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A Typical Goon
Feb 25, 2011

I'm not fat I'm big buffed


So I was just thinking about Aegon and how we know he's alive. Anyway, we know originally that Rhaegar thought of himself as the Prince that was Promised, but then when Aegon was born, Rhaegar thought it was Aegon. Then apperently Aegon got all head smashed and it looks like PTTP is Dany. However, now that Aegon is alive, I could actually see Rhaegar being right and Aegon being the Prince that was Promised. Dany just seems to obvious to me, it would be totally expected.

That would also make Dany the mummer's dragon that she sees in the House of the Undying. I haven't read Dance and I can't really remember anything about Aegon's birth, but while reading the book I'm going to watch for this. I could see Grum doing a twist along these lines

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Contra Calculus
Nov 6, 2009



I think the mummer's dragon is actually supposed to either be Stannis, or the Great Stone Dragon that he keeps trying to summon via Melisandre.

Rednik
Apr 10, 2005




I don't think Aegon's alive. The guy who says he's Aegon is merely posing. Hence, mummer's dragon.

Solice Kirsk
Jun 1, 2004



PTWP is Jon Snow. But now he's "dead" so the book will have no ending. Does GRRM really think these fake out cliff hangers work? No one thought Arya was really blind. No one thought Brienne was really hung (hur). No one thought Davos really died. He should just stop writting these things and go back to writing about football. Hell he could write a 1000 page book about a fake football season since we're not going to get one this year!

[spoilers]He will totally have the Jets seem like they are going to lose the Super Bowl, but then they will win[/spoilers]

cuddlefish
Nov 11, 2003

That was a game.

This is paintball.


I'm curious if anything's changed because of all the analysis and discussion that occurred between books, e.g. Jon is assumed by everyone to be Rhaegar and Lyanna's love child, and hey Aegon could be alive! Boom, Jon gets shivved and Aegon lives and has the same bloodline. But of course there's no way to tell.

PeterWeller
Apr 20, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.


Solice Kirsk posted:

[spoilers]He will totally have the Jets seem like they are going to lose the Super Bowl, but then they will win[/spoilers]

So it will still be fantasy.

kcroy
May 30, 2002

WILDCARDS BITCHES!


Solice Kirsk posted:

PTWP is Jon Snow. But now he's "dead" so the book will have no ending.

I don't think the series should have an ending per se. If this series wrapped up with 3 major powers regrouping for additional war, it would be awesome.

Wrap up the minor threads, break poo poo down into a "final war" scenario, and leave us with a sense of victory for each major faction (dany / jon / tyrion / others) but with 20 years of winter in the future.

Would leave lots of room for expansion of the IP, and fattymcfuckington wouldn't have to actually write an ending (which I'm pretty sure he is incapable of).

Rednik
Apr 10, 2005




I have a hunch that the ending will involve Dany defeating the Others and taking the throne but the seeds will be planted for her to descend into madness like her father. You catch glimpses of her losing her grip on reality throughout the books.

Contra Calculus
Nov 6, 2009



Rednik posted:

I have a hunch that the ending will involve Dany defeating the Others and taking the throne but the seeds will be planted for her to descend into madness like her father. You catch glimpses of her losing her grip on reality throughout the books.

She's pretty much lost her grip with reality already. Multiple people have told her multiple times that her father was batshit insane and she doesn't believe them because she subscribes to her abusive brother's description of the Targaryens being the best royal family ever. Oh, and she's a total moron for kicking Jorah out because he's the one WHO BASICALLY GOT HER THE GIANT FUCKOFF ARMY SHE HAS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Undead Unicorn
Sep 14, 2010

by Lowtax


Solice Kirsk posted:

PTWP is Jon Snow. But now he's "dead" so the book will have no ending.

I know your joking but he is dead. He might come back as Jon DeadSnow but he won't be Jon Snow anymore. Zombie Gregor doesn't loving surprise sex people like his namesake and Lady Stoneheart is actually competent and interesting unlike her previous self.

Contra Calculus
Nov 6, 2009



Undead Unicorn posted:

I know your joking but he is dead. He might come back as Jon DeadSnow but he won't be Jon Snow anymore. Zombie Gregor doesn't loving surprise sex people like his namesake and Lady Stoneheart is actually competent and interesting unlike her previous self.

I seriously doubt he really dies/is out of the series for good. Even if he does croak after getting stabbed, he'll probably be almost immediately resurrected and not much will change beyond "now Jon is free of the Night's Watch vows. Thanks for reading this entire loving plot of his that went nowhere."

kcroy
May 30, 2002

WILDCARDS BITCHES!


Grrm is a brilliant author.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

nuncle jimbo
Apr 3, 2009



Well at least the books wont end like Lost! I am assured of this!

Solice Kirsk
Jun 1, 2004



I don't know about Jon being dead. I just don't feel it. It would be pretty great if he was gone forever or if Bran wargs into him, but like it has been said before it is a pretty stupid way to get him out of the Night's Watch. But then again having Dany fly away on her Luck Dragon back to the beginning was a dumb way to untie the Meereeneesee Knot©

Kneel Before Zog
Jan 16, 2009

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Any absolutely scathing reviews yet?

Mihi
Feb 20, 2008


Rednik posted:

I don't think Aegon's alive. The guy who says he's Aegon is merely posing. Hence, mummer's dragon.

Varys was a member of some mummers before becoming a eunuch and coming to Westeros so Aegon being raised by Varys would make him the mummer's dragon.

Aurubin
Mar 17, 2011


By his admission the Meerenese Knot was his big problem with ADwD, yet he's solved it by casting Dany even farther away from Westeros. It's kind of ironic that he panned the Lost finale, because I can't see him tying up every loose plot point in two books. At this point I have no idea who of the main characters are going to make it to the end of series.

More questions raised than answered in ADwD.

Ixian
Oct 9, 2001

Many machines on Ix....new machines

Pillbug

Is it more or less a given for this thread that a lot of people have read ADwD now? I know some terrible scans were posted but I imagine it's a matter of time, if it hasn't happened already, before someone does a better job of it and posts a full ePub.

I'm waiting myself, but it seems like book 5 spoilers are popping up here already.

Contra Calculus
Nov 6, 2009



Ixian posted:

Is it more or less a given for this thread that a lot of people have read ADwD now? I know some terrible scans were posted but I imagine it's a matter of time, if it hasn't happened already, before someone does a better job of it and posts a full ePub.

I'm waiting myself, but it seems like book 5 spoilers are popping up here already.

In this thread? Probably not unless you're either German or Austrian. Elsewhere? Yes, it sounds like a lot of people have already read it and have given all the spoilers for it. If you want to avoid them, it might be a good idea to not read this thread.

Fatkraken
Jun 23, 2005

Fun-time is over.

Reading Clash of Kings for the first time, and I gotta say, there's a lot more surprise sex than I was expecting. You guys have made so much of it that I expected the reality to be far toned down but nope, it's everywhere. Off screen thankfully, and usually not referred to by name, but every second soldier and knight seems to have a thing for the unwilling ladies.

Epée
Jun 17, 2003

The Black Goat


ADwD is coming out next week, and it's been 15 years or so since I read AFfC when it came out. Can't remember much of the plot details, but remember it was bad - so don't want to read it all again.

Is there a site / wiki / summary anywhere I can read to be up to speed on everything that happened in the last book?

aBagorn
Aug 26, 2004


Epée posted:

ADwD is coming out next week, and it's been 15 years or so since I read AFfC when it came out. Can't remember much of the plot details, but remember it was bad - so don't want to read it all again.

Is there a site / wiki / summary anywhere I can read to be up to speed on everything that happened in the last book?

http://www.towerofthehand.com and http://awoiaf.westeros.org/ are pretty decent

whowhatwhere
Mar 15, 2010


Solice Kirsk posted:

PTWP is Jon Snow. But now he's "dead" so the book will have no ending. Does GRRM really think these fake out cliff hangers work? No one thought Arya was really blind. No one thought Brienne was really hung (hur). No one thought Davos really died. He should just stop writting these things and go back to writing about football. Hell he could write a 1000 page book about a fake football season since we're not going to get one this year!

I don't think it's a twist so much as a natural ending point. I don't know the full details of what Jon gets up to in aDwD but I hear he's semi-competent and trying to remain a Man of the Night's Watch and then it turns out he's failed horribly because for whatever reason he's lost the faith of a significant portion of his men. The dying isn't the ending point, it's the fact that he'd failed.

With Arya, the going blind bit wasn't really the point other than as a sign things had changed. The ending was her reporting her first pure murder to the Kindly Man or whatever he was called. The blindness was just signalling "oh hey this is going to be the start of the next bit of her story."

SmugDogMillionaire
Oct 27, 2009

by T. Fine


whowhatwhere posted:

I don't think it's a twist so much as a natural ending point. I don't know the full details of what Jon gets up to in aDwD but I hear he's semi-competent and trying to remain a Man of the Night's Watch and then it turns out he's failed horribly because for whatever reason he's lost the faith of a significant portion of his men. The dying isn't the ending point, it's the fact that he'd failed.

I've spoiled myself pretty significantly and the reason he dies is pretty loving depressing. Jon's spent the entire story giving up what he wants/loves for the Night's Watch and the decision that gets him killed is planning to send a force to rescue Arya from the Boltons. Which isn't even really her.

Ray_
Sep 15, 2005

It was like the Colosseum in Rome and we were the Christians." - Bobby Dodd, on playing at LSU's Tiger Stadium


The last line is something like, "Darkness took him and he didn't even feel the 4th dagger." He was with a large group of wildlings and night's watch dudes. I have a feeling some of them stepped in and defended him and took him to safety or some poo poo. It's not a definite death like Catelyn's:

ASOS posted:

"Mad," someone said, "she's lost her wits," and someone else said, "Make an end,"
and a hand grabbed her scalp just as she'd done with Jinglebell, and she thought, No, don't, don't cut my
hair, Ned loves my hair. Then the steel was at her throat, and its bite was red and cold.
I think it's mentioned Jon was stabbbed in the stomach and between the shoulders. Not quite a throat slash or stab to the heart or a beheading. GURM could have easily written something unambiguous like:

quote:

"As the knife slid into his heart and the darkness took him, Jon Snow popped a boner whilst thinking of all the times he peeked through the keyhole to watch Catelyn slip a third finger into the muddy postern gate of Riverrun"

Really, he probably wargs into Ghost and chills there until Bran teaches him how to take over someone else's body.

whowhatwhere
Mar 15, 2010


Then he wargs into Aurane Waters's body and marries Dany and Targ Purity is assured

coyo7e
Aug 23, 2007

by zen death robot


http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/201...apitate-spoiler

He's one baaad mofo.

Confirmation that the book exists: http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/...dragged-in.html

:jealous:

coyo7e fucked around with this message at Jul 6, 2011 around 19:49

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004


Speaking of warg, do we still blame Sam for Maester Aemon's crow shouting "Snow snow snow" during the Lord Commander's election or should we do like everyone else in Westeros and blame everything on Bloodraven?

batomys
Sep 16, 2008



I just powered through the first 4 books in about 2 weeks, and wow, what a huge disappointment A Feast for Crows was. Here I was thinking that 4 books in we'd finally get some real time with the Night's Watch/Wall and more than a cameo from the Others. Looking forward to the next book though, hopefully it won't have another 500 pages of Brienne's travel journal.

Solice Kirsk
Jun 1, 2004



batomys posted:

I just powered through the first 4 books in about 2 weeks, and wow, what a huge disappointment A Feast for Crows was. Here I was thinking that 4 books in we'd finally get some real time with the Night's Watch/Wall and more than a cameo from the Others. Looking forward to the next book though, hopefully it won't have another 500 pages of Brienne's travel journal.

Keep holding your breath on the Others as they still aren't doing poo poo by the end of book five. I think Jon kills one though.

A GLISTENING HODOR
Aug 8, 2009

One of her nipples found its way between his lips. It was pink and hard and when he sucked on it her milk filled his mouth, mingling with the taste of rum, and he had never tasted anything so fine and sweet and good.


After reading the cliffs notes for AFFC and the Tower of the Hand article "what's going on in Oldtown", I realized AFFC isn't some boring mess, it was GRRM being extra-sneaky.

All that poo poo with the Sand Snakes trying to make Myrcella queen, and it not working, isn't because the uncle is a fat crippled pussy, it's because he means to back Dany. And the youngest Sand Snake is masquerading as a man in the Citadel, Jaqen H'ghar is there, and Sam, etc.

Other than Brienne's chapters, the book is secretly about all the non-Stark/Lannister factions wanting a piece of Dany.

I feel dumb for missing it the first time, but I also missed Jon being a Targ.

So all that Dorne, Sam, prologue, Boring Viking poo poo was about Dany, Brienne was a POV for Sandor/BwB/Cat, and Sansa was the camera for the soon-to-be-defunct Littlefinger.

Neat.

E: correction, the article is called "If it's chains you want, come with me"

E2: also, the Golem and the Gravedigger is an excellent read.

A GLISTENING HODOR fucked around with this message at Jul 6, 2011 around 21:45

PeterWeller
Apr 20, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.


That's a good way of looking at it. Expanding a bit further, the book boils down to basically "following" three girls: Dany, Sansa, and Arya. I liked AFfC when I reread it a month or so ago. Even Brienne's chapters were decent; there are so many neat little hints of other things going on.

Ixian
Oct 9, 2001

Many machines on Ix....new machines

Pillbug

The problem with Brienne is A) She's not a very good character - we're reminded seemingly every other page how ugly, stubborn, naive, and awkward she is, with virtually no redeeming qualities outside of her fairly simple-minded view of what constitutes loyalty (and even that is pretty weak, considering she originally was on a different side from the Starks/North). This makes her a hard character to sympathize with, compared to, say, Tyrion, who in some ways is even more hosed by life than Brienne but is a vastly more interesting character. B) She's on a mission for the entire book that the reader knows is completely pointless, as we know exactly where the Stark girls are at all times and C) the traveling circus she meets up with along the way (the Mad Mouse, Pod, random hedge knights) are a spectacularly boring lot. My favorite chapter of hers is when she runs in to Randyl Tarly, because while he may be a gigantic prick he at least has some personality (along with a reason for being a prick - say what you will about him, he knows he's in charge and so does everyone else).

The crappy thing is that, because of the larger story it's wrapped in, it's easy to miss the real point of her chapters, which is to show the effect of the wars on the regular people of Westeros. Looked at in that light, it is a pretty interesting story that does (I think, anyway) add to the series as a whole. You just have to trudge through a lot of seemingly pointless crap to get to it.

My theory (not backed up by evidence) has always been that Martin fattened her chapters up after he realized he was going to cut the non-Westeros stuff out of AFFC. It probably didn't happen that way but it sure feels like it. More likely, he just didn't edit them as hard core as he might have because he had a lot more room in the book post-cut.

Ixian fucked around with this message at Jul 6, 2011 around 22:21

kissyboots13
Feb 16, 2010

WHY is this HAPPENING to me?!


I've been re-reading AFfC this past week and every single time I reach a Brienne chapter, I become overwhelmed with exhaustion and end up either going to bed or taking a nap.

Coincidence? I think not.

Ixian, I think you're totally right and these chapters were beefed up/slapped together to pad the book after Gurm decided he wanted to split the books. God bless the Kindle's chapter-skip button.

PeterWeller
Apr 20, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.


Ixian posted:

The crappy thing is that, because of the larger story it's wrapped in, it's easy to miss the real point of her chapters, which is to show the effect of the wars on the regular people of Westeros. Looked at in that light, it is a pretty interesting story that does (I think, anyway) add to the series as a whole. You just have to trudge through a lot of seemingly pointless crap to get to it.

This, along with the little glimpses of other major characters, is why I still enjoy the Brienne chapters even though I don't particularly like Brienne.

Ixian
Oct 9, 2001

Many machines on Ix....new machines

Pillbug

kissyboots13 posted:

I've been re-reading AFfC this past week and every single time I reach a Brienne chapter, I become overwhelmed with exhaustion and end up either going to bed or taking a nap.

Coincidence? I think not.

Ixian, I think you're totally right and these chapters were beefed up/slapped together to pad the book after Gurm decided he wanted to split the books. God bless the Kindle's chapter-skip button.

Yes, but like I said, you'll miss a lot of good details skipping them. I suspect starting with ADWD we're going to find out that the "common folk", particularly the Warrior's Sons (who are now armed) are going to play a big part in the coming fight(s). Cersei and Brienne's chapters serve as two doors in to that world, along with the how and the why so when the common folk/Warriors Sons eventually rise up (as I fully expect them to do) it won't come out of nowhere.

To me that's the value of both of those women's chapters. Neither one is very likeable, for very different reasons, both of them carry on with tasks that we the reader know to be pointless (maybe less so in Cersei's case, but I think it was made obvious fairly early on that her rule as reagent was going to be short and end badly), and overall they both have primary "arcs" that by themselves aren't that interesting. It's all the background stuff going on in their chapters that really matter to the story. I've always thought it was a weird couple of POV choices and I bet it was a real bitch for him to write.

Edit: I just realized I made a terrible (and awesome) pun with that last sentence

literallyincredible
Oct 23, 2008


quote:

The problem with Brienne is A) She's not a very good character - we're reminded seemingly every other page how ugly, stubborn, naive, and awkward she is, with virtually no redeeming qualities outside of her fairly simple-minded view of what constitutes loyalty (and even that is pretty weak, considering she originally was on a different side from the Starks/North). This makes her a hard character to sympathize with, compared to, say, Tyrion, who in some ways is even more hosed by life than Brienne but is a vastly more interesting character.

I didn't find that to be true at all. She's much more compassionate than most POV characters, and I found the stories of how most men had treated her her entire life, and the way she latches onto the few who show her any kind of kindness no matter ho obviously unavailable they are, to make for a really tragic and interesting mix when combined with her insistence on doing what she perceives as the right thing. I also find her to be a pretty compelling deconstruction of a fantasy archetype that usually doesn't get this kind of scrutiny.

Brienne is a good character trapped in a story that serves a thematic purpose but essentially no plot purpose.

quote:

B) She's on a mission for the entire book that the reader knows is completely pointless, as we know exactly where the Stark girls are at all times

This is true, and is a major failing.

quote:

and C) the traveling circus she meets up with along the way (the Mad Mouse, Pod, random hedge knights) are a spectacularly boring lot. My favorite chapter of hers is when she runs in to Randyl Tarly, because while he may be a gigantic prick he at least has some personality (along with a reason for being a prick - say what you will about him, he knows he's in charge and so does everyone else).

Who the gently caress doesn't like Pod? Pod owns. His stammering of "Ser Milady" kills me every time, although that may just be because I imagine him as Michael Cera circa his Arrested Development years.

A GLISTENING HODOR
Aug 8, 2009

One of her nipples found its way between his lips. It was pink and hard and when he sucked on it her milk filled his mouth, mingling with the taste of rum, and he had never tasted anything so fine and sweet and good.


literallyincredible posted:

I imagine him as Michael Cera circa his Arrested Development years.

Wait, did Michael Cera ever STOP playing that character?

literallyincredible
Oct 23, 2008


No, but it became way more annoying as he got older and didn't mature, just as Pod is currently awesome but will become much less so if he completely fails to grow and is still a stammering nebbish a few years down the line.

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Paper Lion
Dec 13, 2009





So I am sure all you sperglords are gonna get the book and be all "heh it sucks do I get wildcards cred now? HEH " but it's honestly pretty good. Like, miles better than Feast. The jon chapters are interesting, the way he shows how hosed up Meereen ends up is really cool, and yeah Tyrion chapters are somehow the lowpoint but rather than claim it's all bad writing there (some of it can be though I admit) I think that really is more just a testament to how well written the rest of the book is.

Point is, don't be slamming on Dance. I'm not sure if it was worth waiting through 6 years of water damaged calendars, NFL, pizza and Wild Cards bullshit, but it's a drat strong addition to the saga.

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