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What makes Lyanna a stronger candidate to have been the Knight of the Laughing Tree than, say, Howland Reed himself?
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Jul 16, 2011 22:55
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keiran_helcyan posted:Height, having any skill at jousting, financial resources to procure a suit of armor, narrative purpose to give Rhaegar a reason to fall for Lyanna. I really like the idea - it never occurred to me before it was brought up in this thread - and I want to buy it but I'm not sure. Narrative purpose to give Rhaegar a reason to fall for Lyanna isn't something I think is required. We already know that Elia of Dorne is not considered swooningly attractive, and we already know that Lyanna is sufficiently attractive to have preoccupied Robert's attention. We do see a brief and mild suggestion of R+L during the feast when everyone's drinking, dancing, making eyes at each other, etc., when Lyanna cries (okay, "sniffled") over the sad song Rhaegar sings. The issues of height and availability of armor don't rule Howland out, as "the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces". Those pieces he could've borrowed from Benjen, the "pup" who offered the loan of horse and armor; the crannogman "thanked him, but gave no answer", i.e., didn't refuse the offer. He went to pray on it, instead, to the same gods whose likeness the Knight of the Laughing Tree subsequently (consequently?) takes for his impresa. It's to these northern powers that Meera seems to credit the Knight's success / the answering of the crannogman's prayer ("the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?" doesn't suggest any wolves or new friends). There is the matter of skill at jousting, but Lyanna's fighting skill has been framed as analogous to Arya's. It's easier to arrange for fencing lessons than it is to arrange for practice at tilting, a pretty conspicuous activity, unless Rickard Stark was even more supportive of women taking up the arts of war than was Ned. Why does Jojen think Ned must have told Bran him the story? Ned, the "quiet wolf" whose tentmate the little crannogman becomes, would have to know about the Knight's identity if the Knight were Howland. (He's also Howland Reed's comrade in arms later on, notably at the Tower of Joy from which they're both the only ones to return. Reed is not an insignificant figure in Ned's life.) It's both a chivalric folktale and a piece of Ned's personal history, which might make it an especially apt tale for Ned to tell his sons. While it doesn't seem likely that Jojen would expect his father's past to be an important part of the Stark children's education, it also doesn't seem likely that Jojen would expect Ned Stark to tell R+L=J bedtime stories. So I'm on the fence, there. So yeah, I like the idea that Lyanna is the Knight. But I'm not completely convinced. I am going to sound like a  here, but given the weirwood material in ADwD, it seems likeliest to me that the Bloodraven warged into Howland Reed by invitation/prayer and allowed him to kick rear end in the joust using borrowed horse and armor. The impresa of the weirwood would then be a very literal sign of the Knight's identity.
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Jul 17, 2011 00:55
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keiran_helcyan posted:Dude, it's a fantasy book series, not a CSI investigation where we can use genetic testing to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Lyanna Stark was the true Knight. WHATEVER DO YOU MEAN :catelyn: keiran_helcyan posted:The whole chapter-long flashback takes on a lot bigger significance if it gives us the origin of R+L=J rather than just a cool adventure Howland once went on. See, I think it has a much bigger significance than that, given that it's a story told to Bran, if it's a story not about R+L=J but about what Bran is going to / could possibly do and become.
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Jul 17, 2011 01:59
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Xander77 posted:Did you really read Bran going "Well duh, it was Howland Reed" and go "oh yeah, that totally makes sense, and won't be ironically subverted because GRRM never does that"? Yes! Also, Stannis is Azor Ahai. Seriously (as serious as GRRMplottalk can be), if Brynden Rivers / "the last greenseer" was able to answer Howland Reed's prayer and use his body to defeat the mean guys in the tournament, this would be a story directly relevant to Bran. Who can warg into Summer and Hodor. And who wants more than anything to be a knight, and is instead a cripple who doesn't know yet what all this greenseer stuff is supposed to be good for. Put this together with the Varamyr Sixskins prologue in ADWD and the Bran chapter where he first sees and speaks through the weirwood, and I think there may be some temptation for Bran down the road. There's already plenty of R+L=J significance to the tourney at Harrenhal, in various POVs and in Meera's story itself, without needing to identify the Knight of the Laughing Tree as Lyanna.
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Jul 17, 2011 04:02
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Comrade Flynn posted:Just finished. Pretty much had the same opinion as everyone else. I'm pretty concerned Martin has become Robert Jordan Jr. and no longer has any idea how to move the plot forward in a meaningful way. This. This was my reaction exactly. Especially with regard to just about any Essos-related chapter.
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Jul 17, 2011 04:10
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The talk of Bloodraven inspired me to find and read "The Mystery Knight". Now THIS is the GRRM I know and love! an absolute fucker posted:"Look," said Ser Kyle the Cat. "The wedding pie."  New theory: Hot Pie is descended from the Butterwells. He just has to be.
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Jul 26, 2011 01:40
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NihilCredo posted:Not really, any stopping point short of having Davos bring Rickon back to White Harbour would have felt at least as unsatisfactory. I would've been content with a single Skagos chapter, as long as it included the requisite cannibals astride shaggy goat-like unicorns. At this point I envision Skagos as being something like Fort Lauderdale during spring break, substituting cannibals and unicorns for the frat boys and scantily clad co-eds. Davos may have difficulty persuading Rickon to leave. We know from Bran's visions that Shaggydog is having the time of his life.
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Aug 14, 2011 02:57
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Dirty Job posted:He's so good at assassinating people even he doesn't know who killed them. Theon didn't kill those people. Tyler Durden did it. They are not the same person ... OR ARE THEY?
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Aug 16, 2011 03:54
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niethan posted:A mute ironman hid in a tree and followed Rickon and that wildling chick. Apparently he is at some really bad place. Something to do with cannibalism if i recall correctly? Hedrigall posted:Skagos I.e., the awesomest place. 
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Aug 25, 2011 23:46
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Fog Tripper posted:I am also beginning to suspect that the books are actually being written by WILDCARDS! authors, one for each POV, none knowing what the others are writing in relation to their character, and the completed book is being edited by gurm prior to handing over to the real editors. This is my favorite theory. For reals.
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Sep 29, 2011 23:55
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How did I fail to make the connection before? SAMWELL. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbGkxcY7YFU
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Oct 4, 2011 02:04
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Simon Draskovic posted:Make it a Strange Streets Christmas!
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Oct 12, 2011 03:54
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Speaking of important themes in the series, I am learning new things about ASOIAF from Access Hollywood.quote:While one of Cersei’s brothers is in King’s Landing, the other – her twin and lover — Jamie Lannister, is now in the hands of The Starks and Lena said that does funny things to her character. Cersei and Jaime: SLIGHTLY incestuous.
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Oct 18, 2011 01:44
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neongrey posted:It's the way she's brought up. You know, getting pulled away from him after getting caught is childhood approval of incest. My only theory to explain Lena Headey's take on Cersei's upbringing is that maybe the screenwriters needed to combine some more characters, and had to merge Tywin with Craster.
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Oct 18, 2011 02:11
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NihilCredo posted:Pretty sure she's referring to Cersei/Lancel as the "slightly incestuous" relationship. That'd make more sense if the Cersei/Lancel relationship were going to continue into Season 2, I suppose. (IIRC the relationship didn't continue past Robert's death in the books, but this is TV, so maybe they'll get Ros the Exposition Whore to spice up their assignations and keep the flame burning a little longer?) The way the reporter has laid out the conversation, she's referring specifically to Jaime's captivity by the Starks making Jaime all crazy, but anyone who's worked on even a college paper knows that editors can move paragraphs around without the slightest regard for actual sense, so. Still wouldn't explain "it's the way she was brought up", of course.
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Oct 18, 2011 02:35
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IRQ posted:The amount of smug he manages to convey in that image is truly a thing to behold. I want this to happen. Salman Rushdie: "At least my FANS didn't declare a fatwa on me.  "
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Oct 21, 2011 22:36
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