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Broken Loose
Dec 25, 2002

PROGRAM
A > - - -
LR > > - -
LL > - - -

40 OZ posted:

This is more philosophical and I don't see how tier whoring or 'trying to win at all costs' or whatever can cripple or damage a scene. That guy who plays a gimmicky blanka at your local scene is teaching you all of those gimmicks so you don't get gimmicked out during tournament play. That guy who plays phoenix is teaching you how to fight phoenix.

You're correct for the most part, but I believe there is a way that gimmick victories can reduce the quality of a scene. If a group of players never try to innovate, but instead wait through the lifespan of a game for somebody else to "solve" it for them, then it hurts the scene in general. There's nothing wrong with netdecking and xcopying things you see online or offline, but refusing to play a game until all the roads have been paved kills the player base.

Yes, I've actually seen players who'd rather wait to play a game until all the good things have been found out because they don't want to put in any work. And, of course, half the time when the game is found out they complain that there's no scene for the game in question.

There is also the Prisoner's Dilemma of whether or not to share information in your scene. This is really frustrating and heinous when it happens because all it does is reduce the overall skill level of everybody when you keep arbitrary secrets.

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Jmcrofts
Jan 7, 2008

just chillin' in the club
Lipstick Apathy
People keep secrets from others in their scene? We share all tech freely among ourselves, and use that top-secret info to blow up other scenes (get owned, indianapolis).

40 OZ
May 16, 2003

Broken Loose posted:

You're correct for the most part, but I believe there is a way that gimmick victories can reduce the quality of a scene. If a group of players never try to innovate, but instead wait through the lifespan of a game for somebody else to "solve" it for them, then it hurts the scene in general. There's nothing wrong with netdecking and xcopying things you see online or offline, but refusing to play a game until all the roads have been paved kills the player base.

Yes, I've actually seen players who'd rather wait to play a game until all the good things have been found out because they don't want to put in any work. And, of course, half the time when the game is found out they complain that there's no scene for the game in question.

I live and let live. I will probably play a dozen or more different guys at a typical scene meet so I get to play all kinds of players. I don't mind playing all kinds of players. If every single guy was all gimmicks or playing Yun, yeah I would get annoyed, I guess. I tend to gravitate towards players whom I have trouble against their character and try to work on the matchup, discussing what is going on.

Broken Loose posted:

There is also the Prisoner's Dilemma of whether or not to share information in your scene. This is really frustrating and heinous when it happens because all it does is reduce the overall skill level of everybody when you keep arbitrary secrets.

You are in a bigger scene I believe which has big competitive ranbats. NYC has had this problem too- if a scene gets big enough to where people are fighting and popping off to be the best there or win the 200$, well yeah it is a problem. It just ends up splitting off into little cliques of guys who share. You guys are supposed to all be on the same team. If you play guile and your best player beats a top guile at a major, you should feel good about yourself. You share a tiny part in that guy's victory.

At small scenes ranbats don't have cash prizes or big trophies and are usually just a whiteboard somewhere.

ThePhenomenalBaby
May 3, 2011
If I was good/inventive enough to discover poo poo on my own I'd share it all the time. If I had found quicksilver glitch on like day one I woulda posted that poo poo right here. But that's just me.

Question Mark Mound
Jun 14, 2006

Tokyo Crystal Mew
Dancing Godzilla

ThePhenomenalBaby posted:

If I was good/inventive enough to discover poo poo on my own I'd share it all the time. If I had found quicksilver glitch on like day one I woulda posted that poo poo right here. But that's just me.
Same. I'm of the opinion that if I let people know what my tricks are, they'll learn to beat them, so I'll have to learn new better tricks to beat them again and so on. Then, eventually, when I know every drat way to beat someone, I go to another scene and bust them up.

The second part of my plan has never actually happened. :(

Brosnan
Nov 13, 2004

Pwning the incels with my waifu fg character. Get trolled :twisted:
Lipstick Apathy

Question Mark Mound posted:

Same. I'm of the opinion that if I let people know what my tricks are, they'll learn to beat them, so I'll have to learn new better tricks to beat them again and so on. Then, eventually, when I know every drat way to beat someone, I go to another scene and bust them up.

The second part of my plan has never actually happened. :(

This is why I need more people to play with. I pretty much have my friend downloaded and can make him pretty mad with Jill, but I'm sure if I tried to play someone else with her I'd get poo poo on.

ACES CURE PLANES
Oct 21, 2010



I don't know where people find these magical, perfect scenes, but every scene I've ever found has just been filled with the worst of the worst.

One was a group of elitist cockbags who, at one point, actually screamed and cursed at a person who had just joined because he wasn't very good, and such. Despite his obvious willingness to learn, they just kept telling him to get out. He never came back, and I too left shortly after that.

The other was a group of Brawl fans that occasionally dabbled in other things, but they weren't very good at it. The most recent one was a group of dope-smoking retards who probably had a mere handful of braincells between them, and the one time I went to a session with them, it was mainly involved with watching people beat their faces against a controller and were amazed when things happen. (Dust + Jump combo is apparently loving amazing in their world)

Wisconsin: Where FGs go to die.

Jmcrofts
Jan 7, 2008

just chillin' in the club
Lipstick Apathy

S-Alpha posted:

I don't know where people find these magical, perfect scenes, but every scene I've ever found has just been filled with the worst of the worst.

State (or just large) colleges.

Konstantin
Jun 20, 2005
And the Lord said, "Look, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is only the beginning of what they will do; nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them.
Plus, chances are your brand new super secret tech will be up on youtube and SRK in a few weeks. That, or there is some non-obvious counter that the few people you share it with aren't seeing, so you end up finding out about it when you go to a tournament.

Also, playing against low tiers is very beneficial, especially if you are serious. Filipino Champ got eliminated from a major tournament because he didn't know the mechanics of Arthur's Level 3 super. If you have characters that don't get play in your scene, make a point of playing them online or pick them up yourself so you know how they work.

Brannock
Feb 9, 2006

by exmarx
Fallen Rib

S-Alpha posted:

One was a group of elitist cockbags who, at one point, actually screamed and cursed at a person who had just joined because he wasn't very good, and such. Despite his obvious willingness to learn, they just kept telling him to get out. He never came back, and I too left shortly after that.

:stare: How does this even happen?

Broken Loose
Dec 25, 2002

PROGRAM
A > - - -
LR > > - -
LL > - - -

Konstantin posted:

Also, playing against low tiers is very beneficial, especially if you are serious. Filipino Champ got eliminated from a major tournament because he didn't know the mechanics of Arthur's Level 3 super. If you have characters that don't get play in your scene, make a point of playing them online or pick them up yourself so you know how they work.

Actually, I think he mashed X-Factor (which causes you to attack immediately). But we'll never know the truth; we'll only remember the look on his face.

ACES CURE PLANES
Oct 21, 2010



Brannock posted:

:stare: How does this even happen?

I don't know, they were doing their SFIV session so I wasn't paying attention (I don't really play the game), but I think it was some poo poo about non-optimal combos or FADCs or some guff, I don't really know. Nor care at this point. But people like that are just intolerable.

Jmcrofts posted:

State (or just large) colleges.

All of the aforementioned groups were college groups. Shootoffs of the larger gaming clubs in the area, I believe.

40 OZ
May 16, 2003

S-Alpha posted:

I don't know, they were doing their SFIV session so I wasn't paying attention (I don't really play the game), but I think it was some poo poo about non-optimal combos or FADCs or some guff, I don't really know. Nor care at this point. But people like that are just intolerable.

This is really shocking, are you sure you didn't misunderstand what happened? I literally cannot recreate this scenario in my mind.

quote:

Shootoffs of the larger gaming clubs in the area, I believe.

This is the problem. You don't want anime club's FG night or D&D club's FG night. These exist and they are completely different.

40 OZ fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Oct 31, 2011

TacticalHoodie
May 7, 2007

40 OZ posted:

I live and let live. I will probably play a dozen or more different guys at a typical scene meet so I get to play all kinds of players. I don't mind playing all kinds of players. If every single guy was all gimmicks or playing Yun, yeah I would get annoyed, I guess. I tend to gravitate towards players whom I have trouble against their character and try to work on the match up, discussing what is going on.

I try to do stuff like that but people are usually bell-ends and get all "IN YOUR FACE" when the match ends or don't have the social skills or knowledge to discuss such things. You can't learn anything because they pretty much show they don't care and just want easy wins. All they want to cement this "the local champ" reputation and bitch when other scenes comes to our tournaments and like only 2 guys make it to top 8 and everyone else get knocked out in the opening pools.

There used to be a few guys who were pretty good and kept the scene in order but they moved away for work and the void was filled people who kept telling everyone they could do better but were too lazy to try until the opportunity rose to change something decent into garbage. They are going to stream the weekly casuals in the New Year but it is just going to become a forum for them to circle jerk some more coupled with really arrogant commentary about "how lovely everyone is". They really believe that shouting out how terrible someone is will make them a better player.

Now they want to let the University Smash Bros players into the fold and try to get more "hype into the scene". They really have no idea what they want to do and they keep on doing it over and over again.

rocket USA
Sep 14, 2011

S-Alpha posted:

All of the aforementioned groups were college groups. Shootoffs of the larger gaming clubs in the area, I believe.

One of the absolute best decisions our local college fighting game group made (Jmcrofts can probably back me up on this) was to be inclusive but also to have little or nothing to do with the bigger campus gaming clubs.

ACES CURE PLANES
Oct 21, 2010



40 OZ posted:

This is really shocking, are you sure you didn't misunderstand what happened? I literally cannot recreate this scenario in my mind.

I dunno, maybe, but I do remember them going on about "Get out, you're bringing us down, wasting our time" and whatnot. Something about if you're not TOP TIER enough to be WORTHY of their TIME then you should just GET OUT.

Christ, even thinking about it again makes me want to slug them.

Editing to quote the same post that was edited to quote my post again. :psyduck:

40 OZ posted:

This is the problem. You don't want anime club's FG night or D&D club's FG night. These exist and they are completely different.

Well, to be clearer, in all of these cases, they were merely subsections of the preexisting anime, D&D, and gaming club. All three were combined into one because the groups wouldn't qualify as being large enough if they were separated.

ACES CURE PLANES fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Oct 31, 2011

PalmTreeFun
Apr 25, 2010

*toot*

Broken Loose posted:

Also, that animation looks really lifeless. Either the show had really poo poo animation or the guys doing the game need to study good 2D art like Looney Tunes or Darkstalkers.

The show has really poo poo animation. It reeks of Flash tweens.

40 OZ
May 16, 2003

S-Alpha posted:

I dunno, maybe, but I do remember them going on about "Get out, you're bringing us down, wasting our time" and whatnot. Something about if you're not TOP TIER enough to be WORTHY of their TIME then you should just GET OUT.

Christ, even thinking about it again makes me want to slug them.

Yeah I guess I just want to refuse to believe that someone could ever get remotely good at fighting games and say something like that. Jesus

I'm just thinking out loud here, I wonder if the environment has something to do with it? At the house/apartment meetups I've been to, there are lots of setups and its someone's house so aggression or popping off would be completely inappropriate. If someone was unruly you'd be thrown out, and besides most everybody is split off into small groups by each setup. There is usually a little macho business when visitors come from nearby scenes, but nothing ridiculous.

Arcades were usually a whole different ballgame when they were popular. You could get your rear end beat if someone thought you were a cheap player. Was this on-campus where this guy did this?

40 OZ fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Oct 31, 2011

Nerokerubina
Jun 7, 2007

I think swords are neat. Do you think swords are neat?!

PalmTreeFun posted:

The show has really poo poo animation. It reeks of Flash tweens.

i'm pretty sure it's literally made in flash.

Metrohunter
Sep 30, 2009

Ain't no thing like me, 'cept me.

Nerokerubina posted:

i'm pretty sure it's literally made in flash.

Several cartoons are made in Flash these days. The varying quality of cartoons made in Flash is hardly related to fighting games, though.

ACES CURE PLANES
Oct 21, 2010



40 OZ posted:

Arcades were usually a whole different ballgame when they were popular. You could get your rear end beat if someone thought you were a cheap player. Was this on-campus where this guy did this?

The group rotated around every now and again, and it was at a guy's house that time. The guy whose house it was was the one who went off on him first.

Yeah. I don't know.

40 OZ
May 16, 2003

S-Alpha posted:

The group rotated around every now and again, and it was at a guy's house that time. The guy whose house it was was the one who went off on him first.

Yeah. I don't know.

Ah, I see. That makes sense.

It is just depressing to hear these horror stories.

iPodschun
Dec 29, 2004

Sherlock House

S-Alpha posted:

Wisconsin: Where FGs go to die.
I don't know if this helps too much because I don't know where you are in WI but Keits (guy who runs SRK front page and the Wake Up Shoryuken podcast) is from Green Bay I think. He got top 32 at Season's Beatings in MvC3 so I'm sure he had to have been playing some people. Try getting in contact with him

PalmTreeFun
Apr 25, 2010

*toot*

S-Alpha posted:

One was a group of elitist cockbags who, at one point, actually screamed and cursed at a person who had just joined because he wasn't very good, and such. Despite his obvious willingness to learn, they just kept telling him to get out. He never came back, and I too left shortly after that.

...

Wisconsin: Where FGs go to die.

Our fighting game scene is literally the TF2 goon community? I thought we didn't even have one, but that's even worse.

vvvv No I mean the LC's.

PalmTreeFun fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Oct 31, 2011

40 OZ
May 16, 2003

PalmTreeFun posted:

Our fighting game scene is literally the TF2 goon community? I thought we didn't even have one, but that's even worse.

You mean the TF2 goon community that runs babygoons, the coaching service for new/bad players by really good players? The tf2 goon community unironically owns.

angel opportunity
Sep 7, 2004

Total Eclipse of the Heart
I remember in Chongqing arcade scene there were two main different groups but we traveled back and forth between different arcades so it was still like a unified scene even though everyone had their home arcade. The only lovely thing was only a few of the best players would want to talk about what you did right and wrong after a session of matches. When I visited Chengdu people had notepads out and stuff and were writing down mistakes they made and matchup specific stuff. You'd get into ten minute discussions after playing someone about really specific stuff. It was sick.

After I got back to Gainesville the scene was just starting to get bigger, one guy here has been putting a lot of effort in to actively build it. None of us are really able to host "crack sessions" but we generally have two to three meetups per week; if it's at someone's house it's several hours long with at least three setups. The dude that put in the most work just started a campus-hosted "Wednesday Night Fights" at UF which is separate from the "gaming club" though it's still technically part of it (saved him the hassle of making his own club, but we are completely autonomous and there is no crossover). Doing this lets us have a public meetup where anyone can drop by and play and it is just kind of advertised as being out there. This has seemed to pull a lot more people out of the woodwork who we can get to attend other meetings and stuff. We usually have ranbats or tournaments at WNF and we'll host a big tournament at the end of the semester.

It's so much harder in the US to get good than it was in China. Like in China I could actively try out new poo poo that I learned at a whim; I could always just walk to the arcade and play whenever I felt like it any day of the week any time of the day. Here I have to make sure I go to a meetup and make sure that I make the most of each time I go out to a meetup or travel to a tournament. One nice thing is that I put more concentration and effort in when I play since it's usually once or twice a week instead of almost every night. When you can play whenever you want, you really can take it for granted and stagnate at times.

A lot of people advocate playing online, including our best player here, but I just can't get anything from it. If I didn't have a good scene here I would probably try to get one going, but if I couldn't I would likely just put the effort I spend on fighting games toward something else entirely instead of playing online or driving to tournaments a few times a year.

Jock Mocken
Apr 7, 2005

on point like a unicorn, strapped like tha unabomb
everyday a work day but dont wear a uniform
Gucci Mane a dapper don, capper like a Capricorn

40 OZ posted:

This is the problem. You don't want anime club's FG night or D&D club's FG night. These exist and they are completely different.

At my school there's an overall gaming club but fight night is its own thing like a couple other people are talking about. I never go to anything else so I can't speak to it but I do know that on the umbrella gaming nights someone usually brings MvC3 or something.

We have a pretty cool group though, there was a lot of CvS2 play last week and I'm gonna get some Project Justice going tomorrow. VSav was well-received as well.

SpaceBees
Jul 12, 2008

It cost me an arm and a leg to get into this club!
Its not like you can just magic players out of nowhere, which is the problem a lot of people run into, nobody is playing fighting games or has any interest or playing them. And somehow making players appear out of nowhere is still easier than trying to get Smash Bros players to play real fighting games.

If you do have a group of players but nowhere to play, a bar or pizza place or some sort of food/drink venue is probably the best place. If the venue in question is apprehensive at first, once they see how much money they are making on the nights when the fighting game players come in they will be more than happy to give you space to play and maybe even let you stay after hours. The guys I play with it always drop a ton of money on beer/pizza/coffee/whatever at the venues we play at, so the owners are more than happy to let us come play and stay a little late. Its a win-win situation. Other than that a game club at a college or something would probably be the next best choice, but you run the risk of putting yourself under a blanket of "general gaming" which will make it hard to get games in. If 90% of the consoles in the room are being used for Halo or Call of Duty that really doesn't help anyone get better at the games you actually want to be playing, and contrary to popular belief people would always rather be PLAYING than watching someone else play, regardless of whether they are better than them or not.

SpaceBees fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Nov 1, 2011

El Estrago Bonito
Dec 17, 2010

Scout Finch Bitch
If you have a pre-established group of friends who enjoy competitive games it can be easy to start a FG group. You just have to get things going.

I have a Dreamcast and fight sticks and I managed to get my entire group of gaming buddies playing MvCS2 and Last Blade. You also have to be willing to show people the ropes. I knew a guy who started out not even knowing how to hadouken and now that motherfucker will absolutely waste me as Iori (who is like hadouken motion, the character).

But maybe I game with more competitive people that y'all. Since the guys I play FGs with are all hardcore WoW raiders who spend their off time playing DotA, HoN, LoL and TF2. So they are all into high skill games that require dedication and character knowledge.

Its also nice that if you're all friends and not terribly into the bleeding edge FG scene, in which you must all play SSF4 and MvCS 24/7 the price barrier is lower. You can get a PS2 or DC with top notch fight sticks for less than forty dollars these days, depending on what price the Green Machine is going for online. And that will let you play MvCS2, Alpha 2 Gold, Third Strike, VSav, Last Blade 2, Super Turbo and even odd stuff like JoJo or TMNT.

Countblanc
Apr 20, 2005

Help a hero out!

PalmTreeFun posted:

Our fighting game scene is literally the TF2 goon community? I thought we didn't even have one, but that's even worse.

vvvv No I mean the LC's.

No one good has played on the LCs for like 8 months with any regularity.

Jock Mocken
Apr 7, 2005

on point like a unicorn, strapped like tha unabomb
everyday a work day but dont wear a uniform
Gucci Mane a dapper don, capper like a Capricorn

El Estrago Bonito posted:

If you have a pre-established group of friends who enjoy competitive games it can be easy to start a FG group. You just have to get things going.

I have a Dreamcast and fight sticks and I managed to get my entire group of gaming buddies playing MvCS2 and Last Blade. You also have to be willing to show people the ropes. I knew a guy who started out not even knowing how to hadouken and now that motherfucker will absolutely waste me as Iori (who is like hadouken motion, the character).

But maybe I game with more competitive people that y'all. Since the guys I play FGs with are all hardcore WoW raiders who spend their off time playing DotA, HoN, LoL and TF2. So they are all into high skill games that require dedication and character knowledge.

Its also nice that if you're all friends and not terribly into the bleeding edge FG scene, in which you must all play SSF4 and MvCS 24/7 the price barrier is lower. You can get a PS2 or DC with top notch fight sticks for less than forty dollars these days, depending on what price the Green Machine is going for online. And that will let you play MvCS2, Alpha 2 Gold, Third Strike, VSav, Last Blade 2, Super Turbo and even odd stuff like JoJo or TMNT.

I dunno if you've checked ebay lately but green goblin DC sticks aren't really cheap (~50 bucks or so). Local pickups may vary of course

ShinsoBEAM!
Nov 6, 2008

"Even if this body of mine is turned to dust, I will defend my country."

Jmcrofts posted:

People keep secrets from others in their scene? We share all tech freely among ourselves, and use that top-secret info to blow up other scenes (get owned, indianapolis).

Sometimes, but more often it is just once a player gets on top of the scene locally they just stop showing up to all gatherings and just blow people up for money at tournies and don't play any casuals after a month or two people figure it out they place third one time and quit the game, while talking about how poo poo the game is and how they were only in it cause they could win.

Cactus!
Sep 24, 2007

El Estrago Bonito posted:

DotA, HoN, LoL and TF2. So they are all into high skill games

Find the 2 things wrong with this statement :allears:

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

PalmTreeFun posted:

The show has really poo poo animation. It reeks of Flash tweens.

He's talking about the game itself, which has excellent animation.

http://art-eater.com/2010/07/test-1-darkstalkers/

40 OZ
May 16, 2003

Cactus! posted:

Find the 2 things wrong with this statement :allears:

It had better not be TF2 you son of a bitch.

You spent 10 hours practicing a rollout, still not get it consistently, and tell me that game has no skill.

Eckertmania
May 11, 2007

"'Hey, a computer took your place, daddy.' That's hard times! That's hard times!"

S-Alpha posted:

I don't know where people find these magical, perfect scenes, but every scene I've ever found has just been filled with the worst of the worst.

One was a group of elitist cockbags who, at one point, actually screamed and cursed at a person who had just joined because he wasn't very good, and such. Despite his obvious willingness to learn, they just kept telling him to get out. He never came back, and I too left shortly after that.

The other was a group of Brawl fans that occasionally dabbled in other things, but they weren't very good at it. The most recent one was a group of dope-smoking retards who probably had a mere handful of braincells between them, and the one time I went to a session with them, it was mainly involved with watching people beat their faces against a controller and were amazed when things happen. (Dust + Jump combo is apparently loving amazing in their world)

Wisconsin: Where FGs go to die.

Let me guess, Milwaukee and then Madison?

I'm in La Crosse, and we have an alright thing going. No 24 hour "crack sessions," but we usually go for a good 6-8 hours.

The Rokstar
Aug 19, 2002

by FactsAreUseless
Literally the only things I know about TF2 are that goons like to bitch about it and there are hats in it (that goons also like to bitch about).

40 OZ
May 16, 2003

The Rokstar posted:

Literally the only things I know about TF2 are that goons like to bitch about it and there are hats in it (that goons also like to bitch about).

Jaeger (one of the best TF2 pros) used to be a tekken tournament player. So there's that.

Dr Slouch
May 8, 2008

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

He's talking about the game itself, which has excellent animation.

http://art-eater.com/2010/07/test-1-darkstalkers/

I think he meant My Little Pony. That American Darkstalkers cartoon came out waaaay before Flash was in vogue. Did it even exist then?

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Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

Dr Slouch posted:

I think he meant My Little Pony.

You're right, I misread the post. Still, any excuse to post that Darkstalkers article.

Dr Slouch posted:

That American Darkstalkers cartoon came out waaaay before Flash was in vogue. Did it even exist then?

If it did they probably would have used it. I'm not sure if that would be better or worse than what we got.

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