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Plankalkuel posted:Well I asked you, if the German Gymnasium students were significantly better, then the equivalent ratio of Finnish students. It may be a misunderstanding, but I thought, that you said that was the case. For that I would like sources. I don't need sources, to know, that the top tier of a segregated school system performs better, then the average of a integrated system. You have not read any PISA document. If you had, you would stop spouting the "segregated school" nonsense. Our school system promises that those that attend Gymnasium are really the best we have to offer and that the lowest tier attends Hauptschule This is largely true, as evidenced by PISA. This is my entire point right there, and easy to check if you actually cared to read what PISA found out. I haven't stated anything beyond that that is in any opposition to what you have written. You are confusing this issue by strawmanning. You are saying that because some people, though qualified, don't get to go to a Gymnasium, the entire system is flawed. It is not perfect, nothing is. And, more importantly, no one claims it is. And there are many naturalized Germans, immigrant Germans and just plain Germans being treated unfairly. Of course that needs to be changed, but you are turning this into an issue of racism and class so as if the entire education system is built around "keeping it German". Just look at the DeusEx moron. You are caught up in assumptions about people not readily admitting that the system needs to undergo change. The only conclusion to draw is that our system is not inherently flawed, especially when it is up to teachers/parents to decide where their children go to school. Also: Really, really stop using commas like you would when talking in German. I am not trying to be mean to you, but it really disturbs the flow when reading your otherwise well-written posts.
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Oct 3, 2011 20:37
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Einbauschrank posted:I think this varies greatly depending on subject. Teachers of mathematics really really own around here. English teachers not so much.
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Oct 3, 2011 20:39
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DerDestroyer posted:Starting to wish I actually applied for that one job in München that matched my qualifications perfectly. Düsseldorf is a very nice place if you avoid the bad areas (they're pretty bad). Both are among the richest cities in Germany. Düsseldorf might be a little more international and Bavaria in general is a love/hate thing for most people. BW, Bavaria and Saxony are the highest scoring states. NRW used to be at the bottom, but apparently they've since improved to mediocre. Hamburg is one of the nicest cities in Germany, so just because the education is poo poo doesn't mean it's a bad place to live.
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Oct 3, 2011 21:15
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KingaSlipek posted:You have not read any PISA document. If you had, you would stop spouting the "segregated school" nonsense. Our school system promises that those that attend Gymnasium are really the best we have to offer and that the lowest tier attends Hauptschule This is largely true, as evidenced by PISA. This is my entire point right there, and easy to check if you actually cared to read what PISA found out. I haven't stated anything beyond that that is in any opposition to what you have written. You are confusing this issue by strawmanning. You are saying that because some people, though qualified, don't get to go to a Gymnasium, the entire system is flawed. It is not perfect, nothing is. And, more importantly, no one claims it is. And there are many naturalized Germans, immigrant Germans and just plain Germans being treated unfairly. Of course that needs to be changed, but you are turning this into an issue of racism and class so as if the entire education system is built around "keeping it German". Just look at the DeusEx moron. You are caught up in assumptions about people not readily admitting that the system needs to undergo change. The only conclusion to draw is that our system is not inherently flawed, especially when it is up to teachers/parents to decide where their children go to school. So if you admit that "many people are treated unfairly", but that it isn't an issue of "racism and class", where does the problem then stems from? Also how can a system where many people are treated unfairly be "not inherently flawed"?
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Oct 3, 2011 21:17
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DeusEx posted:
The system illustrates the shortcomings of the years before, namely elemntary school and kindergarten education. That system is inherently flawed but separate from the school system that follows. In other words, I lay blame on something else. You won't improve general education without reforming early child education.
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Oct 3, 2011 21:29
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Düsseldorf is great, as weird as this may sound, if I could choose any place in to live right now, it would probably be Düsseldorf. Despite not seeming like the most international place, Munich is actually the city with the highest percentage of foreigners in Germany.
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Oct 3, 2011 21:34
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KingaSlipek posted:The system illustrates the shortcomings of the years before, namely elemntary school and kindergarten education. That system is inherently flawed but separate from the school system that follows. In other words, I lay blame on something else. You won't improve general education without reforming early child education. So what would you propose for primary school, so that the following segregation wouldn't fall so conveniently in line with race/class divisions?
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Oct 3, 2011 21:37
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Paul Pot posted:Hamburg is one of the nicest cities in Germany, so just because the education is poo poo doesn't mean it's a bad place to live. You southerners sure come off as insecure with your creepy worship of rankings, germanness, wealth and the economy. Are there no other things of value in your tight-assed lives?
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Oct 3, 2011 21:43
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StrangeRobot posted:You southerners sure come off as insecure with your creepy worship of rankings, germanness, wealth and the economy. Are there no other things of value in your tight-assed lives? I just told an American not to worry about education rankings when determining how nice an area is. Perhaps you should stick to a German-language website until your reading comprehension improves.
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Oct 3, 2011 21:54
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DeusEx posted:So what would you propose for primary school, so that the following segregation wouldn't fall so conveniently in line with race/class divisions? Uhh, we are in Germany. Everyone is racist, so there is no way out of that. I don't delude myself into thinking that you are asking this out of real curiosity, (after all, I am a forums poster) but to put me in a corner because I don't subscribe to your left-wing hysteria. It doesn't really matter what I would propose, as it is irrelevant to the discussion, but if you must know: Rule out any traces of "racism" by handing out the grades without their attached names to teachers not involved with that child and then let those teachers decide on the child's future education. This is still not a fool-proof solution, in fact it isn't helping a whole lot, but it removes a large chunk of unfairness in the selection process. Likewise, we could let a computer decide. And then only hand out recommendations for the absolute best and absolute worst, and generally let the parents be the ultimate decision makers, without pressure being applied to them.
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Oct 3, 2011 21:57
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KingaSlipek posted:Uhh, we are in Germany. Everyone is racist, so there is no way out of that. And I don't delude myself that you are that naive. Parents are generally the worst, least objective people, to decide the capabilities of their child. They tend to overvalue the capabilities of their child, as well as instill their traditional values on their kids. Really what we need is more state intervention with the education of children, than less. Segregation would be fine, in a perfect world, where children are segregated on their merits and capabilities alone. But because such a world doesn't exist and overlaying factors warp the selection process, I'm rather skeptical of the tiered school system as it is.
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Oct 3, 2011 22:10
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Paul Pot posted:I just told an American not to worry about education rankings when determining how nice an area is. True, after you shat several times on the northern education systems and demanded we adapt your retarded southern system of rote memorisation because it scored higher in whatever rankings. Saying that our city is nice despite us being uneducated retards compared to you bavarian demigods also isn't quite what I would call absence of a competitiveness-obsessed mindset. Having said that I freely admit that the southern landscape is way more beautiful and interesting than the boring-rear end neverending plains of the north.
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Oct 3, 2011 22:25
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This is just in: Civil war about to break out in Germany over school system, Bavaria declaring "Gymnasiums or Death!" Seriously guys...some of you make it sound like you need an Ariernachweis to amount to anything in this country.
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Oct 3, 2011 23:22
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StrangeRobot posted:True, after you shat several times on the northern education systems and demanded we adapt your retarded southern system of rote memorisation because it scored higher in whatever rankings. Saying that our city is nice despite us being uneducated retards compared to you bavarian demigods also isn't quite what I would call absence of a competitiveness-obsessed mindset. What exactly are you trying to say? We shouldn't be competitive when it comes to education? I believe most parents would disagree. On average you'll be better prepared for college if you went to a school in Bavaria as opposed to one in Hamburg. I wouldn't want to be treated by a doctor with bad memorization skills. You may continue to call me a demigod, but I resent being called Bavarian.
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Oct 3, 2011 23:23
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KingaSlipek posted:You have not read any PISA document. If you had, you would stop spouting the "segregated school" nonsense. Our school system promises that those that attend Gymnasium are really the best we have to offer and that the lowest tier attends Hauptschule This is largely true, as evidenced by PISA. This is my entire point right there, and easy to check if you actually cared to read what PISA found out. I haven't stated anything beyond that that is in any opposition to what you have written. You are confusing this issue by strawmanning. You are saying that because some people, though qualified, don't get to go to a Gymnasium, the entire system is flawed. It is not perfect, nothing is. And, more importantly, no one claims it is. And there are many naturalized Germans, immigrant Germans and just plain Germans being treated unfairly. Of course that needs to be changed, but you are turning this into an issue of racism and class so as if the entire education system is built around "keeping it German". Just look at the DeusEx moron. You are caught up in assumptions about people not readily admitting that the system needs to undergo change. The only conclusion to draw is that our system is not inherently flawed, especially when it is up to teachers/parents to decide where their children go to school. Segregated means nothing but separated. And our students are separated, so it's a valid term. I have never said that our school system doesn't achieve the classification to some degree. What I'm calling into question is, that our system has an net advantage over a integrated system. I would however say, that the whole system is flawed. The teachers and parents are part of the system, if they fail in their role and the system isn't prepared to compensate, it fails too. As far as I'm concerned, this is a typical case of having a solution for a problem, that doesn't exist (a proud German tradition). You could convince me otherwise by showing, that our top students do significantly better, than the top in Finland. You haven't done that. Your whole point about the superiority of our segregated education system hinges on the idea, that separation in the three tiers allows us to get better educated top tier students than pretty much everybody else (correct me if I'm wrong). If that's not the case, why keep the system? By doing away with it, we would eliminate all the problems with social mobility and wrongly classified students at once. Even if it works as you say, this gain in performance for the top tier comes then at the price of social injustice. Our school system is not here to serve only a subgroup of society. I mean you don't even mention students from the Hauptschule or Realschule. Even after Germany stepped up its game after the first so called PISA "shock" we are still far behind Finland. If our best students are so awesome, that deficit will have to come from someone being significantly worse than the Finnish students. That someone would be the students of the Realschule and Hauptschule. So now matter how we look at it, someone's getting the short end of the stick here. Personally I would find that even more morally reprehensible, than a system, which under performs everywhere equally. How can you say, that making this issue of class is not justified? Look at that stuff about the changes in Hamburg. Look at the opponents of the integrated schools and tell me there are no class issues at work here. I'm not saying, that there is some conspiracy to keep poors and immigrants out of higher education, but if there is a clear correlation between the degrees and social standing and education of the parents, there is a problem and the education system is most likely part of it. Besides you have some nice strawmen yourself. I never said that the system was intentionally designed to have that effect, it just does because humans are selfish assholes. I would love to write more, but even after saving lots of time by typing less commas, I need to go to bed. Hope you find the comparison between the best Finnish and the best German students 
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Oct 3, 2011 23:27
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ArchangeI posted:This is just in: Civil war about to break out in Germany over school system, Bavaria declaring "Gymnasiums or Death!" Well, your chances of success are significantly higher if you are the child of wealthy parents and not brown. I would be willing to call that an Ariernachweis lite. Yes, I am aware that this is pretty much an international problem. Doesn't mean we should rest on the status quo.
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Oct 3, 2011 23:32
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The Flour Moth posted:Well, your chances of success are significantly higher if you are the child of wealthy parents and not brown. I would be willing to call that an Ariernachweis lite. You've got better chances if you're well raised by your parents. Household income is a confounding variable. Being brown is another confounding variable. Many "brown" foreigners are from backwards region like Anatolia and don't see the point in higher education or if they see the point they do not know how to nudge their children towards it. This would be another case of bad parenting rather than social apartheid. The failure of the school system would be to ignore the incompetence of certain parents. But the solution shouldn't be that good parents (and especiqally their children) are being punished for the shortcomings of others. My girlfriend comes for a typical underclass background (single mom with no secondary school qualification) but was well raised. The Bavarian Gymnasium was the road for social advancement. Plankalkuel posted:Even after Germany stepped up its game after the first so called PISA "shock" we are still far behind Finland. If our best students are so awesome, that deficit will have to come from someone being significantly worse than the Finnish students. It's no big secret who our worst pupils are and that Finland "lacks" strength in the corresponding group of urbanized and squalid families. To really compare the school system we would have to compare Finnish pupils in the Finnish system and Finnish pupils in the German system. Or we would have to put German pupils in Finnish schools and see if they fare better. You would also have to equip the German schools with the same amount of money to compare the systems. It doesn't lead anywhere to compare different input and then claim the school is at fault. Finland is less urbanized (and therefore has less of an urban under-class) and had less immigrants with a poor educational background. Finland also spends per capita more money on their schools (but not on their teachers, they earn less than in Germany, but also have less pupils with behavioural problems so that their work is less annoying). To claim the different results are the result of integrated vs. differentiated school system is mainly the result of wanting the school system to be the reason rather than some kind of empirical analysis. Einbauschrank fucked around with this message at 08:52 on Oct 4, 2011 |
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Oct 4, 2011 08:36
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Das Butterbrot posted:Frohen Tag der Deutschen Einheit, liebe Nachbarn Thanks, but I don't think anyone in Germany is celebrating this day.
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Oct 4, 2011 08:42
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Einbauschrank posted:You've got better chances if you're well raised by your parents. Household income is a confounding variable. Being brown is another confounding variable. Many "brown" foreigners are from backwards region like Anatolia and don't see the point in higher education or if they see the point they do not know how to nudge their children towards it. This would be another case of bad parenting rather than social apartheid. This is exactly the kind of poo poo self hating Germans never want to see or hear and you're going to get accused of being a complete racist and an anti-turk. But I can't help but point out that a lot of the people Einbauschrank is talking about basically resent Germany, the German culture and the system they live in and would rather their kids not even learn the German language. Some cultures just have incorrect traditions that are in open conflict with western traditions and no one wants to hold these people responsible for their own actions. Instead it's somehow "Germany's fault" for not accommodating them. Really though, it's Germany not Eastern Anatolia, their rules don't apply here. When you immigrate to another country you need to understand that if it's a country like Germany your culture doesn't apply in Germany, the German culture is the one that takes precedence and its up to you to adapt it as your own. If you were living in Eastern Anatolia, the local residents would expect the same of you. EDIT: I'm not even talking about being Muslim, that isn't the issue here. It's the open hostility to everything non Turkish and rear end in a top hat family members murdering their own daughters or sisters because they are "too German". DerDestroyer fucked around with this message at 08:46 on Oct 4, 2011 |
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Oct 4, 2011 08:42
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Germany didn't bother with integrating the Turks. It's mostly our fault. And now it's too late.
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Oct 4, 2011 08:44
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Hungry Gerbil posted:Germany didn't bother with integrating the Turks. It's mostly our fault. And now it's too late. Yeah it's a two way street. But the first mistake was to lopsidedly admit a large number of immigrants from one country and culture without any oversight or attempts to adjust them to their new home. They should've really focused on balanced out immigration between multiple countries around the world but I guess they needed an immigrant group that wouldn't possibly be Soviet spies or something. Inviting rural Turks to live in Germany is like asking Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons and ultra conservative Christians to move en-masse to Las Vegas. DerDestroyer fucked around with this message at 08:52 on Oct 4, 2011 |
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Oct 4, 2011 08:48
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Hungry Gerbil posted:Germany didn't bother with integrating the Turks. It's mostly our fault. And now it's too late. I think it is getting better.
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Oct 4, 2011 08:54
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Einbauschrank posted:I think it is getting better. Speaking of which I think there used to be a lot of Vietnamese immigrants in Germany. I think the new head of the FDP is a Vietnamese person as well. How did the Vietnamese experience differ from the Turkish one in Germany?
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Oct 4, 2011 09:00
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DerDestroyer posted:How did the Vietnamese experience differ from the Turkish one in Germany? They are doing quite well. Their "brown" children are on average more successful at attending (and completing) the Gymnasium than the children of "white" Germans. But, of course, the differentiated system is burgeois and therefore a racist instrument of class warfare  The head of the FDP was adopted.
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Oct 4, 2011 09:27
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DerDestroyer posted:They should've really focused on balanced out immigration between multiple countries around the world but I guess they needed an immigrant group that wouldn't possibly be Soviet spies or something. Actually Germany was rather reluctant to allow Turkish guestworkers in. The German wiki article implies that there was pressure from Washington because the US wanted to stabilize the important NATO member Turkey.
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Oct 4, 2011 10:11
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Rösler about politics and power: "Es ist so wie bei Tolkiens Saga 'Herr der Ringe'. Alle wollen Macht erlangen, sie wollen den Ring besitzen. Aber je länger sie den Ring besitzen, desto mehr verlieren sie von ihrer Persönlichkeit. Und irgendwann sind sie dann wie dieser Gollum." "It's like in Tolkien's 'Lord of the Rings'. Everyone wants to have power, everyone wants to have the Ring. But the longer they possess the Ring the more they lose their personality. And finally they are like this Gollum."
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Oct 4, 2011 10:17
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^^^That's actually a pretty good analogy, a bit nerdy but then again so is the guy in general. DerDestroyer posted:Speaking of which I think there used to be a lot of Vietnamese immigrants in Germany. I think the new head of the FDP is a Vietnamese person as well. I'd argue that the vietnamese experience is a bit different not due to better immigration efforts but due to numbers. There simply aren't enough Vietnamese to establish a true parallel society. While there are plenty of turkish doctors, travel agencies, lawyers and pretty much everything else you need to avoid contact with Germans you'd be hard pressed to find vietnamese equivalents. There are quite a lot of vietnamese supermarkets where often your only way of communicating is by gestures but the infrastructure for a truly segregated community isn't there. hankor fucked around with this message at 10:57 on Oct 4, 2011 |
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Oct 4, 2011 10:53
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Well, of course it is a good analogy. That's what Tolkien wanted it to be. Recognizing that is not exactly a great mental effort. I just can't take this guy seriously. He is even worse than Westerwelle. And that guy is already a clown. Hungry Gerbil fucked around with this message at 12:32 on Oct 4, 2011 |
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Oct 4, 2011 10:59
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Rösler is... adorable. I'm sure Schäuble would agree with that sentiment.
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Oct 4, 2011 11:45
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It is always hilarious to see people rant and rave about how "some cultures" have "incorrect traditions" and how it's their refusal to integrate and the left's blindness about these issues that lead to our current problems. When in fact up until the the 80ies the official policy of the conservatives was to focus on returning all those Gastarbeiters and their descendants first and only integrate them second. Even 1998 the conservative government tried to save their necks by basing their election campaign on "Germany is not a country of immigration", even if reality strongly disagreed. The conservative hero of the 80ies, chancellor Kohl, was trying to get the Gastarbeiter (and their descendants) to leave the country with "Rückkehrprämien" (pay them to return to their country of origin). Language courses and other incentives to integrate existed for one type of immigrant: the "(Spät)Aussiedler", people who lived in formerly german areas of the east that were lost after the war, who were able to claim citizenship right away. A child of turkish parents who came into Germany in the 60ies, worked and paid taxes for 30 years, could not automatically receive German citizenship until citizenship legislation was reformed under the first red-green government in 2000. Germany's conservative political leadership managed to create most of our current problems because they were putting ideology before reality for 30 years. Then they try to rewrite history and blame "leftist multi cultural politics" which were never allowed to exist in Germany outside of a few communal govermnents organizing some "intercultural block parties" and free language courses at some community centers.
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Oct 4, 2011 12:13
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dreamin' posted:Germany's conservative political leadership managed to create most of our current problems because they were putting ideology before reality for 30 years. Then they try to rewrite history and blame "leftist multi cultural politics" which were never allowed to exist in Germany outside of a few communal govermnents organizing some "intercultural block parties" and free language courses at some community centers. It's exactly that. They are at fault and they still try blaming the SPD and Grüne. gently caress them.
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Oct 4, 2011 12:32
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I used to think germany was pretty cool, but it's probably only berlin. Germany is really sounding like the US of europe. It's the biggest economy but it's full of right wing religious folk with awful blame-the-victim racism and a "that's just extreme left propaganda!" to any social or economic development since the 70's. Also nuclear power is germany's creationism debate.
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Oct 4, 2011 16:53
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Religious folk? Seriously?
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Oct 4, 2011 16:56
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Hungry Gerbil posted:Thanks, but I don't think anyone in Germany is celebrating this day. It was actually quite nice here in Bonn.
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Oct 4, 2011 17:14
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I would have hugged an Ossi, but I don't know any 
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Oct 4, 2011 18:11
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^^^ You can hug me, be aware that I will file an extensive report about your hugging though.Baronjutter posted:I used to think germany was pretty cool, but it's probably only berlin. Germany is really sounding like the US of europe. It's the biggest economy but it's full of right wing religious folk with awful blame-the-victim racism and a "that's just extreme left propaganda!" to any social or economic development since the 70's. Religion is largely irrelevant in current German society. What we call the right wing would be a filthy communist in the US, racism is largely institutional and is actually more hidden classism than anything else . nuclear power will be abolished, the only discussion is when. hankor fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Oct 4, 2011 |
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Oct 4, 2011 18:37
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Baronjutter posted:I used to think germany was pretty cool, but it's probably only berlin. Germany is really sounding like the US of europe. It's the biggest economy but it's full of right wing religious folk with awful blame-the-victim racism and a "that's just extreme left propaganda!" to any social or economic development since the 70's. That's just...no...just not at all. Where does any of the complicated, hairsplitting german gibberish sound even remotely like any of the clear-cut, black-and-white, pseudo-virtuous bullshit in the states? At least our idiocy is as complicated as our grammar. e: Since hankor brought it up, our "class warfare" is at least remotely connected to the actual definition as opposed to what is regularly conjured up for campaigning purposes in the US.
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Oct 4, 2011 18:47
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Stuhlmajor posted:That's just...no...just not at all. Where does any of the complicated, hairsplitting german gibberish sound even remotely like any of the clear-cut, black-and-white, pseudo-virtuous bullshit in the states? German idiocy seems more accidental as opposed to American idiocy which is downright spiteful and criminal. The grammar is awesome though. Learning it has been a blast for me and I love how precise I can be with the German language in ways I can't even express in the English language. Probably one of my favorite things is being able to re-arrange the position of the subject and object in a sentence to stress the object or subject in the sentence respectively whereas in modern English you can't do this because it would cause the subject to turn into the object. I always thought it was funny how much our academic circles in the English speaking world value old works of art like Shakespeare and yet now that I know a bit more German I've come to realize the major German influences in the Old English language. Who said German isn't a romantic language? It only sounds as awful as you want to make it sound. DerDestroyer fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Oct 4, 2011 |
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Oct 4, 2011 18:54
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DerDestroyer posted:Who said German isn't a romantic language? Mark Twain did. http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/awfgrmlg.html This essay is hilarious, partly because it's true and partly because he doesn't seem to get some of the finer points of the language. hankor fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Oct 4, 2011 |
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Oct 4, 2011 19:04
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Previously on GBS posted:Düsseldorf is great, as weird as this may sound, if I could choose any place in to live right now, it would probably be Düsseldorf. Really? I'd much rather live in Köln, more to do, though not exceptionally pretty. Plus the people are friendly.
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Oct 4, 2011 19:14
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