Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us $3,400 per month for bandwidth bills alone, and since we don't believe in shoving popup ads to our registered users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
«1418 »
  • Post
  • Reply
mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006




GRRM's death would lead to more creation than he's done in years, this is true.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009


SaviourX posted:

Haven't had a big in a while, so I gotta say that I would have much, much rather GRRM have grown the cancers that took Bowie, Lemmy, and Rickman.

Sorry but the motherfucker is going to live for five hundred years, if he hasn't died by a heart attack now he has impenetrable genetics.

Yet in all his centuries he will not finish the book.

Fleetwood
Mar 26, 2010

arrippen andah tehrrun arrippen andah tehrrun



I'm pretty sure GRRM is just Dick Cheney in disguise.

Josuke Higashikata
Mar 7, 2013

No need to apologise when I am right, like usual.





DarkCrawler posted:

Sorry but the motherfucker is going to live for five hundred years, if he hasn't died by a heart attack now he has impenetrable genetics.

Yet in all his centuries he will not finish the book.

He will, however, find a way to unwrite books 5, 4, 3, 2 and half of 1.

sit on my Facebook
Jun 20, 2007

ASS GAS OR GRASS
No One Rides for FREE
In the Trumplord Holy Land

Fleetwood posted:

I'm pretty sure GRRM is just Dick Cheney in disguise.

This would explain so much

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008


GRRM will finally accept the truth and start releasing hardback copies of single chapters.

He will be lauded for saving the print industry.

Cartouche
Jan 4, 2011



Book?

subpage
May 27, 2003

Alea iacta est

"Have you seen a book, a book of nine hundred and twenty pages?"

Jewel Repetition
Dec 24, 2012

Ask me about Briar Rose and Chicken Chaser.


There were only 2 dead POV characters. 3? Okay, so what. 4? Big deal. 5? Whatever.

Zulily Zoetrope
Jun 1, 2011



Muldoon

Well outside of prologue/epilogue characters, only five PoV characters have died, but one is around as a zombie and another is Jon Snow. I can see how you'd only count Ned and Quent and Arys, and it's pretty easy to forget about one of the latter.

Malpais Legate
Oct 1, 2014



I'd venture to say that if they didn't get a named chapter, they don't really count. So if it's one of the stupid titles instead of a name like THE KRAKEN'S DAUGHTER or whatever they can shove it on the "important character" death counter. That leaves us with what, Ned and Cat?

Really the lesson to be learned is the Gurm has this really loving stupid reputation for killing characters that's exaggerated by fans and the show.

violent sex idiot
Mar 24, 2007

O Muhammad, I seek your intercession with my Lord for the return of my eyesight


Pillbug

he kills a shitload of characters its just that most of them are not point of view. joffery robb ned robert viserys oberyn dontos mountain sword dancer guy balon mormont uhhhhhhhh khal drogo tywin cat ygritte benjen lysa kevan renly

Fhate
Feb 15, 2007

"Appended to its own quotation is false" appended to its own quotation is false.

Also maester Luwin, grand maester Pycelle, maester Aemon, a bajillion named members of the Stark household (though most of them only got a few lines), the blacksmith at castle black(Donal Noye?) who isn't in the show but gets a lot of time in the book, basically anybody who crosses paths with Arya (other than Hotpie Jaqen and Gendry), possibly the Hound, and a crap ton of minor characters along the way. A lot of people die in these books. You may not care about them, but they're there and they die.

emanresu tnuocca
Sep 2, 2011

Clarke has more acting talent in her brows than most other actors, including herself, have in their entire body.



People said "too many important characters die and now gurm doesn't know how to finish the story" which is an absurd notion that supposes that gurm at one point knew how to finish the story.

And besides, of all those wankers you guys mentioned the only actually important non POV character that bit the dust is Tywin as he's been a major player since the first book, how is Oberyn Martell a major character when he's introduced in the third book and dies less than half a book later? How the heck is maester aemon a major character whose death somehow cripples the flow of the story? As I said earlier, the problem isn't that grrm killed too many characters, it's that he can't just let POV characters do poo poo without following up on them with their POV chapters, Tyrion's journey through Essos would have been just as boring even if he hadn't killed Tywin.

So yeah, sorry I got the POV count wrong, who could possibly forget Quentyn Martell and Arys Oakheart.

emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at Jan 18, 2016 around 20:17

Krinkle
Feb 9, 2003

Ah do believe Ah've got the vapors...
Ah mean the farts



Fhate posted:

Also maester Luwin, grand maester Pycelle, maester Aemon, a bajillion named members of the Stark household (though most of them only got a few lines), the blacksmith at castle black(Donal Noye?) who isn't in the show but gets a lot of time in the book, basically anybody who crosses paths with Arya (other than Hotpie Jaqen and Gendry), possibly the Hound, and a crap ton of minor characters along the way. A lot of people die in these books. You may not care about them, but they're there and they die.

Oh holy poo poo Pycelle. I forgot about him.

He's just mentioned off hand like oh by the way there's a dead pycelle in the corner but gently caress that Varys is back

I don't see how killing off characters wrote him into a corner. I feel like a theme of these books is explicitly spelled out when tyrion talks to Oberyn about his dad flipping off the martells and setting off a blood feud that he has to deal with "it's turtles all the way down but like marionette turtles all making the turtle below them slap another turtle and act butthurt by ancient grievances" I think that's a direct quote I'm pretty good at remembering things.

Anyway the entire point was to kill off Ned's generation, just completely wipe them out, and have jon's generation deal with the fallout. You were given glimpses into the previous generation so you draw parallels between the characters and say alright Arya is like Lyanna, Tyrion wants to be like Tywin, Sansa is going to be the next littlefinger, there's a continuity of these philosophies and archetypes. Tywin isn't needed anymore because he already set up the dominoes and his death is the catalyst for whatever comes after the planned five year gap that got nixed. poo poo was supposed to change this way.

I have a hard time understanding how any fantasy story that has literal magic in it can be tied in such a knot that he can't say "a wizard did it" and get to where he wanted to go to originally. I mean we might roll our eyes but he could do it. Isn't that how he's going to get jon back in? I can't even conceive of a plot loggerheads that is keeping him from writing. He's just a lazy fat gently caress and has lost interest in his project.

Krinkle fucked around with this message at Jan 18, 2016 around 21:21

i81icu812
Dec 5, 2006


emanresu tnuocca posted:

People said "too many important characters die and now gurm doesn't know how to finish the story" which is an absurd notion that supposes that gurm at one point knew how to finish the story.

Back when GURM wasn't filthy rich and needed to pitch publishers for book deals he... still never outlined anything. He did have to claim to have a better idea of where he was going though. http://watchersonthewall.com/george...n-game-thrones/

Of course now we are way off rails and book length and quality have gone in opposite directions

Krinkle posted:

I have a hard time understanding how any fantasy story that has literal magic in it can be tied in such a knot that he can't say "a wizard did it" and get to where he wanted to go to originally. I mean we might roll our eyes but he could do it. Isn't that how he's going to get jon back in? I can't even conceive of a plot loggerheads that is keeping him from writing. He's just a lazy fat gently caress and has lost interest in his project.

This implies he knew where he wanted to go originally.

kcroy
May 30, 2002



Krinkle posted:

I have a hard time understanding how any fantasy story that has literal magic in it can be tied in such a knot that he can't say "a wizard did it" and get to where he wanted to go to originally. I mean we might roll our eyes but he could do it. Isn't that how he's going to get jon back in? I can't even conceive of a plot loggerheads that is keeping him from writing. He's just a lazy fat gently caress and has lost interest in his project.

He could, but that isn't how he writes. These stories really are his children at some level - he wants to see where they go, what happens, and how they grow up. He wrote somewhere that once he figures out what happens to them, he loses interest in writing. I need to find that quote, because I think that is the single most telling insight into the books, and his writing process. Writing is an experience for him, that he enjoys in his own time - to see where it all goes. When it gets especially frustrating, he needs time to process it internally and find a good / fun / exciting way for it to work together. The larger the story gets, the harder it gets to tie things together in his mind, in a manner that he enjoys. IMO he has a massive project management problem right now, and has for years lacked the tools to resolve it. This is what I imagine in his basement, but with pizza boxes.



I mean would you rather sit there figuring this poo poo out, or go get your dick sucked at some Con.

I think any obvious means to resolve the problems would detract from what makes his stories good in the first place. I suspect he needs to be able to hold the whole thing in his head at once to find clever resolutions. The sad fact is that each book should take longer and longer to put out, and that rushing him doesn't make the books any better.

I'll throw my old theory back out here - GRRM made a deal with the devil to write the most renowned Fantasy trilogy of a generation... but GRRM didn't read the small type - he thought it would be over in 3... but the story kept building, and his Demonic Muse abandoned him after those 3 were written. So we get AFOC.. half finished, we get ADWD... still not a complete book IMO. The fame grows, but he's still not free - constant demands for another book. an HBO deal! His fortunes soar, but still the book lingers. And now the pain starts.. the show will be done before the books. His Children's fates aren't his call anymore. The writers "ruin" the ending... Thats ok, he can save it.. but the books still don't get done. Maybe he shits out one more book, but no one cares, and all he has done is increase the amount of characters. He literally can't end this book. And then one day he dies, and he sits in hell and watches Paris sell off the ending of the book out to a new publisher. Who figures the publisher could bring in more readership with more romance and uh horses and poo poo. Now the series has been expanded to 12 books, to 15. IT's like loving Dragonlance or Starwars, where every new writing hack gets a shot at a story. And the GRRM twists and burns down below.

edit: something like this:

kcroy fucked around with this message at Jan 19, 2016 around 00:54

counterfeitsaint
Feb 26, 2010

I'm a girl, and you're
gnomes, and it's like
what? Yikes.

kcroy posted:

He could, but that isn't how he writes. These stories really are his children at some level - he wants to see where they go, what happens, and how they grow up. He wrote somewhere that once he figures out what happens to them, he loses interest in writing. I need to find that quote, because I think that is the single most telling insight into the books, and his writing process. Writing is an experience for him, that he enjoys in his own time - to see where it all goes. When it gets especially frustrating, he needs time to process it internally and find a good / fun / exciting way for it to work together. The larger the story gets, the harder it gets to tie things together in his mind, in a manner that he enjoys. IMO he has a massive project management problem right now, and has for years lacked the tools to resolve it. This is what I imagine in his basement, but with pizza boxes.



I mean would you rather sit there figuring this poo poo out, or go get your dick sucked at some Con.

I think any obvious means to resolve the problems would detract from what makes his stories good in the first place. I suspect he needs to be able to hold the whole thing in his head at once to find clever resolutions. The sad fact is that each book should take longer and longer to put out, and that rushing him doesn't make the books any better.

I'll throw my old theory back out here - GRRM made a deal with the devil to write the most renowned Fantasy trilogy of a generation... but GRRM didn't read the small type - he thought it would be over in 3... but the story kept building, and his Demonic Muse abandoned him after those 3 were written. So we get AFOC.. half finished, we get ADWD... still not a complete book IMO. The fame grows, but he's still not free - constant demands for another book. an HBO deal! His fortunes soar, but still the book lingers. And now the pain starts.. the show will be done before the books. His Children's fates aren't his call anymore. The writers "ruin" the ending... Thats ok, he can save it.. but the books still don't get done. Maybe he shits out one more book, but no one cares, and all he has done is increase the amount of characters. He literally can't end this book. And then one day he dies, and he sits in hell and watches Paris sell off the ending of the book out to a new publisher. Who figures the publisher could bring in more readership with more romance and uh horses and poo poo. Now the series has been expanded to 12 books, to 15. IT's like loving Dragonlance or Starwars, where every new writing hack gets a shot at a story. And the GRRM twists and burns down below.

edit: something like this:





Now I want to read Fevre Dream

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006




It's real you know:

SaviourX
Sep 29, 2003

The only true Catwoman is Julie Newmar, Lee Meriwether, or Eartha Kitt.



Can I say how bad the dicksucking on the Wild Cards covers is? They're technically competent, yes. But everyone in the GRRMsville camps falls over themselves when it's literally photo modeling and I'm like, why not just use the photo. Or even better yet, not use a terrible character as your selling point.

tl;dr: take it to the other thread.

counterfeitsaint
Feb 26, 2010

I'm a girl, and you're
gnomes, and it's like
what? Yikes.

mind the walrus posted:

It's real you know:



Oh gently caress, bluff called.

jit bull transpile
Jan 6, 2012

f $o(^PUPFRIENDS(friend)) q:friend="" d
. d snuggle^PUPROUTINES(^PUPFRIENDS(friend))

Gary’s Answer

Krinkle posted:

I have a hard time understanding how any fantasy story that has literal magic in it can be tied in such a knot that he can't say "a wizard did it" and get to where he wanted to go to originally. I mean we might roll our eyes but he could do it. Isn't that how he's going to get jon back in? I can't even conceive of a plot loggerheads that is keeping him from writing. He's just a lazy fat gently caress and has lost interest in his project.

Even if Martin has flaws as a writer, he understands that when magic is the solution to everything it makes the story boring. There's no dramatic tension if the protags can just pull new powers out of their rear end any time they're in trouble (see The Sword of Truth for many, many examples). In GoT, magical events happen rarely and at times that are dramatically satisfying, which lends to the air that there's rules to what's going on, even if we don't understand them as the audience. It makes the magic feel less like a cheap trick and more like a mystical aura over the setting. I would honestly rather wait 10 years for the next book than have him wandwave away whatever problems he's having. Or just get no next book at all. We all like to poo poo on his writing pace, but I don't think anyone in this thread would want him to deliberately write a crappy book just so we can get an ending.

emanresu tnuocca
Sep 2, 2011

Clarke has more acting talent in her brows than most other actors, including herself, have in their entire body.



Preston Jacobs is shameless as gently caress: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLDHMZG8S2s

tl;dw: At some point he goes off about how people who interpret Dany's vision of a blue rose growing through a chink in the wall as a confirmation of R+L=J are dead wrong because "They think Lyanna = Blue Flower and Jon = Wall, but why would Lyanna grow out of Jon". Now, let's ignore for a second the far more tenuous connections he himself makes in his videos all the freaking time... what's with this terrible strawman argument? Pretty much the only interpretation of this vision which I've heard is that Jon is the blue winter rose through his association with Lyanna, his mother, who has a very strong textual connection to blue winter roses and that the vision signifies Jon himself at the wall not Jon being the wall. wtf preston, that's weak as poo poo.

Trudis
Mar 23, 2008

This is the Dawning of the Age of Hilarious


Wait, are you saying that Preson Jacobs, to make his conspiracy videos about Songs of Ice and Fire, plays fast and loose with textual evidence to support his theory? Why I never...

SaviourX
Sep 29, 2003

The only true Catwoman is Julie Newmar, Lee Meriwether, or Eartha Kitt.



LeftistMuslimObama posted:

Even if Martin has flaws as a writer, he understands

Whoa, what is with this goodposting mess. In this thread.

Cartouche
Jan 4, 2011



jsoh posted:

mountain sword dancer guy

YOU TAKE THAT BACK. FOREL LIVES.

Krinkle
Feb 9, 2003

Ah do believe Ah've got the vapors...
Ah mean the farts



I wonder if part of his problem is there's no way for stannis and brienne to have satisfying conclusions to their arcs anymore. Or I wonder why the show just had her gently caress off to winterfell and chop his head off if not to solve the problem for him. Nothing Brienne did advanced her agenda at all. It always felt like busywork to allow worldbuilding and an alternative perspective to the high lords and their games. I never expected her to kill stannis or even wanted her to.

As the show goes on and characters meet and gently caress/fight for no reason more plot threads that were going to get pruned will become apparent.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006




Krinkle posted:

It always felt like busywork to allow worldbuilding and an alternative perspective to the high lords and their games. I never expected her to kill stannis or even wanted her to.

Because it was busywork that a competent editor would have told Martin was narrative deadweight and needed to be explored from a King's Landing or Sansa's POV. Even then I could have been ok with that useless loving plot detour if Brienne had just died anti-climactically, but nope we had to check in with her in ADWD to make sure yet another character has plot armor from George "unjustified reputation as a character murderer" Martin. I've harped on it before but it really does come across as amateur in hindsight that he flung POV characters to far-reaches of the narrative map effectively insulating them from debilitating harm.

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014


I'd love to hear his explanation for why Quentyn was included at all.

Krinkle
Feb 9, 2003

Ah do believe Ah've got the vapors...
Ah mean the farts



Groovelord Neato posted:

I'd love to hear his explanation for why Quentyn was included at all.

There's a chapter where tyrion tells aegon exactly how to win danerys and it's not showing up on her doorstep asking for her dragons and an army. Then you are shown he was exactly right when she ignores the poo poo out of quentyn and marries some dude nailing her feet to floor in this loving quagmire nation and later fucks off to poo poo in the desert.

Tyrions advice is bullshit but his analysis for why aegon's plan wouldn't work was proven solid. There's nothing that could happen in westeros that would accelerate danerys's schedule. She doesn't give a gently caress about westeros. It's like telling her needed in narnia and that's nice but her car is being repossessed today and taking up all of her concern at the moment.

Krinkle fucked around with this message at Jan 20, 2016 around 00:13

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014


But it takes up entirely too much of the book.

Krinkle
Feb 9, 2003

Ah do believe Ah've got the vapors...
Ah mean the farts



At that point in time danerys is the least interesting part of her own story. "Who will she pick" requires you to first meet the contestants. And you need the outside sources looking in to see what she's blind to and fully appreciate how goddamn frustrating it is when she decides to send him packing and ignore the marriage contract just because it had her brother's name on the dotted line and she had other priorities. Also I guess the dragons needed to be freed to roost in some pyramids or else hilzdar zo loraq would have ordered them shot while danerys is out of town.

emanresu tnuocca
Sep 2, 2011

Clarke has more acting talent in her brows than most other actors, including herself, have in their entire body.



Quentyn story would have felt less redundant if we actually got that big fight in the end of the book and knew what's up with the tattered prince and any of the windblown or the cartoonish yunkai commanders whose descriptions make up pretty much the entirety of Quentyn's second chapter.

I don't really give that much of a poo poo about Quentyn's chapters cause there are only three of those and as Krinkle said it's Dany herself who's boring not the secondary characters that flock to her. Quentyn actually has a defined quest, he fails it rather miserably and then comes up with a ridiculously ballsy and stupid plan that gets him killed, that's a pretty fine arc for three chapters (coulda done without the introductory chapter in Volantis though). It's really Dany and Tyrion themselves whose chapters make ADWD such a drag. Dany spends an entire book being indecisive and doing nothing, she mopes about having to don the floppy ears and about being horny for Daario until dragon ex machina happens, whoopie.

savinhill
Mar 28, 2010


Krinkle posted:

I wonder if part of his problem is there's no way for stannis and brienne to have satisfying conclusions to their arcs anymore. Or I wonder why the show just had her gently caress off to winterfell and chop his head off if not to solve the problem for him. Nothing Brienne did advanced her agenda at all. It always felt like busywork to allow worldbuilding and an alternative perspective to the high lords and their games. I never expected her to kill stannis or even wanted her to.

As the show goes on and characters meet and gently caress/fight for no reason more plot threads that were going to get pruned will become apparent.

I don't think Stannis is a dead end plot thread for Grrm that's going to be pruned soon. I think he's intended to have an important and impactful role leading right up to the endgame in the books, and if he is dead on the show it's because that role in the books is very complex and will most likely be very intertwined with Jon and Ramsey's plots, and the show just doesn't do complex intertwined poo poo, probably wants to narrow the cast down to as few major players as possible leading into the last seasons, and Stannis just so happens to be the oldest and least pretty character for fangirls to swoon over in the North, so he gots to go on the hbo show.

savinhill fucked around with this message at Jan 20, 2016 around 00:54

i81icu812
Dec 5, 2006


kcroy posted:

He could, but that isn't how he writes. These stories really are his children at some level - he wants to see where they go, what happens, and how they grow up. He wrote somewhere that once he figures out what happens to them, he loses interest in writing. I need to find that quote, because I think that is the single most telling insight into the books, and his writing process. Writing is an experience for him, that he enjoys in his own time - to see where it all goes. When it gets especially frustrating, he needs time to process it internally and find a good / fun / exciting way for it to work together. The larger the story gets, the harder it gets to tie things together in his mind, in a manner that he enjoys. IMO he has a massive project management problem right now, and has for years lacked the tools to resolve it. This is what I imagine in his basement, but with pizza boxes.




http://watchersonthewall.com/george...n-game-thrones/

Literally the post before yours!

quote:

As you know I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, jave some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle characters in the drama.

Then GURM proceeds to outline his intended epic trilogy. Only things start going further and further off rails as the books go on and the book quality goes to poo poo.

Its an interesting letter, really.

Krinkle
Feb 9, 2003

Ah do believe Ah've got the vapors...
Ah mean the farts



savinhill posted:

I don't think Stannis is a dead end plot thread for Grrm that's going to be pruned soon. I think he's intended to have an important and impactful role leading right up to the endgame in the books, and if he is dead on the show it's because that role in the books is very complex and will most likely be very intertwined with Jon and Ramsey's plots, and the show just doesn't do complex intertwined poo poo, probably wants to narrow the cast down to as few major players as possible leading into the last seasons, and Stannis just so happens to be the oldest and least pretty character for fangirls to swoon over in the North, so he gots to go on the hbo show.

Hey I hope so. Even if Stannis claims the rightful title of the Usurper's Heir just so he can get a noble death being burnt alive by danerys I want to see his journey. Even if he dies in a ditch it's been a hell of a ride. They killed barristan just for plot beats I'm completely open to stannis dying but being a huge player in the books to come. I'm praying for it!

e: and for books. I'm a sucker.

syscall girl
Nov 6, 2009

I'm not in the business. I am the business.

Fun Shoe

Cartouche posted:

YOU TAKE THAT BACK. FOREL LIVES.

I love this theory so much

In that GRRM would also love it, to take a huge runny poo poo on

Krinkle
Feb 9, 2003

Ah do believe Ah've got the vapors...
Ah mean the farts



Preston made me want forel to be not a faceless man. I like the idea he was hired because he has these keen eyes and specific power to see through faceless men glamours and he's completely ignorant of it. He's just a full of himself swordfighter with magic eyes and thinks because he's brave enough to tell the sealord his cat was a cat he's king poo poo of sword mountain. It would be somehow less interesting if he goes to the black cells, pulls of a face and says okay I'm j'haquen h'gar now. Please forgive me and my injudicious apostrophes and spelling I forget how you spell the fake name in the fake language.

pugnax
Oct 10, 2012

Specialization is for insects.


Who the gently caress is Forel?

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Evil Fluffy
Jul 13, 2009

Scholars are some of the most pompous and pedantic people I've ever had the joy of meeting.

Malpais Legate posted:

I'd venture to say that if they didn't get a named chapter, they don't really count. So if it's one of the stupid titles instead of a name like THE KRAKEN'S DAUGHTER or whatever they can shove it on the "important character" death counter. That leaves us with what, Ned and Cat?

Robb, Geoffery, King Robert, Tywin: Not Important Characters.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply
«1418 »