of powder is found.

human garbage bag fucked around with this message at 04:55 on May 28, 2021

tarlibone
Aug 1, 2014

Am I a... bad person?
AM I??





Fun Shoe

human garbage bag posted:

Here's my plan for using the Norma MBR powder I erroneously bought for .308 Win:

1. Sight my rifle using factory ammunition at 100 yards.
2. Create several batches of 308 rounds using the same bullet weight used to sight the rifle, but loaded with the mystery powder, starting with below the minimum load, and increasing slightly for each batch.
3. Go to the range and shoot a target at 100 yards, starting with the rounds with the least amount of powder.
4. If I miss low, it means the rounds need more powder.
5. Keep going through the rounds until I start missing high; the correct amount of powder would therefore be between the rounds that missed low and the ones that missed high.
6. Make some more rounds with powder in between the range found in step 5.
7. Test again until the ideal amount of powder is found.

I'm not a veteran reloader, but this sounds dangerous.

I can't find any data about the existence of "Norma MBR." The closest I can come up with is Norma MRP, but you can't be talking about that because I looked up some stuff about that and .308 Winchester, and at MidwayUSA's Q&A section on that powder, two questions about using it in that cartridge were answered with, "Don't."

Not all powders work with all cartridges. Burn rates are different, resulting in different pressure curves, and it's not as simple as just using less of a higher-energy powder. Very, very bad things can happen if you use the wrong powder.

The only powder I can think of that's nearly universal, insofar as using it properly will usually cause a bullet to leave the muzzle without blowing up your gun (even though it'll be subsonic for rifle loads), is Trail Boss. And that only works because Ignatius Matthew Reginald Hodgdon sold the soul of his shooting finger to the devil to get the recipe for the tiny magic Cheerios it is made out of.

tarlibone fucked around with this message at 04:34 on May 28, 2021

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



human garbage bag posted:

Here's my plan for using the Norma MBR powder I erroneously bought for .308 Win:

1. Sight my rifle using factory ammunition at 100 yards.
2. Create several batches of 308 rounds using the same bullet weight used to sight the rifle, but loaded with the mystery powder, starting with below the minimum load, and increasing slightly for each batch.
3. Go to the range and shoot a target at 100 yards, starting with the rounds with the least amount of powder.
4. If I miss low, it means the rounds need more powder.
5. Keep going through the rounds until I start missing high; the correct amount of powder would therefore be between the rounds that missed low and the ones that missed high.
6. Make some more rounds with powder in between the range found in step 5.
7. Test again until the ideal amount of powder is found.

This is wrong in just a ton of ways. Iíll let the people who know more about burn rates and pressure curves do their thing but Iíll say this much:

Different powders behave differently and itís not as simple as figuring out the same POI.

But fundamentally youíre doing it rear end backwards. Develop an accurate load for your powder and then zero your rifle. Developing a load to match a preexisting zero is like buying new TVs until one comes out of the box tuned to CBS

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Ok reading your previous posts you are asking a lot of basic questions, which is good because learning is good, but also a lot of stuff about shortcuts etc.

Start simple. Make a basic load using a known recipe with a recommended powder and bullet weight combo. Learn how to develop a load and get good at the physical act of rolling a cartridge.

Donít try to cut corners on this learning process because this is when you have basically no idea what youíre doing and can make newbie mistakes that compound with your experimental powder mix etc to cause a bad accident.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Also what is the exact name of the powder you have? Iím not seeing it in your posts. Sorry if I missed that. Thereís a lot of knowledge in here and someone can maybe find a reference that lists a starting load for it.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Somebody please post a babbyís first load development to;dr or link a website that has it. I donít have time right now but this dialing in the shots to match a previous zero has me deeply concerned and this guy needs a basic primer on how you develop a load.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



You are home brewing explosives and setting them off next to your face. This is not a process to gently caress around with and YOLO it, and doubly so when youíre learning the basics.

tarlibone
Aug 1, 2014

Am I a... bad person?
AM I??





Fun Shoe

Looking back at when I loaded my first 38 special, which I think was a 125 grain flat nose bullet, here's what I did:

  1. Acquired loading equipment
  2. Gathered components
  3. Picked a projectile common for the caliber: 125 grain flat point
  4. Looked in some loading books for a powder that could be used: Universal was my eventual choice.
  5. Found load data for that combination. My bullet was copper-plated but not what you would call jacketed, so I went with LRNFP
  6. Hodgon's site gave a range of 4.3 - 4.7 grains of Universal with that bullet weight and a COAL of 1.445"
  7. I started at the minimum load and eventually worked up to 4.5, where I was happy with recoil and accuracy.

At this point, I didn't have a chronograph, so I stuck to loaded data and found something that worked well and felt right. Now that I have a chrono, I check velocity to make sure my loads are matching the published numbers. If I see really high velocity for a given charge, then I know I probably want to either go a little lighter with the charge, or at least stop going up.

human garbage bag
Jan 8, 2020


tarlibone posted:

I'm not a veteran reloader, but this sounds dangerous.

I can't find any data about the existence of "Norma MBR." The closest I can come up with is Norma MRP, but you can't be talking about that because I looked up some stuff about that and .308 Winchester, and at MidwayUSA's Q&A section on that powder, two questions about using it in that cartridge were answered with, "Don't."

Not all powders work with all cartridges. Burn rates are different, resulting in different pressure curves, and it's not as simple as just using less of a higher-energy powder. Very, very bad things can happen if you use the wrong powder.

The only powder I can think of that's nearly universal, insofar as using it properly will usually cause a bullet to leave the muzzle without blowing up your gun (even though it'll be subsonic for rifle loads), is Trail Boss. And that only works because Ignatius Matthew Reginald Hodgdon sold the soul of his shooting finger to the devil to get the recipe for the tiny magic Cheerios it is made out of.

Sorry yeah the powder is Norma MRP, technically MP 670 from American Reloading, but they said it was like Norma MRP. I was getting desperate because I couldn't find rifle powder in stock anywhere, and saw this MP 670 for $28/llb with free shipping and hazmat fee included, and bought 8 pounds . I found one post on a forum where a guy said he used it for 308 and it was fine so I pulled the trigger.

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Coxswain Balls
Jun 3, 2001



Honestly it might be best to cut your losses and try to resell it. Buying an 8lb jug before doing any load development is risky enough for powder with available load data for your caliber in that it might not work great in your gun, but now you're venturing into advanced territory that you don't seem at all prepared for.

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