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got off on a technicality
Feb 7, 2007

oh dear


Overwined posted:

Or you could put them back into your wine cooler and do what all the cool kids are doing these days -- drink gallons or pet-nat while wearing flip flops and gaudy-colored Ray Bans.

I had no idea what pet nat was until your post but residual sugar + CO2 + 8% alcohol sounds amazing so I just bought some Bugey Cerdon to celebrate

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pork never goes bad
May 16, 2008

gin&milk!!!


Admirable Gusto posted:

I had no idea what pet nat was until your post but residual sugar + CO2 + 8% alcohol sounds amazing so I just bought some Bugey Cerdon to celebrate

That is going to be loving delicious. Today I plan to drink a 40oz of Muscadet.

Kasumeat
Nov 18, 2004


Kasumeat posted:

Speaking of corks, despite my anti-cork stance, I gotta give credit where it's due: the industry is cleaning up their act. There is a marked difference between the TCA rates for recent vintages compared older ones. The nineties and noughties are still a minefield, but I've opened hundreds of 2013-and-2014s in a row without a single corked bottle. A premoxed 2008 Grand Cru Chablis in a row to make up for it, but hey, it's a start.

This was the universe's cue to line up 7 young corked bottles for me to open this week, plus some Silver Oak 2007 whose cork had liquefied for some reason :S


pork never goes bad posted:

That is going to be loving delicious. Today I plan to drink a 40oz of Muscadet.

I thought this was a joke but decided to check, and . . . I've never seen those in our market, but that sounds like a trend that'll be outrageously popular.

idiotsavant
Jun 4, 2000


Admirable Gusto posted:

I had no idea what pet nat was until your post but residual sugar + CO2 + 8% alcohol sounds amazing so I just bought some Bugey Cerdon to celebrate

more like 7. I think most of that stuff is long gone, but holy poo poo was it good. And that label...

beefnchedda
Aug 16, 2004


Kasumeat posted:




I thought this was a joke but decided to check, and . . . I've never seen those in our market, but that sounds like a trend that'll be outrageously popular.

Now I want order a few.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

500 CIGARETTES!


Muscadet is basically the awesome, light food-friendly white wine that everyone tries to convince me Pinot Grigio can be. As far as I can tell, Pinot Grigio, then, is just wine for people who don't like wine.

The 40oz. is novel, I have to admit. I like new packaging formats -- I've even seen wine in single-serve cans! Now I'm curious whether there are any wineries that produce screw-top magnums or double-magnums. I don't know I've ever seen one, but they must exist, right?

EDIT: While I'm here, I might as well ask: I picked up a "methode ancestrale" sparkling wine from a local wine shop. From what I hear, this means that the sparklingness comes from being bottled during the primary fermentation, instead of from a secondary fermentation like traditional-method wines. What differences should I expect as I'm drinking it?

PT6A fucked around with this message at Sep 21, 2016 around 13:30

Kasumeat
Nov 18, 2004


Pinot Grigio is indeed usually made to be as characterless as possible. Most of it nowadays comes from the poorest sites on the plains of Veneto which are just not suited to quality winegrowing. And Pinot Grigio is a bad grape: Low acid, high alcohol, bitter, and not very interesting aromatically IMO. I'm not sure why it was favoured over its cousins Blanc & Auxerrois who are both more aromatic and higher in acid. I guess it's pink which is a prettier colour? If you're making skin-contact whites I guess it has some merit, but the vast majority are white. The best quality Pinot Gris comes from Alsace and don't get me wrong, they're good wines. They somewhat successfully balance its flaws by leaving RS and giving it some aromatic character from botrytis, but it's hard to drink Alsace PG and not wish it was either Riesling or Gewurz.

Wines like Hunter Valley Semillon are proof you can make great wine anywhere as long as you don't use a garbage grape. But Pinot Gris/gio is a garbage grape.

Edit: Methode Ancestral wines are sparkling—less so than Traditional Method, typically moreso than Moscato D'Asti—and off-dry-to-sweet. They're usually fruity, easy-drinking and meant for early consumption.

Kasumeat fucked around with this message at Sep 21, 2016 around 18:15

pork never goes bad
May 16, 2008

gin&milk!!!


That PUR was sooo good. Ordinaire have a few good off-dry pet-nats now that I sneak tastes from my mates. I find myself getting a mild allergic reaction to them often so I'm mostly sticking to reds now.

Methode Ancestrale basically means pet-nat - you can find them ranging from bone dry to terribly sweet these days, with all kinds of level of bubbliness and with a wide range of aromatic/flavor profiles. Though definitely agree with the final point - typically fruity, easy-drinking, and meant for early consumption.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

500 CIGARETTES!


Kasumeat posted:

Edit: Methode Ancestral wines are sparkling—less so than Traditional Method, typically moreso than Moscato D'Asti—and off-dry-to-sweet. They're usually fruity, easy-drinking and meant for early consumption.

Interesting. This one -- Domaine Vincent Carême l'Ancestrale -- is noted as being just a hair sweeter than fully dry on the bottle (they show a 1-5 scale, the arrow points at 1.2 maybe?). It's from Vouvray which is what initially piqued my interest, but one can hardly make judgements about sweetness based on that. I'm very eager to try it now -- perhaps I'll enjoy it on the weekend. I'm certainly not holding out for cellaring or waiting for a special occasion.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

500 CIGARETTES!


Drinking it now. Definitely quite dry, but quite fruity as well -- typical chenin flavours like apple, pear, a little bit of banana. Similar level of sparklingness to traditional method wines, I'd say, but I'm not tasting side by side. The yeastiness is different in character from a traditional method wine -- it seems less like brioche and more like a yeast roll, if that makes any sense. It's also, notably, not disgorged, so there's bits of the lees floating around. I actually kind of like this, but I imagine it would be a turnoff to some people.

All in all, very nice. I don't think I'd seek it out especially, but I wouldn't avoid it either, all other things being equal. I'd be curious to try a traditional method wine from the same grapes, side by side, in order to compare them.

Nephzinho
Jan 24, 2008



I've been expanding my taste in wine this past year as my beer hangovers have gotten much worse + I no longer have the space to brew beer at home + the craft beer place is no longer around the corner. Trying to explore things under $20 though am not opposed to going above. Right now the favorites have been Josh Cabernet, Alamos Malbec, and Copain Syrah. Kind of just picking up random things from conversations here and there, but those are the 3 I've started to actually keep in stock. I haven't really found any whites that I enjoyed enough to buy again, can't even remember what I've gotten. Anyone have some go to recommendations?

tl;dr Help an aging beer snob become a better wine snob.

Nephzinho fucked around with this message at Sep 25, 2016 around 21:15

got off on a technicality
Feb 7, 2007

oh dear


Nephzinho posted:

tl;dr Help an aging beer snob become a better wine snob.
See pet nat discussion above. It's white/rose but low alcohol, fizzy and trendy and happy

For reds there's lots of wine being made with Rhone varietals (Grenache/Syrah/Mourvedre) that might fit the bill. Both Bonny Doon (Le Cigare Volant - highly tongue in cheek) and J Lohr are larger producers that might be worth trying

Subjunctive
Sep 12, 2006

careful now


Cybernetic Crumb

It doesn't look like the LCBO carries any pet-nat, hopefully that'll change in the future.

Kasumeat
Nov 18, 2004


The LCBO is literally 20 years behind the rest of the wine world at any given time, so be on the lookout for them in 2035. Also the whole pet-net trend is pretty much exclusive to the US. It's driven almost entirely by California winemakers who wanted to make refreshing and low-alcohol wines which is difficult to do with conventional winemaking in almost all of California. In Ontario (and most of the Old World) we have no shortage of refreshing, low-alcohol wines so the trend is nonexistent, even among winemakers and somms.

That said, be on the lookout for the next vintage of this, it's a great example but sells out extremely quickly: http://www.hinterlandwine.com/produ...ing-in-november

pork never goes bad
May 16, 2008

gin&milk!!!


I think that the pet nat thing started with the coolio natural wine kids in France, for what it's worth. You can find tons from the Loire especially.

Subjunctive
Sep 12, 2006

careful now


Cybernetic Crumb

Kasumeat posted:

That said, be on the lookout for the next vintage of this, it's a great example but sells out extremely quickly: http://www.hinterlandwine.com/produ...ing-in-november

Subscribed to their newsletter!

Kasumeat
Nov 18, 2004


pork never goes bad posted:

I think that the pet nat thing started with the coolio natural wine kids in France, for what it's worth. You can find tons from the Loire especially.

True, although I still think it's California that's really made it a staple in the American wine zeitgeist.

patonthebach
Aug 22, 2016

by R. Guyovich


Kasumeat posted:

The LCBO is literally 20 years behind the rest of the wine world at any given time, so be on the lookout for them in 2035. Also the whole pet-net trend is pretty much exclusive to the US. It's driven almost entirely by California winemakers who wanted to make refreshing and low-alcohol wines which is difficult to do with conventional winemaking in almost all of California. In Ontario (and most of the Old World) we have no shortage of refreshing, low-alcohol wines so the trend is nonexistent, even among winemakers and somms.

That said, be on the lookout for the next vintage of this, it's a great example but sells out extremely quickly: http://www.hinterlandwine.com/produ...ing-in-november

Yeah the LCBO is terrible in both pricing and selection.

For an interesting Champagne alternative. I'd try the Angels Gate Archangel Sparking Chardonnay. Its under 20 Cdn and pretty fantastic.

And I believe there were a few NOTL wineries that were doing bottle fermenting some of their whites.

pork never goes bad
May 16, 2008

gin&milk!!!


Kasumeat posted:

True, although I still think it's California that's really made it a staple in the American wine zeitgeist.

I guess drinking mostly natty wine in CA, and drinking pet nat long before Cali producers were making much, I may have a warped appreciation of trends. 00 and all that.

Comb Your Beard
Sep 28, 2007

Chillin' like a villian.

Finally got my hands on something resembling a Pet Nat. Limoux Méthode Ancestrale from the Languedoc region. 7% alcohol.

One of the most disappointing things I've drunk in a long time. It tasted like slightly sweet hard cider. Pretty much having no characteristics I would seek out in a sparkling wine.

Should I give the category another shot? I'm gonna stick to trying various Crémants I think. I was on vacation in Seattle at an independent grocery store so I had a more esoteric selection at the time that I bought it.

pork never goes bad
May 16, 2008

gin&milk!!!


Comb Your Beard posted:

Finally got my hands on something resembling a Pet Nat. Limoux Méthode Ancestrale from the Languedoc region. 7% alcohol.

One of the most disappointing things I've drunk in a long time. It tasted like slightly sweet hard cider. Pretty much having no characteristics I would seek out in a sparkling wine.

Should I give the category another shot? I'm gonna stick to trying various Crémants I think. I was on vacation in Seattle at an independent grocery store so I had a more esoteric selection at the time that I bought it.

I think if you're putting it in the same category as typical sparkling wines then you're kind of doing it wrong - you don't have to like it, of course, but it definitely doesn't fill the same niche that champagne does for most.

Drink a quantity of it, quickly, on a hot day. Or drink it with a group of friends in tumblers. Or think of it as joyous rather than serious. But the category may just not be for you.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

500 CIGARETTES!


Kasumeat posted:

The LCBO is literally 20 years behind the rest of the wine world at any given time, so be on the lookout for them in 2035.

See? This is how I've felt about every provincially-run liquor store I've ever dealt with, but for some reason the folks in the CanPol thread still insist that the LCBO isn't terrible and privatization of liquor is not a good idea. I don't get it. A lot of the private stores and importers in Alberta are doing a fantastic job, and I especially like the level of specialization they can pursue compare to a one-size-fits-all liquor monopoly.

[/Canadian derail]

Kasumeat
Nov 18, 2004


There are definite benefits and drawbacks. A private system will unquestionably increase consumer costs but selection would increase DRAMATICALLY. The LCBO is particularly horrible about selection. They focus on having five thousand different $17 Malbecs and NZ Sauvignon Blancs on shelves at all times, while anything slightly obscure or not a current release is literally just not available. The SAQ is an example of a liquor monopoly that at the very least offers good selection. The biggest issue though is that restaurants are forced to pay full retail for non-Ontario wines, which is why a 300-400% markup on your BTG glass wines and 200-300% on bottles is standard (on top of some of the highest booze prices in the world) in downtown Toronto but would be considered criminal in most cities.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

500 CIGARETTES!


Kasumeat posted:

There are definite benefits and drawbacks. A private system will unquestionably increase consumer costs but selection would increase DRAMATICALLY. The LCBO is particularly horrible about selection. They focus on having five thousand different $17 Malbecs and NZ Sauvignon Blancs on shelves at all times, while anything slightly obscure or not a current release is literally just not available. The SAQ is an example of a liquor monopoly that at the very least offers good selection. The biggest issue though is that restaurants are forced to pay full retail for non-Ontario wines, which is why a 300-400% markup on your BTG glass wines and 200-300% on bottles is standard (on top of some of the highest booze prices in the world) in downtown Toronto but would be considered criminal in most cities.

I don't think consumer costs would increase that much, especially on the low-end poo poo where there's tons of competition. Still, I'd rather pay a little bit more and have access to a better selection.

How can a single organization be all things to all people when there's such huge disagreement even between well-educated people who are actually in the industry? I wouldn't trust any single vendor/importer here in Alberta, even the ones I'm very fond of, to handle everything.

We still suffer from the massive glut of selection between $10-20, though (and, in a stunning coincidence, it's concentrated in the Malbec/NZSB areas too, with a smattering of Californian wines with absurd labels and no structure to speak of). That's apparently just what the market wants. The advantage here is that small stores and importers can break free of that and focus on serving a smaller, more selective clientele instead of fighting it out in the mass-market wasteland.

Kasumeat
Nov 18, 2004


PT6A posted:

I don't think consumer costs would increase that much, especially on the low-end poo poo where there's tons of competition. Still, I'd rather pay a little bit more and have access to a better selection.

How can a single organization be all things to all people when there's such huge disagreement even between well-educated people who are actually in the industry? I wouldn't trust any single vendor/importer here in Alberta, even the ones I'm very fond of, to handle everything.

We still suffer from the massive glut of selection between $10-20, though (and, in a stunning coincidence, it's concentrated in the Malbec/NZSB areas too, with a smattering of Californian wines with absurd labels and no structure to speak of). That's apparently just what the market wants. The advantage here is that small stores and importers can break free of that and focus on serving a smaller, more selective clientele instead of fighting it out in the mass-market wasteland.

Oh don't get me wrong I would get rid of the monopoly without a second thought. I haven't even begun to list the countless other benefits to doing so. But there's no question that prices would increase, it's happened literally everywhere that's done so (BC and Alberta being obvious examples). The LCBO is literally the largest single purchaser of wines in the world and they leverage some amazing deals because of it. And more importantly, you're going from a model where you're essentially paying (taxes + cost) to (taxes + cost + profit) so of course the latter is going to be more. That "taxes" figure is going to stay the same under any restructuring model that's actually going to happen.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

500 CIGARETTES!


Kasumeat posted:

Oh don't get me wrong I would get rid of the monopoly without a second thought. I haven't even begun to list the countless other benefits to doing so. But there's no question that prices would increase, it's happened literally everywhere that's done so (BC and Alberta being obvious examples). The LCBO is literally the largest single purchaser of wines in the world and they leverage some amazing deals because of it. And more importantly, you're going from a model where you're essentially paying (taxes + cost) to (taxes + cost + profit) so of course the latter is going to be more. That "taxes" figure is going to stay the same under any restructuring model that's actually going to happen.

How often is wine put on sale at the LCBO? List prices are maybe a bit lower in Ontario than Alberta, but there are tons of items (both expensive and dirt cheap) that can regularly be found for fairly impressive discounts. Likewise, is there a policy of discounts with certain purchase quantities?

Kasumeat
Nov 18, 2004


PT6A posted:

How often is wine put on sale at the LCBO? List prices are maybe a bit lower in Ontario than Alberta, but there are tons of items (both expensive and dirt cheap) that can regularly be found for fairly impressive discounts. Likewise, is there a policy of discounts with certain purchase quantities?

Quantity discounts are illegal. There are province-wide sales which are frequent and minuscule ($1 off Kim Crawford!). Bin-end sales vary from 10-30% off and are entirely at the discretion of the store product consultant once a product has been on shelves for a set amount of time (6 months?). Some stores have none ever which sucks, but occasionally you'll find stuff priced lower than just about anywhere else on the planet (I found Kistler McCrea Vineyard for $80 ($60 USD), Alois Lageder Lowengang Chardonnay for $27). I talk to wine people from BC and Alberta all the time and without fail their thoughts are "I wouldn't trade our liquor system for Ontario's in a million years, but we definitely pay more than you do most of time."

Edit: If Canada wine politics chat is bothering anyone just let us know and we'll take it to PMs

pork never goes bad
May 16, 2008

gin&milk!!!


I think it's interesting, for one. And I always appreciate activity in this thread.

meatbag
Apr 2, 2007

They're very good hands.

Clapping Larry

I'm pretty happy with the Norwegian monopoly, so it's definitely interesting to see what its like in other places.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



meatbag posted:

I'm pretty happy with the Norwegian monopoly, so it's definitely interesting to see what its like in other places.

Seconding this. Best wine store I've ever been in, valuing selection width over depth, is my local government one. Any Paris shop will be better for Bordeaux, but good luck getting a Mosel Riesling or a Tokaj. But I miss some of the opportunities the Americans have, indie distributors, wine "subscriptions", direct from producer, etc.


Anyway, speaking of Mosel, I had a consultation with Dr Loosen himself the other day. It was glorious.

meatbag
Apr 2, 2007

They're very good hands.

Clapping Larry

TIL 621 different red Bordeaux available is "width"

To be fair, thats in the webshop.

idiotsavant
Jun 4, 2000


pork never goes bad posted:

I guess drinking mostly natty wine in CA, and drinking pet nat long before Cali producers were making much, I may have a warped appreciation of trends. 00 and all that.

There are a lot of newer Cali winemakers in the whole "New California" movement and a lot of them are jumping on stuff that's coming over from natural wine movements in Europe. Carbonic maceration to some extent and skin-contact whites happened a few years back, 2014 was big on Chenin blanc, and '15 was pet nat. Trousseau and similar grapes are getting popular, too.

Comb Your Beard posted:

One of the most disappointing things I've drunk in a long time. It tasted like slightly sweet hard cider. Pretty much having no characteristics I would seek out in a sparkling wine. .

Onward makes a really nice Cali pet-nat out of Malvasia that's a really nice example of the style. You're generally looking for something immediately fresh, way more primary and somewhat simpler than champagne, generally with lots of acidity. If it's off-dry it should be a balanced off-dry. Like pork said, it's a quaffer, a vin de soif to drink on a sunny day with friends.

A lot of times it's the more natural guys figuring out how to make it, though, and it can definitely end up in weird spots - oxidized, cidery, etc. Some people get turned on by that, some people find it off-putting. I love good cider, but not so much in my wine. It might be a little chancy to find pet-nats that appeal to you depending on your market. Les Capriades is another label, imported by the Selection Massale guys, that might more fit the bill for you and hopefully isn't too hard to find.

idiotsavant fucked around with this message at Sep 30, 2016 around 19:18

unknown
Nov 16, 2002
Ain't got no stinking title yet!

LCBO's specialist wine group (Vintages) is reopening their 2015 Bordeaux futures (ie: for delivery in 2018) on Oct 5th.

http://www.vintages.com/futures/bor...ml?homepage-ca1

Ominous Balls
Apr 8, 2009


idiotsavant posted:

There are a lot of newer Cali winemakers in the whole "New California" movement and a lot of them are jumping on stuff that's coming over from natural wine movements in Europe. Carbonic maceration to some extent and skin-contact whites happened a few years back, 2014 was big on Chenin blanc, and '15 was pet nat. Trousseau and similar grapes are getting popular, too.


Onward makes a really nice Cali pet-nat out of Malvasia that's a really nice example of the style. You're generally looking for something immediately fresh, way more primary and somewhat simpler than champagne, generally with lots of acidity. If it's off-dry it should be a balanced off-dry. Like pork said, it's a quaffer, a vin de soif to drink on a sunny day with friends.

A lot of times it's the more natural guys figuring out how to make it, though, and it can definitely end up in weird spots - oxidized, cidery, etc. Some people get turned on by that, some people find it off-putting. I love good cider, but not so much in my wine. It might be a little chancy to find pet-nats that appeal to you depending on your market. Les Capriades is another label, imported by the Selection Massale guys, that might more fit the bill for you and hopefully isn't too hard to find.

Onward is good, and relatively consistent and clean as far as pet nat goes. Some of the French natural winemakers seem to welcome slight changes in the wines (from things other than the grapes) from bottling to bottling. loving Fauvists. Nothing like leaving it to the whims of indigenous yeasts.

Stinky cheese, good bread, and thee. Cloudy and rowdy, and I like 'em fine.

Left to right: Broc Cellars Sparkling Cab Franc, Broc Sparkling Chenin (from CA), Domaine Chahut "Nid de guepes", Quentin Bourse "Red is Dead" sparkling Chaulnay, Delechenau Grange Tiphaine "Rosa Rose Rosam," and the aforementioned "Les Capriades."

Yes, petillant naturel/methode ancestral is definitely trendy at the moment, but a lot of the wines that are being produced as a result are really interesting and fun.



The Les Capriades had a weird issue with over carbonation a few years back, and the pop caps were shooting off in transit, so they settled on these weird plastic closures.

The Nid de Guepes is my favorite, but it also tastes really similar to some Basque ciders, so not everyone's cup of tea. The Quentin Bourse stuff is cool because good luck finding anyone else using Chaulnay (or Chaudenay, depending on which village you are in) in their wines. It's a sprite of Gamay, but it has red flesh. It is delicious.

Ominous Balls fucked around with this message at Sep 30, 2016 around 20:59

idiotsavant
Jun 4, 2000


Distributor? What state? If it isn't NY/NJ/CA i might have some sample action for you

HUGE PUBES A PLUS
Apr 30, 2005

Nice choreography, babe. You haven't lost a step. Well then, let's dance!



College Slice

While helping the family clean my recently departed aunt's home, I became the owner of an unopened bottle of cream sherry. It looks fairly old, but with it being unused, it should still be okay, right? It's from a local Michigan winery, St Julian.

Stitecin
Feb 6, 2004
Mayor of Stitecinopolis

HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:

While helping the family clean my recently departed aunt's home, I became the owner of an unopened bottle of cream sherry. It looks fairly old, but with it being unused, it should still be okay, right? It's from a local Michigan winery, St Julian.

I'd say it should be safe to drink, whether or not it's palatable is another question, can you post a photo of the label?

Subjunctive
Sep 12, 2006

careful now


Cybernetic Crumb

Does it matter how sherry was stored?

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

500 CIGARETTES!


Sherry-style wines don't age well in-bottle. Most people will recommend that you drink it within 12-18 months after bottling, I believe.

That being said, it's unlikely that it's completely unpalatable, and it's safe to drink. Whether there's any point in drinking an old bottle of knockoff cream sherry from Michigan is a separate question.

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HUGE PUBES A PLUS
Apr 30, 2005

Nice choreography, babe. You haven't lost a step. Well then, let's dance!



College Slice

Perhaps it will be acceptable for cooking then. Took a tiny sip and it is definitely sweet, smooth and creamy.



http://www.stjulian.com/assets/clie...am%20Sherry.pdf

You can see from the document in the link the label has changed, but it has the same name.

One recipe suggestion is eggnog. This would taste very good in eggnog.

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