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hypocrite lecteur
Aug 21, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Hannibal Rex posted:

And at the rate he's moving the plot forward in Dance, there's no way in hell he'll finish in two more books.

I think most people pretty much assumed that without ever even seeing the new book

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hypocrite lecteur
Aug 21, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Kindle says I'm about 25% through, and not impressed so far. We finally get some Bran chapters again, but woops, for everyone bran chapter where he's adventuring in the unknown and there's actually danger and dramatic tension it's a bunch more boring loving bullshit travelogues interspersed with Dany being inert and awful in some awful Iraq analogue. Enjoyable stuff fat man, thanks

hypocrite lecteur
Aug 21, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Also I never thought I'd want to see a Sansa chapter but now that she's actually reaching the zenith of her arc over the course of 4 books it might actually be interesting compared to an interior monologue of "hmm should I be a decisive leader who makes hard choices or a spoiled indolent child who lays around having sex all day?? time to tie up my dragons in a hole, brb"

hypocrite lecteur
Aug 21, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post


finished it today. Entertaining in some parts, boring in others. Really inefficient and needlessly sprawling narrative, overuse of cliffhangers. Finding it increasingly difficult to care about most of the book's characters. Better than AFFC, worse than the others

edit: Honestly, now that I think of it, basically every PoV ended on a cliffhanger or question mark of a sort.

Jaime - Goes off with Brienne, Sansa has been taken by the hound? Except probably not?
Bran - Starting to train? Safe, maybe not? His friends probably going to die in the snow? Summer possibly going to be murdered by a warg ghost?
Davos - Going off somewhere? Who knows?
Jon - Dead possibly? Melisandre going to breathe life into him, or going to live out his life as Ghost?
Cersei - Going to seize power again? Maybe not?
Stannis / Asha / Theon - Dead and in pieces in the snow somewhere? Maybe not?
Dany - going to feed a khalasar to her dragon? hopefully going to get shot with an arrow before Drogon can react?
Manse - dead? probably not? who knows?
Barristan - probably going to die when a plague corpse lands on him?

Basically the only characters we know about to any degree of certainty are Aegon, Victarion, Varys, and Arya. Someone ought to notify the fat man that "WHAT HAPPEN TO OUR HERO?? TUNE IN SAME BAT TIME, SAME BAT CHANNEL" loses its effect when it's the only way you know to build dramatic tension. ALso when you use the same gimmick for five thousand-page books.


literallyincredible posted:

That said, I will agree with Martin on one thing...

One way or another, the story of this period had to be told. Maybe it could have had less Brienne, and the Ironborn could have easily been cut down to one POV, and the Dorne stuff could have been cut a bit...

But by and large, most of this was not timeskippable stuff. If book 4 had started up, "Its several years later. Jon was stabbed to death, Dany is down to one dragon and no army, Aegon is back and invading, Stannis may or may not be dead fighting the Boltons, Bran is a super warg and Arya is a super assassin and Sam's probably learning wizard poo poo in oldtown, etc. etc."

I, and I think nearly every other fan of the books, would have absolutely called bullshit on that as the next step following Storm. As it is, I bought it. I buy Jon and Dany's respective downfalls, and the various levels in badass the other kids are taking, and even the Aegon thing. But thats only because Martin put the reader in there and shows us how it happened.

If he just skipped ahead so that Book 4 began where Book 6 now will? No, that wouldn't have worked at all, he was definitely right about that.

If he was a better storyteller a lot of this stuff could easily be in a gap. Some of it deserves narrative focus, but a lot of it could be related indirectly through dialogue and inference. Of course, that would leave a lot less page space for the details of guys warging out to get hosed by wolves, surprise sex and torture porn, travelogues, and Dany's indecisive waffling and whining, so I guess it's just not possible

hypocrite lecteur fucked around with this message at Jul 17, 2011 around 02:48

hypocrite lecteur
Aug 21, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post


theblackw0lf posted:

True, I can't think of another fantasy writer who can write snappy dialog and has the world-building aspect that Martin does.

I don't know if you guys are trolling or serious when you say stuff like this. Is your position honestly that GRRM tells stories in a way that stands head & shoulders above other writing and that if he died no one could take his place

hypocrite lecteur
Aug 21, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Scoobi posted:

Am I the only one optimistic that now that he is past his little knot that the books are going to come out much faster? He no longer has to worry about mereen and hbo is gonna be on his rear end and he put out SOS and ACOK pretty fast.

No not really? Mereen is basically a tacit admission that he's making it all up as he goes along and isn't thinking particularly hard about the consequences of various narrative choices. I don't have any faith that the plot will be finished in a satisfying or efficient way or that, looking forward, the series will be better managed than it has to this point. If you do, well, good for you

hypocrite lecteur
Aug 21, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post


EC posted:

Isn't it implied that the Iron Bank has resources to make princes and kings disappear? I still can't believe Cersei told that dude to gently caress off back to the Free Cities.

Cersei defaulting on the Iron Bank loans, arming the priesthood, and alienating the Tyrells are three facially obvious "she's going to regret this" mistakes, and she makes them at full speed

hypocrite lecteur
Aug 21, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Xander77 posted:

A) A better prose writer than Tolkien isn't even praise to be damned with.


No poo poo. I don't know the answer to "man this guy's writing could use some polish" is "well, he's better than most fantasy writers!"

Hey great, he's better than the guys who write dime store check out stuff with dragons and busty maidens on the front. He's also probably better than (most? all?) fan fic writers.

Xander77 posted:


B) Can anyone explained what's going on with the guards in Quentyn's final chapter? The first couple stand aside, but the others fight. What's up with that?

Barristan and the leader (Shazkakakha? or whatever?) sent their own guys to secure the dragons as a part of the coup, and they knew that Quentyn and his group weren't a part of the plan

hypocrite lecteur
Aug 21, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post


The clock is ticking on the Freys. No way they make it out alive. Big fat soft Manderly hates them so much he turned them into food. And they have the Greatjon imprisoned. They either: let him out (and he kills them) or kill him (and the Umbers don't leave a stone standing on top of another stone where the Twins used to be). Littlefinger has cause to hate them, their allies the Lannisters are on their way out and I'm not sure where the Freys stand w/r/t the Tyrells. They're propped up by the Boltons right now, who are also surrounded by as many enemies as they are friends with the winter on its way.

They're toast

edit: There's a fair amount of talk throughout the books about the Umbers being a fairly strong force in the north. The Freys made an explicit point of making sure that the Greatjon was captured during the Red Wedding to ensure their loyalty, from which it seems a fair inference that the Freys are cautious or afraid of the Umbers. Also, if Jon got his way / Stannis listens to him, they'll be given Winterfell if it's retaken

hypocrite lecteur fucked around with this message at Jul 18, 2011 around 18:44

hypocrite lecteur
Aug 21, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Also, when Stannis talks about marching south, Jon tells him not to march through the Umber's lands without making friends with them first or he won't make it. I don't think they're a huge power, but they're not a minor house

edit: someone mentioned earlier in the thread that Stannis knew, or had been alerted to, the karstarks being treacherous. Is that the case? I don't remember anything along those lines

hypocrite lecteur
Aug 21, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post


I don't think there were any mentions of Loras in ADWD. I didn't really think that his injuries were faked -- him having a deathwish and recklessly storming the keep seems pretty plausible, I think he's still pretty wrecked over Renly's death. It's possible it was a lie to take him off the board for a bit, though.

hypocrite lecteur
Aug 21, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post


showbiz_liz posted:


EDIT: God the TVIV thread is so frustrating. "Cersei sent that assassin right?" "No. I mean, um, not necessarily!" "Well who else could it be? Oooh it was Littlefinger right?" "No, um, I mean, maybe but, er, probably not..." Just stop arguing with them already guys, there is no way to argue this point effectively without straight-up saying "YOU FIND OUT WHO IT IS IN A LATER BOOK AND IT'S NOT WHO YOU THINK"

In fairness, there's like 0 evidence in the show to point to who it could be, Littlefinger or Cersei or pretty much whoever you'd want to name are just as good a guesses as Joffrey

hhhmmm posted:

The events leading up to Jon's death didn't make much sense though. Suddenly there is a plot-issue where GRRM wants Jon dead, and so Jon takes a sudden lapse into retardness. In ways he has previously been shown to be quite capable.

2nd Stark in a row to get taken down by ignoring his wolf. "Hm, my big magical wolf has suddenly stopped trusting the people around me. God, you stupid animal, go sit in a locked room while I go off with my friends! Stop growling and barking what's wrong with you oh god the stabbing aaa"

hypocrite lecteur
Aug 21, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post


VaultAggie posted:

Speaking of dragons, do we have any idea how big they are at this point?

There's a lot of talk about how they don't really stop growing as long as they have room and food, and about the black dragon back in the day putting armies in shadow with his wingspan

who knows though

hypocrite lecteur
Aug 21, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post


What he has planned for the hostages is explicitly spelled out in one of the PoVs. He makes a promise to one of the merc companies that if they infiltrate & get the hostages back he'll give them a reward. This was before the plague corpses thing, the hostages are probably toast, but who knows? GRRM is a bad writer and the only method of dramatic tension he knows is the cliffhanger so we'll literally get to wait 6 years to find out

hypocrite lecteur
Aug 21, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Why does Tyrion keep telling people he killed joffrey? Just because he doesn't care and it's going to be laid at his feet anyways? The evidence points to the Tyrells otherwise doesn't it

hypocrite lecteur
Aug 21, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post


I still don't understand even a little bit about how Mereen was difficult to write or resolve at all.

hypocrite lecteur
Aug 21, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post


So what? Dany doesn't get mentioned for the first 3/4 of the book, we hear whispers about how the Saviour of The Slaves is dead and her dragons went nuts and ate a bunch of people, and she shows up in Westeros suddenly with a ragged group of followers and three wild dragons being like "whoo I flew all the way here boy my arms are tired!!" Knot solved. GRRM does that exact same kind of poo poo all the time to move the plot along. The way it was actually (kind of) resolved wasn't anymore satisfying -- she literally just flies on out, peace yall. are you serious?

it's not even like just skipping the whole thing would effect tyrion or quentyn or victarian's arcs at all. he was happy enough to send Brienne around on a multi-chapter hunt for Sansa when we know that she's not going to find her

hypocrite lecteur
Aug 21, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post


NihilCredo posted:

I'm going to break a lance in defence of Dany's decision to dismiss Jorah. First, he was useful but no longer irreplaceable: she had plenty of sword arms at that point, and Ser Barristan was going to be a much better advisor on all things Westerosi. Secondly, go and reread his dismissal scene: he behaves with pretty much the opposite of Barristan's sincerity and humility, it would have been hard for Dany to forgive him without looking weak and inciting more treachery (Though, I believe that that is also a good example of why discipline is best served in private - in public your hand is easily forced). And thirdly, he's got a solid curriculum of doing foolish things for love, how could Dany knew that he wouldn't one day make some more? Had he stuck around, I could totally see him attempting to murder both Daario and Hizdahr, which as a reader would certainly have pleased me incomparably, but which is decidedly not what Dany wants.

Counter-point; in a series where loyalty is a very rare and precious trait, and in Dany's case, where she's got a superstar thing going on and really can't trust the people around her, she got rid of a guy who saved her from an assassin, saved her dragon's eggs, protected her when Drogo was dying, and was absolutely, unswervingly loyal to her, like she was scraping a bit of poo poo off of her shoe

edit: I mean, really. He could have let her dumb rear end die and gone home pardoned, which is all he wants, and he didn't. He put her life over his own interests. How often does that happen in the series. and she's like "hurr burr you're not my handsome foreign mercenary I no like you "

hypocrite lecteur fucked around with this message at Jul 22, 2011 around 19:17

hypocrite lecteur
Aug 21, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Well here's hoping she gets murdered at her own personal Red Wedding that could have been avoided if she hadn't split idiot hairs about "ugh he saved me from that assassin but he LIED about why!!" and I don't have to read her boring rear end povs anymore

hypocrite lecteur
Aug 21, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Limp Wristed Limey posted:

Maybe he should plunge the sword into his daughter instead, she does sound a bit of a mong.

Nice, lil bit of the ol' casual racism to spice things up.

hypocrite lecteur
Aug 21, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post


I for one hope that little nig Tyrion gets what's coming to him.

What? Racism? Me?

hypocrite lecteur
Aug 21, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Limp Wristed Limey posted:

Haha sorry to break it to you but sometimes words have different meanings in different countries. You will have to take off your Captain Anti-Racist costume now

Heh. Sorry you found that offensive thing I said about a disabled character offensive. Try being European, mayhaps??

hypocrite lecteur
Aug 21, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post


The Aberrant posted:

Jesus Christ this book's ending was disappointing. Just as things are starting to ramp up, welp sorry dudes gotta wait another 6 years for any closure. We've got Stannis who may or may not be dead, Jon who may or may not be dead, Dany who's just been located, Tyrion who's started cooking up some scheme, and those are just a few amongst the many plot threads which he couldn't be bothered to tie up.

Goddammit George.

He's a bad writer and incapable of building dramatic tension other than "IS YOUR FAVOURITE CHARACTER DEAD? BUY MY NEXT BOOK AND FIND OUT!" if you don't like it at this point pull the cord on the series bro

hypocrite lecteur
Aug 21, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post


There's been five books leading up to winter, each purporting to build a sense of dread and fear about what a harrowing and trying thing winters are for Westeros, in many places it's been hinted that this will be an especially dark and long one

can't wait to see how that's handled within the course of one book. dany isn't even in westeros yet. grrm has no idea what he's doing in the series.

hypocrite lecteur
Aug 21, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Chainsawdomy posted:

Oh I have no problem with Roose(well, he's a terrible person, but I mean as a character). I'm perfectly in favor of him as an extended villain over the course of several books. Ramsay on the other hand, just makes me roll my eyes.

In general though, I loved the Theon chapters. Theon has always been one of my favorite characters, and watching him screw himself over in CoK as he desperately tried to prove himself to his father was more painful for me than the Red Wedding. He's so broken now that I can only really hope for him to redeem himself before a merciful death. Then again, I'm more-than-typically horrified by the loss of body parts, particularly the teeth and (perhaps) genitals.

My PRIMARY complaint with the book was the lack of resolution on 2/3 of the main threads. And before anyone accuses me of just wanting bullet points of plot, I understand that there's two books left to resolve the over-arching story. What I find remarkable is that Martin didn't feel the need to resolve the conflicts which act as the crux of this particular volume. You can get away with cliff-hangers when people are going to get to tune in next week, or next season (and I frankly dislike the latter). It's a little irresponsible to write checks you can't cash for at least two years. Specifically, I'm talking about the siege of Meereen and the march on Winterfell. I'm counting Jon's storyline as the resolved one, as his chapters build up quite nicely to his attempted assassination. With the other two, however, the book is effectively saying "This is what you should care about, this is the point of this installment in the series" and then sweeping its own legs by not addressing that point.

There's more cliffhangers than there are definite or knowable storylines right now and it's because he doesn't know how to build dramatic tension otherwise. It's been a problem throughout the series and is getting worse.

Also no one could criticize you if you DID have hesitations about there being another two books or whatever because there's no loving way that the series will finish in two books at anything even close to the current rate

Rapey Joe Stalin posted:


Of all the unjustified and downright idiotic complaining in regards to this latest book, the one thing that really stood head and shoulders above the rest for me was the complaint about GRRM using "whilst" and "amongst".
If you have a problem with those two words you really really need to improve your vocabulary. Because you are dumb.

yeah it's not that they're out of place anachronisms in a book mostly written in common day vernacular it's just that people are so "dumb" that they haven't seen the word "whilst" before. you are the one who is smart. you are smarter than all of us.

Guys why are you complaining about him using forsooth and fortnight? They're real words!! *links relevant wikipedia page, leans way back in chair, eats a lil bit of glue*

"whilst" loving sticks out because it sounds like something a person decrying "the stupids" on an internet messageboard would pride himself on using and not something an actual professional writer who worries about things like "rhythm" and "sound" and "meaning" would use. complaining about it isn't contrived or stupid at all sorry

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

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hypocrite lecteur
Aug 21, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post


If the tales coming up the kingsroad could be believed, the King's Hand had been murdered by his dwarf son whilst sitting on a privy.

She could carry the sadness of the moment with her that way forever, see the world refracted through those tears, those specific tears, as if indices as yet unfound varied in important ways from cry to cry.

use of language, pretty much a wash. grrm, master of English and of "whilst"

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