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Skrode
May 9, 2018

packetmantis posted:

That just reminded me I was going to make a BotNS effort post but forgot most of what I was going to write. :saddowns: It was about how Severian continually mistakes genuine miracles for sleight of hand (the decapitation and resurrection at his ascension ceremony) and then mistakes sleight of hand for a miracle (the beach full of Claws).

How do we know the decapitation wasn't a a slight of hand?

Skrode fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Jan 21, 2022

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felicibusbrevis
Feb 1, 2011

Hammer Bro. posted:

Does anyone have a copy of or working link to the Marc Aramini Wizard Knight reading?

I remember reading snippets of that and it actually resonating with me more than I expected. I'm about to revisit those books soon and wouldn't mind evaluating that interpretation with it fresh in my mind.

If you email him he will send it to you. His email is just his name marcaramini at gmail.

Milo and POTUS
Sep 3, 2017

I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?
I've been reading the first half of botns for a while now and I've doubtless forgot a bunch of stuff. When Severian and Jonas are in the prison in the house absolute, he mentions the claw burning bright blue when he transmuted the water in the carafe and I have no idea what this refers to. I know they do something with a vial when the nodules attack the uhlan but I don't remember any transmutation.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012

When he wakes up in the inn at saltus his water trough became wine

my bony fealty
Oct 1, 2008

felicibusbrevis posted:

If you email him he will send it to you. His email is just his name marcaramini at gmail.

thanks for this I always hate hitting an expired pastebin link

Milo and POTUS
Sep 3, 2017

I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?
Maybe it's just me but did anyone else experience a huge jump in difficulty between Claw and Sword? The first half of the series wasn't too bad; I'd probably say I got 90-95% of it and what I didn't was mostly obscure terminology but now there's entire chapters where I'm reading it and I'll get to the end and I'm like what the hell just happened

Gaius Marius posted:

When he wakes up in the inn at saltus his water trough became wine

How embarrassing, must be in the 5-10%.

Tokelau All Star
Feb 23, 2008

THE TAXES! THE FINGER THING MEANS THE TAXES!

Milo and POTUS posted:

Maybe it's just me but did anyone else experience a huge jump in difficulty between Claw and Sword? The first half of the series wasn't too bad; I'd probably say I got 90-95% of it and what I didn't was mostly obscure terminology but now there's entire chapters where I'm reading it and I'll get to the end and I'm like what the hell just happened

Idk, I actually thought they got easier to read and understand. The roughest parts for me were all in the first book (getting the avern, Dr. Talos' play), but it could be I just got more used to the style. What parts are tripping you up? Is it the storytelling bits?

Osmosisch
Sep 9, 2007

I shall make everyone look like me! Then when they trick each other, they will say "oh that Coyote, he is the smartest one, he can even trick the great Coyote."



Grimey Drawer
The sequence starting with the Alzabo in Sword of the Lictor and culminating in the encounter with Typhon usually manages to befuddle me. There's a lot of classic Wolfe timeskips and misdirection that trip me up unless I eject myself from the reading process enough to let my memory/knowledge add context.

The confused wandering in the warzone in early Citadel also always leaves me appropriately confused and disconnected from the greater plot.

Osmosisch fucked around with this message at 10:49 on Jan 27, 2022

magic cactus
Aug 3, 2019

We lied. We are not at war. There is no enemy. This is a rescue operation.

Osmosisch posted:

The sequence starting with the Alzabo in Sword of the Lictor and culminating in the encounter with Typhon usually manages to befuddle me. There's a lot of classic Wolfe timeskips and misdirection that trip me up unless I eject myself from the reading process enough to let my memory/knowledge add context.

The confused wandering in the warzone in early Citadel also always leaves me appropriately confused and disconnected from the greater plot.

Oh man the tunnel chapters in Exodus from The Long Sun are the best/worst example of Wolfe writing at maximum Wolfe-level. I still have only the barest grasp on what went on down there and I read each section three times at a minimum.

10/10 greatest novel ever written.

Milo and POTUS
Sep 3, 2017

I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?
I could have swore I read somewhere the number of archons there were. I can't remember if it was in the book or online. I thought it might be in one of the appendixes of the first two books but a quick skim produces nothing and it might have been at the start of sword; I haven't yet reached citadel. I'd love to look more online but it's a rare example of something I actually prefer not to spoil and you do have to be careful looking up some of these esoteric references because man there's a lot of spoiler with them

Just Dan Again
Dec 16, 2012

Adventure!

magic cactus posted:

Oh man the tunnel chapters in Exodus from The Long Sun are the best/worst example of Wolfe writing at maximum Wolfe-level. I still have only the barest grasp on what went on down there and I read each section three times at a minimum.

10/10 greatest novel ever written.

"Now I'm going to interrupt your description of a thing that happened off-camera with a different interpretation of a thing that happened on-camera and right as I'm about make a cogent point a thing will happen that ends the chapter, and when we return to this part of the plot a character is no longer where they're supposed to be or several months have passed."

I love Wolfe but there's a reason that many people have written many essays trying to figure out what exactly the hell happens in his books.

MeatwadIsGod
Sep 30, 2004

Foretold by Gyromancy
Please don't remind me of the tunnels. They had almost receded into merciful oblivion in my memory

Milo and POTUS
Sep 3, 2017

I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?
Well, just finished botns. drat good books and certainly the best written sci-fi I've read, if not necessarily the easiest to digest. I'll be thinking about it for a while. What was the emerald bench mentioned in the closing chapters? Not much of a spoiler I don't think. Was in quotation marks too but I don't know the significance of that other than suggesting it likely a metaphor

Sailor Viy
Aug 4, 2013

And when I can swim no longer, if I have not reached Aslan's country, or shot over the edge of the world into some vast cataract, I shall sink with my nose to the sunrise.

I'm making my way through Soldier of the Mist on Audible. Audiobook is not really the best format for Wolfe's writing - there are a lot of places where I wanted to go back and check something but couldn't because I was listening while driving. Oh well. Overall the plot seems a bit easier to understand than Book of the New Sun. The only part that I really don't get is what's going on with Eurycles and Drakaina. My best guess is that Drakaina is the serpent woman who appeared earlier in the book, and she somehow ate Eurycles' identity from the inside out? Is that a reference to some Greek mythical creature?

my bony fealty
Oct 1, 2008

Milo and POTUS posted:

Well, just finished botns. drat good books and certainly the best written sci-fi I've read, if not necessarily the easiest to digest. I'll be thinking about it for a while. What was the emerald bench mentioned in the closing chapters? Not much of a spoiler I don't think. Was in quotation marks too but I don't know the significance of that other than suggesting it likely a metaphor

I think it's just a cute nod to Jack Vance who would write stuff like that a lot. But Wolfe being Wolfe maybe its actually the key that unlocks the book.

felicibusbrevis
Feb 1, 2011

Sailor Viy posted:

I'm making my way through Soldier of the Mist on Audible. Audiobook is not really the best format for Wolfe's writing - there are a lot of places where I wanted to go back and check something but couldn't because I was listening while driving. Oh well. Overall the plot seems a bit easier to understand than Book of the New Sun. The only part that I really don't get is what's going on with Eurycles and Drakaina. My best guess is that Drakaina is the serpent woman who appeared earlier in the book, and she somehow ate Eurycles' identity from the inside out? Is that a reference to some Greek mythical creature?

Kind of. The triple goddess has Latro deliver the snake to eurykles who then yes transforms- she says she was a princess of Colchis (Medea) but she also seems to be like the gorgon creature that feared iron. So the snake introduced to his drink by the triple goddess.

Totally Huge
Mar 10, 2006

Cold brew got me like...

College Slice
I've read through BOTNS twice and Urth once (after the re-read). My first time was around 2010 or so and while I went in blind and missed a ton I loved every sentence. My second read through was probably 5 years ago. In between I read a lot about the books here and other places. I've never read any other Gene Wolfe. My problem is that when I start thinking about him it just makes me want to re-read BOTNS again because it's so good.

So if I want to read more Wolfe what should it be? I've been thinking about The Wizard Knight. Or should I just keep reading the same series every 5-7 years over and over and over?

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012

Gotta get on that long/short sun train

Dimebags Brain
Feb 18, 2013





I'd recommend The Best of Gene Wolfe actually. Collects some of his best short stories like Fifth Head of Cerberus, The Death of Dr. Island, and Seven American Nights.

Totally Huge
Mar 10, 2006

Cold brew got me like...

College Slice
Ooh maybe the short story collection would be good. Thanks

I'd like to dive into the long/short sun series at some point but I've hard a hard time keeping with books lately due to my brain decaying from years of living in a covid hellworld.

Sailor Viy
Aug 4, 2013

And when I can swim no longer, if I have not reached Aslan's country, or shot over the edge of the world into some vast cataract, I shall sink with my nose to the sunrise.

felicibusbrevis posted:

Kind of. The triple goddess has Latro deliver the snake to eurykles who then yes transforms- she says she was a princess of Colchis (Medea) but she also seems to be like the gorgon creature that feared iron. So the snake introduced to his drink by the triple goddess.

Cheers, I almost forgot about the snake in the wine.

Finished Soldier in the Mist now, and lol at me thinking it would have a proper conclusion instead of just ending in the middle of poo poo. I think I'm going to get physical copies of the whole series instead of listening to them. Although the narrator did do a good job of it.

Sailor Viy
Aug 4, 2013

And when I can swim no longer, if I have not reached Aslan's country, or shot over the edge of the world into some vast cataract, I shall sink with my nose to the sunrise.

Totally Huge posted:

I've read through BOTNS twice and Urth once (after the re-read). My first time was around 2010 or so and while I went in blind and missed a ton I loved every sentence. My second read through was probably 5 years ago. In between I read a lot about the books here and other places. I've never read any other Gene Wolfe. My problem is that when I start thinking about him it just makes me want to re-read BOTNS again because it's so good.

So if I want to read more Wolfe what should it be? I've been thinking about The Wizard Knight. Or should I just keep reading the same series every 5-7 years over and over and over?

Peace is very good if you don't mind reading a story that's mostly set in the real world.

I probably think more about Peace than I do about BotNS.

felicibusbrevis
Feb 1, 2011

Sailor Viy posted:

Cheers, I almost forgot about the snake in the wine.

Finished Soldier in the Mist now, and lol at me thinking it would have a proper conclusion instead of just ending in the middle of poo poo. I think I'm going to get physical copies of the whole series instead of listening to them. Although the narrator did do a good job of it.

Spoilers for soldier of the mist.. Latro learns his name and gets reunited with his Roman legion but they are dead. The neurian afflicted by the moon dies in symbolic combat with her while latro’s struggle with the earth goddess continues. So it is the fulfillment of persephone’s promise and the Greeks take Sestos.

andrew smash
Jun 26, 2006

smooth soul
Gotta throw out my pitch for Fifth Head of Cerberus (the whole book, not just the title story). After years of reading and re-reading Wolfe I think it's really the quintessential Wolfe book.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012

The titular book, and VRT are both great, but the second part drives me nuts the way it's written.

Lex Talionis
Feb 6, 2011

Gaius Marius posted:

Gotta get on that long/short sun train
Long Sun and Short Sun are written in a very different way from BotNS, to the point they feel like a separate work. I mention that because intuitively you would not expect a long chain of sequels to be any good. But Long Sun is it's own thing and very good in its own way. And Short Sun is the rare sequel that makes Long Sun better after reading it. And the middle book in particular, In Green's Jungles, is just insanely good. It's so drat good that I don't even care that the last book, Return to the Whorl, kind of, sigh...well...to be honest, it sucks. It's way worse than all the other good Wolfe books people are recommending. But IMO the Short Sun trilogy is still worth it for the first two books.

Tokelau All Star
Feb 23, 2008

THE TAXES! THE FINGER THING MEANS THE TAXES!

I liked Short Sun but I was extremely put off by the stuff with Seawrack. I almost gave up.

my bony fealty
Oct 1, 2008

Tokelau All Star posted:

I liked Short Sun but I was extremely put off by the stuff with Seawrack. I almost gave up.

yeah that poo poo sucks. there's some other lechery in the books about the girls that's pretty uncomfortable. tarnish on an otherwise flawless trilogy.

Nakar
Sep 2, 2002

Ultima Ratio Regum
I'm highly ambivalent toward On Blue's Waters and Return to the Whorl, but In Green's Jungles is one of the best genre works I've ever read. I think it's the best individual book in the Solar Cycle, with maybe Claw or Sword competing with it from New Sun, but New Sun is just better overall. I don't feel too much one way or the other about Long Sun, but Short Sun definitely does make Long Sun better in hindsight.

Peace is incredible, easy #1 Wolfe work if New Sun isn't counted as a single book.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man


I used a Gene Wolf quotation for introducing a concept when teaching Judo tonight

felicibusbrevis
Feb 1, 2011

CommonShore posted:

I used a Gene Wolf quotation for introducing a concept when teaching Judo tonight

Wolfe was a judo instructor for a while.

papa horny michael
Aug 18, 2009

by Pragmatica
Finally made it into claw off the conciliator, after not progressing anywhere in the first book over ten years. The transition to suddenly my companion Jonas is cool.

Lex Talionis
Feb 6, 2011
Speaking of problematic female love interests, does anyone have a theory as to what is going on with Hyacinth in Book of the Long Sun? Specifically Silk's undying-love-at-first-sight thing. Horn of all people says he finds it inexplicable, which suggests Wolfe is doing it "on purpose". My best guess used to be that it was supposed to be some sort of "Christ's love for the Church" analogy, but with Alzabo Soup moving slowly through Long Sun, they made it seem like Silk fell instantly in love with her while she was possessed by Kypris. That's a bit more understandable since she's the goddess of love. So is it a bait and switch: well, I sort of couldn't help falling in love with you while you were someone else, so now being Silk I'm going to be loyal no matter who you really are?

my bony fealty
Oct 1, 2008

Lex Talionis posted:

Speaking of problematic female love interests, does anyone have a theory as to what is going on with Hyacinth in Book of the Long Sun? Specifically Silk's undying-love-at-first-sight thing. Horn of all people says he finds it inexplicable, which suggests Wolfe is doing it "on purpose". My best guess used to be that it was supposed to be some sort of "Christ's love for the Church" analogy, but with Alzabo Soup moving slowly through Long Sun, they made it seem like Silk fell instantly in love with her while she was possessed by Kypris. That's a bit more understandable since she's the goddess of love. So is it a bait and switch: well, I sort of couldn't help falling in love with you while you were someone else, so now being Silk I'm going to be loyal no matter who you really are?

Silk is a clone of Pas/Typhon whose mistress was Kypris so he was genetically programmed to fall in love with her. something like that there's more to it I'm sure.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012

Lex Talionis posted:

Speaking of problematic female love interests, does anyone have a theory as to what is going on with Hyacinth in Book of the Long Sun? Specifically Silk's undying-love-at-first-sight thing. Horn of all people says he finds it inexplicable, which suggests Wolfe is doing it "on purpose". My best guess used to be that it was supposed to be some sort of "Christ's love for the Church" analogy, but with Alzabo Soup moving slowly through Long Sun, they made it seem like Silk fell instantly in love with her while she was possessed by Kypris. That's a bit more understandable since she's the goddess of love. So is it a bait and switch: well, I sort of couldn't help falling in love with you while you were someone else, so now being Silk I'm going to be loyal no matter who you really are?

Alzabo Soup is generally dumb and wrong so keep that in mind, but that could also be part of it. Along with Silks Pas clone thing.

That said it's also not all that crazy to me that he just fell in love with her. I'm guessing everyone here knows at least one person who went totally off the rails after meeting someone they fell in love with.


Anyways. I finally started digging into Borges. Read the Garden of Forking paths, and Funes, his memory. Y'know I'm starting to see why people say he was a inspiration to Wolfe

afflictionwisp
Aug 26, 2003

my bony fealty posted:

Silk is a clone of Pas/Typhon whose mistress was Kypris so he was genetically programmed to fall in love with her. something like that there's more to it I'm sure.

... I haven't read Long Sun in a few years but I have no memory of this. Did I miss something absurdly obvious or is this one of those super cryptic things that Wolfe puts everywhere?

Lex Talionis
Feb 6, 2011

afflictionwisp posted:

... I haven't read Long Sun in a few years but I have no memory of this. Did I miss something absurdly obvious or is this one of those super cryptic things that Wolfe puts everywhere?
I don't think it's ever stated directly but once you are looking for it there's an unusual amount of evidence by Wolfe's standards: the embryo trade, Calde Tussah's interest in a particular embryo, Tussah is a kind of silk, Silk's mother kept a picture of Tussah, Silk is smart, improbably athletic, and a natural leader. That said I think fealty's statement that Silk was "programmed" to love Kypris-as-Hyacinth is much more speculative and I don't really see how it lines up either logically (Kypris is a mistress and there's little reason to think the Typhon we know from BotNS was much for true wuv) or thematically. Whereas if we assume Silk's embryo was intended to be a host body for Pas to ride in down to the colony planet and rule from, that creates a rich irony: what actually happens is Pas is mostly killed and ends up being the shell for Silk's personality to inhabit and rule mainframe.

One more point about Hyacinth: I see Silk as an experiment on Wolfe's part in making a nearly-perfectly-good character (though arguably his near-perfection comes not from Silk the guy who really existed but from Horn's adoring hagiography) and therefore expect all his major quirks to relate back to that. So it's unsatisfying to think he just got brainwashed somehow into loving Kypris/Hyacinth. One possibility, though, is that Wolfe felt Silk's love for Hyacinth is more perfect the more she is unworthy of it, so she's unlikeable and seemingly a poor match for a man of Silk's education. Again there is a religious connection here; Wolfe would have been very familiar with biblical allusions to Jesus as a long-suffering groom who has perfect love for an extremely flawed and unworthy bride (humanity, basically).

Glimpse
Jun 5, 2011


Its the latter, but I feel like it's pretty well supported.

He is a clone of somebody, or at least a body kept in storage for somebody. Who might need a body, if, say, the people of The Whorl disembark to a planet and leave mainframe behind? This body was stolen with intent to raise it and make it Caldé. Why this one? What makes it a better leader than anyone off the street? Why does everyone he meet fall in with Silk? It's not his great ideas.

e: or what they said above

hobbez
Mar 1, 2012

Don't care. Just do not care. We win, you lose. You do though, you seem to care very much

I'm going to go ride my mountain bike, later nerds.
So BOTNS was brought up in the PS5 thread as “the dark souls of books” and I was IMMEDIATELY intrigued. after reading a bit about it online I’ve ordered the first half and I’m excited to dig in on Wednesday. I’ve heard it’s a bit obtuse and difficult but I usually skew towards weighty tomes by the likes of Joyce or Pynchon so I think I’ll be able to handle it alright

Should be fun! Will post thoughts here.

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Osmosisch
Sep 9, 2007

I shall make everyone look like me! Then when they trick each other, they will say "oh that Coyote, he is the smartest one, he can even trick the great Coyote."



Grimey Drawer
Enjoy the ride! Keep us posted :allears:

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