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mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



Mermen is on there, but it's "merlings" on layer 3. It's not quite as great as the Varys one.

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TERFherder
Apr 26, 2010

удар в шкурові кульки





Solice Kirsk posted:

Was it the Aztecs or Mayans that never bothered using wheels? Tech develops differently across civilizations, so if a world just never bothered with an industrial revolution then I could see it plugging along at the middle ages for several thousand years.

Speak of old slightly racist authors and mayan technology... Any one read Orson Scott Card's Postwatch Redemption? I enjoyed it when I was younger. I'm sure it is problematic in 100 different ways. People learn to use time travel but only for observation, ultimately trying to determine how to save the world from environmental collapse. One of the interesting twists is that Columbus was given fake visions by an alternative timeline "Postwatch" - because the only thing worse than the horror of colonization is what happened when the Aztecs ( or Mayans I don't remember ) successfully invaded the West. So now they have to fix the whole colonization gently caress up.

kalvanoo
Apr 29, 2018

look at this lil perv

varys merman is on layer 0 because it's true, its a fact.

pseudanonymous
Aug 30, 2008

When you make the second entry and the debits and credits balance, and you blow them to hell.

TERFherder posted:

Speak of old slightly racist authors and mayan technology... Any one read Orson Scott Card's Postwatch Redemption? I enjoyed it when I was younger. I'm sure it is problematic in 100 different ways. People learn to use time travel but only for observation, ultimately trying to determine how to save the world from environmental collapse. One of the interesting twists is that Columbus was given fake visions by an alternative timeline "Postwatch" - because the only thing worse than the horror of colonization is what happened when the Aztecs ( or Mayans I don't remember ) successfully invaded the West. So now they have to fix the whole colonization gently caress up.

Im loving shocked a Mormon writer found a way to claim colonization was a good thing, especially the one who argued Hitler was a moral person

mastajake
Oct 3, 2005

My blade is unBENDING!


Stephen King did the same with the JFK assassination in 11/22/63. It's like, really? You're gonna try to say this shitheap is somehow the best timeline we could have?

sunday at work
Apr 6, 2011

"Man is the animal that thinks something is wrong."


In the book's original timeline Columbus leads a new crusade to capture the Holy Land which leaves Europe weakened and eventually overrun by the Aztecs.

The Aztec conquest of Europe and the European conquest of the Americas (orchestrated by an alternate Pastwatch who send Columbus a vision that convinces him to sail west instead of leading a crusade) both lead to a future of environmental exploitation and collapse.

The Pastwatch characters that the book is about avert that future collapse by innoculating the Aztecs against European diseases and accelerating their metallurgy so they can meet Columbus on equal terms and they all live happily ever after together.

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013
Probation
Can't post for 9 hours!


TERFherder posted:

Does no one remember loyal Ty?

Ty served his years before the GRRM mast and is now on the cusp of publishing his final volume in his and his co-author's 9 book epic sci-fi saga, The Expanse. Eight books of which came out in the time since A Dance with Dragons was published. (Leviathan Wakes beat ADWD to book stores by a month).

TowerofOil
May 22, 2007

You don't need a doctor, I'm a christian scientist.



Bread Liar

sunday at work posted:

In the book's original timeline Columbus leads a new crusade to capture the Holy Land which leaves Europe weakened and eventually overrun by the Aztecs.

The Aztec conquest of Europe and the European conquest of the Americas (orchestrated by an alternate Pastwatch who send Columbus a vision that convinces him to sail west instead of leading a crusade) both lead to a future of environmental exploitation and collapse.

The Pastwatch characters that the book is about avert that future collapse by innoculating the Aztecs against European diseases and accelerating their metallurgy so they can meet Columbus on equal terms and they all live happily ever after together.

Sounds like a lot of trouble could be saved by just killing Columbus

Liquid Communism
Mar 9, 2004


Out here, everything hurts.




Shimrra Jamaane posted:

One one hand its the 10th anniversary of the show. On the other hand well, hope springs eternal.

https://twitter.com/GameOfThrones/status/1382390104124239874

In July it will legitimately be 10 years since the Absolute Fucker published a main-line ASoIaF book.

TowerofOil posted:

Sounds like a lot of trouble could be saved by just killing Columbus

Eh, the Great Man theory of history is bullshit.

TERFherder
Apr 26, 2010

удар в шкурові кульки





pseudanonymous posted:

the one who argued Hitler was a moral person
If you are referring to Ender's Game, I'd disagree with this. Other people claimed it was an apologia for Hitler, which Card denied, saying he set up Ender to be the complete opposite of Hitler. Card wants to talk about the role of "intention" and moral guilt, but other people are digging into the whole "Superman" and "Genocide" thing going on. It's an interesting discussion.

nine-gear crow posted:

Ty served his years before the GRRM mast and is now on the cusp of publishing his final volume in his and his co-author's 9 book epic sci-fi saga, The Expanse. Eight books of which came out in the time since A Dance with Dragons was published. (Leviathan Wakes beat ADWD to book stores by a month).

Good for him. Just goes to show that good employees are hard to find, and that you need to find a way to keep them around. Or from escaping your dungeon.

kalvanoo posted:

varys merman is on layer 0 because it's true, its a fact.

Tru dat. I saw one about Reese castrating Theon. Did uh.. did he just cut off his dick and leave his balls? Is this canon?

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018



TERFherder posted:

If you are referring to Ender's Game, I'd disagree with this. Other people claimed it was an apologia for Hitler, which Card denied, saying he set up Ender to be the complete opposite of Hitler. Card wants to talk about the role of "intention" and moral guilt, but other people are digging into the whole "Superman" and "Genocide" thing going on. It's an interesting discussion.


Good for him. Just goes to show that good employees are hard to find, and that you need to find a way to keep them around. Or from escaping your dungeon.


Tru dat. I saw one about Reese castrating Theon. Did uh.. did he just cut off his dick and leave his balls? Is this canon?

in the show someone kicked him between the legs a few times and it didn't affect him, so no balls

i don't recall if the novelization went into specifics

emanresu tnuocca
Sep 2, 2011

Clarke has more acting talent in her brows than most other actors, including herself, have in their entire body.



Like getting kicked in your genital mutilation wound wouldn't hurt like gently caress.

I felt that scene was paying homage to that scene from King of the Hill when Bobby tries to kick Peggy in the nuts.

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018



emanresu tnuocca posted:

Like getting kicked in your genital mutilation wound wouldn't hurt like gently caress.

I felt that scene was paying homage to that scene from King of the Hill when Bobby tries to kick Peggy in the nuts.

yeah

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



emanresu tnuocca posted:

I felt that scene was paying homage to that scene from King of the Hill when Bobby tries to kick Peggy in the nuts.
If there's something I'd want my mega-successful "serious" and "adult" franchise to do at a critical moment in battle, it's remind people of a 20 year-old moment from a cartoon.

banned from Starbucks
Jul 18, 2004






KotH was the better show by that point in GoT so

pseudanonymous
Aug 30, 2008

When you make the second entry and the debits and credits balance, and you blow them to hell.

TERFherder posted:

If you are referring to Ender's Game, I'd disagree with this. Other people claimed it was an apologia for Hitler, which Card denied, saying he set up Ender to be the complete opposite of Hitler. Card wants to talk about the role of "intention" and moral guilt, but other people are digging into the whole "Superman" and "Genocide" thing going on. It's an interesting discussion.

Card is a really lovely writer, and just because he didn't intend to create an apologia for Hitler doesn't mean it isn't. Tolkein has repeatedly claimed he wasn't a racist but have you read the Lord of the Rings? Sometimes people put things into work they don't even know they are doing consciously.

Also, you know, Card is a liar and a terrible loving person, but even he isn't going to come out and say "oh yeah this book was written in defense of hitler" or his unlimited supply of magical underwear money would probably slow down.

So you know, you kind of have to be a bit careful taking the word of a writer about their own work at face value, let alone a bad one, let alone a bad Mormon one, let alone Orson Scott Card.

Though tbh I tend to believe the theory he didn't really write the book.

Libluini
May 18, 2012

Did I predict the future?


Grimey Drawer

sunday at work posted:

In the book's original timeline Columbus leads a new crusade to capture the Holy Land which leaves Europe weakened and eventually overrun by the Aztecs.

The Aztec conquest of Europe and the European conquest of the Americas (orchestrated by an alternate Pastwatch who send Columbus a vision that convinces him to sail west instead of leading a crusade) both lead to a future of environmental exploitation and collapse.

The Pastwatch characters that the book is about avert that future collapse by innoculating the Aztecs against European diseases and accelerating their metallurgy so they can meet Columbus on equal terms and they all live happily ever after together.

This is so dumb and logically incoherent. Did the Aztecs taking Europe also then immediately die to our diseases? Because if not, this is pure nonsense. Apparently in timeline A, the Aztecs were perfectly fine contacting Europeans and advanced fast enough to go to a vastly different climate and defeat the population of an entire continent.

You'd think innoculating those magical Super-Aztecs and accelerating their technological progress would just lead to Europe falling even faster. But nope.


Never mind that both Mayans (cyclical collapse, mostly gone by the point Europeans show up) and Aztecs (unstable tribal coalition wrecked by rebellions and close to breaking) are the worst South American civilizations an author could choose. At that point why not go full blast insanity and make the destroyers of Christianity be the Inca? At least their empire was somewhat stable and still growing before European diseases coming from the first point of contact reached them and wrecked them completely.

I think as a writer, if you want to use stuff from real life, you should do your due diligence and at least look up some modern sources to make sure you aren't writing total bullshit. But apparently that's not like how Orson Scott Card rolls, yikes.

TERFherder
Apr 26, 2010

удар в шкурові кульки





pseudanonymous posted:

Card is a really lovely writer, and just because he didn't intend to create an apologia for Hitler doesn't mean it isn't. Tolkein has repeatedly claimed he wasn't a racist but have you read the Lord of the Rings? Sometimes people put things into work they don't even know they are doing consciously.

Also, you know, Card is a liar and a terrible loving person, but even he isn't going to come out and say "oh yeah this book was written in defense of hitler" or his unlimited supply of magical underwear money would probably slow down.

So you know, you kind of have to be a bit careful taking the word of a writer about their own work at face value, let alone a bad one, let alone a bad Mormon one, let alone Orson Scott Card.

Though tbh I tend to believe the theory he didn't really write the book.

quote:

Sometimes people put things into work they don't even know they are doing consciously.
Fair enough. I still think it is a real stretch to say it is an apologia for Hitler, or justification for any genocide. In the first book, the main character is tricked into fighting a war, which culminates with the presumed xenocide of an alien race. Humans destroying alien species is pretty common fodder for sci-fi books, and is usually an indication of how lovely we are. Here it is no different - the main character is horrified with what he has done, and how he has been used. He sees his only chance at moral redemption is to ensure that the Xenocide isn't complete. It would be as if Hitler somehow didn't know he was killing jews the whole time, won the war, and then escaped to Argentina and spent the rest of his days single-handedly ensuring the survival of the Jewish people.

I can see how this might be an apologia for people who fought in the war, or supported the war. In particular it speaks to me of the scientists that created nuclear weapons, but that was just my take away. But it could apply to pretty much anything - that we support corporations that destroy species every day. Or pay taxes that go to bombing hospitals overseas. That people just follow orders, and the bigger picture is rarely a concern. But if I believe this is what the author is implying, then the second part of that HAS to be - I must do everything I can do to fix it. Oh, and that my name will be forever associated with these crimes, a loving horror story passed down through the generations.

The main theme of these books IMHO is the question of what it means to be "human". The other sentient species in the series include soft shelled ant people, ewoks that turn into trees, an AI that exists in the sum of human's computers, and a virus that converts everything it infects into the same lifecycle/ecosystem as itself. The author is clearly saying that all of these have a rightful place in the universe, and that war between them is due to lack of communication. These books are literally about seeing the "other" as ourselves/human. Seeing as how Mormons were persecuted in America, I think the more "threatening" view he promotes is that these other groups _should_ be allowed to continue, even though they represent a threat to our existence. In these books, it is the stupid short-sighted people who want to isolate / contain / destroy the other species.

Also the main character is a total cuck and ends up in some sad sexless marriage raising another man's kids. In a series that focuses on propagating our DNA, Ender really is the end of his line.

So I don't know - if you can take from that an apologia for Hitler, more power to you.

quote:

Also, you know, Card is a liar and a terrible loving person

I know he is homophobic, which isn't too surprising considering his age and religion. And his whole "Obama is a dictator, working to destroy America" is pretty sad and misinformed. I'm not sure that makes him a terrible loving person though. I think his position on homosexuality stands in stark contrast to the theme of the Xenocide books, which is focused on inclusion rather than exclusion.

quote:

or his unlimited supply of magical underwear money...let alone a bad Mormon one..

Is he a terrible person because he's Mormon? Because that is some pretty narrow minded crap right there.

Take the plunge! Okay!
Feb 24, 2007




Card campaigned for criminalization of homosexuality and reverted to only campaigning against gay marriage some time in the 00s. And I mean campaigned - wrote essays, chaired committees of bigoted organizations, that kind of active involvement.

TERFherder
Apr 26, 2010

удар в шкурові кульки





Take the plunge! Okay! posted:

Card campaigned for criminalization of homosexuality and reverted to only campaigning against gay marriage some time in the 00s. And I mean campaigned - wrote essays, chaired committees of bigoted organizations, that kind of active involvement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p44bc2CSAI

yeah ok that is pretty terrible.

TERFherder fucked around with this message at 09:23 on Apr 19, 2021

Drakyn
Dec 26, 2012



Orson Scott Card: The Hypocrites of Homosexuality posted:

Within the Church, the young person who experiments with homosexual behavior should be counseled with, not excommunicated. But as the adolescent moves into adulthood and continues to engage in sinful practices far beyond the level of experimentation, then the consequences within the Church must grow more severe and more long-lasting; unfortunately, they may also be more public as well.

This applies also to the polity, the citizens at large. Laws against homosexual behavior should remain on the books, not to be indiscriminately enforced against anyone who happens to be caught violating them, but to be used when necessary to send a clear message that those who flagrantly violate society's regulation of sexual behavior cannot be permitted to remain as acceptable, equal citizens within that society.

The goal of the polity is not to put homosexuals in jail. The goal is to discourage people from engaging in homosexual practices in the first place, and, when they nevertheless proceed in their homosexual behavior, to encourage them to do so discreetly, so as not to shake the confidence of the community in the polity's ability to provide rules for safe, stable, dependable marriage and family relationships.

Those who would be members of a community must sacrifice the satisfaction of some of their individual desires in order to maintain the existence of that community. They must, in other words, obey the rules that define what that community is. Those who are not willing or able to obey the rules should honestly admit the fact and withdraw from membership.

Thus, just as America, a democratic society, is under no obligation to preserve some imagined "right" of citizens who wish to use their freedom to overthrow that democracy and institute tyranny, so likewise the LDS church, which is founded on the idea that the word of God as revealed through his prophets should determine the behavior of the Saints, is under no obligation to protect some supposed "right" of those members who would like to persuade us that neither God nor the prophets has the authority to regulate them.

If the Church has no the authority to tell its members that they may not engage in homosexual practices, then it has no authority at all. And if we accept the argument of the hypocrites of homosexuality that their sin is not a sin, we have destroyed ourselves.

Orson Scott Card in the preface to The Hypocrites of Homosexuality, covering his gigantic moon-sized rear end with a piece of kleenex posted:

This essay was published in February of 1990, in the following context: The Supreme Court had declared in 1986 (Bowers v. Hardwick) that a Georgia law prohibiting sodomy even in the privacy of one's own home was constitutional. I was also writing this essay to a conservative Mormon audience that at the time would have felt no interest in decriminalizing homosexual acts. In that context, my call to "leave the laws on the books" was simply recognizing the law at that time, and my call to not enforce it except in flagrant cases was actually, within that context, a liberal and tolerant view -- for which I was roundly criticized in conservative Mormon circles as being "pro-gay." Those who now use this essay to attack me as a "homophobe" deceptively ignore the context and treat the essay as if I had written it yesterday afternoon. That is absurd -- now that the law has changed (the decision was overturned in 2003) I have no interest in criminalizing homosexual acts and would never call for such a thing, any more than I wanted such laws enforced back when they were still on the books. But I stand by the main points of this essay, which concerns matters internal to the Mormon Church.

Collateral
Feb 17, 2010


An insane man posted:

Society's regulation of sexual behaviour.

Holy poo poo

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Desert Bus
May 9, 2004

Take 1 tablet by mouth daily.

Orson Scott Card also did this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamlet%27s_Father

quote:

Hamlet's Father is a 2008 novella by Orson Scott Card, which retells the story of Shakespeare's Hamlet in modernist prose, and which makes several changes to the characters' motivations and backstory. It has drawn substantial criticism for its portrayal of King Hamlet as a pedophile who molested Laertes, Horatio, and Rosencrantz and Guildenstern, and implication that this in turn made them homosexuals.

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