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Elvis_Maximus
Oct 7, 2007

Relaxing AND Refreshing


deadly_pudding posted:

Is there like some good reason that we need to enter a name for the protagonist in Persona games? They all end up with canonical names anyway, I think the dialog would be a lot less weird if they just used the name.

"We solved the case, and it's all thanks to [THIS GUY]"

It's so you can give them funny names from different media, and then have a giggle everytime they refer to them using the Japanese honorifics op

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YggiDee
Sep 12, 2007




Souji Seta might not have been a 'canonical' name in any useful sense, but it was another three years before the anime happened and the fanfiction authors weren't going to call him 'MC-kun' for that entire span.

AlphaKeny1
Feb 17, 2006



ChaosArgate posted:

Adding a female MC to P5 would probably require them to alter Kamoshida’s interactions with her and I’m not sure I want to see how that would play out.

Would it really be super different for FeMC? Maybe there'd be a line about trying to get her on the team for creepy reasons, but he'd just treat her like a delinquent who's interfering the same way he treated the MC. The sexual abuse was Ann and Shiho's role. If done right, a female protag owning a sex pest would be pretty cool.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.




Next Persona game better have a Sukeban character. Bonus if the MC.

THE AWESOME GHOST
Oct 21, 2005



One thing I really liked about P3’s female route was how differently the characters play out. As a girl the first impression of Junpei is weird creepy rear end in a top hat and not cool new best friend

I also do not trust the P5 devs to not make that creepy with the being jailed and beaten part I’ll be honest

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





I never liked Junpei in any version of P3. The reason I prefer the Investigation Team (and Masquerade from IS) is how close everyone is. From the start you can feel the love the characters have for one another.

But SEES is a very different animal. Junpei is a resentful, jealous jerk, Yukari is ridiculously rude and hostile to Mitsuru, etc.. Now I've had many debates about P3 vs. P4 SO i know a lot of folks prefer this dynamic. They like having these intensely flawed characters who grow and better themselves through the plot. But, like, I want my cool anime friends and guy who is a bitter jerk about me is not a cool anime friend. By the time Junpei and Yukari got over their poo poo dozens of hours into the game, I had kicked them both to the curb for Mitsuru and Akihiko because they didn't annoy me.

But, again, some folks like how SEES doesn't aim for the BFFs approach like P4 and even P5. It's more of a group of cliques where the members of these cliques are friends but just merely get along with everyone else.

Arist
Feb 13, 2012



Oven Wrangler

But Junpei and Yukari are the most interesting, realistically flawed characters in the game while Mitsuru and Akihiko are barely characters. Akihiko is so boring they had to invent the protein thing for the spinoffs in order to even pretend he has a personality.

Dragonatrix
Aug 16, 2009

You have offended STRINGIE! You must be punished!


That wasn't invented for the spin-offs. He has like one line in P3 about it, in a sidequest that you can only complete on one specific day.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Arist posted:

But Junpei and Yukari are the most interesting, realistically flawed characters in the game while Mitsuru and Akihiko are barely characters. Akihiko is so boring they had to invent the protein thing for the spinoffs in order to even pretend he has a personality.

I mean, the subplot with why Shinji left and Akihiko trying to help him is a pretty big deal in P3. The entire mystery surrounding SEES before any of the new kids showed up was one of the most compelling parts of the game for me. I wanted to know what happened with Akihiko, Shinji and Mitsuru and why Shinji left to do drugs with the three goobers.

And being interesting doesn't make somebody likable or desirable to hang out with.

RevolverDivider posted:

Nah Junpei and Yukari are up there with Yosuke as the most realistic and interesting teenager characters in the series and that makes them more compelling.

Perhaps but Yosuke is also the character a lot of fans want to see brutally murdered so...kinda proves my point.

"Compelling" doesn't mean "I want to be your friend." Of course, I love Yosuke so I guess it's a matter of the character's charisma has to override what you dislike about them and that didn't happen with Junpei.

NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Jun 30, 2020

RevolverDivider
Nov 12, 2016



Nah Junpei and Yukari are up there with Yosuke as the most realistic and interesting teenager characters in the series and that makes them more compelling.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Akihiro absolutely has a personality.

His entire thing is that he felt powerless when his sister died, so he ends up trying to do everything he can to make sure that doesn't happen again. This is displayed both in his heavy competitiveness (even in Persona Q his personality is 'protein and being competitive as gently caress') and in the way he treats Tartarus as more of a fun challenge than a real danger. A good chunk of his personality is trying to be someone focused on getting stronger so he never loses anyone again which is why Shinjiro is a part of his plotline. His arc resolves when Shinjiro dies and he realizes he can't keep blaming himself for other people dying and has to focus on moving forward.

Outside of his actual character arc he's fairly snarky and sarcastic but also one of the more stable ones. People tend to mistake this for 'doesn't have a personality' largely because he isn't a motormouth like Junpei nor does he gets as many Big Dramatic Moments as Mitsuru or Yukari.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

I like Junpei fine and his P3P link is a very good one, probably top 3 in that game for me. Yukari is a bit more annoying but she's still alright in my book and a lot of her concerns are legitimate, it's just that The Answer made her the bad guy because someone needs to drive conflict in the same way that Ryuji has to be the idiot in P5.

My biggest beef with P3 is Fuuka, really. Demure wallflowers aren't usually my thing in the first place (see Haru), but at least Haru has some spice in her, whereas Fuuka is just 'oh no!' and 'I'm bad at cooking but good at inventing'.

Zvahl
Oct 14, 2005

Science Kitty Approves



Pork Pro

ApplesandOranges posted:

My biggest beef with P3 is Fuuka, really. Demure wallflowers aren't usually my thing in the first place (see Haru), but at least Haru has some spice in her, whereas Fuuka is just 'oh no!' and 'I'm bad at cooking but good at inventing'.

I still quote her deadpan gasp the enemy roughly weekly

also her calling you a cheater

Amppelix
Aug 6, 2010



NikkolasKing posted:

And being interesting doesn't make somebody likable or desirable to hang out with.
???

???????

you aren't friends with video game characters. they don't need to be "desirable to hang out with" to be great characters.

overeager overeater
Oct 16, 2011

"The cosmonauts were transfixed with wonderment as the sun set - over the Earth - there lucklessly, untethered Comrade Todd on fire."





Finished Persona 4 Golden - as a huge sucker for RPG endings where you walk around after the final boss and have everyone tell you "good job, well done" I was absolutely delighted that it let you do that for Christmas and then a second time before you leave.

Grinding enough to get Rise's Vigor Song made the Hollow Forest a lot less painful than expected (especially playing on Normal, where Mahamaon worked for surprisingly many fights).

Arist
Feb 13, 2012



Oven Wrangler

overeager overeater posted:

Finished Persona 4 Golden - as a huge sucker for RPG endings where you walk around after the final boss and have everyone tell you "good job, well done" I was absolutely delighted that it let you do that for Christmas and then a second time before you leave.

Grinding enough to get Rise's Vigor Song made the Hollow Forest a lot less painful than expected (especially playing on Normal, where Mahamaon worked for surprisingly many fights).

Nobody tell him

overeager overeater
Oct 16, 2011

"The cosmonauts were transfixed with wonderment as the sun set - over the Earth - there lucklessly, untethered Comrade Todd on fire."





If you're referring to the true ending, I did get that but you don't really get to walk around the city (yourself) after you defeat Izanami? The epilogue is excellent though

Arist
Feb 13, 2012



Oven Wrangler

The way you said "final boss" made me think you didn't know, oops lmao

overeager overeater
Oct 16, 2011

"The cosmonauts were transfixed with wonderment as the sun set - over the Earth - there lucklessly, untethered Comrade Todd on fire."





To be fair I was incredibly tempted to throw Namatame into the TV and consider that the proper ending, because that boss fight was immensely frustrating

overeager overeater fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Jul 1, 2020

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Amppelix posted:

???

???????

you aren't friends with video game characters. they don't need to be "desirable to hang out with" to be great characters.

I never debated their character quality, I said I didn't like them.

In a video game about making friends, that seems like an important factor.

Polderjoch
Jun 27, 2019


I'm generally not a big fan of the friendship dynamic P4 tries to go for, but my biggest issue with it coming off P3 was how everyone just kind of blends into this singular mesh that both doesn't let anyone's individual personality shine, and, outside of Yosuke, also has the cast members effectively stop existing once they join the party unless they're doing some anime hijinx. The lack of any cast interactions that don't involve the protag was also pretty dissappointing.

Ultimately though, I'm not sure I'd even call P3 as being a game primarily about making friends; sure that's a part of it but it's definitely really only focused on in the "we are a close-knit friend group" P4. P3 has been covered pretty well already and P5's premise is that you're a group of outcasts forced together by circumstance with literally no other peers you're able to interact with bar other outcasts like Mishima and Hifumi, and P1 and P2 are so drastically different they just don't factor in at all.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Polderjoch posted:

I'm generally not a big fan of the friendship dynamic P4 tries to go for, but my biggest issue with it coming off P3 was how everyone just kind of blends into this singular mesh that both doesn't let anyone's individual personality shine, and, outside of Yosuke, also has the cast members effectively stop existing once they join the party unless they're doing some anime hijinx. The lack of any cast interactions that don't involve the protag was also pretty dissappointing.

Ultimately though, I'm not sure I'd even call P3 as being a game primarily about making friends; sure that's a part of it but it's definitely really only focused on in the "we are a close-knit friend group" P4. P3 has been covered pretty well already and P5's premise is that you're a group of outcasts forced together by circumstance with literally no other peers you're able to interact with bar other outcasts like Mishima and Hifumi, and P1 and P2 are so drastically different they just don't factor in at all.

I think Innocent Sin at least has the exact same kind of thing P4 has and that's why they are my two favorite Persona games. The game is entirely about you have this small group of wacky anime friends who are closer to you than blood and you love with all your being. I think P4's main appeal and why it has maintained its popularity all these years is because of how well it makes you feel a connection to the Investigation Team and I felt Innocent Sin did the exact same for the Masquerade. And Yukino who kinda gets left out as she's the Rinoa of IS as she wasn't part of the original little kid gang.

But yeah, I think loving all of your teammates like friends/family is the driving force behind P4's success and Innocent Sin's greatness.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.




Yukino at least owns a lot.

Mraagvpeine
Nov 4, 2014

I won this avatar on a technicality this thick.

I've been reading an Innocent Sin LP on LP Zone and it's a shame that IS does Yukino dirty.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.




Mraagvpeine posted:

I've been reading an Innocent Sin LP on LP Zone and it's a shame that IS does Yukino dirty.

At least she's featured in the Anna novels since Anna has a huge crush on her in the first one.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





MonsieurChoc posted:

At least she's featured in the Anna novels since Anna has a huge crush on her in the first one.

Anna was always so weird to me because she felt like she should be more important than she is. She's really not in much of IS at all which is a shame since I did like what we saw of her and I figured she'd be around more after that but she wasn't. Glad to hear she got something to help flesh out her untapped potential.

I think she and Yukino died in my playthrough though because, cruel monster that I am, I left Yukino to grieve. But everyone was gonna die soon anyway so what's it matter.

Booky
Feb 21, 2013

chill bug


was yukino really done dirty for IS? imo she was handled pretty alright (and had much more than in EP afaik), especially cause she already had her Stuff in p1's sqq and was (like Nikkolas said) more the odd party member out of the Masked Circle club

i think anna gets a continuation of her arc in EP too, kinda? tho agreed, she's pretty cool!

Mraagvpeine
Nov 4, 2014

I won this avatar on a technicality this thick.

According to the LPer, the reasons that Yukino wasn't done well in Innocent Sin are one: it was implied in Persona 1 that she's gay and in 2 they gave her a male love interest, two: said love interest is her mentor and possibly as old as her father, three: when her love interest dies, she breaks down crying and it's up to Tatsuya, the male MC, to tell her to get back up and continue fighting because if you don't, then four: you leave her to grieve and she dies offscreen.

Booky
Feb 21, 2013

chill bug


my memories are too fuzzy to address the other points very well (though tatsuya being encouraging to his pals is iirc a Theme in IS?), but i always interpreted yukino as being a bi lady just based off of p2's story

amigolupus
Aug 25, 2017



Honestly, I like how P2 handled the cameos from the P1 cast. They're either living in the city when poo poo goes down or they noticed the strange happenings and decided to investigate on their own. It makes the world feel larger because suddenly your crew runs into these veteran Persona-users and they're here to help you out. P5 kind of sucks in this regard, where despite the Phantom Thieves and change of hearts making international news, the Shadow Operatives aren't stepping in to assess the situation. They could have sent Labrys or Ken to infiltrate the school and find out more about the Thieves.

Mraagvpeine posted:

According to the LPer, the reasons that Yukino wasn't done well in Innocent Sin are one: it was implied in Persona 1 that she's gay and in 2 they gave her a male love interest, two: said love interest is her mentor and possibly as old as her father, three: when her love interest dies, she breaks down crying and it's up to Tatsuya, the male MC, to tell her to get back up and continue fighting because if you don't, then four: you leave her to grieve and she dies offscreen.

I'm guessing the LPer thought Yukino was gay for Ms. Saeko in P1? While I guess you can read her as being in love with her teacher, the reason for it is that Yukino admires Ms. Saeko for going above and beyond to help her students, just like how Ms. Saeko helped Yukino get past her hardcore delinquent phase.

Yukino also doesn't get a male love interest. Shunsuke was her mentor and role model, and she did love him. And while he's in his 30s, he never showed romantic interest in Yukino, or was even aware of Yukino's feelings. Even when he was dying, his last words to Yukino was to tell her to keep shooting for her dreams. Taking Ms. Saeko into account, it reads more like Yukino is into people who are older than her and help her feel some stability in her life.

The Tatsuya thing is oversimplifying what happened in the scene. When Tatsuya asks Yukino to keep fighting with them, Lisa thinks he's being too harsh, while Maya agrees with him. She reminds Yukino that Shunsuke's dying wish was for Yukino to achieve her dreams, and that won't happen if the world gets destroyed by the rumors.

Not to mention that when Yukino decides to fight once more, it's because she was determined to fulfill her promise of saving Anna. And when she fulfills that, Yukino was fine with giving up her Persona for Jun, if it would help him fight alongside his friends and fulfill his dream as well.


Saying that IS did Yukino dirty just makes no sense, IMO.

amigolupus fucked around with this message at 11:21 on Jul 1, 2020

Mraagvpeine
Nov 4, 2014

I won this avatar on a technicality this thick.

I took a look and I kinda paraphrased a few things from memory. If you want to see what the LPer actually said, it's around the bottom of updates 16 and 17, here's a link.

Wark Say
Feb 22, 2013


Zofia Today
Alm: Human Disaster


Lipstick Apathy

MonsieurChoc posted:

Next Persona game better have a Sukeban character. Bonus if the MC.
See, now we're talking.

A shout-out to original recipe Yukino would be nice.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


I did some thinking about the P4 ending. I think you kind of have to uncritically accept that the fog/existence of the TV world actually was preventing the town from fixing their problems and was a supernatural phenomenon unique to Inaba. This is the really weird part to swallow because up until the very end of the true end you just assume that the TV world exists everywhere and is a metaphor for something universal (everyone in the game is relatable and fun so their problems don't seem supernatural in origin).

So in the saying goodbye to everyone but not true ending everyone is sad to see Yu go and that's it. But then in the true true ending you come back a year later and everyone is doing fantastic without Yu the mute protagonist (including random townspeople trying to find a way to exist in the post-Junes world) - he's no longer necessary like he was throughout the game. I guess the implication is that they wouldn't actually be ok without him unless the fog is gone.

Still a little odd but not as totally crazy as I thought it was at first.

PMush Perfect
Sep 30, 2009

MY PAPER SOLDIERS
FORM A WALL
FIVE PACES THICK
AND TWICE AS TALL




No Wave posted:

I did some thinking about the P4 ending.
Yeah, the way the game doesn't show anything else happening after they sadly watch him go doesn't exactly inspire confidence in things turning out okay after Yu leaves. Especially not in the Accomplice Ending, because everything's still foggy when you leave.

DemoneeHo
Nov 8, 2017

Come on hee-ho, just give us 300 more macca




NikkolasKing posted:

Ellie was the best non-Ulala party member in EP and I was sad when we got Sad Tatsuya as a party member instead of her.

I think one of many reasons I prefer IS is that it was so much better when Tatsuya didn't talk and Maya was being sassy instead of Maya just making distressed lady faces and Tatsuya being mopey. He might have perfectly good reasons to be mopey but Maya was way, way better when she talked. They took teh character with arguably the most personality and charisma in IS and...got rid of it.

There was this good essay i read a few years ago about the protagonists of P2 switching between talking and not talking. I can't find it online anymore, but the gist was that one of the reasons Tatsuya is angsty in EP, besides all of the plot reasons, is that suddenly Tatsuya has a "voice" when he didn't have one before in IS and it's making him suffer. Now that Maya became the main character, she had to relinquish her voice to Tatsuya. He wants to fix his mistake and give his "voice" back to Maya. I'm paraphrasing this essay and it was way more in-depth with its analysis, but it did make me appreciate the silent protagonist aspects of P2 a lot more.

Still, i'd rather have a speaking Maya instead of a silent Maya.

DemoneeHo
Nov 8, 2017

Come on hee-ho, just give us 300 more macca




Speaking of Persona 2, IS and EP turned 21/20 years old a couple of days ago. So here's some assorted artwork/cosplays/shitposts


https://twitter.com/caaronart/statu...132494777417730

https://twitter.com/loganntakamaki/...862533560324097

https://twitter.com/utatoners/statu...738934932553728

https://twitter.com/neutralgoddex/s...955796849889280

https://twitter.com/keys_ship/statu...810842193584128

https://twitter.com/Thanos_Pagkidis...585979202220033

https://twitter.com/ginkosilverman/...658436654620672

https://twitter.com/Master_Ed01/sta...230706190856193

amigolupus
Aug 25, 2017



Mraagvpeine posted:

I took a look and I kinda paraphrased a few things from memory. If you want to see what the LPer actually said, it's around the bottom of updates 16 and 17, here's a link.

Maybe there's some hyperbole thrown in it, but the LPer's commentary for these parts is really negative, jesus.

Saying it's character assassination by comparing what happened in this scene with the Snow Queen quest in P1 is pretty stupid. In P1, when Ms. Saeko got possessed by the Snow Queen, there was still a slim chance of saving her so Yukino had something to fight for. In IS, Shunsuke just died in front of her eyes so it's pretty understandable that she'd break down crying over it. It's the bullshit mindset of, "this characters is a tough-as-nails woman, therefore she is not allowed to show any emotion, ever!"

And like I mentioned earlier, when Tatsuya and Maya reminds Yukino of Shunsuke's dying wish, Yukino pushes past her pain because she still had something to fight for, and it was to save Anna.


The complaint that Yukino can't be bi because she loves a man is just bi erasure. Not to mention that there's the double standard in thinking that Yukino liking an older man is gross, but Yukino liking her adult female teacher is perfectly fine.

Yukino's Arcana is the Empress, and it's reflected in how she really cares for the people that gave her feelings of stability and a sense of direction with her life, and how she wants to pay it forward. This is consistent with how she takes up the older sister role for the P1 crew, and now that she's the adult in IS, she looks out for the P2 crew and wants to save Anna from her pain.

Booky
Feb 21, 2013

chill bug


quote:

I’d like you to keep this in mind. Please remember that Yukino is “canonically” straight at this point. I kind of have to wonder who was responsible for this one scene though. Satomi Tadashi was horny for idols, but according to the wiki, Yukino was modeled after an actress that Kazuma Kaneko (the character designer for a lot of the early SMT games) liked, and if this was some kind of inter-departmental warfare going on.

quote:

In case you can’t tell, Yukino’s shadow just kissed Anna. I really, really don’t get what this is supposed to be. Yukino was kind of gay-coded since the first game, and now she’s straight, and now she’s vaguely bisexual I guess? I don’t get why this is even an issue for her, and if it was, why they never showed it at any point over two games. The best part is that the reason she has a shadow has absolutely nothing to do with her sexuality.

wow, that lp really sucks rear end!

if it's not comparing yukino to other m samus (yukino's never been shown as a Tough Stoic Badass unlike samus anyways?) or getting weird about an implied bi character just being bi or doing the cinemasins bit, it's doing that circlejerky bad faith thing some people online do where they dislike something and insinuate that it's this problematic plague instead of just something they didn't like??

(apologies if i'm getting too heated, but the way that lper is talking about the character and the writing is really rubbing me the wrong way)

Saagonsa
Dec 29, 2012



Grimey Drawer

Yeah wow, that's pretty much just straight up bisexual erasure there

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Infinity Gaia
Feb 27, 2011

a storm is coming...


Man I'm up to Eridanus in my Law replay of SJ:R and it's like... I can definitely remember why I never feel comfortable going Law at any point, while I can sorta make myself go Chaos. Mastema is just so OBVIOUSLY untrustworthy going down his route feels like straight up self-sabotage. All the endings in SJ end up bad for different reasons, but at least the other two present themselves as reasonable before going off the deep end. This is, I feel, almost to the detriment of the overall plot and I think it would've been better for the narrative if Mastema was a couple degrees less obviously bad.

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