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ieatsoap6
Nov 4, 2009

College Slice

Malacept posted:

I hope you guys don't mind if I sneak in a wine making question: I'm just about to start my fourth kit batch of wine and I want to step up the professionalism (and hopefully the quality) up a notch. My kit says that the yeast should not be added to the wine juice unless the juice is between 72-75°F. My problem is that my basement is holding around 80°F and I have no A/C down there. Is it ok to add yeast with a higher temp? I can see how that would speed up the fermentation, but is that a bad thing? I definitely wouldn't add the yeast if it was colder than 72°F.

Great thread, by the way. I haven't made it through all 400 pages, but I'm working on it. I've been convinced to try out beer brewing after this batch of wine.

Wine yeast probably don't behave much differently from beer yeast, so all that would happen is that they might produce some off flavors with a higher temperature. That said, those may go away with aging by the time you drink it. You could try putting your fermenter in a bucket of water and throwing some ice in every once in a while to keep the temperature a bit lower. I find that freezing old water bottles works great because the ice in them lasts longer than cubes.

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Turds in magma
Sep 17, 2007
can i get a transform out of here?
I'm brewing an "imperial pilsner" of sorts and i've got a couple of questions:
1) OG was 1.077. it's been a week at 54 f, using wyeast czech pils 2278, and now it's down to 1.040. Too slow?
2) What should my carbonation volume be? It should end up around 8% ABV, and around 75 IBUs. Bohemian pilsners seem to have a carbonation level of around 2.3, but since this is a much bigger beer do i want Duvel-levels of carb?

LaserWash
Jun 28, 2006
Goon brewers,

I lie 80 miles from Austin and the LHS is not a thing that exists in or around College Station, TX.

I need some DME to make a starter. What do I do if I have no DME and don't want to pay $7 for a bag of $3 DME?

Is there another place I should check, grocery stores, Asian stores, etc.?

Do I just need to suck it up?

Shbobdb
Dec 16, 2010

by Reene
Molasses plus yeast nutrient. That is how Red Star grows their yeast.

Edit: Though you should wash the starter because, well, molasses. Unless that is what you want.

NEED TOILET PAPER
Mar 22, 2013

by XyloJW
Walked into my homebrew store to buy some priming sugar and other equipment, which I calculated would set me bacl about $15-$20. I walked out having spent over $30 :homebrew:

Today I'll probably field-test my new hydrometer by checking the gravity for my current batch that's been fermenting for about a week and a half. If it's near what the recipe says, then it's bottling time. Which brings me to the question: does the amount of priming sugar vary at all assuming the batch sizes are all the same? So far I've been using 3/4 cup sugar for 5 gallons (or 3/8 cup for approximately 2.5 gallons) and haven't had any problems yet, mainly because my homebrews are all gone within a month of bottling.

Shbobdb
Dec 16, 2010

by Reene
3/4ths cups is fine for bottles. When I bottled, I usually used 2/3rds as my "default". I'd go down to 1/2 cup for stouts or other British beers that I wanted to be less "gassy" and up to 3/4ths for Weizens and other beers I wanted to be a little more bubbly. Sometimes higher than that, but I usually didn't mess with it too much.

When I started bottling, I always used the 3/4ths. I found it was too bubbly for most of the beers I was brewing (I brew a lot of alts) so I toned it down a pinch.

fullroundaction
Apr 20, 2007

Drink beer every day

Scythe posted:

It definitely stalled out for me, and I was running things at around 80. I ended up adding some second-generation 1214 to get through the last 20 points of my latest saison after 3724 sat at the same gravity for a couple of weeks.

I just pitched half a mason jar of it into a saison I brewed 4 hours ago and it's already coming through the blowoff tube (none of that is hyperbole).

I guess I shouldn't have said I don't believe it's possible, it's just such a foreign concept to me (based on my many experiences with this particular yeast).

Here's my go at a :siren:PUMPKIN:siren: saison. I loved New Belgium's addition of cranberry in Pumpkick so I decided to rip it off a bit and use some hibiscus flowers to add a nice red color and provide a cranberry-like tartness without being too bitter. Hydrometer sample tasted amazing :dance:

http://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/pumpkin-saison-10

NEED TOILET PAPER posted:

I walked out having spent over $30 :homebrew:

Don't feel too bad. I spent so much money yesterday they gave me a free t-shirt :negative:

fullroundaction fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Sep 2, 2013

Jo3sh
Oct 19, 2002

Like all girls I love unicorns!

NEED TOILET PAPER posted:

Walked into my homebrew store to buy some priming sugar and other equipment, which I calculated would set me bacl about $15-$20. I walked out having spent over $30 :homebrew:

Did you at least get extra stuff, or were they just feeling rapey for the holiday weekend?

NEED TOILET PAPER
Mar 22, 2013

by XyloJW

Jo3sh posted:

Did you at least get extra stuff, or were they just feeling rapey for the holiday weekend?

Yeah don't worry, they didn't raise the prices any, it's just that I popped in to get some priming sugar, grains for kvass, and a hydrometer and realized, "Hey, wouldn't it be convenient to get a beer thief for easier use of the hydrometer? And come to think of it, isn't the spout on your auto-siphon broken and causing a lot of bubbles to leak into anything passing through?"

So yeah, I got sucked into the vortex of cool homebrewing things and ended up spending about double what I originally intended :negative:

fullroundaction posted:

Don't feel too bad. I spent so much money yesterday they gave me a free t-shirt :negative:

I'm not rich enough to buy enough crap to get a free t-shirt:smith: Otherwise, I'd never have to worry about buying new clothes ever again.

edit: welp, hydrometer's hosed, so I'm just going to go ahead and bottle anyways, since I figure a week and a half since the yeast was pitched is enough time for the fermentation to work its magic. And anyways, it'll all be gone in less than three weeks, so I figure the beer won't be around long enough to form any bottle bombs...right? :ohdear:

NEED TOILET PAPER fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Sep 2, 2013

Syrinxx
Mar 28, 2002

Death is whimsical today

Man, Windsor doesn't floc for poo poo. I love the flavors it produced but I don't want the last third of every loving beer I made to be a muddy mess :mad:

Jo3sh
Oct 19, 2002

Like all girls I love unicorns!

NEED TOILET PAPER posted:

So yeah, I got sucked into the vortex of cool homebrewing things and ended up spending about double what I originally intended :negative:

Well, that's what hobbies are for. Just have another pint and repeat after me - "I save SO much money on beer now that I brew my own..."

NEED TOILET PAPER
Mar 22, 2013

by XyloJW

Jo3sh posted:

Well, that's what hobbies are for. Just have another pint and repeat after me - "I save SO much money on beer now that I brew my own..."

I just finished bottling, and ended up filling about four 12-oz bottles the wrong amount (ie: too much/little headspace) so I've put them in the fridge to have at a later date (read: later tonight). And I still have about 20 carbonating. All for the price (ingredients-wise) of about $30. This might just be the most cost-effective hobby I've ever heard of.

On the topic of headspace, I usually try to go for about an inch and a half. Does this sound about right? What happens if I leave too much space? Too little?

edit:

Midorka posted:

Oh boy, you are wrong on so many levels. Just wait until you want a stir plate, then temperature control, then a three tier system, then etc.

:negative:

NEED TOILET PAPER fucked around with this message at 07:18 on Sep 2, 2013

Midorka
Jun 10, 2011

I have a pretty fucking good palate, passed BJCP and level 2 cicerone which is more than half of you dudes can say, so I don't give a hoot anymore about this toxic community.

NEED TOILET PAPER posted:

I just finished bottling, and ended up filling about four 12-oz bottles the wrong amount (ie: too much/little headspace) so I've put them in the fridge to have at a later date (read: later tonight). And I still have about 20 carbonating. All for the price (ingredients-wise) of about $30. This might just be the most cost-effective hobby I've ever heard of.

On the topic of headspace, I usually try to go for about an inch and a half. Does this sound about right? What happens if I leave too much space? Too little?

Oh boy, you are wrong on so many levels. Just wait until you want a stir plate, then temperature control, then a three tier system, then etc.

wattershed
Dec 27, 2002

Radio got his free iPod, did you get yours???

Midorka posted:

Oh boy, you are wrong on so many levels. Just wait until you want a stir plate, then temperature control, then a three tier system, then etc.

If I recall correctly he's a BIAB guy so if he wants to remain as such he doesn't have to worry about the 3-tier system.

But, the rest, absolutely, and wait until you realize bottling is a pain in the dick compared to kegging and, yeah, just light your money on fire. It'll save you time and effort.

Midorka
Jun 10, 2011

I have a pretty fucking good palate, passed BJCP and level 2 cicerone which is more than half of you dudes can say, so I don't give a hoot anymore about this toxic community.

wattershed posted:

If I recall correctly he's a BIAB guy so if he wants to remain as such he doesn't have to worry about the 3-tier system.

But, the rest, absolutely, and wait until you realize bottling is a pain in the dick compared to kegging and, yeah, just light your money on fire. It'll save you time and effort.

BIAB eventually becomes all-grain, at least from what I've seen. I think that people generally have the idea that brewing is a hobby that is cheap and eventually saves money. That's somewhat true if you're okay with getting potentially inconsistent beer. Then there comes the gadgets...one at a time. I've learned this the hard way.

Josh Wow
Feb 28, 2005

We need more beer up here!

NEED TOILET PAPER posted:

On the topic of headspace, I usually try to go for about an inch and a half. Does this sound about right? What happens if I leave too much space? Too little?

Fill the bottle to the top and pull out the bottling wand, that's the correct amount of headspace. With bottle conditioning much/too little headspace doesn't really matter unless you go to the extremes. Too little headspace can theoretically take longer to carbonate since there's less oxygen in the bottle for the yeast to use. If you have a lot of headspace once the bottles are fully carbed you'll notice a lot more CO2 being released when you open them and this can cause foaming and the cap to pop off. The actual carbonation level isn't affected but there's just more CO2 in the headspace of the bottle.

Roundboy
Oct 21, 2008
I thought by this point the yeast is eating sugar,not o2?

And to be proper,you bare supposed to fill the head with co2 to leave as little beet touching o2 as possible. Also o2 absorbing caps.

Josh Wow
Feb 28, 2005

We need more beer up here!
The yeast do eat the priming sugar to carbonate but they use oxygen as well. You don't need to flush the headspace with CO2 when bottle conditioning, the yeast will use up all the oxygen in the headspace.

Bass Concert Hall
May 9, 2005

by Nyc_Tattoo

bengy81 posted:

So 3724...

I brewed this saison kit from Austin homebrew and added a pound of extra pale DME and a pound of turbinado (needed to use them both before they got gross). I ended up with a SG between 1.09 and 1.1. Anyhow, its been a week fermenting and it is at about 1.02. I have been trying to keep it as close to 80 as possible, but I don't think it has been higher than 78 honestly. Is it going to stall out if I don't hit 80, or is it just going to take a while to finish fermenting?

Is the high gravity going to cause issues as well?
The sample was fantastic though!

I had this happen and the LHS advised me to rack to secondary, collect some yeast cake in a jar, shake to aerate and then repitch. That sounded like a shitload of work so I just shook the primary a little and put it outside in the 85F heat for a couple hours, at which point it started up again.

Cpt.Wacky
Apr 17, 2005

Josh Wow posted:

Fill the bottle to the top and pull out the bottling wand, that's the correct amount of headspace.

This is how I do it as well. You can gently release pressure on the spring-loaded tip of the wand to get a slower flow as you get near the top of the bottle so as to not overflow the top.

Tweek
Feb 1, 2005

I have more disposable income than you.

Midorka posted:

Oh boy, you are wrong on so many levels. Just wait until you want a stir plate, then temperature control, then a three tier system, then etc.

Shut up and let the goon lie to themself.

Brewing functions on magic and self-deceit.

Besides, brewing is a cheaper hobby than just lighting money on fire, so there's that.

I've saved tons since I switched.

Jo3sh
Oct 19, 2002

Like all girls I love unicorns!

NEED TOILET PAPER posted:

This might just be the most cost-effective hobby I've ever heard of.

I tell people who ask that my cost in ingredients and fuel is something like 40 to 50 cents per 12 ounce glass. And that's quite honestly true, given the bulk grain and hops buys I make, etc., etc. But it doesn't really take into account the several thousand dollars worth of gear I have lying around the place, the cost of running two beer fridges, the dozen kegs and three stainless-steel faucets, all the tools I bought to build the equipment, and so on.

All in all, I've been doing this a long time, so all of that stuff has had some time to pay for itself, but I'm not so sure I'm making money on the deal. Not that I'm bitching - it's still the best hobby ever after all these years, and I've learned more about beer than I ever thought possible and I have better beer available in my house than many good bars.

Brewing is for sure way more cost-effective than loads of other hobbies. Let's see here... guitars cost a freaking arm and a leg. Cars nearly always lose lots of money. Shooting is just ridiculous. Athletics of any kind I just don't understand, but at least some forms can be done cheaply, such as running. But cycling starts to get a little wallet-thirsty. Don't even mention boats and "frugal" in the same sentence.

Tweek posted:

Besides, brewing is a cheaper hobby than just lighting money on fire, so there's that.

My other hobby, high-power rocketry, is almost literally lighting money on fire. But god drat is it fun.


NEED TOILET PAPER posted:

On the topic of headspace, I usually try to go for about an inch and a half. Does this sound about right? What happens if I leave too much space? Too little?

When I bottled, I would fill until the beer just came up to the lip of the bottle. When the bottling wand was removed from the bottle, it left a perfect headspace.

Jo3sh fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Sep 2, 2013

Midorka
Jun 10, 2011

I have a pretty fucking good palate, passed BJCP and level 2 cicerone which is more than half of you dudes can say, so I don't give a hoot anymore about this toxic community.
Speaking of money and brewing, I got my ST1000, but it didn't come with anything but the probe and the control itself. It doesn't come with the cables I need to connect it up? What do I get for that?

Daedalus Esquire
Mar 30, 2008

Jo3sh posted:



My other hobby, high-power rocketry, is almost literally lighting money on fire. But god drat is it fun.



Sorry, off the beer topic, but come join us: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3550902


On topic, I just ordered a 5-way manifold and new gas lines, so I'll finally get my kegerator running again, and will only need 1 gas tank this time instead of two gas tanks and a salvaged 3-way and 2 way manifold that we had been running before the old gas lines got leaky and started cracking. I probably have 40 gallons of beer that's been sitting in kegs for a few months, and I've also got 5 gallons of cider, and 15 more gallons of beer in fermenters.

illcendiary
Dec 4, 2005

Damn, this is good coffee.

Midorka posted:

Speaking of money and brewing, I got my ST1000, but it didn't come with anything but the probe and the control itself. It doesn't come with the cables I need to connect it up? What do I get for that?

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/ebay-fish-tank-controller-build-using-wal-mart-parts-261506/

Follow those instructions and you should be good, I know because I just used them about a week ago. My fermentation chamber is up and running, and works perfectly. Just make sure you submerge the temperature probe in water or something so that the reading isn't always fluctuating wildly.

illcendiary fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Sep 2, 2013

LaserWash
Jun 28, 2006
Assuming that I'm using a stir plate, is a 1 liter flask too small for creating a crisp, clean, tasting 1.050 OG lager (Munich Helles) starter or just right?

Is a 1" stir bar going to work in something this size or should I have ordered something larger? That part has been bought and paid for on Amazon.

I'm planning my buying spree on AHS today and need to know if I should just go big (2L or larger).

Also, my wife and I are having labor day by ourselves and planning on gorging on fajitas, chips, salsa, jalapeños, etc. We're trying our first Saison (du Pont) this evening. We want to know what all the fuss is about.

LaserWash
Jun 28, 2006

Midorka posted:

Speaking of money and brewing, I got my ST1000, but it didn't come with anything but the probe and the control itself. It doesn't come with the cables I need to connect it up? What do I get for that?

I used this diagram. I didn't need a heating element because... well, I live in Texas and it's already f'in hot here 11 months of the year.



Also, I learned that keeping a bucket or carboy full of water in the freezer has a definite impact on keeping the chamber cool, causing fewer cycles.

fullroundaction
Apr 20, 2007

Drink beer every day
We make at least 10 gallons of pale ale/IPA a month. That's ~22lbs of grain at ~55c a pound and ~12oz of hops at ~$1 an ounce. Round up a bit for water and propane and let's call it $30 for 4 cases of really good, fresh pale ale made to my personally specifications.

The cheapest pale ale I can think of that's actually worth drinking would be something like Ranger, and around me that's going to be ~$9 a six pack after taxes, or $144 for the same amount I just brewed.

The savings on that ONE BATCH ALONE is enough to pay for 4 better bottles, shipped (just to pick a random example). So yeah the hobby is definitely a money saver if you drink like a fish and brew fairly often.

E: if I'm not using prices from my homebrew club's bulk grain buy, the price for the batch goes up to like ~45$ tops.

fullroundaction fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Sep 2, 2013

crazyfish
Sep 19, 2002

fullroundaction posted:

We make at least 10 gallons of pale ale/IPA a month. That's ~22lbs of grain at ~55c a pound and ~12oz of hops at ~$1 an ounce. Round up a bit for water and propane and let's call it $30 for 4 cases of really good, fresh pale ale made to my personally specifications.

The cheapest pale ale I can think of that's actually worth drinking would be something like Ranger, and around me that's going to be ~$9 a six pack after taxes, or $144 for the same amount I just brewed.

The savings on that ONE BATCH ALONE is enough to pay for 4 better bottles, shipped (just to pick a random example). So yeah the hobby is definitely a money saver if you drink like a fish and brew fairly often.

Especially if you brew big, fancypants beers. I can turn around 5 gallons of an awesome Belgian-style quad for somewhere around what it would cost me for about 9-10 12oz bottles from an actual Belgian brewery. And that is pretty much the single most expensive (ingredients-wise) beer that I brew.

edit: If you buy your malt and hops in bulk and are smart about reusing yeast, you could probably make a solid drinkable cream ale or similar for dirt cheap, like $10/5 gal.

fullroundaction
Apr 20, 2007

Drink beer every day

crazyfish posted:

Especially if you brew big, fancypants beers. I can turn around 5 gallons of an awesome Belgian-style quad for somewhere around what it would cost me for about 9-10 12oz bottles from an actual Belgian brewery. And that is pretty much the single most expensive (ingredients-wise) beer that I brew.

edit: If you buy your malt and hops in bulk and are smart about reusing yeast, you could probably make a solid drinkable cream ale or similar for dirt cheap, like $10/5 gal.

Yeah, and let's not forget about sours. My last batch of Flanders red is basically a Duchesse clone (except not as sweet, which I like better) and that cost about 10% of what it would have retailed for.

That probably goes for any sour you make really.

And good god yes, yeast recycling is key of you don't hate your wallet.

ieatsoap6
Nov 4, 2009

College Slice
As a relative newbie and nerd, I've been keeping track of expenses as best I can. After ~6 batches of beer and a couple cider/mead/whatever, with all the equipment I'm at right around $8.50/6 pack. And it's not like the money is wasted because I still get something drinkable out of it, rather than spending the money and that being that. I fully agree that, as far as hobbies go, this is a pretty cost effective one.

I expect my costs to go down a bit as I start doing more and more with grains (did my first BIAB Saturday :woop:).

Roundboy
Oct 21, 2008
Grains are cheap,its only when you start adding in special additions of spices or flavors that your per case cost adds up.

I don't count equipment as much since I'll reuse that and its included in a per batch cost.. but this pumpkin beer is probably costing $30/case when its said and done,still pretty cheap for 8%+ beer

crazyfish
Sep 19, 2002

Roundboy posted:

Grains are cheap,its only when you start adding in special additions of spices or flavors that your per case cost adds up.

That, or hops in non-bulk when you're making IPAs/etc. That $2+/oz for Citra really adds up when you throw over a half pound into a Zombie Dust clone, for example.

One more thing I'm thinking of: As homebrewers, price-wise, we're not just competing with $10 6-packs anymore. A whole rash of small new breweries (at least in Chicago) are bringing out the $8-$9 bomber of IPA. When you compare home brewing to buying one of those commercially, you really come out ahead - it's hard not to compete against a $24 6-pack.

crazyfish fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Sep 2, 2013

Midorka
Jun 10, 2011

I have a pretty fucking good palate, passed BJCP and level 2 cicerone which is more than half of you dudes can say, so I don't give a hoot anymore about this toxic community.

illcendiary posted:

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/ebay-fish-tank-controller-build-using-wal-mart-parts-261506/

Follow those instructions and you should be good, I know because I just used them about a week ago. My fermentation chamber is up and running, and works perfectly. Just make sure you submerge the temperature probe in water or something so that the reading isn't always fluctuating wildly.

Thanks, just what I needed!

LaserWash
Jun 28, 2006
Sorry, hate to be pushy, but I know the experts are here today and I'm ready to order. :black101:

Is a 1L flask big enough for a Munich Helles Style starter (with stir plate) or do I need to go bigger (2L or 3L)? I'm planning on doing a smack pack unless otherwise advised.

Josh Wow
Feb 28, 2005

We need more beer up here!

LaserWash posted:

Sorry, hate to be pushy, but I know the experts are here today and I'm ready to order. :black101:

Is a 1L flask big enough for a Munich Helles Style starter (with stir plate) or do I need to go bigger (2L or 3L)? I'm planning on doing a smack pack unless otherwise advised.

2 or 3L is what you wanna shoot for, the bigger the better.

Turds in magma
Sep 17, 2007
can i get a transform out of here?

Turds in magma posted:

I'm brewing an "imperial pilsner" of sorts and i've got a couple of questions:
1) OG was 1.077. it's been a week at 54 f, using wyeast czech pils 2278, and now it's down to 1.040. Too slow?
2) What should my carbonation volume be? It should end up around 8% ABV, and around 75 IBUs. Bohemian pilsners seem to have a carbonation level of around 2.3, but since this is a much bigger beer do i want Duvel-levels of carb?
Anyone have any thoughts?

Roundboy
Oct 21, 2008

Turds in magma posted:

Anyone have any thoughts?

the difference in 2.3 vs a duvel of 3.0ish levels is .5 cup of table sugar vs 3/4 cup in 5 gal (assuming 70 degree temp)

northern brewer has a calulator: http://www.northernbrewer.com/priming-sugar-calculator/
\which lets you pick by style type and sugar type. split the difference and add a heaping 1/2 cup (or the entire 5oz package of priming sugar that you get with kits)

Although ive used this and found it to give me slightly less co2 then i want, unless i am just not using the correct style

crazyfish posted:

That, or hops in non-bulk when you're making IPAs/etc. That $2+/oz for Citra really adds up when you throw over a half pound into a Zombie Dust clone, for example.

One more thing I'm thinking of: As homebrewers, price-wise, we're not just competing with $10 6-packs anymore. A whole rash of small new breweries (at least in Chicago) are bringing out the $8-$9 bomber of IPA. When you compare home brewing to buying one of those commercially, you really come out ahead - it's hard not to compete against a $24 6-pack.

True. I am coming in WAY lower with my pumpkin clone then $8.50/bomber, and i didnt have to put too much work into it in a 5 gal all grain. I refuse to keep spreadsheets on equipment costs, because like guns, i find i spend WAY to much all added up

Although most of my stuff is borrowed, i only actually own a small portion of it.

Roundboy fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Sep 2, 2013

CapnBry
Jul 15, 2002

I got this goin'
Grimey Drawer

LaserWash posted:

Is a 1L flask big enough for a Munich Helles Style starter (with stir plate) or do I need to go bigger (2L or 3L)? I'm planning on doing a smack pack unless otherwise advised.
For a 5.5 gallons of 1.050 OG beerm you're going to want a minimum of 193 billion yeasties. A smack pack is a maximum of 100 billion, leaving your stater to create 93 billion cells.

The Ballin' (Balling) Rule of Thumb is 10 million cells per mL per degree Plato. 1L of 1.036 starter = 1000mL * 9 plato * 10 million = 90 billion, or just shy.

Even if 1L was enough, yeast starters form krausen even on a stirplate and it will overflow if you fill it all the way to the 1L line. Go for 2L for sure and make 1.5L starters.

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LaserWash
Jun 28, 2006

CapnBry posted:


Even if 1L was enough, yeast starters form krausen even on a stirplate and it will overflow if you fill it all the way to the 1L line. Go for 2L for sure and make 1.5L starters.

So larger than 1L it is!

Could I/Should I use something like a 1 Gallon glass jug to make a starter in instead? Would a stir plate/stir bar work in something like that?

AHS has some jugs going for $5, rather than the $30 for a 3L. I try to think ahead and would like to get something "big" that would work from here on out.

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