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mandatory lesbian
Dec 18, 2012


NikkolasKing posted:

SJ Chaos has a few interesting things about it that sets it apart from other depictions of Chaos:

1. It's led by Mem Aleph, the Mothers and Tyrants, not Lucifer. These are the gods humanity worshiped before YHVH said gently caress you I'm the only one who gets worship. The current form of these figures is all down to how humans have come to perceive them thanks to YHVH's rule.
2. Related to 1, Humanity started all of this. The Schwarzwelt is just trying to stop what humans are doing to the planet. And in the Neutral Ending, it confirms humans will learn nothing and it will come again.

Also I've never understood how Mem Aleph created humans and demons existed before humans but human perception makes demons... I guess it's Magic so it doesn't have to make logical sense.

I think it's meant to be a bit of a paradox, humans created the God that created humans, therefore they existed before humanity despite not existing before humanity. I think it's called an onthological paradox?

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Petiso
Apr 30, 2012






I'm not sure that was the link you intended to post but

Justin_Brett
Oct 23, 2012

GAMERDOME put down LOSER

Beyond all their claims about nature and stuff, the Schwarzwelt exists as a phenomenon because demons want to be in charge of the world again, so there's not really anything that can be done to make it permanently go away beyond surrendering. With that in mind the new Neutral ending in Redux makes me think of it as less 'humans don't learn' and more mankind being caught in a poo poo situation simply for wanting to be independent.

Justin_Brett fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Jun 29, 2020

Achernar
Sep 2, 2011


mandatory lesbian posted:

I think it's meant to be a bit of a paradox, humans created the God that created humans, therefore they existed before humanity despite not existing before humanity. I think it's called an onthological paradox?

I think SMT YHVH is supposed to be a demiurge, though it may vary from game to game.

THE AWESOME GHOST
Oct 21, 2005



Yeah gnostic teachings are that the Judeo Christian god (YHWH) DID create the universe but ISNT the supreme “God” and that life kinda sucks because he made it. That’s what the Demiurge refers to

It sorta ties in with why heaven is leaving the current world and all that

I don’t know why so many Japanese pieces of media are super into gnostic teachings tho

ZenMasterBullshit
Nov 2, 2011

Ziggy Hero!
Ziggy! Save! Everyone!


THE AWESOME GHOST posted:

Yeah gnostic teachings are that the Judeo Christian god (YHWH) DID create the universe but ISNT the supreme “God” and that life kinda sucks because he made it. That’s what the Demiurge refers to

It sorta ties in with why heaven is leaving the current world and all that

I don’t know why so many Japanese pieces of media are super into gnostic teachings tho

Its cool

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





THE AWESOME GHOST posted:

Yeah gnostic teachings are that the Judeo Christian god (YHWH) DID create the universe but ISNT the supreme “God” and that life kinda sucks because he made it. That’s what the Demiurge refers to

It sorta ties in with why heaven is leaving the current world and all that

I don’t know why so many Japanese pieces of media are super into gnostic teachings tho

It was everywhere in the 90s and early 2000s. Matrix, DaVinci Code, probably many other notable examples. Apart from just being interesting, it represents the 'lost" Christianity, the Christianity that was stamped out by the ruthless authoritarian Christianity that came to dominate the Western World for centuries. The Bible is a great example of "history is written by the winners." There's also how the element of the Sacred Feminine was very important to most so-called "Gnostic" sects. The True God isn't a woman - isn't really anything in most of the literature I've read, more like the Neoplatonic One which is beyond all characterizations like woman or benevolence - but possibly the savior of mankind is a woman among other high-ranking female deities. This appealed to a lot of people for obvious reasons.It gave women a place equal to men in the cosmic way of things.

But yeah, overall it just has some very interesting mythology and themes.

NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Jun 29, 2020

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Ellie was the best non-Ulala party member in EP and I was sad when we got Sad Tatsuya as a party member instead of her.

I think one of many reasons I prefer IS is that it was so much better when Tatsuya didn't talk and Maya was being sassy instead of Maya just making distressed lady faces and Tatsuya being mopey. He might have perfectly good reasons to be mopey but Maya was way, way better when she talked. They took teh character with arguably the most personality and charisma in IS and...got rid of it.

Mraagvpeine
Nov 4, 2014

I won this avatar on a technicality this thick.

Blank slate MCs have always been a problem since the very start.

deadly_pudding
May 13, 2009

who the fuck is scraeming
"LOG OFF" at my house.
show yourself, coward.
i will never log off


Mraagvpeine posted:

Blank slate MCs have always been a problem since the very start.

Is there like some good reason that we need to enter a name for the protagonist in Persona games? They all end up with canonical names anyway, I think the dialog would be a lot less weird if they just used the name.

"We solved the case, and it's all thanks to [THIS GUY]"

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

Because there's some level of self-insertion (especially since you can romance most of the females) so giving them a specific name can help with that if you want. Even other games like Dragon Age also do it, they just use a different stand-in like Warden or Hawke or Inquisitor so it's less awkward.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


I always feel like one of the strengths of (modern) Persona is the freedom of how you invest your time meaning that someone's first playthrough is tangibly different than someone else's, both in gameplay and in narrative experience, thanks to radically different approaches to social links/confidants. I think a nameable protagonist makes even more sense there than it does with most other games that use it (where I also like the option).

Yu Narukami may be the 'canonical' P4 protagonist, but that doesn't mean everyone played the 'canonical' P4 route. The guy I named Ashley had quite a different experience from the guy someone else named Charlie.

Detective No. 27
Jun 7, 2006



I know Japanese doesn't have pronouns, but was Yu's name supposed to work as a pun in Japanese, or was that pun just a happy accident that worked in English?

Arist
Feb 13, 2012



Oven Wrangler

Yu isn't even the original "canon" name.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

Yeah it was Souji Seta, which is pretty terrible and nobody uses it now. Whereas people will still debate between Ren and Akira.

Arist
Feb 13, 2012



Oven Wrangler

Souji Seta is a good name

Akarshi
Apr 23, 2011



Nah Souji Seta is still Souji Seta in my heart. I don't know this...'Yu Narukami' person.

Pft...what next, people taking away Minato Arisato?

Booky
Feb 21, 2013

chill bug


i think EP would have been best without any silent protag, tbh. both maya and tatsuya are cool, so it sucks that in EP that maya's suddenly quiet now that she's the protag

also yu is a perfectly fine name

Taintrunner
Apr 10, 2017

LET ME HELP YOU UNDERSTAND MY POSTS


The only canon protag name is Charlie Tunoku

I used Ralphie Tunoku for P5. He’s Charlie’s brother and has an inexplicable Brooklyn accent.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.




In my P5R game the hero is now Virgil Texas.

Perfect Potato
Mar 4, 2009


Detective No. 27 posted:

I know Japanese doesn't have pronouns, but was Yu's name supposed to work as a pun in Japanese, or was that pun just a happy accident that worked in English?

I dunno but if you take Yuu as You and the base hiragana of his last name Narukami you can get something like You the God or thereabouts

Another possible take on it is his last name being based on his Izanagi lightning element since kaminari is Japanese for thunder/lightning and you just swap the bits around to get Narukami

THE AWESOME GHOST
Oct 21, 2005



I’ve been using Memento Mori since P3’s intro flashed that all over the screen. Bonus that Mori is an actual Japanese name

But P5 solves the name problem by calling the MC Joker. Less awkward than Senpai or Big Bro or whatever

LeSquide
Nov 1, 2012

Eat.
At.
Ed'sTM.


Karl Marx originally seized the means of production as a Phantom Thief, and then Leon Trotsky fought against counterrevolutionary sentiment that came in the suspiciously named Royal edition.

klapman
Aug 27, 2012

this char is good


Perfect Potato posted:

I dunno but if you take Yuu as You and the base hiragana of his last name Narukami you can get something like You the God or thereabouts

Another possible take on it is his last name being based on his Izanagi lightning element since kaminari is Japanese for thunder/lightning and you just swap the bits around to get Narukami

Chad Thundergod

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

I kinda like that even though the Wild Cards can all use any Persona or whatever, there's still some 'default' elemental identity based on their original Personas which is reinforced via Arena and Q. P3MC is Fire, P4MC is Lightning, and Joker is Curse.

When I go play P4G I'm gonna be kinda sad that there's no Kouga/Eiga spells there, it's just Hama/Mudo or bust.

Petiso
Apr 30, 2012





"Minato Arisato" and "Souji Seta" were never even slightly "canonical", they were used in manga adaptations which are outsourced with little involvement from Atlus and are just the manga artists' personal takes on the characters, you might as well use the stage plays' names ("Sakuya Shiomi" and "Hayato Asakawa" respectively).

For better or worse "Yuki Makoto" and "Yu Narukami" are the only ones actually endorsed by the developers and used in actual games created in-house.

I personally don't mind blank state protagonists although I wish they'd use characterized MCs once in a while to spice things up, there's no reason for Serph or Raidou to be silent protagonists when you hardly have any room to roleplay yourself or whatever.

klapman
Aug 27, 2012

this char is good


Minato Arisato is a better name for P3MC than Makoto Yuki, IMO

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

The problem is that in Persona Q you have a limit of six characters for the first/last names, so 'Arisato' and 'Narukami' won't fit.

My get around is to use 'Yu Dojima' for P4MC, since after the events of P4 he might as well be family (I mean, he is by blood, but y'know).

Hellioning
Jun 27, 2008



Consider how much simpler this would be if they just gave people default names. Like if you insist on having them be namable characters in a world of constant voice acting, ok, but at least give us a default answer so that every single adaptation doesn't need to make up a new name.

They've given us canon names for them anyway in the spinoffs, so why not just give it to us a couple of years sooner?

Varinn
May 3, 2005



i name them all raidou kuzunoha


atlus please bring my boy home

AlphaKeny1
Feb 17, 2006



I like Minato, which later give us Minako. What I'm saying is where are the FeMC options for newer Persona titles.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

My guess is it saves a lot of budget? Every line would have to be changed and voice acted to say 'she' or 'her', and then all the coding for the respective romances because they still won't get us bisexual romances, the cowards.

P3P may have been easier to code, I don't know.

AlphaKeny1
Feb 17, 2006



Yeah, plus whole new scenes would have to be created. FeMC's Valentine's day would be completely different and probably be way better than having all your waifus finding out that you're cheating on them.

Otherwise idk man. P5R kinda felt like a waste of my money. They couldn't spend actual money and development time making something more memorable and different like P3P?

Hel
Oct 9, 2012

Jokatgulm is tedium.
Jokatgulm is pain.
Jokatgulm is suffering.



ApplesandOranges posted:

My guess is it saves a lot of budget? Every line would have to be changed and voice acted to say 'she' or 'her'

Not really, just have the voices use the gender neutral they, and if you really want to, have the subtitles use he / she. When you make a game with a blank slate protagonist of that type, there is very little reason not to make gender an option.

Infinity Gaia
Feb 27, 2011

a storm is coming...


I mean, think of Royal less like a P3P and more like a FES/Golden, which is what it is. It was also probably WAY cheaper to make than an entire alternate route which would require significant changes to a lot of the Confidants, maybe even all of them, not to mention alterations to the base plot itself in several instances. Like just for starters the Kamoshida plot would almost CERTAINLY have to play out somewhat differently for a FeMC. It's not nearly as easy to replace Joker as it was to replace the P3 protag, because he was WAY more of a blank slate.

PMush Perfect
Sep 30, 2009

MY PAPER SOLDIERS
FORM A WALL
FIVE PACES THICK
AND TWICE AS TALL




It wouldn’t be so bad if PQ2 wasn’t literally the first and only game to recognize FeMC’s existence, besides a single palette swap for Labrys.

Varinn
May 3, 2005



Game dev is hard, and this is definitely from poor management but a lot of Royal felt like it should've been in the base game, honestly.

Amppelix
Aug 6, 2010



i think pretty clearly the only reason they put in a protagonist choice into portable was because it has a 100% visual novel presentation with no character animation, so they could get away with radically different scenes for a lot of the game without a whole lot of work involved.

Arist
Feb 13, 2012



Oven Wrangler

I'm pretty sure the explicit reason they put in Minako is because they had to make the presentation cuts they did and then were left with a massive abundance of space and the realization that if they didn't add something substantial to the game in return it would suck and no one would buy it.

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ChaosArgate
Oct 10, 2012

Why does everyone think I'm going to get in trouble?



Adding a female MC to P5 would probably require them to alter Kamoshida’s interactions with her and I’m not sure I want to see how that would play out.

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