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yeah I audibly went YEAH RIGHT when Boorjans said "we're not gonna knick ein on the Abwrack" a couple days ago and I'm kinda proud, like when the cats started making GBS threads in the box instead of next to it. https://twitter.com/EMMA_Magazin/status/1268534365862137856?s=20 loving LOL Emma, come on. I also parsed the last sentence of that tweet as "Ein Schwarzer hat es selbst erlebt..." and was half-heartedly relieved they at least chose to pick a Black voice but no.
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Jun 4, 2020 14:50
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Zwille posted:anyone else think the MwSt.-Senkung is gonna get the Tamponsteuer treatment? aka prices are just gonna get hiked and the Endnutzer will not get anything out of this whole deal? Don't even need a price hike. VAT rate reduction results in higher profit at same price to end user already.
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Jun 4, 2020 14:50
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How so? (Also how much of that is gonna get eaten up by having to umstell the Buchhaltung, printing new ads etc. etc.?)
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Jun 4, 2020 14:55
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Zwille posted:anyone else think the MwSt.-Senkung is gonna get the Tamponsteuer treatment? aka prices are just gonna get hiked and the Endnutzer will not get anything out of this whole deal? Olaf Scholz literally said he expects, "dass die Wirtschaft sie nicht zu ihrem Vorteil nutze, sondern an die Bürger weitergebe". I.e. the government knows full well that this could happen but they're already promising to not do anything about it. I.e. it's absolutely what's going to happen and they don't care.
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Jun 4, 2020 14:55
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Zwille posted:loving LOL Emma, come on. I also parsed the last sentence of that tweet as "Ein Schwarzer hat es selbst erlebt..." and was half-heartedly relieved they at least chose to pick a Black voice but no.
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Jun 4, 2020 14:55
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Srsly don't see what this is supposed to do. If you spend a thousand Euromark this will save you enough money to go get a mid-market pizza with the wife afterwards, that doesn't really get the juices flowing
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Jun 4, 2020 15:01
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Combat Theory posted:please tell me more about how avoiding discussion and exchange of opinion is helpful in eliminating ethnic segregation in our society OP. There's a lot that could be said on the matter, but let me put it like this. Here's a white cis non-straight dude who talked about BLM in the correct manner. https://twitter.com/VaushV/status/1268046580877148163
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Jun 4, 2020 15:01
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Mithaldu posted:Can you link that? It's going to be impossible to find it again at this point, even the strongest google-fu can't pinpoint it because of the sheer volume of police bullshit happening over there.
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Jun 4, 2020 15:06
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cebrail posted:Olaf Scholz literally said he expects, "dass die Wirtschaft sie nicht zu ihrem Vorteil nutze, sondern an die Bürger weitergebe".
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Jun 4, 2020 15:08
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Wipfmetz posted:Yup, yup. Not using things to their profit is what economists are known for. Let's just hope that this Scholz guy will never get into any steering position where he'd have to predict people and their motivations. Oh my god, your AV just gave me a massive flashback. Christ, I spent so much time playing Clonk. I recall having my dad literally mail money to the developer for a registration code to unlock what I think was a shareware/freeware version on a PC Gamer Zeitschrift. Man, I'm gonna look up that game again now.
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Jun 4, 2020 15:16
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Randler posted:Don't even need a price hike. VAT rate reduction results in higher profit at same price to end user already. Yeah. I read that a similar measure in the UK during the GFC led to consumer price drops of 75% of products and I have absolutely no idea how that happened. Most product prices are rounded, so are the t-shirts gonna cost 9.70 EUr instead of 10 now? I mean, I can see how price drops might happen on certain products, but 75% of all products? That seems like number fudging. Zwille posted:Also: 300€ per kid. lol Kinderbarone 
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Jun 4, 2020 15:20
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GABA ghoul posted:Yeah. I read that a similar measure in the UK during the GFC led to consumer price drops of 75% of products and I have absolutely no idea how that happened. Most product prices are rounded, so are the t-shirts gonna cost 9.70 EUr instead of 10 now? I mean, I can see how price drops might happen on certain products, but 75% of all products? That seems like number fudging. Are you talking about the UK "tampon tax"? Because that is a special case due to grandfathered zero rates (which are different from VAT exemptions).
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Jun 4, 2020 15:23
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Combat Theory posted:I think that last part is really not that helpful. People are qualified to comment on social matters regardless of their ethnic and social background because we all share this society and this planet. Nah, I'm good. I agree with your point though that it is important to keep the dialogue going, but I am not in one. I am pretty sure most, if not all people, in this thread can agree on racism being bad even without my input. My Lovely Horse posted:as a cis white middle aged middle class male I will not comment on this but more importantly I want you all to know that I will not comment on it and validate that I know when not to comment on things 
Tarquinn fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Jun 4, 2020 |
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Jun 4, 2020 15:41
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Randler posted:Are you talking about the UK "tampon tax"? Because that is a special case due to grandfathered zero rates (which are different from VAT exemptions). UK temporarily reduced their VAT in 2008. That 75% figure is from some Spiegel article I read on the toilet this morning but I can't find it cause I'm supposed to be working right now(lol)
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Jun 4, 2020 15:44
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My limited understanding of VAT is that it's a highly regressive tax by design, and basically exists because, in the most generous possible interpretation of the motivations underpinning it, the government decided that it was too costly/difficult to tax the wealthy and in order to keep afloat it went after an easy target that couldn't defend itself: the lower and middle class. The classic example is that the wealthy are not buying a proportionate amount of milk to their wealth as the poor are, for whom any increased cost represents an often crippling hit to their take home pay. Which, even assuming the best of motivations, means that any VAT on things that the lower classes ever buy, like milk (even 7%), is an inexcusable punishment for the crime of being alive and not being rich enough to reduce your tax footprint via legal means that are only accessible to the wealthy. Is there any argument for VAT that doesn't hinge upon the idea that "it's not desirable or feasible to tax profit"?
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Jun 4, 2020 16:08
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Sulla Faex posted:My limited understanding of VAT is that it's a highly regressive tax by design, and basically exists because, in the most generous possible interpretation of the motivations underpinning it, the government decided that it was too costly/difficult to tax the wealthy and in order to keep afloat it went after an easy target that couldn't defend itself: the lower and middle class. The classic example is that the wealthy are not buying a proportionate amount of milk to their wealth as the poor are, for whom any increased cost represents an often crippling hit to their take home pay. Which, even assuming the best of motivations, means that any VAT on things that the lower classes ever buy, like milk (even 7%), is an inexcusable punishment for the crime of being alive and not being rich enough to reduce your tax footprint via legal means that are only accessible to the wealthy. Not an expert (tax or otherwise) but how else are you gonna tax the production of goods and services if not at the point of sale/consumption? Can't use business/corporate taxes cause they only apply to profits, not revenue. You could make an argument that the production of goods and services shouldn't be taxes at all or that certain goods should be exempt though.
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Jun 4, 2020 17:05
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Sulla Faex posted:
There‘s the opinion that there ain‘t such a thing as direct taxes as they end up being part of the price of the final product in many cases. Also, households with a low income (~ less than 3k a month, I think) are Nettotransferempfänger anyway, so a VAT mainly reduces the Kaufkraft of their Transferleistung and it essentially becomes linke Tasche, rechte Tasche. If you have a look at „the whale in the tub“ graph you also should be able to understand my furious anger wrt Beamte not pulling their weight when it comes to contributing to society. https://www.diw.de/de/diw_01.c.559193.de/nachrichten/senkt_die_mehrwertsteuer.html Einbauschrank fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Jun 4, 2020 |
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Jun 4, 2020 17:08
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Perestroika posted:Yeah, somehow I'm not confident that prices are gonna change meaningfully. I'm sure the usual suspects will verzeich a solid 2% extra profit that quarter, though. Ya, maybe on more expensive goods, but in supermarkets? It will now cost 0.97 instead of 0.99? No way short of them saying they'll reduce it at the till.
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Jun 4, 2020 17:43
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Can I interest you in a quaint little story about how much AfD and FDP suck? So, the Zecken that form the Berlin Senat have used the corona crisis to create a number of so called Pop-up-Radwege throughout the city. Basically they reorganised some widely used roads to drastically increase the space for cyclists, using yellow street markings, like this:  Cool and good, right? Well, most agree, but of course the AfD and FDP are now crying that it's not fair to motorists. quote:Berlins Opposition stellt sich gegen Pop-up-Radwege https://www.morgenpost.de/berlin/article229249332/Berlins-Opposition-stellt-sich-gegen-Pop-up-Radwege.html lol.
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Jun 4, 2020 17:45
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„Es ist untragbar, dass Kraftfahrern durch politische Willkür die Nutzung von Straßen verwehrt wird.“
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Zwille posted:How so? Umsatzsteuer ist ein Kostenfaktor bzw. eine Betriebsausgabe für den Unternehmer der die Umsätze ausführt. Beispiel: (Mit Umsatzsteuersatz von 20 %) Ich bin Obsthändler und kaufe von meinem Lieferanten im Mai 20 Melonen. Mein Lieferant stellt mir die folgende Rechnung aus: code:Jetzt verkaufe ich die Melonen an meine Kunden. Auf dem Wochenmarkt kann ich meine Melonen zu einem Stückpreis von 200 EUR an den Mann bringen. Jede Melone die ich verkaufe ist umsatzsteuerlich eine Lieferung, für welche ich an das Finanzamt Umsatzsteuer abführen muss. Die Umsatzsteuer ist 20 % der Bemessungsgrundlage. Bemessungsgrundlage ist der Verkaufspreis (200 EUR) abzüglich der darin enthaltenen Umsatzsteuer. Somit ist die geschuldete Umsatzsteuer für die Lieferung einer Melonde (200 EUR / 1,20 * 20 % = 33 EUR). Ich kriege also von meinen Kunden für eine Melone 200 EUR, muss davon aber 33 EUR an das Finanzamt abführen. Somit habe ich insgesamt nur 167 EUR aus dem Verkauf der Melone erlöst. Wenn die Umsatzsteuer jetzt zum Zeitpunkt des Verkaufs nur noch 10 % beträgt, dann erhalte ich von meinem Kunden immer noch 200 EUR. Ich muss davon aber nur noch (200 EUR / 1,10 * 10 % = 18 EUR) an das Finanzamt abführen. Somit erlöse ich aus der Veräußerung der Melone nunmehr statt 167 EUR auf einmal 182 EUR, obwohl der Endpreis für den Verbraucher gleich geblieben ist.
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Jun 4, 2020 17:50
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Sulla Faex posted:My limited understanding of VAT is that it's a highly regressive tax by design, and basically exists because, in the most generous possible interpretation of the motivations underpinning it, the government decided that it was too costly/difficult to tax the wealthy and in order to keep afloat it went after an easy target that couldn't defend itself: the lower and middle class. The classic example is that the wealthy are not buying a proportionate amount of milk to their wealth as the poor are, for whom any increased cost represents an often crippling hit to their take home pay. Which, even assuming the best of motivations, means that any VAT on things that the lower classes ever buy, like milk (even 7%), is an inexcusable punishment for the crime of being alive and not being rich enough to reduce your tax footprint via legal means that are only accessible to the wealthy. Are you familiar with Adam Smith's work on the principles of taxation? The thing to understand about taxation, incidentally a thing many people do not understand about taxation, is that the main function of taxes is to rise revenue of the state. The state wants revenue. That is its main objective. The state wants to get as much revenue as it can as easy as it can. Therefore, the state wants to tax things which indicate that there are is money to get. In professional circles this is also referred to as the "You're huge, so you have huge guts of tax." paradigm or "Anzeichen der Leistungsfähigkeit". If somebody purchases goods or services, i.e. "They are huge", we can infer that they have money to spend, i.e. "So they have huge guts of tax." As such, the tax sees an easy target to successfully "rip and tax". For direct taxes (e.g. income tax), the "huge guts" are e.g. somebody getting paid a salary which is subsequently ripped and taxed. All other aspects, like convenience, fairness and proportionality are secondary concerns. The main driver for designing tax systems is to find the huge guy, and then rip and tax his huge guts. === One of the main stumbling blocks for wealth taxation (e.g. Vermögenssteuer) in this context is that while the guy is undoubtably huge, it is very difficult to assess exactly how much taxable guts there are in that huge guy, e.g. wie viel das Vermögen wert ist. And the difficulty in evaluating those guts (Bewertung) actually would mean you have to put a lot of money in paying the professional guts valuation guy (Finanzbeamte) before you can actually get to the ripping of the guts. Wealth taxation would still result in a net plus of guts being ripped, though, but the "Bewertung von Vermögenssteuern ist zu schwer, deshalb machen wir keine Vermögenssteuern" argument is not solely based on the legislative having been subverted by fatcat demons who do not want their guts ripped and taxed. Randler fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Jun 4, 2020 |
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Jun 4, 2020 18:05
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Randler posted:Umsatzsteuer ist ein Kostenfaktor bzw. eine Betriebsausgabe für den Unternehmer der die Umsätze ausführt. I have a Diplom in maths and this stuff is breaking my brain. If Umsatzsteuer is 20% and I sell my melons for 200, why do I have to pay 33€ and not 200*0.2€ = 40€ in this example. Can you explain it to me like I'm American?
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Jun 4, 2020 18:07
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KonvexKonkav posted:I have a Diplom in maths and this stuff is breaking my brain. If Umsatzsteuer is 20% and I sell my melons for 200, why do I have to pay 33€ and not 200*0.2€ = 40€ in this example. Can you explain it to me like I'm American? Because VAT is calculated as [VAT rate]*[tax base]. And [tax base] is defined as "Everything the supplier of the goods or services receives from the customer in exchange for the goods or services, but excluding the VAT amount contained therein", cf. Sec. 10 Umsatzsteuergesetz. The reason for this somewhat involved way of calculating VAT lies in certain edge cases where people make pricing errors, but they are specific enough that I forget them after I read them all the time. It made sense to do it that way, though. IIRC it effectively works as a safeguard that the state is always entitled to the legally correct amount of VAT even if the supplier and the customers gently caress up their application of the proper VAT rate big time.
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Jun 4, 2020 18:13
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Oof, thanks for the write up. So basically an €100 netto good is “worth” €119 in income tax terms because this is calculated on brutto terms, so you pay taxes based on that. If mwst gets sunk to 17%, it’s €117 what’s taxed. That about it?
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Jun 4, 2020 18:17
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Duzzy Funlop posted:Christ, I spent so much time playing Clonk. I recall having my dad literally mail money to the developer for a registration code  I still have the reg file for Clonk Endeavour. It has a timestamp from '04.
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Jun 4, 2020 18:25
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clonk solidarity
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Jun 4, 2020 18:31
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Zwille posted:Oof, thanks for the write up. So basically an €100 netto good is “worth” €119 in income tax terms because this is calculated on brutto terms, so you pay taxes based on that. If mwst gets sunk to 17%, it’s €117 what’s taxed. That about it? Nein, für Zwecke der Einkommensteuer kommt es darauf an, was Du tatsächlich von deinem Kunden erhälst. Die Umsatzsteuer, die du daraus an das Finanzamt abführen musst ist aber eine gegenläufige Betriebsausgabe. code:
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Jun 4, 2020 18:34
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Okay, still don’t quite get it, because shouldn’t the Umsatzsteuer... ah gently caress it, I give up.
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Jun 4, 2020 18:38
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Zwille posted:Okay, still don’t quite get it, because shouldn’t the Umsatzsteuer... ah gently caress it, I give up. Warte doch wenigstens ab, bis wir zu der Unterscheidung von steuerbaren, steuerbaren aber steuerfreien und steuerbaren und nicht steuerfreien aber mit 0 % zu besteuernden Umsätzen gelangen. 
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Jun 4, 2020 18:41
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Maybe those FDP people with their "taxes on a Bierdeckel" are onto something after all 
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Jun 4, 2020 18:51
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Randler posted:Warte doch wenigstens ab, bis wir zu der Unterscheidung von steuerbaren, steuerbaren aber steuerfreien und steuerbaren und nicht steuerfreien aber mit 0 % zu besteuernden Umsätzen gelangen. 
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Jun 4, 2020 18:57
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Sereri posted:Maybe those FDP people with their "taxes on a Bierdeckel" are onto something after all I know you're joking but please think of
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Jun 4, 2020 18:58
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Antigravitas posted:
I was stoked to see that there was apparently a crowd-developed project called OpenClonk, and installed it right away, but a) it immediately crashed my 4k display, b) requires some finaglery to run in 1920x1080 on my machine, and c) doesn't have the "clonky" feel I remember. Gonna have to see if there are any playable Clonk Endeavour versions that'll run on a modern systems. I don't think I played Clonk Rage ever.
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Jun 4, 2020 19:05
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Germany Discussion: Rip and Tax
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Jun 4, 2020 19:16
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Antigravitas posted:
Talking about tax: I've been using the Elster Desktop app for my taxes up until now. Unfortunately, it's getting phased out. Any advise? I'm just a good, honest employee without any strange income like "from landwirtschaft" without any really deep knowledge of taxes, but I can and do read promts and explanations displayed to me over the course of my taxdoing. Wipfmetz fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Jun 4, 2020 |
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Jun 4, 2020 19:49
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Wipfmetz posted:I lost my regfiles for anything but Rage. Because it was the dark times before Keepass for me. If Elster was OK and you're fine with doing your taxes online simply use "Mein Elster" --> elster.de There are also apps but I haven't tried these. I'm using Buhl Tax because ... I dunno. 12,95€ a year, tax deductable seemed like I couldn't do much wrong. I guess they are all pretty much the same. I used to be self-employed, so I enjoy haggling with a faceless Behördenscherge over a Steckdosenleiste and Verpflegungsmehraufwand. YMMV.
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Jun 4, 2020 20:20
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No advice, but I'm also annoyed that they are getting rid of a perfectly viable system and replacing it with something worse.
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Jun 4, 2020 20:20
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Randler posted:Because VAT is calculated as [VAT rate]*[tax base]. And [tax base] is defined as "Everything the supplier of the goods or services receives from the customer in exchange for the goods or services, but excluding the VAT amount contained therein", cf. Sec. 10 Umsatzsteuergesetz. The reason for this somewhat involved way of calculating VAT lies in certain edge cases where people make pricing errors, but they are specific enough that I forget them after I read them all the time. It made sense to do it that way, though. IIRC it effectively works as a safeguard that the state is always entitled to the legally correct amount of VAT even if the supplier and the customers gently caress up their application of the proper VAT rate big time. Thanks op, your explanation really helped. However, having actually taken a look into the Umsatzsteuergesetz after my last post, I think it's formulated in the most confusing way possible. Like in §10 Bemessungsgrundlage is defined like you said "abzüglich der enthaltenen Umsatzssteuer" etc. but what is Umsatzsteuer? This is defined in §12 as quote:Die Steuer beträgt für jeden steuerpflichtigen Umsatz 19 Prozent der Bemessungsgrundlage. I wonder why you couldn't simply define the full price (without VAT subtracted) as Bemessungsgrundlage and then set the Steuersatz to 19%/1.19 which is about 16%. That should give the same results in the end and would be much less confusing IMO.
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Jun 4, 2020 20:34
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In somewhat related news: I have been working alongside the öffentlicher Dienst all my work life, either as a self-employed consultant or as an goon-employée. When I had an exchange with my Öffi Partners this week I wasn't too surprised to hear that in more than one instance whole divisions haven't been working since the mid of March. They haven't heard from some Mitarbeiters during the last six weeks and no one bothered lighting a fire under their arse as the bosses also liked to slack off while it's socially acceptable. I am still trying to figure out what a "Führungskraft" does in these divisions. I guess some hobby cellar saw some heavy activity during that time. They all could have used the break to kritisch hinterfrag their Ablaufs (which is part of my job) but that would have meant  Anyway, that's why I fight the finanzamt for every cent.
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Jun 4, 2020 20:37
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Einbauschrank posted:There are also apps but I haven't tried these. I'm using Buhl Tax because ... I dunno. 12,95€ a year, tax deductable seemed like I couldn't do much wrong. I guess they are all pretty much the same. I used to be self-employed, so I enjoy haggling with a faceless Behördenscherge over a Steckdosenleiste and Verpflegungsmehraufwand. YMMV. Is Buhl the same as WISO? Because I'm pretty sure WISO is developed by Buhl or something but WISO runs me about 30€ a pop.
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Jun 4, 2020 20:39
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