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STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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triplexpac posted:

I bet Ryder would be more into doing the show if WWE pushed him in any way, to reward him for the extra work.

He started doing it to think outside the box and get himself noticed and over in a company where he wasn't being given an opportunity.

18 months and 81 episodes later he's pretty much the same place he was, a little more popular and slightly more used but still just an unused talent. That's an easy path to getting bitter.

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STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Yeah, I don't see how "poo poo or get off the pot" is a reasonable expression here. He can't "poo poo" assuming that means actually doing something with his WWE career. He tried. No one in recent memory has tried to act as his own advocate more than Ryder. It failed and that seems to be why he's so frustrated. Can he "get off the pot" either? He's contracted. Even if he decided to forgo the payment, security, and merchandising cuts he gets working there If he just went to WWE and asked for his release would he get it? I know some have but surely others have been stuck.

But either way you can't really blame a guy for saying "I gotta keep this job because its smart for my finances, family, and life." He sounds like someone trying to come to terms with his "dream job" being "just a job." I'd guess part of him wouldn't mind getting fired and seeing what's out there, but he's probably not prepared to quit over it or burn bridges.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Well, there's lots of reasons to stick with a job you hate even beyond a wife and children. Debt. Aging parents. Dependent siblings. Future plans. Who knows?

Point is quitting might not be a really viable option for the guy when there are other factors involved. But at the same time maybe he's unhappy enough to risk rocking the boat and letting someone else force a change.

I'm not a big Ryder fan but I have sympathy for the guy more than I would for most in his position considering how much he did to try and make something happen. He really did try and make this work, we all saw that. You can't accuse him of being lazy or unmotivated or asking for a break. He created a push for himself and got them chanting his name with absolutely no help from WWE. That it didn't really work has to sting and I feel bad for the guy.

STAC Goat fucked around with this message at Aug 26, 2012 around 15:18

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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4. Joe gets an immediate rematch at No Surrender on Sunday and wrestling logic would suggest he stands good odds to even the score in a bigger match.
5. The non submission wrestler Hardy going for a submission because he saw an opening with Joe's arm injury and could use the extra pts was really good psychology.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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SamuraiFoochs posted:

He doesn't have to like him but there is the whole, you know, keeping your mouth shut thing instead of making people angry and getting angry yourself for no reason at all.

I believe in keeping my mouth shut when people are in mourning but it's a tough thing and a fine line when someone you think is scum is being celebrated and praised. I was recently going through something fairly similar but much closer to me. A person I thought was true scum on a huge level died and in my heart I felt the world was better now. But he was a close friend to someone I love and she was deeply affected. It's hard to know how to act when you're biting your tongue as people around you are praising what a wonderful man he was.

And I'm not a psychopath like New Jack. I imagine he has less self control in these matters.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Oatgan posted:

John Cena would have done the video


Suben posted:

I don't really go out of my way to hate him? Like I said the other guy might've been kind of rude but Punk still comes off as a condescending jackass too. Both sides come out looking kind of douchey.

I think this is the point on Punk. Punk is a dick. People around him are dicks. A lot of people give him excuses to be a dick. He seems to take a lot of them. And people who sympathize with his reasons will then sympathize with his actions. But other guys in WWE like John Cena almost certainly encounter just as many impolite, entitled, and rude fans and we dont hear the same sort of stories with the same frequency. It's safe to assume that some people like Cena seem to handle it better than most, and some people like Punk seem to handle it worse than most.

Punk just seems to be one of those people who thinks bad behavior justifies more bad behavior. There are lots of people who feel that way, probably more than there are people who believe in turning the other cheek, being the better man, or setting an example.

STAC Goat fucked around with this message at Oct 26, 2012 around 17:28

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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1. Reks' burning hammer was sloppy as hell. I'm glad someone made him stop.
2. It does kind of look like the AA. It seems like common practice for jobbers to not be doing moves that could take away from main even terms' moves. Unfair? Maybe, but that's life.
3. Cena is a vet and main eventer, so where's the line between "pushy backstage politician" and "locker room leader"? And can the guy who blames Cena for holding Alex Riley back or thinks Tyler Reks was a notable part of the roster for 8 months really manage to judge the difference?
4. I imagine taking 8 months to notice Tyler Reks put Cena ahead of the curve. Most of my memory of the guy was every six months asking if he was still employed after randomly remembering he existed. I would have been hard pressed to tell you his signature moves or gimmick.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Paper Jam Dipper posted:

It's Twitter. You're allowed to break kayfabe on Twitter. Not only that, but people have done nothing but bitch and moan about how Cena never gives Punk respect and keeps saying he hasn't proven himself. So now you're angry that he's saying Punk accomplished something great?

poo poo is getting confusing as to what people want from John Cena.

Yeah, I don't see what other play Cena has. If he refuses to give Punk respect and acknowledgement and just goes on about how he's gotten lucky and used cheap ways to retain then Cena comes off like a petulant brat. If he ignores Punk's heel antics and just gives respect then he's ignoring the story and characters. This half and half answer seems like the logical one and really the only one he can play. "I don't like how he did it, but there's no denying he did it and that's special."

The problem isn't in his response today, its in years of his character. That wouldn't come off bad if Cena hasn't been booked for years as the aloof guy who turns his serious mode on and off and brushes every major defeat off his shoulder. But Cena can't undue that now. All he can do is give the best response he can going forward, but unfortunately the fans who are frustrated with his years of "no selling" tough losses will see this as just another case like VogeGandire did.

VogeGandire isn't wrong to look at the big picture and have a memory longer than a goldfish's. Cena and WWE aren't blameless since they made this mess. But going forward there's no easy fix because this clearly wasn't a designed story, it was just bad writing. The only easy fix for badly written fictional characters is to kill them off or reset the universe.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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I love it when wrestlers or musicians or whoever pull out that ridiculous "you've never done it so you can't judge" logic. As if they actually want me to believe they either have never judged any professional at something they are an amateur at best at, or that they're all prodigies perfect at everything so they can judge what they wish. It's such idiotic logic it makes me laugh.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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MassRayPer posted:

The idea that people who haven't done something cannot have a valid opinion of something is ridiculous, however...

There is something to be said that the best judge of a worker is the guys in the back, who they think is good and who they most want to work with.

Likewise, talented filmmakers usually know another talented filmmaker, they are inspired by the greats, etc.

(At the same time many don't give a poo poo and are completely ignorant of their profession.)

Of course intimate familiarity with a subject and real knowledge will help in a critique of anything. Whether its wrestling, music, filmmaking, politics, or whatever your peers will understand things about your performance that others don't. On the other hand you also lose a lot of objectivity in this process, especially in the case of something like wrestling where there's clearly a "fraternity" in play.

But that's not what's happening here. If I think a match sucks and then a wrestler says "What you don't realize is what happened there. Let me make the case for why the match was better than your first impression." Then I'd listen because I respect the fact that others have insight I don't possess. But comments like Bennett's aren't about that, they're about dismissing critics entirely because its easier to live in the bubble. The fact that its an attack on the very people who spend money to see him just makes it worst.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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I think the real issue is that 4 nights of the same wrestling - same roster, same product, same bookers, same basic matches and stories - is too much for any sane fan. Four nights of different kinds of wrestling might be fun but 4 nights of the same stuff is the definition of "redundant" or "overkill."

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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I feel really stupid because I don't understand any of this. Te'o is a football player who had a fake girlfriend who "died" and he may or may not have been in on it, right? King makes a couple of weird comments suggesting he was in on it and maybe it was a cover for being gay or maybe it was some grand conspiracy to distract from other things? I guess if he really believes the latter he's nuts but I'm not really sure why I should be outraged by any of this. But I'm pretty lost so maybe I'm just missing it.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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MassRayPer posted:

That and the implication he is gay was basically mocking in tone, not exactly the best way to come off.

I guess "MenLove" is mocking but it doesn't strike me as homophobic on its own. At least not like real homophobic instead of just generic "guys who call other guys gay as an insult because they've never really thought about the sociological implications" homophobic.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Saints Crow posted:

Generic homophobia is still real homophobia, hope this helps.

But it's a kind of societal unintentional kind. I'm not saying its a good thing, I'm saying its different from yelling "fag". It's ignorance born from a society never really confronting you with it. If you're like Scorpio Sky and society does confront you and you flip a finger and use it more, then you're an rear end in a top hat. If you're like Michael Cole and someone confronts you and you apologize than maybe you're alright. It's a lot of context and intent, unless you're going to just call everyone who ever says something offensive or stupid scum. Which I guess you can if you want but that's going to be a huge list.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Well I'm not defending what he said, but I'm also not reading deeper intent or feelings into it. The reaction just seemed really strong to something I could easily hear The Rock saying on Monday Night (the ManLove thing, not the weird conspiracy thing).

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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bobkatt013 posted:

If CM was on modern family that could be very good for the WWE

Which is funny because I think Golden Bee is referring to an interview Punk did where he poo poo all over WWE and said they don't do anything and he struck a huge deal for himself with no help from WWE at all but they'll still leech off him.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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I'm not going to judge Nash for lashing out or having an immediately doubtful reaction to this stuff. People are going over the top with this "DDP Jesus" stuff and obviously being very optimistic and hopeful for Jake and Hall's chances. I am too because I'd love for it to work. But Hall isn't some random wrestler or celebrity to Nash, he's a close friend whose addiction has done God knows what kinds of emotional, psychological, and possibly physical or financial damage on Nash over the last 20 years. I've had a couple of friends like that and if you came to me and told me they were going to be "saved" by a well meaning mutual friend then I'd probably react pretty badly too. Its a raw nerve for me that other people don't have. I'm sure the same is true for Nash when it comes to Hall.

The problem is he shouldn't be saying that poo poo on Twitter, but what's social media if its not sharing and saying inappropriate things in public and immortalizing things you say and do in the heat of the moment? Politics in 20 years are going to be amazing.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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If the internet had essentially turned my life long's friend addiction and struggles into a meme I bet I'd end up getting pissed off over it for a day or two as well. I think its that simple. This stuff is personal to Nash and seeing it all over the web, seeing people act like its a done deal because Hall accepted DDP's invitation, or anything he might be getting directly from assholes on Twitter, Facebook, or wherever probably just hit some raw nerves.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Little Mac posted:

"Poison Fist of the Pacific Rim" is the best loving nickname. Striker owned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP1wqmb9fTo

I don't know why it amuses me that I recognized the name of the guy he was cutting a promo on as Robbie E. Why do I now want to see a Striker vs Robbie E match?

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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"Skid marks" is in OVW and is married to Tracy Smother's daughter. He, Ivelisse, Matt Cross and the Funkadactyl are the only ones I've noticed have any profile in wrestling after the show.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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It came off as innocent to me when I watched it. She seemed to be laughing along with it, if a bit embarrassed. But obviously if she wasn't ok with it, and her tweet would suggest that's the case, than it wasn't ok. First impressions of things where you don't know the parties can be wrong. Some people would laugh at that and some wouldn't. Context and individual personalities and relationships matter a lot.

Assuming Hemme's tweet wasn't kayfabe and assuming Aries' tweet wasn't heeling it up then the whole situation is messed up. I just assumed it was harmless at the time it first happened, and that doesn't seem unreasonable.

An example of this would be Triple H calling Lilian Garcia a horseface. Either she thinks that's good harmless fun and she's ok with it so its just simple teasing, or she's really embarrassed by it and he's a chauvinistic prick. The entire reality of the situation comes down to what kind of people Triple H and Garcia are and what kind of relationship they have in private.

Austin Aries is a dick and was one long before the Boston Bombing tweet so it was probably a lovely thing. The only thing that confuses me is that apparently in 2013 sexual harassment complaints are done on Twitter. But what isn't?

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Absolutely. I was just saying that it wasn't clear that was intimidation instead of good humor at first viewing. But the tweets taken at face value absolutely do paint a clearer picture. The damning act is almost less the actual thing that happened in the ring and more his insulting response to her. The first could have been bad judgment, the second is a poo poo attitude.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Of all of Vince's weird stuff I think the smoking one is the least weird one to me. Personally I don't get mad at smokers or freak out but I also don't enjoy secondhand smoke, smelling them on people, smelling them on my clothes, kissing a smoker, waiting for smokers to get done when we have to do something together. Like I said, I don't get mad over it. They're just inconveniences you deal with, but I'm not crazy like Vince. Vince wouldn't be the first person I've encountered who loses their shift over minor things I can let roll off my back.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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I doubt anyone could really take offense from that (well, people ca take offense to anything). That really just embarrassed Cole and exposed not only his stupidity but his obnoxious stubbornness when people corrected him and he kept fighting.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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achillesforever6 posted:

I like to imagine its more of Vince's stupidity and that those were all fed lines.

I'm sure Vince might be that stupid too but I really believe that was Cole. You could hear such defeat and embarrassment in his voice when everyone jumped all over him and said Puerto Rico was part of America. He just let out this meek little "Really? It is?" Then he collected himself and started his "Well, still its not the same thing!" silliness. I really rewatched that clip like a dozen times Monday night. Not only because the exchange was so funny and Cole sounded like such a jackass but because Claudio and Sin Cara were having a nice little match and I'm pretty sure a really cool sequence was happening while the announcers were arguing with each other.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Right, but Cole wasn't saying "Puerto Ricans aren't really Americans" the way Zeb might say it. He wasn't insulting the people, territory, or their state. He just literally was clueless to the reality of the situation and was talking out of his own rear end. I think most reasonable people can see that and recognize that the joke is entirely on him in that case. He wasn't voicing a subjective opinion or defending a questionable idea. He was just straight up wrong objectively.

I mean, I think the lesson to be learned from this is that Michael Cole is stupid. Not regular stupid, but "Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader?" stupid. The answer is no, Michael Cole is not smarter than a fifth grader. WWE should be embarrassed that someone that stupid is the voice of their product, not that he said something stupid and patently untrue about Puerto Ricans.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Yeah, I doubt Cole ever put more than two seconds of thought to it. He probably reached for his passport and then when no one asked for it he shrugged and got on the plane.

KungFu Grip posted:

Cole brought up to Zeb that Zeb wrestled in a Spanish speaking country, Puerto Rico, and Zeb yelled down to him that he did and that Puerto Rico is part of America. Cole then started arguing that Zeb was wrong until both Lawler and JBL backed up Zeb saying that Cole is an idiot.

As i remember it Cole started a whole thing about "You worked in a country outside of America and took their money so you're a hypocrite for criticizing Sin Cara and Del Rio. And that country is Puerto Rico!" And then Zeke yelled at him and JBL immediately started cracking up and they jumped all over him. Cole had a meek and embarrassed reaction and then kind of a half assed attempt to salvage his argument but JBL just piled on him until he gave up. If he had been allowed to try and continue to save his argument he probably would have gotten pretty offensive to Puerto Rican since he seemed to be headed towards "they're not real Americans" territory. But at that stage he would have basically completely looped around to Zeke's point of view which should show how stupid Cole and his argument was in the first place.

That's what kind of made it even more hilarious. It wasn't some off the cuff comment Cole made. He had a big set up for it as some kind of huge "gotcha" for Zeke. He did this reveal of "Puerto Rico" and everyone just lost it when that happened.

STAC Goat fucked around with this message at Jun 15, 2013 around 21:57

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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See, this thread now made me remember that HHH/Steiner feud. That's terrible and mean. Triple H should lose legacy points just for that.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Onmi posted:

So she thinks the Bellas had something to do with that? I mean... Maybe? They are linked with some of the WWEs biggest stars...

Maria claims she was going to be brought back to WWE with some other former Divas for a WM match but that the Bellas blocked it. Maria claims that Nikki has a problem with her because she was dancing one time with Ziggler while Ziggler and Nikki were dating, or some high school nonsense like that. Bellas have alluded to not liking Maria and her being vaguely slutty but haven't actually said anything. Then a week or so ago I even read that the Bellas dad contacted Maria and ended up fighting with her dad. So if anything I'd guess that might be why Maria is saying "let's squash this." Its kind of high school bullshit but I guess Maria was really upset because she claims it cost her a contract that she was fairly deep into making happen.

And yeah, recently it was rumored that the Bellas didn't like AJ's promo on them which is why it went nowhere. But who knows? Things going nowhere in wwe is pretty common. But there might be a little something to the "Bellas: Political Players" theory.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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triplexpac posted:

I could see the WWE bowing to Nikki's wishes while she's dating Cena, and probably Brie while she's with Bryan to a lesser extent. Even if Cena or Bryan wouldn't make a fuss, they probably don't really care about the Divas division and would rather just keep the girlfriends of their two top guys happy.

Yeah, I doubt the Bellas are power brokers or anything but if they're willing to cause a fit then WWE probably just doesn't want to rock the boat with Cena/Bryan/Total Divas for something as inconsequential to them as Maria or AJ.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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I enjoy worked shoots but I think the key to them is that they mean something. Punk worked because it kicked off all that followed including a new character and the Summer of. Punk. Joey Styles' one years ago worked because it lead to One Night Stand/ECW. AJ's could have worked but it had no follow up so it feels cheap and kind of devalues the entire idea. Ziggler doing one on the WWE App and Miz cutting one during a match that was placed so weirdly I couldn't even find it on my recording feel cheap because they are. Do enough of that cheap crap with no real gravitas and pretty soon you're Vince Russo.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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But that line has been crossed. Kayfabe died a very long time ago. I'm not even disagreeing with you as a more concrete fourth wall might very well make for a better product, but they bulldozed that wall down years ago and the product is littered with ever present reminders of that. Complaining about that in 2014 seems a lot like pissing in the wind to me. You can't stick the genie back in the bottle and the bottle probably does even exist any more the way the internet has transformed the wrestling world.

You can't compare RAW to fictional dramas because they're just not even remotely the same beast. Acting like they are just seems like sticking your head in the sand. If RAW played by the same rules as Sons of Anarchy there'd be dozens of problems every week.

Although you picked the right show to compare it to. Kudos on that. The bar is set much lower with SoA.

STAC Goat fucked around with this message at Feb 20, 2014 around 22:20

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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I think the point is that Vince is a fickle crazy man and the WWE backstage political game is an impossible quagmire. Some people have success using the exact same tactics others fail hard with. So it seems unfair to judge Ryder or Ziggler for not rolling the dice and hoping Vince is in a good mood if they've sent mixed signals with the backstage and corporate atmosphere.

Of course its also not productive to bitch on social media. But I don't really see the point of comparing it to what Mick Foley would have done considering Mick didn't have a Twitter account on those days he was feeling low and pissed off about his career. If he did he might very well have made the same mistakes in the heat of moments or at low points.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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I doubt Vince personally holds any more regard for Ziggler taking the Spirit Squad gimmick than he did for Ken Doane, Mike Mondo, Johnny Jeter, or that other guy.

If running with a bad gimmick scored you booking points than Ziggler would have main evented Wrestlemania just on being Kerwin White's caddy. Not to mention what Chavo would gave scored with that one.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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SamuraiFoochs posted:

My whole point is that the comparison to Fake Razor was spurious because one of them worked for WWE for a few months as a Russoriffic gently caress you to WCW, and one of them is a guy that has worked for the company for almost 10 years, is viewed highly enough to have won MITB and had a title run, not to mention another not-quite title run in a program with Edge to main event Smackdown in the dying days of the brand split. I'm not saying talking to Vince would 100% do anything for Ziggler, I'm saying I doubt it'd get him fired like with Fake Razor, and what's he got to lose? Being MORE buried?

But it does illustrate the basic point, that there isn't some kind of concrete system in place where Vince's door is always open for you if you're unhappy. And it underlines the fundamental truth in WWE, business, and life in general that people get away with more when they have more leverage and value. Sure, Vince's door is probably open for some people but probably not everyone. So the more expendable they are the more risk they're taking when they do something like that. You think Dolph's got decent value based on him winning the World Title, a MitB, and suffering a bad gimmick. Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong. But he might not feel he has that kind of leverage and job security to get away with it like you do. And its his job on the line. Yeah, he COULD be buried more. He's on TV way more than Zach Ryder. Or he could lose his job. Or he could just make an unpleasant work environment worse for himself. So its really easy for us to sit back and criticize him for not speaking up because we don't have to gamble any of the things he has to gamble or suffer any of the consequences he may have to suffer if it goes wrong.

Again, though, I'm not saying bitching on Twitter is in any way productive. Twitter is an unfortunate thing because its makes it incredibly easy for people to say and share things at low moments without much time to think out whether its the best idea. He's vent and bitching and in the long run that might come back to bite him, and it probably won't help. But I also feel pretty confident a few of these vets who get high and mighty about how they handled it better would have done the same thing if Twitter was around back then.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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RBX posted:

Please explain who OTHER than Fake Razor has gotten fired or such from trying to talk to Vince. I want to know. Legit question here

I don't think anyone is sincerely suggesting you'd be fired for speaking to Vince. I think the point is just that the idea that Vince's door is always open and he's receptive to anyone who has the courage to stand up for themselves is kind of silly. WWE is probably the same basic political bullshit maze that its always been suspected as. Talking to Vince probably lands you about equal chances of being pushed, being ignored, or being jobbed depending on who you are, how you do it, and what day it is.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Fair enough. Although hyperbole and all that. After all his counter case was winning the world title which seems as equally unlikely.

edit: or he can just stick up for himself before I hit reply.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Its memories like Heel Cole and Laptop GM that make me sometimes wonder if diehard WWE defenders might be suffering from Stockholm syndrome.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Right back atcha.

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STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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achillesforever6 posted:

Damien is a good guy

Hanging with a pedophile. Mixed feelings.

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