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bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


My quote finally became the thread title and then the goddamn book had to come out and the thread got closed. gently caress your impeccable timing, gurmsire.

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bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


My amazon ordered shipped, I am filled with a mixture of trepidation and excitement, and a craving for pizza, but not that chicago deep dish poo poo.

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


Finished.... My full analysis is coming but gently caress the 'leal' poo poo and the cliffhangers... Halfway through the book and you leave Davos lookin for Rickon and never pick it back up? Also Dany is dumb as gently caress.

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


The biggest of cliffhangers... Will Ser Balon Swann find Darkstar?!? Most epic showdown in the series and it will be offscreen.

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


I like Malazan but do we must needs to have a discussion about its alleged post-modernism and meta-narrative in this thread? ASOIAF and Malazan feel completely different in terms of narrative, characters, language and so forth and they really aren't comparable.

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


My thoughts on ADWD after a day to formulate an opinion:

First I want to discuss the pacing and structure of the plot. I don't really remember how the past books handled cliffhangers and such but it seemed like there were way too many throughout ADWD. There are so many plot threads being juggled right now, and most of them are in completely different locations and it gets kind of annoying when every chapter ends on a cliffhanger only to be picked up again eight chapters later, or NOT AT ALL FOR THE REST OF THE BOOK. Bran and Davos were the worst offenders but Bran is boring and static at the moment, but Davos, really? I thought that since there was over half a book left that he would have another chapter but nope.

Another problem I had with the structure was that a lot of cool stuff happened just off screen. Something is about to happen, then BAM cliffhanger and then we pick up that thread later after said event is over, usually from another POV. The one that really bothered me was Theon jumping off the wall as the Manderlys and Freys are going out to battle, drums are beating, the shieldwives are getting sliced, Mance is trapped in the hall... and then cut to black. All of a sudden the Braavosi dude pops up later with Theon and Jeyne Poole and Asha is like shiiiit my brother got hosed up.... then cut to black and they are never heard from again directly. Same with the Dany flying a dragon scene, she jumps on it and the chapter is over and we find out shes missing. There was way too much sitting around chatting, then when the action comes its offscreen. Quentyn Martell catches fire and the chapter ends, or the slavers' ship is approaching and Jorah is ready to fight and the scene ends and next chapter they are being sold. Really? Tyrion can waste six pages wishing he was drunk and talking to Penny about bullshit but the storm is two paragraphs, days lost at sea is a sentence, and actually being taken by slavers is not shown.

Must needs, leal, neeps, 'biggest breasts ever seen' and 'WHERE DO WHORES GO' were overused and obnoxious.

Most of the POVs are really good, especially Theon. Barristan Selmy is a beast. He stands around thinking about his failures and really wants to help the situation in Meereen, but he has to rationalize within his honor code as a knight what he can and cannot do. Just an old bro who just wants to train his boys and protect his queen and she keeps loving up. He has a really cool view on things.

Tyrion needs to stop being all emo about his 'lovely' life, his wit still made the chapters entertaining and the river stuff was cool, but I don't need to read him fit in at least one jape about killing Tywin into every conversation, and asking everybody where whores go. Also, I don't get why they passed under the bridge twice in the Sorrows, was that explained?

Victarion is a badass, he goes along with every religion just to cover his bases while he burns and drowns people left and right.

Quentyn had a sad plotline, I was rooting for him to succeed because Dorne rules, but sadly there was no place for naive heroics in this series.

Jaime's chapter was good but unnecessary in this particular book.

I thought the dichotomy between Jon/Dany (and Aegon to a lesser extent but he wasn't the one making decisions) was really interesting. They both find themselves in positions of power and must make decisions that affect lots of people, and they are both young and relatively unexperienced. Jon keeps working to bolster the Wall's defenses and to prepare for winter by making mostly good decisions (and a couple bad ones) while trying to both appease Stannis/Selyse and keep the Watch's neutrality. Dany on the other hand fucks everything up. I'm not even going to talk about Daario. You can't just smash the cornerstone of an entire region's economy and assume that the formerly prosperous are going to roll over and take it. When your people are being butchered in the street every night, you don't slap the obviously involved nobles on the wrist and hope they will suddenly understand that slavery is a morally unsound practice and do what you want. You need to play hardball, but she doesn't listen and instead marries one of their loving leaders while at least two people (Xaro, Quentyn) give you a great reason to leave and go do what really matters, you know, taking Westeros back, but instead she sits there and tries to change an entire culture while armies swarm all over and everyone is dying of disease.

But in the end both Jon and Dany can't overcome the resistance to change, and pay severely for it. Maybe. Jon will be rezzed but he gets shanked even though he did a pretty good job, while Dany did a poo poo job and will probably get another army of Dothraki because of it. That's just how Dany rolls.

I really liked the book though.

BTW Tony Danza Claus I actually do like Chicago Deep Dish but I was tryin to be like my hero grom

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


hampig posted:

If you haven't read the old books recently and can't remember stuff like this fair enough, but it's safe to say that in the first 3 books (including Storm, which everyone agrees is badass) there are shitloads of cliffhangers, not just at the end, and plenty of significant stuff happens offscreen (one of the biggest advantages of the POV structure, and easily the thing that rewards careful readers/rereads the most).

Maybe 6 years of waiting have led you to expect more resolution or maybe your tastes have changed, but really these two things are hallmarks of the series it seems a little unfair to expect them to change halfway through. It's really just a side effect of so many concurrent threads/POVs.

It has been been a while so maybe I'm not being completely fair. Youre right that it might have to do with how many plot threads are dangling and most are fairly important (also bring split into two books), and so the way its put together doesn't feel like a cohesive whole. And who knows when the next part will come. GoT was a lot more localized in scope so I think it works better at the individual book level.

Although to me AFFC/ADWD doesnt feel like Wheel of Time books 7-9 filler because there is a sense of importance to most of the chapters and you can actually see the effect on the characters and the world. Brienne might be pushing the limit though in a plot sense because of the utter lack of tension.


hampig posted:

I read Jon's story at least a little differently. As long as he acted in the interests of the Night's Watch, he could make drastic changes, he could make bad decisions and his people would grudgingly fall into line. Then he discards his flimsy shield of honor, and the people around him no longer see any reason to put up with it. I think he was doing just fine, making decisions where the none of them were easy, changing enough that the Watch stands a fighting chance at having some warning of the Others. But after asking for the trust of everyone who stood for him and followed him, he stands up and announces he plans to break his oath, for real this time. I find it very hard to defend.

At least the part about Stannis in the letter is almost certainly a blatant lie.

That last decision seemed kind of out of character for Jon. Of all the things hes faced, this is what makes him break his neutrality and oath? The letter basically says Ramsay doesnt have Arya so its not like he is.going to save her. I'm sure the wildlings would go to rescue Mance anyway so Jon didn't really need to go himself.

hampig posted:

That's the luxury of having dragons, provided you actually remember that you are Mother of Dragons.

Lucky bitch. I hope Vicky jacks those dragons soon.

Summer Islanders are sweet too. Tall Trees Town, swan ships, sweet rear end bows... where are the islands though? And Ibben? All they seem to do though is whale.

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


Scoobi posted:

Am I the only one optimistic that now that he is past his little knot that the books are going to come out much faster? He no longer has to worry about mereen and hbo is gonna be on his rear end and he put out SOS and ACOK pretty fast.

Yes, because he still has to worry about Meereen, he didn't resolve anything there. I can see Dany being changed from her shitberry sojourn, Barristan loving up the Yunkers after the Dornish free the slaves and Tyrion turns the sellswords, and Victarion whisking them all away to Westeros. But thats like best case scenario.

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


Once you take away the long wait (which wouldnt be so bad if he didnt write the "Meanwhile, Back at the Wall..." And blog about football) its a solid book, the definition of a page turner, has interesting themes, and is better than, and even at its lowest at least on the same level as most of the other fantasy out there.

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


Robert Strong going to demolish a person, Tormund talks about his cock some more

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


EvilTobaccoExec posted:

I thought Dance with Dragons turned out great, but I agree it could really use a climactic scene for even just one of the plot threads. Either give us Dany's destruction of the Yunkai, defense of her city, or eventful departure for Westeros, or give us the Stannis-Bolton Winter Fell battle or expand our window into the night of Barristan's revolt.


As weak as CoK is, the assault on King's Landing was terrific and we haven't had a big set piece like that in awhile. Feels like in the last two books Martin has over relied on the same formula for big events: build up to the inciting moment and later cut to a little while after everything settles down. What I love about that King's Landing battle was the multiple, scattered, semi-concurrent narratives of the different characters--Tyrion, Sansa, Davos--and their unique experiences providing an encompassing, tense, epic perspective into the invasion.

This is what I meant to say in my wildcards effortpost. Spot on how I felt.

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


FairGame posted:

It's hostages. They specifically say "all six."

There were 7, except the admiral got his head lopped off prior to that.

e: removed the rest; I don't understand how this thread works

I thought it was hostages because of the "all six" but if you recall all the relatives of the king got returned already (obviously meaning he is in on the whole thing) so there are only like 3 left... Daario, (hope he dies) the Unsullied Hero, and Jhogo the bloodrider. So I think its just plaguebodies.

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


Ecco the Dolphin posted:

The worst character is clearly every Meereenese, I thought we'd been over this.

Hizdahr no Grazdar was unashamedly using Dany for the throne, the Green Grace is obviously in on it and I don't know why Dany trusts her. Everyone in the city knows its all just a sham to get rid of Dragonbitch, except Dany. THE PEACE is all just pretext while they decide how to get rid of her anyway, and everyone knows that too but her. If it weren't for widespread bloodshitting the Yunkers and traitors would have taken the city already.

Dany is dense as gently caress.

~my Daario~

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


meanolmrcloud posted:

You all are pissed at dany now, but holy jesus is her dragonriding rear end gonna be sweet at the head of a screaming horde pinning the yunkai to the sea to get slaughtered by victarion. The next book will probably be better than Storm.

I wish, but nothing Dany has ever done has been sweet (except for eating a heart) and nothing ever will.

Everyone else around does cool stuff though. At least Jorah, Belwas, and Barristan.

Maybe Joffrey was on to something. Dany's "weak womans heart" leads her to do stupid poo poo in the name of compassion.

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


The banker is a wizard.

Mantarys sounds pretty cool too, wonder what they mean by "monsters".

Dragons are cool but once they can be controlled they seem too unstoppable and I've always wondered how George is going keep them from being a bunch of deus ex machina. So far they have been kept in line with the feel of the series and the rest of the world, but I don't see how they can be defeated. I wonder how the maesters pulled it off back in the day. Someone in Meereen says their only weak poiny is the eyes, so dany should fit them with some sweet steampunk goggles.

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


I feel like some people would be more satisfied with a pagelong bullet list to finish the series.

Yeah it meanders a bit but its interesting to see just how everything comes together, and of course character growth and overarching themes.

Jorahs nipple ring vindicated that useless saying, I smiled when I read it.

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


Tyrion looks like a geico caveman. Melisandre is the best one but to be honest the almost photorealistic faces disturbs me a bit.

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


Neurosis posted:

I wonder if the Others are purely a Westeros threat.

I was wondering this too, I think they are, nobody else seems to give a gently caress. Along the same lines, does winter hit as hard across the sea as well? They don't seem to be as worried about it over there but Braavos is pretty far north in any case.

As the series goes on you start to see how big the world really is. Yeah, Dany's always been over there but for the most parts its just names of port cities and islands. ADWD especially brings a bigger world view into focus, and most of the poo poo in Westeros really doesn't matter in the big picture, especially since Westeros doesn't factor in the slave trade anyway. No matter who is on the Iron Throne, the Lyseni are still going to be manufacturing sex slaves. Thats's where whore come from, but where do they go?

I went from just watching the show where Theon is a smug douche but still a chill guy, to reading about him as a hobbled old not-man, so I just felt bad for him.

Did you guys see that they are changing Asha's name in the show to Yara? I get the confusion with Osha but why change the name of the one that actually does things? Did they even mention Osha's name in the book? Not to mention Yara sounds like Arya anyway.

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


edit: beaten, but eh

Limp Wristed Limey posted:

I just dont understand Doran Martells strategy with sending Quentyn to Daenarys.

"Ok Quentyn, I have this really old marriage pact that is not even for yourself and her, but you should try and make her marry you. Oh, we know nothing about her except she has been taking over cities and she may be insane like her dad. If you cant get her to marry you, steal one of her dragons.
We know very little about dragons but I am sure you will be able to tame the deadliest creature in the world. I expect you to be flying over on a dragon in a couple of months time. Please dont breathe near me it is affecting my gout."

Am I missing something? For someone who is supposed to be a great thinker and ponderous, sending Quentyn is downright retarded.

Well I don't think solo dragontaming was ever part of the plan, because it was quite a retarded thing to do. Bold, but retarded. If Q couldn't marry her then he was at least supposed to bring her back with him. How could they expect that she was perfectly content sitting around with every pro-slavery power in the world sending an army after her, her own subjects being murdered in the street, and having literally no economy at all? I guess Doran wasn't expecting her to be... Well Dany.

What was her plan for Westeros, anyway? Try for it in a decade when the 7K are reunited under a single banner again in the middle of winter?

Should have taken Xaro's offer. Or skipped Slaver's Bay entirely.

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


Taking hostages is worthless if they call your bluff and you can't follow.through on your threats.

Its interesting to think about what would have happened if Drogon hadn't swooped in. Would they have realized the locusts were poisoned? Hizdahr kind of got lucky on that one, for a moment at least.

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


Then Dany went and poisoned herself. That paragraph was the funniest in the book.

"These berries look okay. They taste bitter, but whatevs."

*becomes violently ill and shits on self*

bigmcgaffney fucked around with this message at Jul 20, 2011 around 22:34

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


Darkstar is the mastermind behind all the happenings in this series. Varys and Littlefinger are but pawns in Darkstar's grand scheme- and only Darkstar has the sheer brilliance to understand exactly what the scheme actually is.

Edit: He will cut off Dany's ear, and all problems will be solved.

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


This whole debate is a mummer's farce

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


Iggles posted:

Why don't the Others go around the Wall when the Milkwater freezes?

Honor and tradition. The White Walkers are honorable demons, they do things the way they always had. Their forebears tried to cross the wall in a certain way, and so shall they. There are doctrines to follow in the long winter, many and more.

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


Daenerys Dooksprayer, the First of Her Name

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


Neurosis posted:

And then as soon as Tyrion's away from Griff again he's back on the wine, and then back on a whore. Tragic.

Then he drinks black tar pirate rum likes its wine, and vomits all over

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


Ray_ posted:

Speaking of, was that one of the 3 treasons?

Dany seems to think it was the treason for gold, she says it a few times. But she also seems to count everyone else as the possible third, especially Brown Ben, who didn't even matter much. She also seems to think that three is the limit, like she'll be safe from betrayal afterwards or some poo poo.

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


the talent deficit posted:

What indications are there that the order Tyrion, Victarion and Marwyn show up is important or complicated at all? Quentyn had exactly zero impact on the plot, Dany doesn't even know he's dead, he clearly could have showed up at any point.

As long as Quentyn showed up TOO LATE and Victarion exactly when a fleet is needed, I don't think it mattered too much either.

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


HeroOfTheRevolution posted:

Who was that Quaithe person who Dany kept hallucinating and she said a bunch of prophetic crap that didn't even end up coming true, like beware the lion and the griffin and she didn't meet either of them and the perfumed seneschal who didn't do anything particularly bad

Hasn't met them yet, you mean! Reznak Gro Urdan Uruk Hai hasn't done anything bad that we know of, but it is known that all, perfumed men in this series are evil! Victarion knows this all too well.

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


Vivek posted:

A boat that sank. Great job, boat.

Thats what I thought. GRRM makes a big deal that it translates to perfumed seneschal, so you think it could fit the prophecy, but then it sinks. Tyrion was aboard it.

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


Limp Wristed Limey posted:

Maybe the Nights Watch just like to gossip like a bunch of teenage girls?

I think this is your answer, those dudes are so bored all they do is talk poo poo about each other.

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


Liesmith posted:

Right but honestly who gives a gently caress now? A little taste of it is interesting sure but we aren't reading books about the blackfyre rebellion we are reading about the Prince that was Promised

We're not reading about the Prince That Was Promised, he doesn't even have his own POV. We're reading about pink wearing psychopaths and frey cooks.

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


Liesmith posted:

Dany is the prince who was promised according to Maester Aemon. Also possibly Jon??? The only candidate who doesn't have a PoV here is Griff/Aegon since there are supposed to be three of them and the only other guy in the running got set on fire.

Hint: He is of the night.

NFL free agency started, cannot wait for esteemed author and football enthusiast George R. R. Martin's hard hitting analysis.

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


Victarion: Where the hell do all these befuddling perfumed boys come from? gently caress Euron, I'm going to take my dragons and burn that place down, I'm tired of dealing with these smelly dudes all over.

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


Add in all the where do whores go variations and I bet its more than that. And all the crossbow/gently caress-you-dad poo poo.

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


Ecco the Dolphin posted:

I've written a lot of negative things in this thread about the book, considering I really liked it. Ah well.

Same. I think it might be easier than talking about good things.

I think the Tyrion stuff bothered me because I had forgotten where "where do whores go" even came from. I had to get out SoS and look it up.

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


Gold teeth are a sign of power and wealth, and blue hair signifies Targaryen heritage. Match made in heaven!

~My Daario~

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


Holy gently caress, coveted NFL Football Player Nnamdi Asomugha signed with the Philadelphia Eagles instead of the NY JETS, author George R.R. Martin has massive coronary

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


Cryle posted:

This is the kind of thing you should figure out from subtext in my opinion? Catelyn brought her back from the dead after she was hung.

What, I don't know about that

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bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


Ecco the Dolphin posted:

A whole book of unraveling the "knot" and I'm still not sure what the outcome/point of the entire Slaver's Bay saga is supposed to be. Which would honestly be to GRRM's credit, if I had been given any reason to give a poo poo about Meereen. If.

Slavery is Bad, dude. Dany is a Champion of Justice.

Dumb girl killed Drogo too early he would have come back about now ready for a sloppy bj.

bigmcgaffney fucked around with this message at Jul 30, 2011 around 17:55

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