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80% of the biodynamic stuff is bullshit, but the remainder is actually pretty sophisticated and thoughtful agricultural practices (that are common in Bordeaux) that are labor intensive and reward heavy such as intercropping vines with indicator plants, growing other fruits and vegetables on the land/raising animals to create the best soil conditions and fertilizers, etc... It’s weird to go to a vineyard like Foradori and see these processes in practice and then have the host get into the lunar calendar and poo poo... Biomute posted:Sure, but do most consumers buy into it? Like, is a sizable part of the the people who seek out bio-dynamic wines convinced it is somehow a safer, ecofriendly or more spiritual approach, or are most people just wine geeks looking for eccentric/good wines?
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Nov 29, 2018 19:00
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straight up brolic posted:In speaking to him at the vineyard, this is why Cornelissen went back to making traditional style white wines vs macerated for this vintage and going forward. He argued that although he likes the macerated wines more, he finds the traditional to be more representative of Etna. Not sure that I agree, and I also preferred his macerated whites, but it’s an interesting perspective. I asked him awhile ago what informed his decisions on how he vinified different grapes and he was super direct about it - “I want to eliminate fruit entirely” with the idea that only terroir shows through if you’re successful. His wines aren’t always my cup of tea, but I always enjoy that they’re at least thought-provoking.
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Nov 29, 2018 19:14
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On a different note I’m going to a Gamay party on Saturday and would love a cool bottle in the $30-60 price range that is an atypical expression of the grape either through provenance or process. Are there any fairly widely available examples that someone could recommend?
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Nov 29, 2018 22:05
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I can't really recommend anything, but some searching shows it's mostly light reds from Beaujolais. Highly rated wines that break with this stereotype include: Eldridge Estate Gamay, Mornington Peninsula, Australia (supposedly a much richer take) and Coudert Pere 'Clos de la Roilette' Fleurie Cuvee Tardive (a dessert wine made with Gamay?)
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Nov 29, 2018 22:23
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Not pure Gamay but Passetoutgrain is loving amazing
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Nov 29, 2018 22:38
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straight up brolic posted:On a different note I’m going to a Gamay party on Saturday and would love a cool bottle in the $30-60 price range that is an atypical expression of the grape either through provenance or process. I mean, there are some fairly structured examples that are ageworthy and show a moderate amount of new oak but I'm not sure if that's quite "atypical" enough for you. Chateau des Jacques should be widely available though I don't think it's particularly good. There is also rose. But neither of those are particularly weird, IMO. If you want to bring something different, I'd try to find something with some age on it. I'd feel pretty safe going back 10-15 years for Cru Bojo from decent producers—obviously the more structured villages of Moulin-a-Vent and Morgon are ideal—or 20+ from top ones. We also make the best Gamay outside of Beaujolais here in Ontario, but I doubt it's widely available, especially from top producers. Kasumeat fucked around with this message at 07:21 on Nov 30, 2018 |
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Nov 30, 2018 07:14
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I had a Gamay from Oregon that really blew my mind. Straight up blackberry juice. Really indulgent, ripe dark fruit with high acidity. Super atypical for that grape, but very tasty.
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Nov 30, 2018 20:05
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Today I am drinking an Assyrtiko by Gaia Wild Ferment (2017). Right out of the bottle it is very herbal and has a strong gooseberry note in the nose. I'm not talking mint here, but more of a grassy green tea / sage vibe; bordering on bitter. Likewise, the gooseberry was not the sweet and ripe one you get in something like a NZ Sauvignon Blanc, but more like the sour ones you can pick during summer while they're still firm to the touch. After being decanted for an hour a subtle spiciness is added to the aroma, and the gooseberry becomes slightly more ripe and fruity (rather than straight citric) in both the aroma and the flavor. It's got a dry and slightly mineral finish. It's enjoyable. I kind of expected it to be funkier, and I'm not certain I like it for the pork and roasted garlic/tomato pasta I paired it with, but it would definitely go with something like langoustines drenched in butter and garlic.
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Nov 30, 2018 20:55
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straight up brolic posted:My mom cares about biodynamic certification and doesn’t buy mom without it for alleged health reasons Whatever rocks her boat  I was going to share a bottle of Foradori Fontanasanta Manzoni Bianco 2015 with my girlfriend, and I'd been looking forward to it a whole lot since it's another skin-contact natural wine that is supposedly on the restrained side. Unfortunately, when I popped it the cork was quite wet, had a large crack in it, and smelled very vinegary. The wine itself was not sour though, in fact it was weirdly muted, and had a dirt/cellar aroma with an aftertaste that seemed questionable. Neither of us are experts, but one of the perks of having a state monopoly as your only source of wine is that they'll take the bottle back and replace it or give you your money back no questions asked so we will do just that. I want to try another bottle though, maybe a 2016 instead. Luckily, as I'd already splashed out on some king crab that I wanted to cook for her we had another bottle of white wine stored somewhat improperly on our bookshelf for an occasion. It was a William Fevre Chablis Vaillons Premier Cru 2016. Up front it had an aroma of sour green apples, with hints of peach which transforms into a floral, perhaps even tropical note. The flavor was mostly the apple, but a green herbal/grassiness was also present; off the top of my head I'd say clover or chives. The finish was dry, and very long. The balance of the wine seemed very elegant to me. I don't really have any basis with which to call it classic, but if I were to guess this would be a good example of a classic french white wine to serve with french food. It still did a great job with my Asian-style king crab recipe though. thotsky fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Dec 1, 2018 |
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Dec 1, 2018 22:23
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Trying the Villa Conchi Cava that was recommended. It was ridiculously cheap at the duty-free. There is nothing wrong with it, but there's honestly noting great about it either. I like the balance; it's dry, it's got some good acidity and it is very lively, but there is almost no aroma, and only a light flavor of apples and lemon. It is great value; it avoids the pitfalls of other cheap bubbly I've had and if I was interested in getting smashed regularly I'd stock up, but since I'm not I will probably not buy this again. I guess if you were hosting a big party this would be a good choice, or maybe you just want a go-to dry sparkling wine. Personally, I can get a bottle of Saison Dupont (beer) at about the same price, and that is more interesting to me, but I do see the appeal. thotsky fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Dec 8, 2018 |
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Dec 8, 2018 01:07
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I've been trying to get into wine lately and I'm totally overwhelmed. The OP was very helpful in terms of helping me place into words what I already knew. I come from the beer world and literally know nothing about it. I did try a bunch of tastings but nothing really stands out in my head. Adjectives are coming to me very slowly, I mostly see myself taking notes like, fresh red berries, freshly cut red berries, red jam, like syrup, lead pencil, sticky, chewy, a mix of over ripened berries etc. I eventually want to be as knowledgeable in wine as I am currently in beer, I can remember what a beer tastes like 3-4 years ago, names of breweries etc. I guess the only way to do this is time? Cause I've been drinking beer for 8-9 years at this point. I'm also having a stupidly hard time remember how to pronounce the Spanish, French and Italian words too. Anyway, I did find a wine that I really enjoyed. 2017 Jean-Michel Dupre "Vignes de 1940" Beaujolais Villages. It was easy to drink, juicy and very fruit forward. I'm trying to narrow down what I currently like in terms of styles.
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Dec 8, 2018 01:12
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Sort of in the same situation, although I have been drinking wine for many years it always was a very rare thing. I've found it easiest to start with the broadest of strokes like trying to decide between black and red fruit for red wines. I feel like white wines are more complex, but I think I have got the hang of differentiating between apple and citrus combinations (kind of unripe) vs stone and tropical fruit ones (ripe). Oak vs no oak is a fun place to start for both as well.
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Dec 8, 2018 01:38
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Putting words to wine is a very fun topic. It's strongly affected by social hierarchies, linguistics and psychology. Small example, my brain has learned two flavors of raspberry, one for actual raspberries, another for what wine reviewers call "raspberry" in wine. They're similar, but not identical in the way that a blackcurrant bush seems to emit the exact same molecule as a Sauvignon Blanc. You're strongly affected by what you learn from those you respect or at least those who you think know their poo poo. You'd think it would be good advice to resist this somehow and try to develop your own understanding, but I would actually advise the contrary. I've learned a lot from reading reviews of classic wines and then trying to find the notes while tasting. This will push you towards conformism, but it will give more reward in return in my opinion. With a "correct" answer to compare to, it will provide many aha! moments which you can later build your own experiences on. Tasting and smelling other stuff is also very important. I mean things that you use to describe the tastes, like berries, other foods, anything that has a distinctive smell. I find myself often digging into childhood memories to describe smells and sometimes wonder if my brain is no longer accepting new data in the scent memory bank. Classics are important to learn in my opinion, because they define styles of wine better than grape varietals. When I started out learning wine, I tried to taste different grape varietals and learn something from that, but that was a mistake. I should have learned classic styles first because that's foundation most other wines try to imitate, and as a side effect you actually learn the grape varietals better. Chardonnay-based classics are a great place to start, because they are so expressive and different. Biomute sums it well with differently colored apples, citrus and oak. You can get Champagne, Chablis and Burgundy for three different expressions of the same grape and learn something about terroir and tradition at the same time. Between them they can contain yellow or green apples, citrus, tropical fruit, wood, stone, butter, nuts, flowers, seawater, oysters, bread, biscuits, the list goes on from there. Two major red styles are of course Bordeaux and Burgundy. Bordeaux teaches you the big style and vegetal notes of Cabernet Sauvignon. It can be like fresh tobacco, tomato vine, or that green scent you get from rubbing a leaf or breaking a fresh twig. Burgundy's Pinot Noir is the medium bodied style with cherries, violet flowers and "raspberry" (hehe). Both styles have tons more flavors obviously, but if you nail those first ones you can separate them in blind tastings with ease. And there are more classics and many more tasting notes, but I think these three classic categories provide the best learning value. They're widely available in any price or quality category and are widely written about so you have something to compare with.
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Dec 8, 2018 11:33
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Learning from somebody who knows their poo poo is really the only way to go about it. One of the big challenges about finding "classic" wines right now is that many producers are moving away from classic styles, both through intent and through climate change. Finding somebody who can really tell you whether there's actually white pepper in that Gruner (a "classic" tasting note that occurs in perhaps 10% of Gruners, if that), especially if they can do so with reasonable certainty before you open the bottle, is invaluable. Ola is speaking about the classic green vegetal notes found in red Bordeaux, but 95% of producers out there are trying to make wines that show absolutely none of it, and many are succeeding. So if you open a given bottle of red Bordeaux from a high-quality producer, especially in a ripe year (2015-2018 are all 9+/10 in ripeness), odds are it won't show any green at all. You really need someone who knows their poo poo if you hope to find a bottle of "classic" Bordeaux these days, and the same is true of many other styles.
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Dec 8, 2018 18:49
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Kasumeat posted:You really need someone who knows their poo poo if you hope to find a bottle of "classic" Bordeaux these days, and the same is true of many other styles.
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Dec 8, 2018 22:23
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got off on a technicality posted:Look I generally agree with your post but it’s not that hard to find traditionalists in Bordeaux that retain some of that classic greenness. Start with Sociando Mallet Right, but you have to actually know your producers to find them. If you're buying a random recent release of cru classé, odds are you won't find it.
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Dec 8, 2018 23:22
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I find that taste in most Cab I drink, it's just not as pronounced or as green in ripe ones. Fresh rolling tobacco is a classic note, but not very common knowledge these days. Perhaps it's gone completely in very jammy ones.
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Dec 8, 2018 23:34
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Biomute posted:Trying the Villa Conchi Cava that was recommended. It was ridiculously cheap at the duty-free. There is nothing wrong with it, but there's honestly noting great about it either. I like the balance; it's dry, it's got some good acidity and it is very lively, but there is almost no aroma, and only a light flavor of apples and lemon. It is great value; it avoids the pitfalls of other cheap bubbly I've had and if I was interested in getting smashed regularly I'd stock up, but since I'm not I will probably not buy this again. Fair enough, that's pretty much what I'd say about it and I'm the one who recommended it.
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Dec 9, 2018 02:49
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I am happy to have tried it, so thank you for the recommendation! Ola: I ended up buying a Bassermann-Jordan Hohenmorgen Riesling GG (2017) that I'm planning to save for some ribbe (Norwegian pork belly) the day before Christmas. You think that is going to work? I considered serving it with the pinnekjøtt (Norwegian salted, sometimes smoked, then rehydrated and steamed racks of lamb) on Christmas Eve, but beer and akevitt is kind of traditional. Btw, that label is really something: 
thotsky fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Dec 9, 2018 |
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Dec 9, 2018 03:13
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Biomute posted:I ended up buying a Bassermann-Jordan Hohenmorgen Riesling GG (2017) that I'm planning to save for some ribbe (Norwegian pork belly) the day before Christmas. You think that is going to work? German Riesling and fatty pork is a match made in heaven. Make sure you give it plenty of time and air. GG that young tends to be tightly wound.
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Dec 9, 2018 04:59
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Riesling is unique in that it's delicious at pretty much any age, but as CP mentions, GGs are typically meant to age for 10-20 years before consumption, so the wine will be a pale shadow of what it would become. Riesling also prone to unpleasant sulfurous aromas that are often produced when ambient yeast (which BJ use for their GG wines) ferment a high acid wine in a reductive environment (ie. the stainless steel tanks that this and most Rieslings are fermented in). I would suggest opening at a day ahead of time, taste it, and let it sit decanted overnight if it smells sulfurous.
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Dec 9, 2018 08:05
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Kasumeat posted:Finding somebody who can really tell you whether there's actually white pepper in that Gruner (a "classic" tasting note that occurs in perhaps 10% of Gruners, if that) What are you basing that on? I get white pepper on just about every single Gruner I taste. The aromatic compound, rotundone, is naturally present in the skins of Gruner grapes. About the only time it gets tricky to pull out is in a Hirtzberger that is just thick with botrytis. They still smell to me a bit like savory greens and white pepper, amidst all the ginger/saffron/honey.
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Dec 9, 2018 08:55
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Yeah I too think it will be a good match. I haven't found Basserman-Jordan to be as sulphur smelling as some other GGs can be, so I'm not sure if I would open it a day in advance. There's a risk of oxidizing it as well, isn't there? I'd open it three hours in advance, have a glass and leave it to breathe in the bottle. I always get some backup beers anyway, cork risk etc. Best case, the wine is great and afterwards there's beer!
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Dec 9, 2018 09:03
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Crimson posted:What are you basing that on? I get white pepper on just about every single Gruner I taste. The aromatic compound, rotundone, is naturally present in the skins of Gruner grapes. About the only time it gets tricky to pull out is in a Hirtzberger that is just thick with botrytis. They still smell to me a bit like savory greens and white pepper, amidst all the ginger/saffron/honey. Personal experience. To be more accurate, it's sometimes there but almost always extremely faint. The rotundone content of GV is actually a little higher than Syrah, but as you mention, it's in the skins, so unless you're doing significant skin contact, only a tiny fraction makes it into the wine. And it's not just me: I've literally never heard somebody who was blind tasting a Gruner describe white pepper unless they had already decided it was a Gruner. You've probably witnessed literally hundreds of blind tastings where the taster was in neutral white territory, but could not decide between some combination of Chablis/Albarino/Pinot Grigio/GV. Nobody in that spot ever describes white pepper before they settle on GV, it's always tacked on at the end because they know it's supposed to be there.
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Dec 9, 2018 09:27
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White pepper in Gruner is nowhere near as distinct as white pepper in Pineau D'Aunis. I feel this way about many "classic" notes - they may be distinct, and identifiable, but often only in sighted tasting, and often only because some more distinct exemplar is no longer produced in any significant manner because of the homogenization of fine wine. It's not clear to me what conclusions to draw from this, exactly, but try Poivre et Sel and tell me that white pepper came after you called the wine and I'll be flabbergasted. Minimally, the fact that classic styles often mean that not only the grape and place are the same but that the same series of productive or interventionist steps are followed suggests to me that the entire notion of classic ought to be rethought, if only because it's no longer useful for consumers and the anchor of history is only unclearly useful for producers and cataloguers today.
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Dec 9, 2018 09:56
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That's typical of that psychological element of wine tasting. You know it's supposed to be white pepper, so you say "white pepper" even if you're not definitely tasting it. I've done it many times. I think I see it most often with Barolos. Even if it's a muted, closed example, people tend to list all the notes they know are typical Barolo.
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Dec 9, 2018 09:57
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consensual poster posted:GG that young tends to be tightly wound. Kasumeat posted:as CP mentions, GGs are typically meant to age for 10-20 years before consumption, so the wine will be a pale shadow of what it would become. Ola posted:I haven't found Basserman-Jordan to be as sulphur smelling as some other GGs can be, so I'm not sure if I would open it a day in advance. Yeah, I sort of figured, but I read somewhere that a GG would be very good for this particular application, and the choice was between this one and a bottle of Schloss Johannisberg Silberlack Riesling GG. The Silberlack did actually have a few more years on it, but everywhere I looked online seemed to indicate that it would be better matched with seafood then pork, and that it still needed aging where as people were enjoying the Bassermann-Jordan right now. If nothing else I might learn to recognize something that is "young" so I am not too worried.
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Dec 9, 2018 14:56
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If I wanted to get a book on wine, what should I get? The main contenders seem to be: The Oxford Companion to Wine, The World Atlas of Wine and The Wine Bible. Does anyone have any experience with these books? I like reading about stuff, but in the digital age can these books compete with the likes of wine-searcher/wine-folly etc?
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Dec 9, 2018 21:48
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Ola posted:Putting words to wine is a very fun topic. It's strongly affected by social hierarchies, linguistics and psychology. Small example, my brain has learned two flavors of raspberry, one for actual raspberries, another for what wine reviewers call "raspberry" in wine. They're similar, but not identical in the way that a blackcurrant bush seems to emit the exact same molecule as a Sauvignon Blanc. I've also been trying to get into whiskey / bourbon. What I like to do is pull up a YouTube video or two, then drink while watching the review. Typically the review will be able to pull notes out, or articulate things that I am currently unable to put into words. Do you think it would be beneficial for me to pull a red from Bordeaux and Burgundy then compare? Also on another note, my wife doesn't drink and I don't have many friends that are into wine; they're mostly craft beer drinkers. Is there something better than a stopper in terms of preserving my wine so I can drink it another day? I really don't want to polish off a whole bottle and if I'm comparing two bottles, I might not make it into work the next day. I've seen cans of air that I can spray into the bottle, do those work?
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Dec 9, 2018 22:33
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obi_ant posted:I've also been trying to get into whiskey / bourbon. What I like to do is pull up a YouTube video or two, then drink while watching the review. Typically the review will be able to pull notes out, or articulate things that I am currently unable to put into words. Do you think it would be beneficial for me to pull a red from Bordeaux and Burgundy then compare? Imitation is a good learning technique, as is A/B comparisons. Videos or text reviews will have some notes you can try to find in the bottle. It can still be a bit tricky. It works best with quite distinct wines, because generic ones with "berries, red fruit" don't really taste like real berries or real red fruits, they just taste like fermented grape juice. Getting one bottle of each and tasting back/forth will make it easier to tell the styles apart and it will teach you more about your own taste, what it is you like. If you can't finish two bottles, let them evolve overnight (see below). obi_ant posted:Also on another note, my wife doesn't drink and I don't have many friends that are into wine; they're mostly craft beer drinkers. Is there something better than a stopper in terms of preserving my wine so I can drink it another day? I really don't want to polish off a whole bottle and if I'm comparing two bottles, I might not make it into work the next day. I've seen cans of air that I can spray into the bottle, do those work? Cheapest is something like this: https://www.amazon.com/Original-Vacu-Vin-Vacuum-Stoppers/dp/B000GA3KCE I bought one off eBay and it was junk, didn't pull a vacuum at all, but some of them work ok apparently. Most important thing, put it in the fridge. Cooling down slows all chemical reactions, including oxidizing. For the rare occasion I don't polish off the whole bottle, I put a regular stopper or the cork back in. If the wine changes, it's usually at least an interesting change. Although one quite expensive premier cru Burgundy went bad on me after a night in the fridge, I guess Pinot Noir is more delicate.
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Dec 9, 2018 23:29
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For preservation I’ve had good luck with https://savinowine.com/ and putting it in the fridge. A wine nerd friend who visited said that some baco noir we had held up very well after 2 days, so that’s the evidence I have.
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Dec 9, 2018 23:44
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Subjunctive posted:For preservation I’ve had good luck with https://savinowine.com/ and putting it in the fridge. A wine nerd friend who visited said that some baco noir we had held up very well after 2 days, so that’s the evidence I have. I'll take a look. Thanks! Also, with this product would I still need to keep the wine in the fridge? Ola posted:Cheapest is something like this: https://www.amazon.com/Original-Vacu-Vin-Vacuum-Stoppers/dp/B000GA3KCE I bought one off eBay and it was junk, didn't pull a vacuum at all, but some of them work ok apparently. Most important thing, put it in the fridge. Cooling down slows all chemical reactions, including oxidizing. For the rare occasion I don't polish off the whole bottle, I put a regular stopper or the cork back in. If the wine changes, it's usually at least an interesting change. Although one quite expensive premier cru Burgundy went bad on me after a night in the fridge, I guess Pinot Noir is more delicate. Just for clarification, red wine is okay to put in the fridge after it's been opened? obi_ant fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Dec 10, 2018 |
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Dec 10, 2018 01:46
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obi_ant posted:Just for clarification, red wine is okay to put in the fridge after it's been opened? Won't do it any harm, but it won't do it any good either. Once it's opened air is the degrading factor, not temperature.
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Dec 10, 2018 02:07
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obi_ant posted:I'll take a look. Thanks! Also, with this product would I still need to keep the wine in the fridge? Refrigeration always helps preserve. I’ve found stuff perfectly drinkable in one at room temperature for 24 hours, but I don’t have the most sophisticated palate. Stringent posted:Won't do it any harm, but it won't do it any good either. Once it's opened air is the degrading factor, not temperature. I thought oxidation happened more slowly at lower temperatures.
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Dec 10, 2018 02:08
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Subjunctive posted:I thought oxidation happened more slowly at lower temperatures. Very well might, but I can't tell the difference.
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Dec 10, 2018 02:14
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Get some of those 500ml/250ml bottles with the flip-tops and pour your leftover bottle in there, then stick it in the fridge. Less headspace helps. Let it sit out and come up to temp before you drink the rest. It won't preserve things for forever, but you should be able to enjoy most wines before they fall off. Re: starting to taste wine - I've found that simpler is better for me. Start with figuring out basic elements of structure and with simplified flavor descriptions. What's the acid/alcohol/tannin/astringency like? How do you taste for structure like acid and tannin? Does the wine feel fat or lean? For flavors, are there fruit flavors, are there savory flavors? Does it make you think of dark fruit, red fruit, citrus fruit? Herbal savory, meaty savory, tobacco and leather savory? Then you can start narrowing down - the citrus fruit you smell, is it lemon, lime, grapefruit? Ripe Meyer lemon, puckery lemon peel/zest, creamy lemon curd? Is it different on the palate than the nose? I feel like "classic" florid tasting descriptions can be really intimidating and misleading when you're starting to learn how to taste, and ignoring them by keeping things simple to start can be helpful.
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Dec 10, 2018 05:13
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obi_ant posted:Also on another note, my wife doesn't drink and I don't have many friends that are into wine; they're mostly craft beer drinkers. Is there something better than a stopper in terms of preserving my wine so I can drink it another day? I really don't want to polish off a whole bottle and if I'm comparing two bottles, I might not make it into work the next day. I've seen cans of air that I can spray into the bottle, do those work? Biomute posted:If I wanted to get a book on wine, what should I get? The main contenders seem to be: The Oxford Companion to Wine, The World Atlas of Wine and The Wine Bible.
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Dec 10, 2018 06:25
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How do y'all manage to open a bottle and not drink the whole thing?
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Dec 10, 2018 06:56
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I assume we’re talking about the second bottle.
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Dec 10, 2018 07:00
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Stringent posted:Won't do it any harm, but it won't do it any good either. Once it's opened air is the degrading factor, not temperature. This is very, very, very wrong. They're both important, if you have to rank importance, it's definitely temperature first. Don't gently caress around with any wine storage devices unless you have a ton of old wines you plan on preserving. Any young wine of good quality will keep for at least a day in the fridge, most three or more. The vacuum based ones will prevent oxidation, but they will also pull volatile molecules from the wine, muting some aromas. The argon ones work a little better but I find they also mute aromas as well. The best thing is what idiotsavant suggested. Just get some smaller bottles and pour your wines in there. Screwcaps are great for this. Most wines will keep over a week if there's very little headspace, and really, how much longer do you need?
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Dec 10, 2018 07:19
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