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Hemingway To Go!
Nov 10, 2008

im stupider then dog shit, i dont give a shit, and i dont give a fuck, and i will never shut the fuck up, and i'll always Respect my enemys.
- ernest hemingway


Zenzirouj posted:

The comic really hasn't felt like a CYOA to me for a while now, so I think that's where people keep running into problems. It's pretty much a webcomic in which suggestions are occasionally asked for at this point. I never bothered with suggestions so it doesn't really matter to me either way.

If it's a CYOA whose choosing? And if it's "other people" why should I care? I don't get the draw.
Already pulling people suggestions wholesale and using them as a dialog with Katia is a lot of meaningful reader input.

Amish Ninja posted:

Seriously though, I'm having a difficult time finding the main character's constant plight to be interesting. Anyone else having this issue?

If Lucy let Charlie Brown kick the football where would the joke be?

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Eggie
Aug 15, 2010

Something ironic, I'm certain


It's a weird kind of sadism when I read Prequel. On the one hand I want to see good things happen to Katia. On the other hand, bad things are much more entertaining and will make those victories oh so sweeter when they arrive.

Amish Ninja
Jul 2, 2006

It's called survival of the fittest. If you can't slam with the best, jam with the rest.


I'm with you that failure is usually more entertaining than success, but these just seem like deadpan "and then you completely hosed up and lost everything" type situations that just aren't interesting. But who knows. I've seen enough good pieces of writing out of Kaz that I'm sure it's meant to go somewhere, right? I think with slow updates it's just that much more frustrating of an experience.

Maple Leaf
Aug 24, 2010

Let'en my post flyen true


Yonic Symbolism posted:

If Lucy let Charlie Brown kick the football where would the joke be?

The difference being Charlie didn't start having a life/identity crisis when he tripped and dropped a couple hundred gold worth of wine after escaping a collapsing ruin. It's all fun and games until someone starts breaking down.

I can understand constantly putting Katia down - I've never played Oblivion, but I hear it starts with the PC in chains in a dungeon? That would probably be the very lowest Katia could possibly drop to, so if she's really the main character in Oblivion and this really is her prequel to that adventure, then it would make sense for things to start looking up for her during her time in the main game. Nonetheless, it's difficult to savor any victory when they're constantly offset by catastrophes (doh hoh hoh i did a thing)



Sometimes, I think Kaz has plants in the readers and he just PMs them to say something so he has plausible deniability to progress the story he wants to. I know that's a silly and shallow thought, though.

Straight White Shark
May 16, 2009



Fun Shoe

Maple Leaf posted:

Sometimes, I think Kaz has plants in the readers and he just PMs them to say something so he has plausible deniability to progress the story he wants to. I know that's a silly and shallow thought, though.

Yeah, no, Kazerad is never going to run out of people deliberately trying to get Katia to take a fall. Ever.

I dunno, I have a hard time getting worked up about this particular turn. I mean if Katia turns to drink and wakes up in Quill-Weaver's guest bed with someone strange again then I'm probably done, but this isn't so terrible (yet.) I can see where the constant setbacks could be pretty frustrating, but one of the things that makes the comic endearing is Katia's ability to bounce back from them. Get trapped in a well and badly maimed by carnivorous fish? gently caress YEAH I AM A WIZARD NOW THIS IS THE BEST DAY EVER.

Hemingway To Go!
Nov 10, 2008

im stupider then dog shit, i dont give a shit, and i dont give a fuck, and i will never shut the fuck up, and i'll always Respect my enemys.
- ernest hemingway


"and then you hosed up" is really funny here.

Going further than that is really overthinking it.

anything I type here feels like explaining the joke to death, which is impossible. I mean, it's a year into the story, isn't it? The subtitle of the comic is making a catgirl cry.

At the same time, it feels hypocritical for me to criticize not "getting" dark humor.
Recently I tried to watch Super after it got good reviews here.
I had to turn it off, because the protagonist not only failed, but he was also mentally unwell, dumb as poo poo, extermely self centered, cried constantly, and didn't see anything wrong with graphically beating people's heads in with a pipe wrench. I was wincing at everything he did, and was finding the movie upsetting. I had to turn it off.

so maybe I only find cute sympathetic characters being emotionally tortured funny?

I mean, I've always taken some shadenfraude in the readers themselves who write paragraphs and paragraphs of emotional support for Katia just because she is both cat and girl. Safe, harmless pictures of cats and girls are the biggest commodities on the net.

Whatever, I don't know, really I don't want the tone of the comic to change because I find it entertaining as a venue for well done dark comedy. I feel that criticizing the comic for Katia not succeeding enough or something is missing the point of the comic and missing the entire joke even though I'm not clear on what the joke is.

Robo Pope
Jul 17, 2004

I AM THE POPE, DO AS I SAY.

Joke's on Sigrid anyways. If that was Telvanni Bug Musk, which the bottle looks a lot like, she just used a 100g potion to scam 22g and a pile of random junk. And if Katia took off her Silence Amulet then someone will make a suggestion containing a bunch of cat puns and Katia will either burn down the guild or set the Clanfear on fire.

JT Jag
Aug 30, 2009

Fandom is misery.



Yeah, this isn't really a CYOA anymore. It's more or less a directed story in which the people submitting "commands" really just represent thoughts Katia is having, which she may or may not act on.

The gradual decrease in dependance of user input is more or less the same trajectory Homestuck took.

Futaba Anzu
May 5, 2011

GROSS BOY



Robo Pope posted:

Joke's on Sigrid anyways. If that was Telvanni Bug Musk, which the bottle looks a lot like, she just used a 100g potion to scam 22g and a pile of random junk. And if Katia took off her Silence Amulet then someone will make a suggestion containing a bunch of cat puns and Katia will either burn down the guild or set the Clanfear on fire.

This is how Kvatch burns down

Taerkar
Dec 7, 2002

kind of into it, really



JT Jag posted:

Yeah, this isn't really a CYOA anymore. It's more or less a directed story in which the people submitting "commands" really just represent thoughts Katia is having, which she may or may not act on.

The gradual decrease in dependance of user input is more or less the same trajectory Homestuck took.

Most of the "commands" are terrible.

Regy Rusty
Apr 26, 2010



Commands are always terrible, and I think "railroading" is a stupid criticism. You can't actually create a story based on suggestions. You can create something and it might even be entertaining, but telling a story requires a person to actually tell it. Kaz should just keep using the commands as much or as little as he feels works.

Snollygoster
Dec 17, 2002

what a scoop

Regy Rusty posted:

Commands are always terrible, and I think "railroading" is a stupid criticism. You can't actually create a story based on suggestions. You can create something and it might even be entertaining, but telling a story requires a person to actually tell it. Kaz should just keep using the commands as much or as little as he feels works.

I don't think it's stupid. You can't argue that to an extent, this is an interactive project. Kaz has said that there was a window of opportunity through which the readership could have set events in motion that would have spared Dmitri. Meanwhile there are like three consecutive updates worth of suggestions of people going "oh gently caress get out" that Katia blows off.

The outcome is funny and Kazerad pulled it off well. Again though - this is, to a degree, an interactive project. It's a very clever way for readers to get involved with the characters and have a stake in what happens to them. The flip side of that is some people (like I guess me) are gonna get slightly caremad when reader input that would have helped Katia gets pushed aside for the sake of a punchline.

JT Jag
Aug 30, 2009

Fandom is misery.



Snollygoster posted:

I don't think it's stupid. You can't argue that to an extent, this is an interactive project. Kaz has said that there was a window of opportunity through which the readership could have set events in motion that would have spared Dmitri.
Well, yeah. I mean, he was almost safe there at the end. Until that one guy asked about the Kvatch mages guild, that is. Then, bam.

Snollygoster
Dec 17, 2002

what a scoop

JT Jag posted:

Well, yeah. I mean, he was almost safe there at the end. Until that one guy asked about the Kvatch mages guild, that is. Then, bam.

Gharug's facial expressions during that sequence were amazing.

Soonmot
Dec 19, 2002

Entrapta fucking loves robots




Grimey Drawer

So are people really in this for the user suggestions? Personally, I'm here because I'm enjoying the story.

Normal Adult Human
Feb 12, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


If there's one thing I think this webcomic needs it's more creative control by furries, sadists, and worst of all MSPA fans.

Drakkel
May 6, 2007

IT'S LIKE I CAN TOUCH YOU!


Yeah for me it's Katia's reactions to the user suggestions that are entertaining for me, not the actual suggestions.

Also I kinda hope that Clannfear is the new sidekick.

World Famous W
May 25, 2007

BAAAAAAAAAAAA

I have never gave a command, never plan on doing it, and could care less if all commands in the future just get pushed away as stupid thoughts by Katia.

Also, I only read this comic cause I like watching her fail in spectacular and hilarious ways. Suggestions that would prevent this should be avoided.

Kazerad
Aug 1, 2011

Unshamed by Koos

Snollygoster posted:

Not to complain about railroading, but yeah I'm gonna complain a little about railroading.

(and then he did)

The railroading objections are interesting to me because Katia has actually been acting very, very in-line with the command thread. A majority of people there trusted Sigrid right up until the very end. Over the last few updates (of Sigrid doing the Oblivion speechwheel thing), she slowly won over more and more of the suggestors until almost everyone loved her. By all accounts, Katia's actions here pretty much match what was going on in her "subconscious".

The commands I picked to show for the update don't really reflect this, admittedly. They were chosen for narrative flow reasons. When Katia offers to help Sigrid run errands, her reasoning is pretty clear and doesn't need to be prefaced with the three dozen commands explaining why she should stay and help out.

In the end I've noticed readers basically fall into about three groups. You've got the people who read/participate in the command thread and likely recognize their influence on Katia's thoughts and actions. You've got the people like Soonmot and WFW above, who are just reading the story and could care less about railroading. And then you've got this unusual third group that doesn't submit commands, but whose enjoyment pivots on the idea that the people who are submitting the commands have control over the story. The people who dismiss the story as "railroaded" even when they don't actually participate. Perhaps they are morally opposed to railroading on principle, and are driven to call it out even when they're not playing. Or maybe they just really want to read a story driven by "furries, sadists, and worst of all MSPA fans". Whatever the case, this group gets extremely upset when the commands I quote do not reflect what Katia actually does.

And I'm okay with that, I guess. As long as it makes a good story for the larger two parts of my readership to enjoy.

Perestroika
Apr 8, 2010



It's also important to remember that things won't necessarily pan out the way it looks like right now. For example, back at the dinner with the Countess everything looked like Katia was about to get drunk and horribly fail again only for Asotil to bust in and turn everything around (which is incidentally my favourite moment in the entire comic).

IronSaber
Feb 24, 2009

oh yes oh god yes form the head FORM THE HEAD unghhhh...

Also, you realize we need to kick Sigrid's rear end now, right?

Normal Adult Human
Feb 12, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


Actually it's time for a jump cut. To that cat with the rock.

Xander77
Apr 6, 2009

Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.




Kazerad posted:

( Sigrid doing the Oblivion speechwheel thing)


I totally missed that.

Edit: "Though her jokes are kind of lame and her bragging is maybe a little irritating".

There specifically for people like me, and I still missed it.

Xander77 fucked around with this message at 14:03 on Apr 10, 2012

Grapplejack
Nov 27, 2007



Kazerad posted:

And then you've got this unusual third group that doesn't submit commands, but whose enjoyment pivots on the idea that the people who are submitting the commands have control over the story. The people who dismiss the story as "railroaded" even when they don't actually participate. Perhaps they are morally opposed to railroading on principle, and are driven to call it out even when they're not playing. Or maybe they just really want to read a story driven by "furries, sadists, and worst of all MSPA fans". Whatever the case, this group gets extremely upset when the commands I quote do not reflect what Katia actually does.

That would be this thread, and you're p much correct saying that the comic's suggestions are written by "furries, sadists, and worst of all MSPA fans", considering they all post on the MSPA forum, hth.

Fork And Knife
Apr 10, 2012

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Kazerad posted:

Perhaps they are morally opposed to railroading on principle, and are driven to call it out even when they're not playing. Or maybe they just really want to read a story driven by "furries, sadists, and worst of all MSPA fans". Whatever the case, this group gets extremely upset when the commands I quote do not reflect what Katia actually does.

There's nothing wrong with being opposed to something on principle. But personally I don't care what commands aren't used. It's impossible for you to use every single one, especially since they're contradictory sometimes. What commands are really good for in adventures like Prequel is just inspiration and unusual ideas.

Fork And Knife fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Apr 10, 2012

radintorov
Feb 18, 2011


Fallen Rib

I'm having trouble understanding this whole debacle: if you don't like how the story is going, why not just make an MSPA account and submit your commands and try to convince the other users?
Isn't that easier than complaining here?

Fork And Knife
Apr 10, 2012

by Y Kant Ozma Post


radintorov posted:

I'm having trouble understanding this whole debacle: if you don't like how the story is going, why not just make an MSPA account and submit your commands and try to convince the other users?
Isn't that easier than complaining here?

Presumably they think their commands won't be used and it would be a waste of time.

IronSaber
Feb 24, 2009

oh yes oh god yes form the head FORM THE HEAD unghhhh...

I've had my commands used a couple times before. Your mileage may vary.

frajaq
Jan 30, 2009

#acolyte GM of 2014




I hope that little clannfear stick with us forever

Liquid Dinosaur
Dec 16, 2011

by Smythe


frajaq posted:

I hope that little clannfear stick with us forever

We better hope it's not worth any money then!

Fork And Knife
Apr 10, 2012

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Liquid Dinosaur posted:

We better hope it's not worth any money then!

If it was worth money Sigrid would have summoned a billion of them and sold them. But irregardless it won't stay, because summons only last for sixty seconds.

Xander77
Apr 6, 2009

Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.




Fork And Knife posted:

irregardless
Ugh.

quote:

it won't stay, because summons only last for sixty seconds.
It's been longer since it first appeared, unless that was a really short lizard-loving story.

radintorov
Feb 18, 2011


Fallen Rib

Xander77 posted:

It's been longer since it first appeared, unless that was a really short lizard-loving story.
Well, it is Oblivion, so it might be a longer-lasting summon, maybe even custom made.

Dominic White
Nov 1, 2005



I really quite like the thing the story has going on between Katia and Sigrid. Katia is a bumbling NPC playing by as many of the unwritten rules as possible, but Sigrid is a full-blown player character with her stats min-maxed to buggery and a thousand exploits and loopholes leading to near infinite riches, which still means nothing in the context of being a guild leader, as the only members you'll ever have are the few NPCs that you didn't kill to get to the top.

I mean, just look at that mages guild - it is totally being used as player-character housing, with random junk being piled high on the floors, wildly inconsistent use of storage, and perfectly arranged shelves full of books.

And as noted, she's abusing the conversation wheel so bad that everyone she talks to ends up at 100% disposition (Asotil) or 0 (Gro'upp).

Dominic White fucked around with this message at 13:33 on Apr 11, 2012

IronSaber
Feb 24, 2009

oh yes oh god yes form the head FORM THE HEAD unghhhh...

Dominic White posted:

I really quite like the thing the story has going on between Katia and Sigrid. Katia is a bumbling NPC playing by as many of the unwritten rules as possible, but Sigrid is a full-blown player character with her stats min-maxed to buggery and a thousand exploits and loopholes leading to near infinite riches, which still means nothing in the context of being a guild leader, as the only members you'll ever have are the few NPCs that you didn't kill to get to the top.

I mean, just look at that mages guild - it is totally being used as player-character housing, with random junk being piled high on the floors, wildly inconsistent use of storage, and perfectly arranged shelves full of books.

I think Sigrid found out how to enter console commands.

"Let's see here... player.additem 0000000F 10,000..."

Android Blues
Nov 22, 2008



IronSaber posted:

I think Sigrid found out how to enter console commands.

"Let's see here... player.additem 0000000F 10,000..."

You mean she's experienced CHIM! This is huge.

Actually I think even the "min-maxing PC" explanation means she's CHIM-capable. Gro'upp probably is too. CHIM CHIM CHIM.

Dominic White
Nov 1, 2005



Now, let's not get too meta here. Everyone knows that maxing out alchemy is a free pass to clear out every single vendor's gold reserves each week. No need to spawn items when you can do that.

Double Punctuation
Dec 30, 2009

Ships were made for sinking;
Whiskey made for drinking;
If we were made of cellophane
We'd all get stinking drunk much faster!


IronSaber posted:

I think Sigrid found out how to enter console commands.

"Let's see here... player.additem 0000000F 10,000..."

Katia: > tm

We did it, guys! We finally solved all of Katia's problems!

Daktar
Aug 19, 2008

I done turned 'er head into a slug an' now she's a-stucked!


dpbjinc posted:

Katia: > tm

We did it, guys! We finally solved all of Katia's problems!

Better give her TCL too, just in case she falls through the world geometry.

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Fork And Knife
Apr 10, 2012

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Dominic White posted:

Now, let's not get too meta here. Everyone knows that maxing out alchemy is a free pass to clear out every single vendor's gold reserves each week. No need to spawn items when you can do that.

Is there any Elder Scrolls game with alchemy where it's not at least a little broken?

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