Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us $3,400 per month for bandwidth bills alone, and since we don't believe in shoving popup ads to our registered users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
«864 »
  • Post
  • Reply
Bat Ham
Apr 22, 2008

Bat Nan


vektuz posted:

Notch could change this to only store the chunks that have been modified, I guess. I bet if you took the average server and stored only the chunks that differ from what the seed would generate you'd probably get a ridiculous "compression" ratio out of it.

Except that every block would still have to have a value that says 'not affected yet'. If there was some way to go through and only add that to a block after a certain condition as been met (and I don't think there would be, based on my limited coding experience) then you'd have to have every block in a chunk updated to include it as soon as you touched anything in it. Imagine a nice juicy lag spike every time you altered a chunk in some way for the first time.


VVV Even if the chunk had a flag, which is doable, the end goal is to have a similar flag on the individual blocks though, so that Endermen wouldn't touch them. The point isn't that you can or can't test the chunk, it's that even if you could you can't then go through and add extra values to the blocks. They're either there, and off, or they'll never be there.

Bat Ham fucked around with this message at Sep 28, 2011 around 06:05

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

pseudorandom name
May 6, 2007
INSOLENT


Grimey Drawer

Chunks are stored in a regular NBT (inside a MCRegion file now), so you can store arbitrary data associated with a chunk, like your hypothetical "has been modified" flag.

Clockwork Cupcake
Oct 31, 2010



I think it'd really go a long way toward making Endermen not terribly annoying if they just made it so they couldn't move blocks touching lava, water, redstone or rails, or any redstone stuff. Everything else is annoying but not terrible.

a cock shaped fruit
Aug 23, 2010



The true enemy of humanity is disorder.


Clockwork Cupcake posted:

I think it'd really go a long way toward making Endermen not terribly annoying if they just made it so they couldn't move blocks touching lava, water, redstone or rails, or any redstone stuff. Everything else is annoying but not terrible.

Just make them loving rare. If I saw a single missing tree block per 50 chunks, I would be fine with it.

But my forest looks like some retard has sprinted through it with a diamond axe, hewing left and right with reckless abandon.

Personally I am fine with them only picking up natural poo poo like dirt/sand/gravel, because who cares, I was always of the opinion Endermen as a mob where 'a novel idea' but never 'a good idea.'

pseudorandom name
May 6, 2007
INSOLENT


Grimey Drawer

In addition to dirt, sand and gravel, they should also pick up mushrooms, flowers and saplings.

Also any dropped blocks floating around waiting to despawn.

Clockwork-Ringtail
Feb 28, 2007

The Sparky Madgirl

I'm pretty sure that Notch already said he's nerfing the Endermen to only pick up dirt, stone sand and gravel

Captain Matchbox
Sep 22, 2008

BOP THE STOATS


I regularly see the bottom halves of tree trunks missing while the top half is in tact hovering over a small pool of water which I assume is generated after the tree and cuts it out or something.

Kamikaze Raider
Sep 28, 2001



Clockwork-Ringtail posted:

I'm pretty sure that Notch already said he's nerfing the Endermen to only pick up dirt, stone sand and gravel

Which he then said was excessive and that he's going to reevaluate the changes.

FPzero
Oct 20, 2008



I really wish they would build primitive structures with the blocks that they pick up and that you could actually watch them doing it.

Bat Ham
Apr 22, 2008

Bat Nan


Kamikaze Raider posted:

Which he then said was excessive and that he's going to reevaluate the changes.

I got the feeling that the 'nerfing' he was referring to was in relation to fighting them, though, wasn't it? He already said that their block moving was a terrible and annoying idea, not that it was what made them interesting.

Broken Loose
Dec 25, 2002

PROGRAM
A > - - -
LR > > - -
LL > - - -


For the record, the game already tracks which blocks have been placed by the player and which are naturally occurring.

In 1.8 and later, if you place a leaf block, it will not deteriorate even if there are no wood blocks within 4 meters.

pseudorandom name
May 6, 2007
INSOLENT


Grimey Drawer

That's only leaf blocks.

FPzero
Oct 20, 2008



But the precedence is there. If the game tracks one block type, what stops it from tracking others with a bit of code additions?

Verizian
Dec 18, 2004
The spiky one.

That's more likely due to the fact that a flag hasn't been set for "lost trunk?" if false, due to never having any log blogs linked to it then it cannot rot.

To track blocks you need to add 1 bit minimum to each block in a game world. Some blocks will need to be flagged retroactively after they have been spawned which means you need a magical algorithm that can tell the difference between randomly generated terrain and all possible structures created by players. If you don't do this then maps generated before the feature gets patched in will all be flagged as untouched and fair game for endermen.

One way round it would be to do as some suggest and flag chunks instead but then you run into the same problem. Old maps will have all chunks set to allow endermen to edit them. The only way to reliably get it to work would be to take the map seed and compare each and every chunk/block placement with the loaded map and a copy of the unedited map using the seed. Effectively loading two worlds at the same time then spending a long time comparing the millions of blocks in even a small map file.

Plus if the seed generation code changes then so will the end result. Imagine if they added a third type of flower spawning on grass, it would flag a shitload of changes.

Verizian fucked around with this message at Sep 28, 2011 around 07:16

pseudorandom name
May 6, 2007
INSOLENT


Grimey Drawer

Code isn't the problem, it's the lack of space in the chunk format.

Every block in the world is stored in two bytes -- one byte is the block type, four bits for lighting, and the other four bits for block specific details. For leaves, those four bits encode the type of leaf it is and whether or not it was placed by a player. Those four bits are used by other blocks for other things.

FPzero
Oct 20, 2008



Okay well that makes sense then. I didn't know how the block format worked.

I really like Endermen as a concept and even in practice, I don't mind the holes in things as much as you guys do I guess.

Double Punctuation
Dec 30, 2009

Ships were made for sinking;
Whiskey made for drinking;
If we were made of cellophane
We'd all get stinking drunk much faster!


For those of you wondering about ore distributions, I'm creating a spreadsheet that lists them and graphs them out. It will take a while, but I do have results on diamonds in 1.9pre (with structures on). Based on a map of 13413 chunks, roughly centered at the origin, there are about 2 diamonds per chunk now, which, if the wiki is correct, is about half what it used to be. Diamonds are still concentrated around lava level. Counting the lowest block as y = 0, most diamonds can be found at y values from 7 to 14, with slightly more at the higher end of that range.

In short: Yes, diamonds are rarer now. No, the optimal mining depth has not changed. For best results, mine directly above the lava layer (which still ends at y = 12). You'll find diamonds about 1 every 40 meters that way. You could mine one block lower for slightly more diamonds, but the increase is minuscule at that depth. You can be safer and mine a block higher for less chance of falling into lava, but your chances decrease to 1 in 45 meters.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


dpbjinc posted:

In short: Yes, diamonds are rarer now. No, the optimal mining depth has not changed. For best results, mine directly above the lava layer (which still ends at y = 12). You'll find diamonds about 1 every 40 meters that way. You could mine one block lower for slightly more diamonds, but the increase is minuscule at that depth. You can be safer and mine a block higher for less chance of falling into lava, but your chances decrease to 1 in 45 meters.

Wait, it's better to mine at 12-16 than right down at the bedrock?

I'VE BEEN LIVING A LIE!

Senator Woofington
Jul 31, 2009

by Ozmaugh


Speaking of bedrock type things, I have been mining between layer 1 and 16 for miles now. Literally just going everywhere I can, whether its strip mining or following a cave and I have never come across a slime. I'm talking miles and miles of cave.

Nenonen
Oct 22, 2009



Fallen Rib

Notch only has one option, to change the name of Mojang to Scrolls and then:

Only registered members can see post attachments!

Dr. Chainsaws PhD
May 21, 2011

Fuck medical school!
Let's get drunk and eat chicken fingers!



Garfu posted:

Why not just Skrolls... with a K.

He could go the 90s route and name it "Skrollz".

SKROLLZ: THE MOST XTREME CARD GAME

pseudorandom name
May 6, 2007
INSOLENT


Grimey Drawer

That'd just prompt Marvel Disney to sue Mojang over the similarity to Skrull.

Broken Loose
Dec 25, 2002

PROGRAM
A > - - -
LR > > - -
LL > - - -


pseudorandom name posted:

Code isn't the problem, it's the lack of space in the chunk format.

Every block in the world is stored in two bytes -- one byte is the block type, four bits for lighting, and the other four bits for block specific details. For leaves, those four bits encode the type of leaf it is and whether or not it was placed by a player. Those four bits are used by other blocks for other things.

While true, the precedence is there. For instance, Treecapitator only will decapitate naturally-growing log blocks. If you attempt to chop down a house, you'll just get a single block.

In fact, I would dare ask the goon who made the Treecapitator mod whether or not he had to add an extra flag or bit to log blocks that allow the mod to work.

pseudorandom name
May 6, 2007
INSOLENT


Grimey Drawer

Log blocks have enough leftover bits to store that information (there are only three types of log, which only needs log2 3 = 1.58 bits to store).

edit: Also, I want those extra log bits to store north/south, east/west, vertical orientation, not some stupid player placed flag.

pseudorandom name fucked around with this message at Sep 28, 2011 around 08:41

Edminster
Jun 15, 2007

Vaginas, my subject.
Plane hulls, my medium.


dpbjinc posted:

For those of you wondering about ore distributions, I'm creating a spreadsheet that lists them and graphs them out. It will take a while, but I do have results on diamonds in 1.9pre (with structures on). Based on a map of 13413 chunks, roughly centered at the origin, there are about 2 diamonds per chunk now, which, if the wiki is correct, is about half what it used to be. Diamonds are still concentrated around lava level. Counting the lowest block as y = 0, most diamonds can be found at y values from 7 to 14, with slightly more at the higher end of that range.

In short: Yes, diamonds are rarer now. No, the optimal mining depth has not changed. For best results, mine directly above the lava layer (which still ends at y = 12). You'll find diamonds about 1 every 40 meters that way. You could mine one block lower for slightly more diamonds, but the increase is minuscule at that depth. You can be safer and mine a block higher for less chance of falling into lava, but your chances decrease to 1 in 45 meters.

You can find diamonds in Mineshaft chests, right? It would be interesting to see whether or not that would account for the drop in diamond ore.

Mordaedil
Oct 25, 2007

Oh wow, cool. Good job.
So?


Grimey Drawer

neogeo0823 posted:

I understand this whole PROFESSIONALISM thing, but it sounds like it'd be like McDonalds suing old farmer McDonald for setting up a produce stand.

I honestly do not get this. Games design is basically one step above making board games aimed at children, filled with gimmicks to sell well.

If expected to be taken professionally all the time, it becomes like asking clowns to act in a drama piece. It doesn't really jive well.

Vib Rib
Jul 23, 2007

God damn this shit is
fuckin' re-dic-a-liss


waffle posted:

Outside of the moving player blocks issue, I think one of the easiest steps twoards making Endermen interesting would be to have them build structures, rather than having them randomly move blocks around
I'd say they just need their damage cranked way, way up. I seem to remember them originally hitting like a truck, but now they do about the same damage as zombies. I'm not demanding a one-hit-kill (necessarily) but since they're relatively frail and take less shots to the player than zombies, an amped-up damage output would really go a long way.

Broken Loose posted:

In 1.8 and later, if you place a leaf block, it will not deteriorate even if there are no wood blocks within 4 meters.
I get the distinct feeling all this really does is skip a check on the leaf decay that's normally made, because I've placed leaves, then destroyed a block next to them, and the update caused them to decay a few seconds later. I don't believe it's actually just marking the leaf as player-placed.

A Fancy 400 lbs
Jul 23, 2008


Mordaedil posted:

If expected to be taken professionally all the time, it becomes like asking clowns to act in a drama piece. It doesn't really jive well.

Someone's never seen Twelfth Night.

Mordaedil
Oct 25, 2007

Oh wow, cool. Good job.
So?


Grimey Drawer

A Fancy 400 lbs posted:

Someone's never seen Twelfth Night.

I really need to catch up on my ancient literature.

William Shakespeare at it's finest, I assume.

Odette
Mar 19, 2011



Mordaedil posted:

I really need to catch up on my ancient literature.

William Shakespeare at it's finest, I assume.

Nah man, pretty sure it's Stephenie Meyer. Wrote some really great books or something.

Mordaedil
Oct 25, 2007

Oh wow, cool. Good job.
So?


Grimey Drawer

Odette posted:

Nah man, pretty sure it's Stephenie Meyer. Wrote some really great books or something.

I understand that you are confusing it with Twilight. I suppose you can call them great books in that the collection of volumes consume more space than a Bible.

Al!
Apr 2, 2010





Mojang tried to trademark the word Scrolls so Bethesda/Zenimax pretty much had no choice but to sue them otherwise Mojang might have a claim on their name. Unless Mojang really pushes for the case to go to trial this will be settled out of court for basically peanuts and everybody's lawyers will get a big fat paycheck. Otherwise it'll go to trial, take years, cost everybody tons of money and everybody's lawyers get rich. Stop pretending that this Bethesda is drawing this lawsuit up out of spite or that this is some sort of David vs Goliath situation.

Hexadecimal Gnome
Apr 20, 2008

~a crackerjack typist~


Mordaedil posted:

If expected to be taken professionally all the time, it becomes like asking clowns to act in a drama piece. It doesn't really jive well.

You, sir, do not know the meaning of tragicomedy

Schweinhund
Oct 23, 2004



Al! posted:

Mojang tried to trademark the word Scrolls so Bethesda/Zenimax pretty much had no choice but to sue them otherwise Mojang might have a claim on their name.

This is just ridiculously wrong.

Lavender Philtrum
May 16, 2011


Schweinhund posted:

This is just ridiculously wrong.

I don't see how what he said was wrong at all. It's been said time and time again recently but basically you are required by law to defend your trademark if something is threatening it. In this case, Bethesda has a game called The Elder Scrolls. Mojang has created a game called Scrolls. Thus Bethesda is forced to defend their older patent or possibly lose the rights to use it. You might think "oh, but scrolls isn't that close to the elder scrolls, and they're both totally different games!".

That might make sense to a seasoned gamer but a judge is going to say "This game is called Scrolls and this game is called the Elder Scrolls. They're both video games. Bethesda wins." The same would happen if someone tried to make a game called Combat Evolved.

Lavender Philtrum fucked around with this message at Sep 28, 2011 around 11:50

mrpwase
Apr 21, 2010

You must be a real threat in the 'Shitposting' contest.



I was led to understand that if Bethesda don't instruct their legal team to sue, if another games company actually does infringe the trademark (as opposed to trivially, as Mojang have done), Bethesda's case would be damaged because they would have been shown to not have defended their trademark previously. I highly doubt that Bethesda, with a decent reputation for not being EA, would launch something like this or handle it in the way they have done out of spite.

e;f,b

Hadlock
Nov 9, 2004



Alternately, Mojang could offer to buy a trademark licence for $1

Nenonen
Oct 22, 2009



Fallen Rib

Lavender Philtrum posted:

I don't see how what he said was wrong at all. It's been said time and time again recently but basically you are required by law to defend your trademark if something is threatening it. In this case, Bethesda has a game called The Elder Scrolls. Mojang has created a game called Scrolls. Thus Bethesda is forced to defend their older patent or possibly lose the rights to use it. You might think "oh, but scrolls isn't that close to the elder scrolls, and they're both totally different games!".

Except that suing isn't the only viable course. You could just as well go with the more civilized way of including a blurb "The Elder Scrolls is the trademark of Bethesda" in Scrolls' legal notes, and it would be difficult to use it as a precedent. For example when LucasArts started the Star Wars Battlefront series, there was a little game company Battlefront. LucasArts and Battlefront made a deal that on the SW game's homepage there is a blurb saying the site's not affiliated with Battlefront.com which is the trademark of Battlefront.com Ltd and everyone was happy.

quote:

That might make sense to a seasoned gamer but a judge is going to say "This game is called Scrolls and this game is called the Elder Scrolls. They're both video games. Bethesda wins."

Keep in mind that this is happening in Sweden, not USA, so the judge is not legally required to be an idiot.

Kilonum
Sep 30, 2002



Also, US courts have pretty much told companies filing similar suits in the past to go gently caress themselves.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Jesto
Dec 22, 2004

Balls.


Nevermind.

Jesto fucked around with this message at Oct 1, 2014 around 14:33

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply
«864 »