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Gold and a Pager posted:How many Lehramt diplom students did you meet? Maybe you just happened to meet some really poo poo people who happened to study Lehramt, but that's not a quality that is limited to just one subject. About 80-90% of the students attending any of my BA classes were M.Ed. students (building eagerly towards the next Lehrerschwemme), and I worked on group projects with ~30 of them. Familiarity breeds contempt.
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Oct 2, 2011 22:59
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Deceitful Penguin posted:Holy poo poo. I had no idea you had this kind of insanity going on. I was going to make a post about how at least you guys aren't like the Japanese who try to trivialize their actions in WW2 but it seems you're more like them than I thought.  Not saying those aren't valid points, but they have nothing to do with trivializing any actions in WW2 unless you can explain to me that due to lessons from World War II there ought to be women in the military. DerDestroyer posted:Adolph Hitler Previously on GBS posted:All this Germany-bashing is very very German. How German of you. German.
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Oct 2, 2011 23:21
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Plankalkuel posted:You didn't answer my question. Is that a comparison between the best Finnish and the best German students, or between all Finnish students and the best German students. In the later case that wouldn't really surprise me. How about some sources for that? It is the latter case, and I found it surprising. Sure, on average, German students fare far worse than Finnish students, but I maintain that the German school system, if your premise is the early child-education as it is, is working extremely well. The problems that arise are all due to the nature of the education of the young child before he attends fifth grade. I am saying that the selection with regards to skill is working surprisingly well (but not perfectly), but that selection with regards to social standing is not acceptable, of course.
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Oct 2, 2011 23:52
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flavor posted:With you, everything a German or ex-German does is very very very German. Defending Germany? German. Bashing Germany? German. Not hating myself for leaving? German. Wow, my comment must have hit home. Are you the same guy who got his panties in a twist when I said most Germans who emigrate to the US because they think it's a great country are from East Germany?
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Oct 2, 2011 23:55
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DerDestroyer posted:It's not like Adolph Hitler Jr. is going to mysteriously disappear at night and get driven away in a black van never to return again. Yeah, I'm not arguing practicalities - and certainly not from an American perspective, being Norwegian myself. I'm just pointing out that both the Stasi and Gestapo were, in essence, secret police for "investigating people that might be a danger to society due to ideological conflicts with the constitution". It's a way of repressing those whose societal views fundamentally do not align with those in power, and presumably the majority, and in that sense it's very much a paralell to the Gestapo/Stasi institutions. Obviously a state as large and diverse as the German one will need something to violently enforce ideological homogenity, but pretending that it isn't in essence very similar to the more authoritarian variants is just disrespectful to the neonazis that're being constantly monitored for signs of illegal activities.
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Oct 3, 2011 00:08
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It's not really about people whose views do not align with those of the constitution, but about people who are actively hostile to the constitution and want to get rid of it. That's a big difference.
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Oct 3, 2011 00:15
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Previously on GBS posted:Bashing Germany -> German. Bashing Germany and sucking up to other countries -> more German. The other stuff you're trying to put in my mouth -> poo poo you just made up. Seriously, what's annoying about your gimmick is that you'll probably always feel it's right when it's just the old "you're angry" transposed to a different subject. (Whenever somebody defends themselves against allegations of being angry, the answer is "See? You're just angry!". If they don't defend themselves, they "agree".) And what's "German" anyway? As has been pointed out here, there are several very different sections of society that exist in parallel in Germany. I'd rather discuss things on their merits than based on some arbitrary notion of them being "German" or not. It doesn't bother me so much that you call people "German", but more that you think it means something very specific.
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Oct 3, 2011 00:42
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flavor posted:No, I'm not that person and I never saw you saying that but you must have an odd, almost German fascination with what Germans think of Germany. As a German who has lived in about 15 different cities and who has spent most of her adult life living abroad -- I definitely do. flavor posted:I'd rather discuss things on their merits than based on some arbitrary notion of them being "German" or not. Fair enough, let's move on.
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Oct 3, 2011 00:58
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Orange Devil posted:In the Netherlands we also don't have video or audio recordings of police interrogations, and on top of that you don't even have the right of a lawyer being present, as far as I know. It's backwards as hell but it's also tradition and very convenient for the police, so it's very hard to change. It's no surprise that in many high profile murder cases of the last decades, the police has ended up getting tunnelvision and hounding the wrong suspect for years. This must be some kind of weird northern-continental Europe thing or something. I wonder how Belgium and Denmark do these things. Orange Devil posted:I don't really see what any of the examples DeusEx gave have to do with WW2 though. I find that the younger generations of Germans are really good about WW2, and the older the German the higher the chance gets of them still holding some pretty reprehensible views. I don't think that's unique to Germany though. Although there's a shocking amount of hate for Turks sometimes. The most shocking to me was when we needed an emergency dentist and went to a hospital that had some, and there was a lot of people waiting and all the dentists were very busy, except for one Turkish woman. People would rather suffer dental pain than be treated by her I guess. There was a good chance she was going to lose that job, and it was a pretty drat sad situation. We've also seen some casual racism in stores from middle aged or old Germans, and our elderly neigbhour with his bloodgroup tattood on his arm is about as racist as you'd expect, but the younger generations are again much better. poo poo, I remember them bringing it up to the head of the local AFS chapter and he told us that the reason we didn't see more Turks in Gymnasium was because they didn't speak German, and that somehow this was their fault and not an indicator there was something really wrong with things there in Germany. flavor posted:Yeah, that absolutely follows from someone pointing that there are government agencies trying to protect the country, that there is no video of people being interrogated and that women were late to be accepted to the military.  Well, I was hoping not having to go too off-topic talking about Japan, but all that poo poo he talked about are things that are in Japan, only pretty much worse. Japanese Justice is a huge laugh, if you know Phoenix Wright, it is an accurate description of the Japanese justice system, for a obviously dramatized video game. One of the huge loving problems is the problem of forced confessions. This is why the not recording interrogations is so huge. Without this, the police are free to do anything that doesn't leave visible marks and even then, they sometimes do. And not having identity numbers on the cops is just idiotic. What it means is there is no accountability. You see that, surely. Intelligence agencies in general give me the creeps. For the longest time Iceland didn't have one, but at least I've met the guy and he seemed ok, for a spook. All this wiretapping poo poo reminds me of the Cold War, when communists were wiretapped and discriminated against. Actually, what I was going to say originally is that, considering WW2 at least, you are doing a hell of a lot better than the other participants. History books of the allies rarely mention the American Internment camps of Japanese-Americans or the Fire Bombing of Dresden, while on the Axis side the Japanese try and cast themselves as victims because of the atomic bombings. Consider poo poo like the textbook controversies and the fact that they did things just as bad if not worse than the Nazis, them trying to make light of it is loving sick. So, kudos for that at least. I remember being really really drunk and telling jokes and trying to remember ones in English and ending on a Jew joke and they were really worried about whether I was a racist or a Nazi, because they were aware that there were still people like that left in Germany and that they were a problem.
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Oct 3, 2011 05:13
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Deceitful Penguin posted:Well, I was hoping not having to go too off-topic talking about Japan, but all that poo poo he talked about are things that are in Japan, only pretty much worse. Deceitful Penguin posted:And not having identity numbers on the cops is just idiotic. What it means is there is no accountability. You see that, surely. This is not to say they're perfect, but they're generally not as bad as James Bond villain henchmen. Again, I fully support recordings and numbers on uniforms. Deceitful Penguin posted:Intelligence agencies in general give me the creeps. For the longest time Iceland didn't have one, but at least I've met the guy and he seemed ok, for a spook. Deceitful Penguin posted:Actually, what I was going to say originally is that, considering WW2 at least, you are doing a hell of a lot better than the other participants. History books of the allies rarely mention the American Internment camps of Japanese-Americans or the Fire Bombing of Dresden, while on the Axis side the Japanese try and cast themselves as victims because of the atomic bombings. Consider poo poo like the textbook controversies and the fact that they did things just as bad if not worse than the Nazis, them trying to make light of it is loving sick. My main point is that Germany is now one of the better behaved countries when it comes to human rights and related issues. The mere fact that it does some things that aren't perfect and that other countries around it are also doing doesn't mean that Germany hasn't learned anything.
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Oct 3, 2011 06:11
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Previously on GBS posted:I never said that this was not the case. However, there is no indication that getting rid to tracking in the way to go and in fact I don't believe that it is. There is pretty much indication that the tracking system is horribly ineffective (see: reality) but I guess we could argue about that ad infinitum. Instead why don't you tell us what you think would be effective reforms and how those would establish the fabled equality of opportunity. Also I think this is relevant to the discussion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUiAu8Dozgc&feature=related (for non-Germans: It's a short snippet about the Hamburg school-reform vote, the anti-reform initiative, spoken about earlier here, it's from a renowned ARD programme that routinely reports about scandalous stuff going on in the country.) I dare you to watch that and then continue to seriously claim that defending the three tiered system is anything but classism. My personal favourites from that snippet: -Middle/Upper class man in brown coat: "A working class child playing in the afternoon with the child of a chairman of the board and somehow benefitting from that, now that may work in rare cases, but in general I believe it doesn't!" -Famous German actor speaking at a rally in support of the initiative: "And I, ladies and gentlemen, deny those politicians the right to decide about MY children!" (applause) -Narration: "The speakers of the initiative are lawyers, financiers are hamburg businessmen, supporters are dukes and other nobles." Cue initiative head speaker (a lawyer) saying: "In no way are we an elitist initiative, quite the contrary: Our people are parents, grandparents, teachers, headmasters, really people from all walks of life!" -Upper class female activist, wearing an expensive fur coat: "Since the 80ies there has been the breeding(she actually uses the word that means breeding animals) of an academic proletariat(commoners getting university degress, the horror!) that is simply unfit for scientific and higher acadameic careers!(unfit meaning they probably harbour leftist thoughts)" -the initiative hiring "promoters" and paying them 1€ per acquired signature -the initiative denouncing some ridiculously harmless pro-reform group for using the superman logo on their owl-mascot, leading to a charge of 150000 loving Euros. Initiative speaker's comment as told by narration: "It's a completely normal process to inform the law of such copyright violations!" -the initiative sending five officials of the school authority CV like letters with their past outlined in surprising detail (meaning: "We know everything about you!", this is completely unheard of mafia-like poo poo) StrangeRobot fucked around with this message at 10:53 on Oct 3, 2011 |
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Oct 3, 2011 10:31
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Sorry for being a bit late with this reply.Condiv posted:How difficult is it to enter a german masters program from abroad? I'm a CS major with a decent (3.3) University GPA and a lackluster cumulative gpa (2.8). I'm going to germany for a semester as a transfer student this spring, and I'm going to minor in german. I was pretty much exactly in the same boat as you when I was applying around but instead of CS I am IS. I got accepted to 50% of the Universities I officially applied for. The trick is finding Universities where the entire Masters program is in English (unless your German is good enough). That right there knocks out a very large portion of Universities, however, you should not have much of a problem getting into most Universities. I am not sure about Paderborn specifically but I got into my dream University (Münster) without too much trouble. EDIT: My class that started in the Summer semester is about 60% German and the rest foreign nationals. Also, I completely forgot that the Winter Semester (which has officially begun today) and next Summer semester will have a huge influx of new applicants as some laws have changed. Such as the compulsory entrance into the Bundeswehr for every graduating high school male as well as I have heard that high school ends a year earlier now or something. So you will have higher competition from Germans but that should even out come next winter semester. Previously on GBS posted:In which ways is it better? And which university did you attend in the US? I did not go to a prestigious University but we did have one of the better Business schools in the country (Top 100 or something) and our sister school has gone to March Madness every few years (losing every time in the first round except one year). Also, the major city I was near was really nothing special. Maybe it is all rose-tinted glasses here? They really just treat students very well here. First and foremost is the cost of going to school. My first semester was just under 500€ for the semester. This includes what is called a "Semester Ticket" which allows me free admission to all public transportation and trains within the great state of North Rhein Westfalia. This semester they dropped the "Studienbeitrag" (Tuition fees) and now the cost for a semester is only 207€. Basically, the cost of the entire Masters program in Germany is less than one semester in the States (depending on where you go and if you get a scholarship or something). It is also fairly cheap to get health insurance coverage here as a student since you can buy into the "public option" for about 70€ a month. Beyond that, any non-necessary doctors or dentist visit is 10€ (If the dentist does not require any work then you don't even have to pay the 10€) Münster also has multiple University-Style cafeterias littered across the city that are even open to the public (but the food is cheaper if you are a student). Also, studying in Germany is better because its an education that is just as good (actually even better because it has actually gotten me to study and has challenged me as a student than in the States) while in English and in a foreign country. It looks far more exceptional on your resume than a majority of Universities in the States. hankor posted:I was being serious. gently caress THOSE GODDAMN KIDS! 
DrewkroDleman fucked around with this message at 11:24 on Oct 3, 2011 |
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Oct 3, 2011 11:09
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Condiv posted:Will it be really difficult to be accepted to a university such as Paderborn? I can't tell you much about the university, I studied elsewhere, but I'm from Paderborn and can tell you a bit about the city if you have questions. The one thing I can tell you though is that the university is at capacity. With the high influx of students due to the end of conscription and the change to a 12 year abitur lectures are held in old furniture stores and I think last year even in tents.
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Oct 3, 2011 11:46
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KingaSlipek posted:It is the latter case, and I found it surprising. Sure, on average, German students fare far worse than Finnish students, but I maintain that the German school system, if your premise is the early child-education as it is, is working extremely well. The problems that arise are all due to the nature of the education of the young child before he attends fifth grade. Sources? And what are you on about with the bold part? How are the years of integrated school loving the children up worse, then the segregated rest? KingaSlipek posted:I am saying that the selection with regards to skill is working surprisingly well (but not perfectly), but that selection with regards to social standing is not acceptable, of course. There are no two selection processes at work here! There is only one, and that's supposed to be about skill and potential. Since it clearly isn't for a large part, it's broken!
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Oct 3, 2011 14:17
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Plankalkuel posted:Sources? And what are you on about with the bold part? How are the years of integrated school loving the children up worse, then the segregated rest? Why are you asking for sources now, when, according to you, it wouldn't surprise you? Everyone here is implicitly referring to the most recent source, namely the most recent PISA. Just read that more thoroughly and you see that Gymnasium students outperform the average Finnish and Korean student. It's not a big conspiracy secret, promise! I have done the PISA actually, and as far as I remember, and I am sure one can check for them, it is being assessed how students go about solving problems effectively, do at comprehensive reading, and perform mathematical tasks that have practical relevance. The test is in parts a bit of an IQ test, and I don't think that anything after fourth grade is crucial in bringing about these skills in students. What happens is that those are strengthened or weakened, but the PISA doesn't really test for that. Yes, there is one selection process, and that should be about skill and that works, but as you, not I, claim that process is also about social standing. And it clearly is working (although not perfectly, but no one claims that that's possible) most of the time, because, for the hundredth time, the top third of a German class constitute the top of the world. It's amazing and puzzling to me how this can't get into your head.
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Oct 3, 2011 15:08
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KingaSlipek posted:
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Oct 3, 2011 15:11
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niethan posted:Well if you have the top third "smartest" german kids going against all finnish kids, cause the finns aren't segregated at school, then it's not really fair is it? Mind the context. And that is the selection process and the question whether it works. Of course, the top third of Finnish and Korean students probably outperform Gymnasium students, though I can't be sure.
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Oct 3, 2011 15:34
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KingaSlipek posted:Mind the context. And that is the selection process and the question whether it works. Of course, the top third of Finnish and Korean students probably outperform Gymnasium students, though I can't be sure. Then why don't you compare the top third of German, Finnish, and Korean students to each other, the median third to the median third, etc. Then you would have a clearer idea of how well your segregated school system is serving all your students.
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Oct 3, 2011 16:18
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KingaSlipek posted:Why are you asking for sources now, when, according to you, it wouldn't surprise you? Everyone here is implicitly referring to the most recent source, namely the most recent PISA. Just read that more thoroughly and you see that Gymnasium students outperform the average Finnish and Korean student. It's not a big conspiracy secret, promise! Well I asked you, if the German Gymnasium students were significantly better, then the equivalent ratio of Finnish students. It may be a misunderstanding, but I thought, that you said that was the case. For that I would like sources. I don't need sources, to know, that the top tier of a segregated school system performs better, then the average of a integrated system. KingaSlipek posted:I have done the PISA actually, and as far as I remember, and I am sure one can check for them, it is being assessed how students go about solving problems effectively, do at comprehensive reading, and perform mathematical tasks that have practical relevance. The test is in parts a bit of an IQ test, and I don't think that anything after fourth grade is crucial in bringing about these skills in students. What happens is that those are strengthened or weakened, but the PISA doesn't really test for that. I have no problem getting that in my head. Germany is still under performing in areas like social mobility and there is still a strong correlation between the education of the parents and the education of their children in comparison to other countries. The reason for that is, that the selection process doesn't work as advertised. Otherwise you would see the similar social mobility figures as in other countries. The justification for the existence of the process is, that everybody gets the best education for his academic capabilities. If that would be the case, Germany should be a paragon of social mobility, or better educational mobility. Since Germany is far from that, the process is deeply flawed. How unjust and mean is it, to deny a child a better and more fulfilling career because of it's social background? Nobody thinks about that, when they are so very sorry for the smart kids from rich and educated families, who would have to deal with not so great children. So frankly I don't give poo poo if our best 30% are in average better then the mean of 100% from another country. Show me that our top 30% are better, then their top 30%, that would actually be meaningful. Otherwise it's not even "gently caress you, got mine!", but just bad statistics. Edit: So I see, it's bad statistics indeed 
Plankalkuel fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Oct 3, 2011 |
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Oct 3, 2011 16:27
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hankor posted:DeusEx appears to me like a rather stereotypical left-wing brat (I'm sure he'd prefer the term Antideuscher) that enjoys all the freedom this country offers him while getting his panties in a bunch whenever he realizes that he's not living in an anarchist utopia. Nice ad hominem here, buddy. Let me clarify of my point of view: No I don't think that we live in Germany in insufferable proto facist state, no I don't feel hunted by the Verfassungsschutz, sympathize with child murderers, believe the police are all torturers, or think women have suffered Taliban like suppression, because they have been denied access to the armed forces for the longest time. But I do think, that these are valid criticisms, that shouldn't be swept away as mere insignificant peculiarities of an otherwise almost flawless democracy. We aren't a perfect society, as is no other nation on this planet, but there is a tendency in German politics to paint us as such, especially in terms of human rights, dealing with the dark sides of ones nations past, and economic policy. All I say is, that reflecting upon our own shortcomings, we should be a little more humble and careful, when we pass judgments on other societies. Also when you read the other D&D threads, you see American Goons bashing the United States, Canadians voicing concern about the way their country is headed, Brits making fun of the UK, and Australians decrying the backwardness of their big Island of the coast of Antarctica. Now that we have our own German thread, it would be awkward and boring, if we Germans would just high five us on the greatness of our nation. There's already too much of this happening in the public discourse, by the general media and the political establishment, especially in recent times with the Euro-Debt crisis. DeusEx fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Oct 3, 2011 |
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Oct 3, 2011 16:52
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StrangeRobot posted:There is pretty much indication that the tracking system is horribly ineffective (see: reality) but I guess we could argue about that ad infinitum. Instead why don't you tell us what you think would be effective reforms and how those would establish the fabled equality of opportunity. The solution? At the very least parents should have to consult with external counselors before making the decision. I can imagine that that would help especially with getting the children of less educated parents to gymnasium, but maybe parents just aren't fit to make that decision, even with support. StrangeRobot posted:I dare you to watch that and then continue to seriously claim that defending the three tiered system is anything but classism. Dude, you care way too much about some assholes on TV. The fact that they like the system does not mean that the only reasons to defend it are motivated by classism. I can't help but feel some schadenfreude about the fact that Hamburg's educational systems is one of the worst in the country and all those people's precious little darlings are probably outperformed by most Bavarian hauptschülers. EDIT: Plankalkuel posted:Germany is still under performing in areas like social mobility and there is still a strong correlation between the education of the parents and the education of their children in comparison to other countries. Germany is pretty firmly in the middle in terms of social mobility actually. Not great, but better than many other countries (Italy, Spain, USA, UK). Plankalkuel posted:The justification for the existence of the process is, that everybody gets the best education for his academic capabilities. If that would be the case, Germany should be a paragon of social mobility, or better educational mobility. Plankalkuel posted:How unjust and mean is it, to deny a child a better and more fulfilling career because of it's social background? DrewkroDleman posted:It is also fairly cheap to get health insurance coverage here as a student since you can buy into the "public option" for about 70€ a month. Beyond that, any non-necessary doctors or dentist visit is 10€ (If the dentist does not require any work then you don't even have to pay the 10€) It's really good to hear positive things about the German university system from an American, I currently live in the US and find it shocking how you socially unjust the whole university system here is and how many people seem to think that that is just the way things should be. Previously on GBS fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Oct 3, 2011 |
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Oct 3, 2011 17:14
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StrangeRobot posted:There is pretty much indication that the tracking system is horribly ineffective (see: reality) but I guess we could argue about that ad infinitum. Instead why don't you tell us what you think would be effective reforms and how those would establish the fabled equality of opportunity. Sounds like a well balanced piece, clearly relevant to the discussion. Entitled rich kids usually went to private schools where I'm from. I held a workshop at an inner-city Gymnasium in Frankfurt as part of an internship and more than half of the students had a foreign background, so watching Gymnasium students portrayed as the offspring of lawyers, managers and the nobility was quite funny. There's a large discrepancy in how well Germany's school system performs depending on which state you're testing. I seriously hope you and the other QQing posters grew up in notoriously bad states such as Hamburg, Bremen or NRW. Otherwise I have to question whether you're genuinely outraged or just bitching about poo poo for ideological reasons.
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Oct 3, 2011 17:36
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I wonder if the proponents of the ranked school system would still be in favor of it, if one would abandon the recommendations at the end of primary school, and would segregate strictly on a standardized test (something like the SAT in the US for college admissions). The Bildungsbürger tears would be delicious, if their spawn wouldn't be allowed into the Gymnasium because their score turned out to be not good enough. I imagine the conversation between the teachers and entiteld parents: "Well, unfortunately Karl-Hubertus only qualified for the Hauptschule. Yes I know that he comes from a family of Medical Doctors, but if he does well in the Hauptschule, he may have a promising career as a plumber. We need good plumbers, don't you agree? Have a good day"
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Oct 3, 2011 18:06
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Previously on GBS posted:Germany is pretty firmly in the middle in terms of social mobility actually. Not great, but better than many other countries (Italy, Spain, USA, UK). All right, my mistake. But wasn't there still quite a lot of indignant bitching from politicians when the news broke about our rank in social mobility? Besides, being better then those countries is not saying too much. Previously on GBS posted:No, that does not follow at all, I don't think anyone claims that the German system is as good as it gets. Thats not what I said. I was merely illustrating, what our system set out to achieve. Previously on GBS posted:That does not make any sense. Most states only make a recommendation about the type of school a child should attend and the parents are free to completely ignore it. Besides, as has been pointed out numerous times, there are many ways to qualify for university even if you don't initially attend gymnasium. Even if the whole system certainly is not fair and could stand improvement, there's no denying anybody anything. I'm talking about the overall effect of the system. When there are people assigned to the wrong school (which happens, as you wrote yourself), they are treated unjust. It doesn't matter if their teachers or parents are responsible, the system forces them to make a choice. If they wouldn't have to make that choice, they couldn't gently caress it up, by projection their prejudice or warped expectations on the child. It's also interesting, that you should bring up students, who are pressured into Gymnasum, because of their parents. Thats certainly no less damaging to the child, then being wrongfully railroaded into Hauptschule. I mean two of the people who shot up German schools were in that situation. Not that I'm saying that that was the sole and main reason, but it certainly didn't help.
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Oct 3, 2011 18:12
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DeusEx posted:I wonder if the proponents of the ranked school system would still be in favor of it, if one would abandon the recommendations at the end of primary school, and would segregate strictly on a standardized test (something like the SAT in the US for college admissions). For every Karl-Hubertus that happens to, there will be 5 children stuck in Realschule with no chance of switching later because their parents wouldn't or couldn't help them prepare for those tests. Hilarious idea, you sure woulda showed them! 
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Oct 3, 2011 18:30
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DeusEx posted:I wonder if the proponents of the ranked school system would still be in favor of it, if one would abandon the recommendations at the end of primary school, and would segregate strictly on a standardized test (something like the SAT in the US for college admissions). Two weeks after that system was implemented, you would be in here complaining how it cements the status quo because only the middle and upper class have the money to send little Karl-Hubertus to take remidal lessons. Remidal lessons (Nachhilfe) is already a big industry, and would only flourish more under that system, no matter how much money you pump into schools. I mean, it fucks over the poor good and proper, so I'm sure the FDP and the CDU would happily run with it.
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Oct 3, 2011 18:37
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Paul Pot posted:For every Karl-Hubertus that happens to, there will be 5 children stuck in Realschule with no chance of switching later because their parents wouldn't or couldn't help them prepare for those tests. Hilarious idea, you sure woulda showed them! Well, it would be based on merit. Each to his/her own ability. Also these tests could be designed to be of a rather abstract nature, where preparation would do little to influence results. It would still seem fairer to me, than subjective "recommendations". After all it's your faction that argues it should be all about merit and ability, right?
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Oct 3, 2011 18:39
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Standardised tests never, ever work out that way. They are almost always horribly regressive, and you'd end up with ridiculous stuff like the US system where schools are rewarded for their standardised test scores.
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Oct 3, 2011 18:41
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In NL it's based on teacher recommendation + 1 standardized national test + 1 more standardized test of the schools choosing. Teachers recommendation usually counts double though, but a discrepancy between teacher recommendation and test result is certainly going to raise some eyebrows. On top of that we only seperate at age 12, and the top 2 types of schools (having roughly 20% of all high schoolers for the top and 30% for the second highest type) can share a mixed first year in high school before being fully seperated in case there's doubt. I think the bottom 4 (each subtypes of the same schooltype, really) have a similar shared first year, but I'm not sure. Then on top of that, a lot of schools have multiple schooltypes in the same building, meaning each type can have the same teachers teaching them.
Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Oct 3, 2011 |
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Oct 3, 2011 18:43
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Today is our national day, German Unity Day. The fact that I just realized that now says everything about how important it is to most people.
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Oct 3, 2011 19:09
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DeusEx posted:Well, it would be based on merit. Each to his/her own ability. Also these tests could be designed to be of a rather abstract nature, where preparation would do little to influence results. It would still seem fairer to me, than subjective "recommendations". After all it's your faction that argues it should be all about merit and ability, right? I don't have a faction, I'm merely a pragmatist. Implementing the all-day school everywhere, getting the crap states like Hamburg to change their curriculum to that of Bavaria or BW, and investing in high quality teachers are more pressing and manageable issues than a complete overhaul of the 3-tiered system (which works quite well in some states). Standardized tests are a loving joke at that age. e: Class size is another major problem which will keep us from getting to Finland's level, but I guess that's not something you can solve quickly or without loads of money. Paul Pot fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Oct 3, 2011 |
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Oct 3, 2011 19:11
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Frohen Tag der Deutschen Einheit, liebe Nachbarn 
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Oct 3, 2011 19:14
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What's wrong with education in NRW? I'm asking because I'll be living in Dusseldorf and it seems like a pretty nice place so I'm not sure why you guys lump up Hamburg, NRW etc into the "poo poo state" group. I mean isn't Northern Germany supposed to be rich and developed compared to the south? Or is this one of those regional biases where one side will always say they are better than the other? I have heard how BW and Bayern have the best education before though. I'm guessing you're less likely to end up in Hauptschule there?
DerDestroyer fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Oct 3, 2011 |
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Oct 3, 2011 19:35
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DerDestroyer posted:What's wrong with education in NRW? I'm asking because I'll be living in Dusseldorf and it seems like a pretty nice place so I'm not sure why you guys lump up Hamburg, NRW etc into the "poo poo state" group. I mean isn't Northern Germany supposed to be rich and developed compared to the south? Or is this one of those regional biases where one side will always say they are better than the other? I think you are confusing us with Italy (its cool, we fought WWII together!). The southern states of Germany are by and large the richer ones. Compare, for example, Bavaria with Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (not entirely fair, because MV had 40 years of communism and was never an industrial powerhouse in the first place).
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Oct 3, 2011 19:43
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DerDestroyer posted:I mean isn't Northern Germany supposed to be rich and developed compared to the south? EDIT: DerDestroyer posted:I have heard how BW and Bayern have the best education before though. I'm guessing you're less likely to end up in Hauptschule there? Previously on GBS fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Oct 3, 2011 |
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Oct 3, 2011 19:46
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Gold and a Pager posted:How many Lehramt diplom students did you meet? Maybe you just happened to meet some really poo poo people who happened to study Lehramt, but that's not a quality that is limited to just one subject. I will have to agree that Lehramtstudenten are on average and to my experience less "spirited". Most people who are really good in their subject are that way because they love and it and are interested in it. Most of these don't like to teach the very basics of what they love to bored pupils but would rather study it and dwelve deeper into its mysteries. Those who teach it either a) aren't really good at it b) prefer a steady paycheck to intellectual excitement This leads to a clustering of boring and/or mediocre people. Boring and mediocre people who study for a Diplom or Magister or the fancy new bachelor/master instead of Lehramt tend to drop out because they realize that they won't earn money with a lacklustre M.A. in Medieval German Literature. That said: It sucks for those who aren't lacklustre, but they can't change that there are incentives for mediocre people to study Lehramt.
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Oct 3, 2011 19:51
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Previously on GBS posted:No, the south is doing better in pretty many respects (education, unemployment, crime...) Starting to wish I actually applied for that one job in München that matched my qualifications perfectly.
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Oct 3, 2011 19:54
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Previously on GBS posted:Today is our national day, German Unity Day. The fact that I just realized that now says everything about how important it is to most people. Overshadowed by the HVV outlawing drinking in the subway. Hamburg DerDestroyer posted:Starting to wish I actually applied for that one job in München that matched my qualifications perfectly. No you don't.
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Oct 3, 2011 19:55
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DerDestroyer posted:Starting to wish I actually applied for that one job in München that matched my qualifications perfectly. Are you in IT? Munich is a love it or hate it kind of place (I do both, often at the same time), although I'm not sure there are any Bavarians in this thread, so most likely everyone here will tell you how much Munich sucks.
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Oct 3, 2011 20:01
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Previously on GBS posted:Are you in IT? Yes and no, I have an IT background with some summer job work experience but I studied Finance in University because the IT jobs in Canada dried up so I thought everything was being outsourced to India. Then the financial crisis hits and now I find all the Finance jobs are either highly competitive or non existent so I'm back in IT mode. I can pretty much do any Business Analyst style position and it's what I'm applying for now when I look for work. I'll probably go back to school sooner or later to get a more solid IT background and maybe get an ITIL certification afterwards.
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Oct 3, 2011 20:06
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