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bartolimu
Nov 25, 2002



Stitecin posted:

Chapatalizing is illegal in most of the new world. When it happens it usually happens with plain white sugar, no one would ever admit to it but on the rare underripe years in Napa the grocery store shelves will be bare of sugar.

Yeah, I know it's illegal but I also know enough people in the industry to know it happens. When you're talking about a flaw developing it's good to be realistic about winemaker behavior.

Stitecin posted:

The real answer is struggling yeast. Lots of things are at play; fermentation temps too high or low, osmotic pressure too high, alcohol content too high, YAN (yeast assimilatable nitrogen) too low, lack of oxygen, competition with ML bacteria, etc. can all contribute to yeast stress and different strains of yeast handle different stressors better/worse than others. The same factors contribute to regular reduction. Most of the time when I have pointed it out to friends it has been in lots that stuck and had to be restarted. The association with bad Chardonnay could be high Brix/low YAN must plus reductive winemaking to preserve the little bit of freshness plus yeast strain meant to brighten up the aromatics that aren't suited to style.

That's interesting. I found a UC Davis document that says DMS is metabolized from S- amino acids, which is obviously different form how it's understood to develop in beer. http://wineserver.ucdavis.edu/indus...characters.html

So that's cool. Thanks for the additional insights on the kinds of fermentation environments that can contribute. It's odd that meads don't show signs of DMS given how dependent they are on nutrient additions for sufficient YAN, but maybe they don't have enough S- amino acids to be metabolized. I'd think fruited meads would be a great environment for that kind of thing, but I've never tasted one that showed signs of it.

Kasumeat posted:

Yes, it can develop in bottle.

If DMS is a product of yeast stress, that should only happen with MT sparklers. Pretty much everything else is sorbated and metabisulfated into inactivity, and fined (often filtered) so there shouldn't be any small-scale autolysis going on in-bottle.

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Kasumeat
Nov 18, 2004


bartolimu posted:

If DMS is a product of yeast stress, that should only happen with MT sparklers. Pretty much everything else is sorbated and metabisulfated into inactivity, and fined (often filtered) so there shouldn't be any small-scale autolysis going on in-bottle.

It's possible I could be wrong. I wish I could find my source on this, but I can't seem to locate it. I know that the best winemaker in the country has said it can happen.

Crimson
Nov 6, 2002


Kasumeat posted:

I know that the best winemaker in the country has said it can happen.

Strange thing to say, unless you're being a little sarcastic. Best according to who? Who is this person?

bartolimu
Nov 25, 2002



Kasumeat posted:

It's possible I could be wrong. I wish I could find my source on this, but I can't seem to locate it. I know that the best winemaker in the country has said it can happen.

I'm very open to reading a source if you can find it. Organic chemistry is a strange beast, and weird things can happen.

Sensory DMS detection is increased by the presence of some higher alcohols. It's possible something in the alcohol profile changes over time in the bottle to make it more perceptible without actually changing the ppm at all.

Kasumeat
Nov 18, 2004


Crimson posted:

Strange thing to say, unless you're being a little sarcastic. Best according to who? Who is this person?

Me, Norman Hardie.

Stitecin
Feb 6, 2004
Mayor of Stitecinopolis

bartolimu posted:

I'm very open to reading a source if you can find it. Organic chemistry is a strange beast, and weird things can happen.

Sensory DMS detection is increased by the presence of some higher alcohols. It's possible something in the alcohol profile changes over time in the bottle to make it more perceptible without actually changing the ppm at all.
ETS Labs is usually worth a search for these things. The entries in their library are brief but written by PhDs.

ETS Labs posted:

From the linked article: Diethyl And Dimethyl Sulfide (H3C-S-CH3)

Diethyl sulfide is usually present in wine at levels below its sensory threshold.

Dimethyl sulfide (DMS) is present in almost all wines and is probably a breakdown product of amino acids. The formation of DMS does not appear to be related to H2S production. At low levels (15 to 20 ppb in whites and 20 to 30 ppb in reds) DMS can contribute roundness, fruitiness, or complexity.

DMS concentrations increase with wine age and the canned corn or truffle sensory characteristics of DMS may develop during bottle aging. At higher levels (> 30 ppb for whites and > 50 ppb for reds) DMS may contribute vegetative, cooked cabbage, or sulfide smells to wines. DMS does not respond to copper applications.

I guess concentration can rise in bottle. I am going to try to make time tomorrow to look into it more. In the meantime here are more sources:
Bobet, R. A., Noble, A. C., Boulton, R. B., Kinetics of the Ethanethiol and Diethyl Disulfide Interconversion in Wine-Like Solutions. Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry 1990, 38, 449-452.

Zoecklein, B., Managing Sulfur-like Off Odors in Wine. Wine Business Monthly 2008, Feb, 106-115

A.C. Clark, E.N. Wilkes, G.R. Scollary, Chemistry of Copper in White Wine. Australian Journal of Grape and Wine Research Volume 21 (3): 339-347

https://www.enartis.com/us/library/...aromas_5150.htm

Stitecin fucked around with this message at Feb 27, 2018 around 06:04

Professor Shark
May 22, 2012



Pillbug

Well, it took getting in contact with someone living in a different country, but I'm happy to say that I have a bottle of Bollinger 007 2009 champagne waiting for me to come and get/ have it brought to me!

got off on a technicality
Feb 7, 2007

oh dear


Nicely done. I've not had that one but have been very happy with 09 vintage champagne anytime I've had it

Professor Shark
May 22, 2012



Pillbug

got off on a technicality posted:

Nicely done. I've not had that one but have been very happy with 09 vintage champagne anytime I've had it

Thanks, I'm really looking forward to it!

In the meantime, we got some good news today and would like to keep opening that bubbly- what are some opinions on Mumm Cordon Rouge Brut?

consensual poster
Sep 1, 2009



Professor Shark posted:

In the meantime, we got some good news today and would like to keep opening that bubbly- what are some opinions on Mumm Cordon Rouge Brut?

Congrats on whatever the good news is. You should treat yourself to something much better than Mumm.

Furious Lobster
Jun 17, 2006



Grimey Drawer

Ď06 Taittinger Comtes is drinking really nice now. I bought a couple of cases to age and have already gone through 1.

Professor Shark
May 22, 2012



Pillbug

consensual poster posted:

Congrats on whatever the good news is. You should treat yourself to something much better than Mumm.

I've never had before, is it not great?

consensual poster
Sep 1, 2009



Professor Shark posted:

I've never had before, is it not great?

Everything I've ever had from Mumm has been bad to my palate, but I mostly drink Extra-Brut and no dosage grower Champagne, so... Į\_(ツ)_/Į

You live in Nova Scotia and are limited to what the state-owned liquor stores can bring in, right? Makes it kind of difficult to suggest something really fun. The basic Bollinger cuvee is probably a lot better than the Mumm and only a bit more expensive.

Professor Shark
May 22, 2012



Pillbug

Yeah, selection is limited to say the least. I have the option of Pol Roger, Moet & Chandon, and Veuve Clicquot Yellow that are all closer. We've had the first two before, and while I loved the Pol Roger it would be nice to do something different. Maybe the Clicquot Yellow? That's what my parents always went with.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006



Professor Shark posted:

Yeah, selection is limited to say the least. I have the option of Pol Roger, Moet & Chandon, and Veuve Clicquot Yellow that are all closer. We've had the first two before, and while I loved the Pol Roger it would be nice to do something different. Maybe the Clicquot Yellow? That's what my parents always went with.

That's what I'd suggest. Mumm has consistently disappointed me, and Yellow Label is always a dependable Champagne.

Democratic Pirate
Feb 17, 2010



Mumm gave my wife and I stomachaches when we did the Napa tour. My wife got one partway through her second flute, mine came at the end of the tour after Iíd finished my 6 flutes and 4.5 of hers.

Professor Shark
May 22, 2012



Pillbug

Yikes, scratch that. I guess Yellow Label if I'm feeling lazy, Henri Abele Rose (which my partner and I both really enjoyed before) if I feel like going a bit out of my way

got off on a technicality
Feb 7, 2007

oh dear


Yes anything but Mumm

If they have Laurent Perrier I like LP's NV Ultra Brut for not much more than Clicquot. Also pretty happy with Taittinger

e: have you examined the wonderful world of pet nat (anything from Bugey-Cerdon for example)

got off on a technicality fucked around with this message at Mar 8, 2018 around 16:39

got off on a technicality
Feb 7, 2007

oh dear


Furious Lobster posted:

‘06 Taittinger Comtes is drinking really nice now. I bought a couple of cases to age and have already gone through 1.

I am a CdC fan and don't love the 06 although everyone else seems to :/

Plus there's Krug GC 165 to be had for not much more

Furious Lobster
Jun 17, 2006



Grimey Drawer

got off on a technicality posted:

I am a CdC fan and don't love the 06 although everyone else seems to :/

Plus there's Krug GC 165 to be had for not much more

164 was really good and I've heard that 165 is just as good if not better but the price difference is pretty clear between Krug & CdC by about $70~ or and change, which adds up in a case.

got off on a technicality
Feb 7, 2007

oh dear


Where I am the 06 CdC is ~$125 and the GC 165 is ~$155 but that's fair. FWIW I've had both the 164 and 165 and I think the 165 is much more generous for near-term drinking though the 164 is more complex and likely more rewarding further out

Kasumeat
Nov 18, 2004


If you like Krug, Charles Heidsieck NV is a very small step down from the in quality from the GC for a big step down in price.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



I'm a big Heidsieck fan. Henriot is also great. Don't think I've ever tasted Mumm, will do as soon as I can because it's nice to get together as a community and hate on something.

got off on a technicality
Feb 7, 2007

oh dear


I've just bought a bottle; thanks for the tip

By the way do you know the SommPicks and the Vine & Rare people? Are they good?

e: make sure you try Mumm DVX for maximum hate

Crimson
Nov 6, 2002


Really weird to see my worlds collide at times in this thread. I just met Caleb at SommPicks, seems like a really great guy. His wine bar in NYC, La Compagnie, is awesome. Don't know him well. As far as Vine & Rare, I have bought tens of thousands of dollars of wine from them, and the failure rate on their bottles is perfectly in reasonable range for the age of their offerings. They also offer full refunds on all manners of wine faults. The guys behind it are good friends of mine, really good dudes.

poop dood
May 31, 2011

$#$%^&@@*!!!


Hi thread! I'm a beer and spirits nerd and a bartender by trade, I've been somewhat casually working on studying for my level 1 somm certification. I've been working in a French restaurant for the last four years so I know French wine like the back of my hand, and I'm picking up Italian, Spanish and New World stuff pretty well just through tasting. Haven't really done any book-learnin' at all. Do you guys have any tips for the level 1 test? Books to recommend that go beyond the intro-level stuff? How much do I actually need to know for just the first level? Yesterday my tasting group (a bunch of my coworkers who are also good friends of mine) met up and I aced our blind-taste bottle on year and region, a 2013 Barolo, so I feel like my knowledge level is pretty serviceable as of now. I'd appreciate any tips or guidance you could provide.

Kasumeat
Nov 18, 2004


What organisation are you doing your exam with?

One piece of advice I can give you either way is to learn a little humility. It will help you keep learning. The world of wine is infinitely immense. As you learn more, you'll come to realise how little you know.

got off on a technicality
Feb 7, 2007

oh dear


Crimson posted:

As far as Vine & Rare, I have bought tens of thousands of dollars of wine from them, and the failure rate on their bottles is perfectly in reasonable range for the age of their offerings. They also offer full refunds on all manners of wine faults. The guys behind it are good friends of mine, really good dudes.

Nice; please tell them I've been loving the selection & the service. I could see them match/exceed Envoyer in terms of my monthly wine buying (oh my god my partner is going to kill me)

Furious Lobster
Jun 17, 2006



Grimey Drawer

got off on a technicality posted:

Nice; please tell them I've been loving the selection & the service. I could see them match/exceed Envoyer in terms of my monthly wine buying (oh my god my partner is going to kill me)

Oh I donít need more places to buy wine. Iíve been spending a lot in the fb razzle groups instead of Envoyer these days.

poop dood
May 31, 2011

$#$%^&@@*!!!


Kasumeat posted:

What organisation are you doing your exam with?

One piece of advice I can give you either way is to learn a little humility. It will help you keep learning. The world of wine is infinitely immense. As you learn more, you'll come to realise how little you know.

Court of Masters I guess, that's what all the people I've spoken to have used. Haven't really heard anything to convince me to go through anywhere else.

I do try to stay humble; I think your advice is something everyone needs to hear and I do appreciate hearing it. I am actually flattered that you felt that I made myself seem like I need to be told that; if anything I am too aware of how little I know, thus my wanting to know how much I actually do need to know. Christ that was a complicated sentence.

got off on a technicality
Feb 7, 2007

oh dear


Furious Lobster posted:

Iíve been spending a lot in the fb razzle groups
Wait a minute what are these?

Furious Lobster
Jun 17, 2006



Grimey Drawer

got off on a technicality posted:

Wait a minute what are these?

It's basically wine gambling. They're called razzles to get around word detection for raffles and they're based on below WS Pro/ WMJ data valuation prices. They run on IL fireball numbers so one gets a 10% chance to win a bottle.

Kasumeat
Nov 18, 2004


poop dood posted:

Court of Masters I guess, that's what all the people I've spoken to have used. Haven't really heard anything to convince me to go through anywhere else.

I do try to stay humble; I think your advice is something everyone needs to hear and I do appreciate hearing it. I am actually flattered that you felt that I made myself seem like I need to be told that; if anything I am too aware of how little I know, thus my wanting to know how much I actually do need to know. Christ that was a complicated sentence.

CMS Level 1 is very basic. What's the primary grape of Rioja, which region of Italy would you be most likely to find Barbera, that sort of stuff.

Guildsomm is dollar-for-dollar the best resource if you plan on continuing your studies past the intro stage, but probably not worth the investment if that's all you plan to do. If you're looking for something more basic, Kevin Zraly's Windows on the World is what I started with and I recommend it as a first wine book. It goes into more detail than you'll need for level 1, but it's still quite digestible other than the Hungary section which is way too much for an intro book.

poop dood
May 31, 2011

$#$%^&@@*!!!


Kasumeat posted:

CMS Level 1 is very basic. What's the primary grape of Rioja, which region of Italy would you be most likely to find Barbera, that sort of stuff.

Guildsomm is dollar-for-dollar the best resource if you plan on continuing your studies past the intro stage, but probably not worth the investment if that's all you plan to do. If you're looking for something more basic, Kevin Zraly's Windows on the World is what I started with and I recommend it as a first wine book. It goes into more detail than you'll need for level 1, but it's still quite digestible other than the Hungary section which is way too much for an intro book.

Right on, thanks for the info. I know someone who has Guildsomm and has mentioned it several times as being really useful. I plan on getting my level 2 so I think I'll at least consider that.

Skooms
Nov 5, 2009


Crimson posted:

Really weird to see my worlds collide at times in this thread. I just met Caleb at SommPicks, seems like a really great guy. His wine bar in NYC, La Compagnie, is awesome. Don't know him well. As far as Vine & Rare, I have bought tens of thousands of dollars of wine from them, and the failure rate on their bottles is perfectly in reasonable range for the age of their offerings. They also offer full refunds on all manners of wine faults. The guys behind it are good friends of mine, really good dudes.

I pretty consistently read this thread, and I'm based out of NYC. I also know Caleb. Just to throw a little more world touching out there. I work at one of the the restaurants in NYC that is half (two thirds?) way to establishing itself as a wine (spender) destination.

Professor Shark
May 22, 2012



Pillbug

We decided on the Bollinger Special Cuvee, and it was great last night! It tasted much better after it was given time to "breath", which I think I remember Roger Moore actually saying in some Bond film.

got off on a technicality
Feb 7, 2007

oh dear


Skooms posted:

I pretty consistently read this thread, and I'm based out of NYC. I also know Caleb. Just to throw a little more world touching out there. I work at one of the the restaurants in NYC that is half (two thirds?) way to establishing itself as a wine (spender) destination.

I'd love to know which restaurant, if only because I like going to that sort of place when I visit NYC; maybe tell me via PM please?

quote:

We decided on the Bollinger Special Cuvee, and it was great last night! It tasted much better after it was given time to "breath", which I think I remember Roger Moore actually saying in some Bond film.

I've found that I increasingly prefer giving whites/champagnes more air & time. Reds of all kinds I just pop & pour (& follow their development in glass)

got off on a technicality fucked around with this message at Mar 18, 2018 around 21:41

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



Trip report from the Jura wines I mentioned a few months ago:

1999 Rolet Arbois Memorial - has survived aging perfectly, but not much more. I get it now, Jura reds can age but it doesn't age into something amazing and complex, just nice. A pleasant drink at a nice price, I paid $70 for a magnum. Not as light bodied as the color would suggest, and the color suggested light as hell. You could almost read a newspaper vertically through a full glass. Seems recently corked, I think they keep their bottles for a long time, recork and label on release. Good insurance against faulty bottles. I'll probably buy more at some point, but not if I can get some:

1996 Rolet Chardonnay - now we're talking. Quite recently recorked, in absolute perfect shape, well developed, complex, balanced, just wow. Plenty of acidity, a bit of a bitter finish (which is a Jurassic feature I suppose). Paid $76 for the magnum, which is hilariously good value. It had a bit of butter and oak, which I like, some mysterious stone and spice which came and went and a lot of well developed yellow fruit. Not quite those very lemony notes, but something like that. Not as good as great white Burg, but price/quality like whoa. I don't think it will get hyped to the moon, so no reason to not keep buying this forever.

Ola fucked around with this message at Mar 25, 2018 around 20:34

Kasumeat
Nov 18, 2004


Thanks for sharing, I don't have much experience with old Jura outside of Savagnin so it's interesting to hear. They certainly talk it up (verbatim from a producer talking about their entry-level red blend: "We do not make fruity wines for early consumption. Our wines are designed to age a minimum of 100 years.") but I haven't tried many. The exception is some 2004 Bornard Poulsard which was in our market recently and my impression was the exact same as yours. It was still holding on (a fair bit) better than expected, but it didn't exactly make a case for aging them; if anything it was less charming than the wine likely was in its youth.

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idiotsavant
Jun 4, 2000


Pricing questions for you industry guys. I want to price myself at reasonable, value-driven numbers, but I gotta pay rent still.

What do you see as a fair price for CA rose? Small scale, hands on winemaking, etc. Juicy, fresh, nice acid and a little grip on the end. If youíre getting a best price of around $12/btl is that pretty crushable? I keep seeing roses for $20+ retail, sometimes $30+ which seems insane.

Same question for a super juicy, insanely drinkable Lodi Tempranillo blend. Itís straight-up sweet berry wine with Tempranillo funk. Afaik under $20 retail goes like hotcakes; would best price of $13-14/btl slow it down pretty hard?

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