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If someone's curious about this little tidbit, here's the wordcount for the novels: A Game of Thrones: 298k A Clash of kings: 326k A Storm of Swords: 424k A Feast for Crows: 300k A Dance with Dragons: 422k Total: 1M 770k
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Jul 12, 2011 06:19
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theblackw0lf posted:I am reading Malazan (on Gardens of the Moon). But I wouldn't put him at nearly the same level of dialog as Martin. They can hardly compare as even the approach to "dialogue" is very different. It would depend a lot on the reader. Then, the Malazan series is an acquired taste and takes some time to get to the good stuff. So Gardens of the Moon can hardly compare because it's only a starting point even for the writing, whereas Martin's series starts and continues strong, more or less on the same level. ASoIaF has a wider, popular reach because it's quality storytelling all focused on delivering the best thing to the reader. Malazan is more intimate and experimental, as it is Erikson's own research and tries to go deeper in human themes and the various implications (microcosm/macrocosm, meta-narrative, post-modern ridiculous stuff). So ASoIaF focuses on plot, familiar characters with familiar feelings, keep readers turning the pages, ending chapters on cliffhangers, and so on. Malazan is, and becomes as it goes, more "niche" as it demands similar sensibilities from the reader. Plays with perspectives and frames, narrative styles, layers of meaning and so on. Less focused on telling the best and most engaging *story*, and more about the research and grasp of meaning, outside rhetoric. I'd say that Martin knows to perfection the rules of storytelling and his work is the honing of that craft (which is why it takes him forever to write a book, as it's meticulous, tiring work). Erikson is the guy who'd rather turn the tables, break all rules to see what's behind or to see what happens when you turn them upside down. He's more wildly creative, far more "raw", but also more alive and talented from my point of view (and requiring a lot of "mining" to understand fully and dig out the best stuff in there). In fact this is, imho, the real point that makes them different as writers, and all the rest develops from there: Martin represents a kind of stasis. You know what kind of quality you can expect, and the book will usually deliver. It's the best kind of quality entertainment. But pinned within its own structure and craft. Erikson is instead very much alike this approach of him: Many fantasy worlds seem to exist on the page in a kind of stasis, as if magic would trap in amber the cultures portrayed. We didn’t want to do it that way; we wanted something more dynamic, in perpetual flux – just as in this world. For that we needed solid foundations. But even here there were alternatives: for myself, I don’t find the history of ancient Egypt particularly interesting, principally because it was a stagnated civilization, conceptually bound to ritualized forms and backward looking. The Greeks and then the Romans were far more interesting as civilizations. Anyway, you’ll find corollaries for many kinds of civilization in the Malazan world: we just made it an obsession to be mindful that cultures evolve, and we held to the notion of cultures in transition being intrinsically more interesting that static ones. Only, applied to writing. So from Martin you can expect that mastery of hard-coded, honed through the years, craft. From Erikson a raw, dynamic, unbound kind of talent that is less easy to follow around and appreciate, but also more satisfying if you dedicate to it (so it really depends on a reader). I wanted to say this because of this other post: Darko posted:But after DT4 and the long wait to 5, we had no idea he'd become what he did - or completely change the tone of the books/series, etc. But it did teach me to not "trust" any long running series from an author - so I don't get nearly as let down now. You can trust Erikson. Not because the series is done and was done in the promised timeframe, but because it also delivers what it promises and is filled with gifts. There are no fake baits or tricks. Erikson is one of the most honest writers I know (next to David Foster Wallace). It also deals the stuff where other failed. Think for example the mythology and mysteries of LOST. That's one aspect that in Malazan is done perfectly and delivering plenty of satisfaction (and also revealing stuff filled with important implications). I find ASoIaF drier because beside the great story it's not telling or revealing me something I feel important or necessary. It's for me mostly limited to entertainment and escapism. Malazan engages me on a deeper level that I care about. That said, it's quite pointless to decide in absolute that one's better than the other. Have you seen the Tree of Life recent movie by Terrence Malick? That's the kind of stuff people love or hate. Very similar to Malazan stuff, especially of a similar, pretentious, ambition that for some is only a spectacular failure.
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Jul 17, 2011 08:49
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regulargonzalez posted:Haha you can't be serious. I mean "honest" in a different connotation, as with DFW. Intending the writer is putting his own heart into the book and writing as honestly as possible. Besides, it seems Jon is getting rezzd as well.
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Jul 17, 2011 09:01
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Very interesting take on ADWD: http://matthilliard.wordpress.com/2011/08/10/a-dance-with-dragons-by-george-r-r-martin/
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Aug 10, 2011 07:05
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crazypeltast52 posted:What is this? Optimism? GRRM is just doing this to keep us distracted through the end of football season when he reveals he won't write another word until 2013. As far as I know Martin already declared he wouldn't write anything till January 2012 (it was on a interview). And that sample character is probably something that was already written before the release of ADWD.
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Dec 29, 2011 19:50
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I posted a little rant about Martin's progress with the books: http://loopingworld.com/2012/03/02/why-george-rr-martin-cant-finish-his-books/ What annoys me is that for some writers it's a privilege the possibility to commit and focus on one project. Martin has it, but doesn't much care about it.
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Mar 3, 2012 00:03
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The interview is very interesting, especially the part where he explain names and some of the tropes. But I think you guys would enjoy more this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlJblxV3QHQ Minute 3:40  Also, minute 12:25 he says exactly what was in this previous post: el_brio posted:At one point he compares his writing style to a car journey. I found it amusing that the first three events that popped into his head during this lame extended metaphor are stopping to get lunch, getting a flat tire, and picking up an "interesting" hitchhiker. How perfectly GRRM. Food, lack of forward progress and creepy summarize his writing style perfectly. Abalieno fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Mar 19, 2012 |
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Mar 19, 2012 04:12
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This start looking to me like a case of the writer deliberately putting a theme in the books, and readers taking it literally as some kind of writer's endorsement, instead of writer's criticism. Beside the chuckles I think you're dragging this too far: like housewives in the sixties finding all sort of satanic messages in The Beatles songs. You're seeing monsters everywhere.
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Mar 20, 2012 04:00
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I was discussing this briefly on Westeros forums before the thread got locked (you shall not discuss GRRM status update on GRRM forums). I think I see this thing in a different light. From my point of view there's not much to complain about Martin's writing speed, or the fact the book isn't ready. Writing in general is a personal process, and you cannot really judge or mingle from the outside. Or rather, you can but it's useless anyway. There's no universal recipe for writing speed and quality that works for every writer. So, reading what Martin had to say about this is mostly reading about him feeling helpless, because the pressure isn't helping him anyway and he already thinks he's doing his best. But there's a problem there. I agree that the writing process is that personal thing, and you cannot simply solve it. I'm also convinced that Martin in indeed doing his best. But the problem I see is instead a lack of awareness on his side, and that's something that he's doing very poorly and that isn't equally excusable. The big deal isn't so much that it takes years to get the books out, but that when they do they end up covering less plot than originally intended. Martin already hinted here and there that MAYBE he won't be able to finish with the 7th book. And that's where he just can't be excused. He needs to be aware of what he's doing. You cannot mingle with how many pages you can manage to write in a day, but YOU CAN, as a writer, decide how much "bloat" or sidetracking you want to put in the book. Every story can be told in countless ways, and that includes the same story being told in a shorter or longer way. So, as a writer Martin can't decide how fast he can finish the book, and said as much, but he CAN decide if this story needs 7 books or 20. Yet no mention about this. He'll wait for the book to be released, readers feeling happier, to then push this other daring move: ooops, I think I'll need another couple books. And this is VERY worrying because he says nothing about this. As if he's not even considering this most important aspect. When you write book 6 on a series that is supposed to end with 7, then the whole purpose of this penultimate book is ALL about preparing the way for the finale. It's all about positioning the pieces so that you can then bring everything together in the last book. And that means that the most important thing is the timing. So now he's trying to make his fans accept that it will take longer than intended to have the book out. And when the fans will get over this then he'll pass to the other thing: that he needs more books, but HEY! All the better for you! It means you have MORE to read! And goodbye to the hope of ever seeing a conclusion.
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Jan 4, 2016 00:41
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Let's see if it's just me:quote:My publishers and I have been cognizant of these concerns, of course. We discussed some of them last spring, as the fifth season of the HBO series was winding down, and came up with a plan. We all wanted book six of A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE to come out before season six of the HBO show aired. Assuming the show would return in early April, that meant THE WINDS OF WINTER had to be published before the end of March, at the latest. Can you detect the incoherence in that? Because for me it's VERY obvious. Let's say that instead Martin was successful and he had announced the very opposite: that he delivered the book and it was going to come out just BEFORE the show. Exactly as "planned". But that's a completely FALSE scenario. What is the point of the book coming out before the show's season? To avoid spoilers. But even if the show won' spoil book 6, FOR SURE it will spoil the conclusion. Because it's not even in the realm of plausibility that GRRM can write the whole finale in less than two years. So you want to tell me this brilliant plan was all about avoiding spoilers for book 6 when you know everything else is going to be spoiled anyway? How can it make sense? How can you avoid mentioning what happens NEXT? Which is a big hint that it's instead one move part of a bigger plan, and all these "sincere apologies" are just paving the way for something else. Abalieno fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Jan 4, 2016 |
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Jan 4, 2016 01:02
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It would be quite nice if all of you were right and it was just another case of "old man yell at clouds." His perception changing due to him getting older rather than an actual change simply described. But I'm certainly not as old, and would have plenty to criticize of how he handled his work, I'm not a fan. Yet I don't see anything personal in that blog post he wrote. You see, it's not like the past year has been "bad" and that this one looks worse. The real point of what he writes is that it all feels like a mere "set-up", if it was a novel. Or, said with other words, it's starting to feel like we are trapped in a chronic case of "Russel's Turkey" (the world renews itself, one day looks just like the one before, no one sees it coming). Where he writes "the feeling that we are living in the Weimar Republic" he doesn't mean that living at that time was bad, per se, but that it was that naive moment where no one knew or had the faintest idea of WHAT WAS COMING. And that what would be coming would greatly exceeds the worst expectations. It's not like a necessary chain of events, but a breaking point that is hard to realize beforehand. You assume that the way he perceives things is deeply ingrained on him being old and feeling the moment of his death getting closer, but you don't realize that YOUR way of feeling is also deeply ingrained in the fact that there haven't been any breaking points. Therefore breaking points cannot happen. They seem out of this world, like belonging to a fictional novel (then maybe read a bit of Zweig). The literal fabric of reality everyone perceives is precisely what would feel like for a baroque culture at its apex: the certainty that nothing can change. Right before the collapse comes. Covid has been a significant culture transformation, but most people don't realize it. It wasn't a course correction, but it has been an accelerator. If he's right, and I think he is because I feel the exact way coming from a completely different perspective, it won't be down to perception. Soon enough you'll see the tangible effects that it was not his own being old and change of perspective, but just getting a feel of a radical change, before it actually happens and before everyone realizes. Or maybe he's wrong and just old and pessimistic, and you are all right. For sure we'll see this type of ending in the real world sooner than Winds of Winter. It will just happen to happen to you rather than to a character in a fantasy book.
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Feb 9, 2024 07:32
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chaosapiant posted:This is where I am. I fully expect a giant 6th novel at some point that is pretty decent, offers some good payoffs from books 4 and 5, and most of all, ends on several giant new cliffhangers that never ever get resolved. It's not that he's a bad writer all at the sudden, it's that he lost control of the shape of the story, and it's not going better. It looks like the whole thing derailed after book 3. He planned to have a time skip, and then spent years trying to detail what happened, until he realized he wasn't writing anything, so decided to simply start writing from where he left off. The problem is not what happens after, but that, if you are aware of it, you can notice by reading book 3 that all characters are carefully positioned to GET to that time skip. That then doesn't happen. It's book 3 already that derails compared to the new plan. He simply lost control of what he was doing and it's now obvious that the problem wasn't simply getting book 5 done. He's even admitted multiple times that it's possible two other books won't be enough to finish the story. He still can write, sure. But he doesn't know what he's doing with the overall trajectory of the thing. And probably around him has people who only try to be complacent and offer bad advices to keep him happy.
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Mar 16, 2024 06:15
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