ASoIaF: A Song of Ice and Fire: George Rail Road Martin

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Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

Kekekela posted:

Yeah, its kind of annoying. I'm pretty sure that without this thread I would've totally forgotten Kevan being killed by the time the next book comes out, even if the next book came out in within a reasonable time frame.

Really? The scenes in which POV characters die especially always really stick with me, because he writes it in this visceral way that almost makes it feel like what dying yourself must actually feel like. I felt that arrow lunging into my own chest as I read Kevan's death, the power and shock and offense of the impact. Same with Pate and Catelyn, to give some other examples. Harrowing, fascinating reading experiences.

I do agree on the comment in general, though, but a better example IMO would be Dany's dragons being born back in AGOT in a single, kind of throwaway sentence after that enormous amount of buildup over her chapters and especially the last one. It just deflated like a balloon.

# ¿ Dec 1, 2011 01:15

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 19:32

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

Kekekela posted:

Sure, if its a POV like Ned, or even Jaime losing his hand. I never felt that kind of attachment to uncle Kev though, he just always seemed overshadowed by the rest of his clan (not in actual political influence within the realm, but in terms of making the reader take notice of him)

Ned didn't die in a POV chapter so he doesn't count, he died in Arya's chapter. His death is harrowing for another reason: you heart just breaks for that little girl losing her father.

# ¿ Dec 1, 2011 01:28

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

Kekekela posted:

Well, you said POV character in the post I was replying to, which Ned was.

We didn't ultimately experience his death from his POV, like with Catelyn, Kevan, possibly Jon, etc., so it's quite different. (Another instance like Ned's is in ADWD: Quentyn. He is also a POV character that ultimately dies in someone else's chapter, not that his death is comparable or the effect as impactful as Ned's, but just to illustrate the difference of the visceral feeling those deaths inside the character's mind and body evoke.)

Kekekela posted:

And the reason it resonated was because he was a central character that I had grown attached to, not because of empathy for his fictional daughter.

If you didn't feel for Arya there, you must be some kind of robot or overly jaded. Sure there was the narrative shock (and outrage/repulsion towards Joffrey), but you really can't just so easily dismiss the added emotional impact of that scene. It's not just agonizing because of Ned, but also heartbreaking exactly because it is set in his daughter's perspective. The author's choice to write it from her viewpoint instead of just Ned's is important and really adds to the impact.

# ¿ Dec 1, 2011 03:11

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

Azure_Horizon posted:

The idea that this series was low magic to begin with was erased by the end of the first novel.

The prologue, even.

General Battuta posted:

I actually remember reading spoilers from the later books after finishing the first and thinking 'wow, this series...really changed tone, didn't it?' loving zombie characters.

Again, those were there right from the prologue of AGOT. So you should have bailed out about ten minutes into the series.

Joramun fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Dec 1, 2011

# ¿ Dec 1, 2011 21:31

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

General Battuta posted:

I also don't recall any named characters dying and coming back as still-conscious zombie versions of themselves in the prologue, but hey maybe I forgot something

That's exactly what happens in the prologue. Seems you have indeed forgotten about Waymar Royce. Though I assume you threw in the little bit about consciousness to turn this into a tiresome discussion about semantics and divert attention away from the real issue, which is that you knew exactly what you were in for right from the very beginning.

# ¿ Dec 1, 2011 22:09

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

smarion2 posted:

Are some of you guys kidding about the low magic stuff? The book went from ONLY having some mystical monsters across the wall(perfect level of magic/mysticism) to dragons being born again, shadow babies killing people, being able to see fortunes in flames, magic fire swords, face changing and bringing people back to life. There is no way you aren't trolling if you believe the magic in this book hasn't been gaining steam since he beginning.

But all that didn't happen all of a sudden after the third book like someone above implied. Melisandre's (admittedly kind of ridiculous) killer vagina shadows were already way back in book 2. If you managed to get through that without giving up due to "too magical", you are in for the long haul. Magic has been there throughout all the books, from the very first chapter. It's evidently just not a valid criticism against AFFC or ADWD.

# ¿ Dec 1, 2011 22:57

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

mind the walrus posted:

It doesn't bug me to the point where I'd abandon the series--there have been worse crimes against the reader committed already and I'm still here--but it is a valid topic for analysis. Not necessarily criticism, analysis and yes, argument.

Fair enough.

� propos: when I read the prologue of AGOT in a bookstore way back when, the wights were what got me to pick it up in the first place. So maybe that's why I don't mind (or rather: love) the direction this series has taken in that sense.

# ¿ Dec 1, 2011 23:30

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

General Battuta posted:

If characters start coming back as zombies, and their stories resume, doesn't that change something you love about the series?

No, because that exact thing happens in the very first chapter of the series. So unexpected is the very last thing it is.

I agree that deaths that don't stick can cheapen a narrative considerably when used willy-nilly (looking at you, Joss Whedon), but GRRM uses it so sparingly, with commensurate ramifications and such a huge cost for the characters involved (Catelyn especially) that he earns and works for the exceptions while still keeping the vast majority of deaths absolutely final and irreversible. Jon notwithstanding, death in ADWD is still just as shocking and sudden, narratively meaningful and emotionally agonizing as it was back in AGOT.

# ¿ Dec 1, 2011 23:55

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

my cat is norris posted:

It's natural that his writing ability would begin to decay with such distractions in life.

And yet in terms of style and cadence, ADWD is his best written work yet. No matter what you think of the plot or structure (which I still adore, but that's down to personal taste), the prose is just beautiful.

# ¿ Dec 2, 2011 00:39

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

Azure_Horizon posted:

Joramun: Jesus have I been waiting for someone else besides me to say that ADWD's prose is beautiful.

There are so many passages in this book that are just breathtaking in terms of style and cadence and the images they evoke. I read a lot of non-genre literary fiction famous for its writing style and prose as well, but GRRM's writing is still amongst the most beautiful, gripping and wondrous in any genre. Even the utter horror and degradation Reek has to endure in Ramsay's castle becomes becomes almost alluring because of the luscious writing, which is why it evokes such cognitive dissonance. The prologue (Varamyr's POV chapter), any of the odes he writes to life on the Wall, Cersei's walk of shame and penance, the desciptions of Meereen, Yunkai, the Free Cities and the Haunted Forest, Dany flying on Drogon for the very first time... Just some examples, and simply exquisite.

# ¿ Dec 2, 2011 01:20

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

IRQ posted:

The cramping in Dany's bowels, the poo poo geyser erupting from her rear end in a top hat, simply glorious prose, it's almost like you're there, hearing it splatter wetly on the plains.

I didn't say it was flawless. Someone above mentioned the overabundance of elaborate food descriptions, I could've done without those as well.

# ¿ Dec 2, 2011 02:05

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

Aurubin posted:

In a way, I hope her spat of bloody diarrhea becomes a plot point. I tend to play devil's advocate in forum arguments, but even if there is symbolism or veiled hints to the future, I really don't want to pick it out of poop. (wakka wakka)

You mean in terms of foreshadowing a miscarriage or something? Or an arrow to the gut?

# ¿ Dec 2, 2011 02:13

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

Fog Tripper posted:

All it took was a parachute account a day old.

I'm not someone's alt or something, if that's what you're implying. I've been reading here for a while but only registered just recently.

And besides, can't you just have a discussion based on my arguments instead of my registration date? It makes it seem like you don't have any of your own and therefore have to resort to strawmen.

# ¿ Dec 2, 2011 02:23

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

Aurubin posted:

I glossed over her last chapter to be honest, waiting for the making GBS threads to end. If she had her period that's significant in the way that she's no longer barren, but hell, how could her ability to have kids impact the end of the story? I hope GRRM doesn't use a timeskip, they're a real copout.

I took it as her getting back her period again as well, I thought that was completely obvious. I'm actually surprised because this is the first time I've ever even heard of possible other interpretations.

# ¿ Dec 2, 2011 02:30

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

bigmcgaffney posted:

Do You Not Sew?

You knit nothing, Jon Snow.

# ¿ Dec 10, 2011 15:17

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

Vertigus posted:

I read this and started thinking "Stannis Baratheon's siege of Winterfell" until I realized that what we actually got was a couple chapters about how cold winter is and then then a cut to "Well that siege sure was crazy!"

Theon's escape from Winterfell with Jeyne Poole was probably the biggest nailbiter in ADWD for me, that genuinely had my heart pounding.

# ¿ Dec 10, 2011 22:49

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

I always got the impression Daario longed for Dany just as much as she did for him; he was just more macho and less sappy about it, which makes sense since he isn't a teenage girl like she is.

# ¿ Dec 14, 2011 22:06

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

bigmcgaffney posted:

Well, Daario has a blue moustache, Jon Connington might be gay, umm... Victarion is cool in this book?

"Might" be? He's basically Br�no. In fact, Sacha Baron-Cohen should play him in the tv series.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2011 01:18

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

IRQ posted:

That might salvage the half season that AFFC and ADWD should take.

Cersei's arc over AFFC and ADWD alone could fill an entire season, and should have if only they had gotten a better actress than Lena Headey for the part. I can't really see her convincingly pulling any of it off, neither the mental and political self-destruction nor the Scarlet Lettering, but maybe she'll surprise us.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2011 02:33

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

I'm curious to see if Headey is dedicated enough to her "craft" to pull a RobMcElhenney for the AFFC season, or if she'll just wear a fatsuit.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2011 14:45

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

Ross posted:

I recall reading somewhere that they intentionally toned Cercei down from the books to make her a more sympathetic character in the show.

I don't buy that, sounds like just a lame excuse. Why would a character on a show like this even need to be sympathetic in the first place? That's not what people watch for. This is Westeros, not Pawnee. Look at a show like Mad Men where some of the most popular characters (Don, Peggy, Roger) are also some of the biggest assholes. It's evident Headey didn't read even a single letter of any of the books and probably only showed up to collect an easy paycheck, which is put in even starker contrast by the stunning transformation her co-star Mark Addy underwent for his part (it blew my mind when it dawned on me Robert Baratheon was the bumbling dad from Still Standing). Though to be fair, some of the blame falls on the casting director's shoulders as well since she was fine in Sarah Connor Chronicles but simply completely miscast here, the one blemish on an otherwise pretty much flawlessly cast ensemble.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2011 16:25

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

Not necessarily, but it is when the discrepancy becomes so big that page and screen version might as well have been two completely different characters. It's still an adaptation after all and not a wholly original teleplay.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2011 16:44

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

Fog Tripper posted:

So he wrote something even more so with Ramsay.

I've been thinking about that too lately, and wondering if he could still salvage Ramsay as an actual character instead of the caricature he is now like he did with Jaime and Melisandre for example, i.e. by giving him a POV chapter. Probably not, but it would still at least be a nice writing challenge.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2011 17:01

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

Paperback Writer posted:

The Boltons really killed Stannis?

I sure hope not. I do believe Jon is really dead, though. Which is also sad because he was one of my favorite POV characters, but his time had simply come.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2011 21:01

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

Paperback Writer posted:

I thought he was going to be like the focal character for when the Others attack.

Plenty left to take that role, like Sam or Melisandre. If it ever happens at all.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2011 21:21

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

Blade_of_tyshalle posted:

Jon has pretty clearly warged at the moment of death into Walder Frey.

Heh.

Now I can't shake the image of Ned and his slain sons all enjoying a nice cup of tea and a game of cards inside Walder Frey after warging into him upon death.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2011 21:31

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

mind the walrus posted:

You'd let those scrubs tell you which interpretation is right when half of them didn't see Ned's death coming

To be fair, neither did any of us when we first read the book. Hindsight is 20/20 but the first time around Joffrey's judgment was pretty abrupt and out of left field.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2011 22:04

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

Nilbop posted:

Joffrey is simply the beta test for Ramsay Bolton. He does every cruel thing he can all the time, even if it obviously hurts his own prosperity, because enormous white noise where the reasoning should be with the main difference being he shoots bunnies instead of Spearwives.

That's an interesting parallel but let's not forget that Joffrey was only 12 years old then, recklessness and reasoning without regard to the consequences is almost expected. Ramsay's perpetual OTT violence could be explained as hubris, plain old psychosis or (most likely) self-esteem issues but even then it's still ridiculous, especially because everybody just lets him get away with it.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2011 22:44

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

hailthefish posted:

Joffery's bullshit at least makes a little sense, as he's a 12 year old kid who's pampered as gently caress except when his father beats him.

Acting like a sociopath is pretty much expected.

Just he doesn't grow out of it or learn anything or become more circumspect. He just gets more and more over the top and retarded until he dies.

Which is at 13.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2011 22:52

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

Nihonniboku posted:

I believe Robb or Joffrey legitimized him, I forget who.

Tommen.

# ¿ Dec 18, 2011 00:57

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

Supreme Allah posted:

Ramsay's probably regarded to be just another dangerously disturbed bastard lordling in Westeros by most soldiers. We the reader know about the intimate details of what he does to people. For most soldiers, all they'd hear is that he tortures and rapes people. Big deal - Gregor Clegane was doing that and worse in book one. Gregor kills his wifes and servants and babies; We just don't know the inside story on many of those happenings.

Robb does at least try to put an end to it after hearing about Ramsay locking up his wife in the tower and starving her to the point of eating her own fingers, but they erroneously kill the original Reek instead of Ramsay himself because they have switched clothes. And then Ramsay-Reek goes into hiding with Theon and Robb obviously never got a chance to go after him again.

# ¿ Dec 18, 2011 01:07

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

As long as on the last page Gregor is killed by Aegon bashing his head against the wall for some poetic justice.

# ¿ Dec 18, 2011 13:48

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

hailthefish posted:

It was never explicitly stated they are Frey pies, but three freys disappeared, and Manderly serves three large 'pork' pies, takes a helping from each, talks about the rat king, talks about how the missing Freys were no longer his guests as they had already officially parted ways, and insists everyone eat up.

They're definitely Frey pies.

Another hint is that he dispatches Davos to Skagos, the cannibal island.

# ¿ Dec 20, 2011 22:37

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

zocio posted:

It will be revealed that Benjen found that he could warg into direwolves in his last ranging; unfortunatelly, he warged into Lady...

I'm going to hold this as canon from now on. Poor Ned never even knew he killed his own brother (or maybe he did).

# ¿ Dec 23, 2011 09:57

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

Fire isn't the only way a dragon can kill someone, I would presume. Their teeth and claws are pretty sharp too and I could see them even slapping someone to death with their wings like a swan or divebombing them from great height. So immunity to their magic fire wouldn't make someone automatically impervious to their attacks as a whole.

# ¿ Dec 23, 2011 14:19

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

Ross posted:

However I recall a recent interview where he said he might need an extra eighth book to finish the series =\

6 - The Winds of Winter
7 - A Dream of Spring
8 - A Requiem for Summer
9 - The Audacity of Autumn

# ¿ Dec 27, 2011 00:05

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

Sophia posted:

Arya isn't old enough to be a sex object so she gets to hang out in the men's group, Brienne is too ugly to be a sex object so she just spends most of her time trying to be in the men's group and Jaime sort of straddles the line with his honorable Cersei love being the reason for his downfall, but other than that it's pretty clear as far as major characters go. Guys get to be bold, headstrong, and honorable and women get to be love-starved, confused, and short-sighted.

What about Arianne?

# ¿ Dec 27, 2011 21:59

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

kcroy posted:

so like what are some "good" female characters in sci-fi / fantasy. Any (the one) women in this thread want to chime in?

Some off the top of my head that I've liked:

-Jessica from Dune

-Lessa or Menolly from Pern

-"Jones" from C. J. Cherryh's Merovingen Nights

-How about CS Friedman? I kind of can't stand her heroine from the Feast of Souls books. I really liked her adept from the Coldfire books though.

-Elizabeth from Julian May's Pliocene Exile

Anathema Device
Hermione Granger
Buffy Summers
Laura Roslin
Katniss Everdeen

# ¿ Dec 28, 2011 14:38

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

Maytag posted:

These characters only have power based on how they act in the world. And acting with confidence or strength doesn't necessarily mean they are "trying to be men." Strong and confident women are sexy as hell, bros.

You're missing the point. A couple of ASoIaF females (at least Cersei, Asha and Arianne, IIRC?) literally wish they were men at several instances in the books.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2011 15:01

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 19:32

Joramun: Dec 1, 2011; No man has need of candles when the Sun awaits him.

IRQ posted:

These absolute fuckers didn't like my crazy wall idea because gently caress YOU BAD THREAD!

What was the crazy wall idea? It sounds intriguing.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2011 20:06

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > ASoIaF: A Song of Ice and Fire: George Rail Road Martin

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