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dont be mean to me
May 2, 2007

I'm interplanetary, bitch
Let's go to Mars




Byzantine posted:

Also, since the Followers ending remains the same even if the Vegas ending is "the robot army quickly secured order in the Mojave", I assume they're just really whiny.

The Followers benefit from the NCR merely existing, despite being effectively a sovereign stateless organization themselves (pretty much only the Royal Order of Malta qualifies in the real world, and they aren't quite so humanitarian). After all, when a nation of millions is keeping things down to highwayman level (still not bad when you've got not early enough eyes and tools to handle the territory) it's that much less heavy lifting you have to do yourself. And the relationship isn't so one-sided; remember that the Followers basically are the Californian education system.

And all their resources are back in California, which the Followers will at least temporarily be cut off from, and the typical turmoil from even the most noble and well-managed unscheduled change in government.

If there's any consolation, it's that the good-karma House and Independent endings imply a fairly enduring (at least the Courier and either House or Yes Man's lifetimes) Good Times, while the Follower's desperation slide doesn't have any such length of time included, and one could assume the typical weeks to a few months of struggle (maybe a year or two if some new excitement happens). Extend for neutral or bad karma, of course.

dont be mean to me fucked around with this message at Mar 21, 2014 around 05:06

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Fuzz1138
Feb 2, 2013

We don't have to dream that we're important. We are.


Byzantine posted:

If House gets blamed for Freeside (an area he doesn't even control), why are the Kings so super awesome for actually being in charge of that shithole and being dicks about water?

Because the King himself has that incredible smile that could melt the heart of the meanest deathclaw in the Mojave.
Instant world peace.

Wolfsheim
Dec 23, 2003


It is depressing that in almost every ending they get, the Followers pretty much get shafted. Maybe it's a callback to that Fallout 1 bug that gave them the 'super mutants killed them all' ending no matter what And I love the Kings, but I can easily see why they get cut down by House in two out of three endings:

"I'm expanding the Strip, either work for me or leave."
"We choose neither!"
"Okay, if you don't leave I will kill you."
*attacks robot army with switchblades and lead pipes, dies in hail of missiles*

SpookyLizard
Feb 17, 2009


chiasaur11 posted:

They "left" the Kahns alone because they thought they'd killed 'em all. Like, that's been how the Kahns have worked. They murder, steal, and enslave NCR stuff. A PC comes along and murders the gently caress out of 'em. Problem settled.

Then, a few decades later it turns out there was one or two left, they reformed the organization under the party line of "We'll get the NCR this time! Those fucks are going down!". Then a PC comes along and kills them to almost the last man, NCR figures it's settled, repeat.

The Kahns don't want to be left alone. They want to kill anyone who can't defend themselves, steal anything that isn't bolted down, and sell drugs to the Fiends, who do all that but worse. Although killing individual members of the group can be varying degrees of wrong (from 'Good riddance' to 'War Crime') wiping out their civilization (whether by straight up extermination or well crafted lies to replace their background with classical Mongol) is pure gain.

Really, when you keep kicking a bear, I don't feel too sorry when it mauls you to death.

Hey guys, while actually killing everyone is really horrible, it's super good because they refuse to join the NCR. I mean on it's own it's utterly horrific for each totally innocent child killed, but y'know, since we're wiping out their culture, it's all good.

Do you even loving, like, think? ever? at all?

Fair Bear Maiden
Jun 17, 2013


Wolfsheim posted:

It is depressing that in almost every ending they get, the Followers pretty much get shafted. Maybe it's a callback to that Fallout 1 bug that gave them the 'super mutants killed them all' ending no matter what And I love the Kings, but I can easily see why they get cut down by House in two out of three endings:

"I'm expanding the Strip, either work for me or leave."
"We choose neither!"
"Okay, if you don't leave I will kill you."
*attacks robot army with switchblades and lead pipes, dies in hail of missiles*

If only I had left Rex with them..... if only....

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012


SpookyLizard posted:

Hey guys, while actually killing everyone is really horrible, it's super good because they refuse to join the NCR. I mean on it's own it's utterly horrific for each totally innocent child killed, but y'know, since we're wiping out their culture, it's all good.

Do you even loving, like, think? ever? at all?

I do.

The people dying is bad.

The culture dying is good.

It's fairly simple. For example, oh, the cult of Thugee. I know, some historians doubt it existed, but indulge me. Even if it was fictional, so are the Kahns. The individual deaths of the members may cost people their lives who, other than the murdering travelers, have been pillars of the community. But the death of the cult itself is a net good. The fewer people killed in the extermination of the idea, the better, but the idea, for the benefit of everyone involved, has to die. The same is true of the Kahn culture.

And, in case you still refuse to acknowledge the basic tenants of the Kahn's culture, my issue isn't that they refuse to join the NCR. The same is true of the Kings and the Boomers, and I've never defended NCR plans for expansion in either case. The good ending is that the NCR leaves them as independent groups.

The problem with the Kahns is that they're murderous raiders who kill women and children, ruin the lives of anyone trying to get by, and beat their own kids half to death as a rite of passage.

Bitter Springs is a war crime, and the NCR is right to be ashamed, maybe didn't go far enough on that, even. But conducting the rest of the Kahn campaign is standard practice for a belligerent state. They kill your people and refuse to talk, you kill 'em back until they agree to talk. The Kahns, instead, kept supporting every enemy the NCR had.

If there was a way to get them to talk, that would be great. (And, for the record, the ending where the NCR forces the survivors onto camps is dickweedery, even if it's pretty human, understandable dickweedery) But as things stand, I can't really bring myself to cry too much when they get what they have coming.

packetmantis
Feb 26, 2013

oh ar


Fallout: New Vegas: White Supremacy

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Byzantine posted:

Am I the only one who remembers the dialogue line that "the Kings are just a gang like any other"? I'm like 90% sure that Farkas says that line too, so ~*The Followers*~ don't think much of them
She likes the King himself though, or I remember her having dialogue to that effect.

LividLiquid posted:

I don't think the Khans were the squatters in Vault 15. They were the guys up by Vault City and their location was just called "Raiders."
Darion, the leader of the squatters in V15, is the only survivor (still alive after 80 years anyway) of the Vault Dweller's attack on the Khans to rescue Tandi. The rest of the squatters were following him and calling themselves the New Khans, iirc

KittyEmpress
Dec 30, 2012

Jam Buddies


I'm not exactly the best at remembering lore, especially for groups I don't like, but the Khans are pretty bad people.


In Fallout 1 they're a 'tribe' of raiders who kidnap, pillage, surprise sex, murder, and steal. In his action of saving Tandi, the Vault Dweller murders almost all the Khans.

In Fallout 2 the few survivors of that blame Tandi for their tribe being wiped out, and try and build a new tribe meant to specifically raid the NCR. The Chosen One wipes them out.

Between Fallout 2 and NV, the survivors migrate into the Mojave, For around 30~ years they grew,, raid other 'tribals', surprise sex, pillage, murder, etc, until they were the largest Tribe in New Vegas. Then Mr. House wakes up, and offered the various tribes positions in Vegas if they pretend to be cultured society from the past. The Khans think 'this is stupid' and refuse. Mr. House provides weaponry to the Omertas, White Gloves, and Chairmen and tell them to push to Khans out of any areas too close to New Vegas. The Khans lose almost all the power they had gained in this time.

During this time, NCR citizens start expanding closer to Vegas. Still hostile to the NCR and with 'gently caress the NCR' as a big part of their culture, the Khans systematically wipe out all NCR Settlers, caravans, etc etc. Men women and children are killed, despite not being soldiers!! Caravans are wiped out and raided for supplies. Lots of people die. Hundreds of NCR Civilians.

This causes the NCR to start sending troops into the Mojave, under guise of hunting down the khans for killing NCR citizens. The Khans assume House will push them out of New Vegas, and so take potshots and kill NCR troops when they can. Instead, House gives them information on the Dam and gives them free reign to take revenge on the Khans, as House doesn't particularly like the Khans, and would like them wiped out since they refused to follow him.


The NCR attempt to negotiate with the Khans briefly, but their negotiator says something to offend the Khans and is killed and displayed. So then the full might of the NCR is on them.

The Khans are like 'oh poo poo', and set up Bitter Springs - the old, the pregnant, the sickly, and the children are sent to a large hidden town while all abled bodied men and women are put into raiding parties to distract the NCR. Dozens of warriors would die, but it would be better to distract them from their families.

Except someone outside of the NCR informs the NCR of a massive military base known as Bitter Springs. It's never stated who does it, but it doesn't come from the NCR. THe NCR act on this information, as it's from a 'trusted source'. With so many deaths encouraging them, the NCR set up ready to kill every Khan at Bittersprings.

But Bitter Springs wasn't a military outpost. It was too late when they found that out. The NCR was ashamed. They acknowledged that they had screwed up. The people who participated on that day were allowed to leave the military if they wished, honorably and without question. It wasn't an intention of theirs to kill civilians.


The Khan raiding parties in response to this fled to Red Rock Canyon, where they cemented their hatred for the NCR. Killing the NCR was now their only goal. As part of that, they began selling drugs to the Fiends who established themselves near the NCR bases - creating a second 'tribe' of surprise sex/pillage/murderers. The Followers of the Apocalypse took it on themselves to aid the Great Khans due to how terrible the massacre was - they taught them many things, how to make medicine for their people, how to bind wounds, what foods grow easily etc etc. The Khans took this knowledge and began making drugs to sell to the Fiends, so that the Fiends would kill more NCR for them, instead of anything useful to their own people.


Bitter Springs was a terrible case of logistical and militarist incompetence, but was never something the NCR planned to 'genocide' the Khans. Even as far back as Fallout 2 they didn't want the Khans genocided. The Khans DID intentionally kill civilians however - if anyone are the bad guys in Great Khans vs. NCR, it's not the NCR. The Great Khans had been killing and pillaging and raping and murdering and drugging it up before the NCR was even around, then the 'new khans' were formed specifically out of hatred that a sixteen year old girl they had kidnapped and planned to hurt was rescued, and that said sixteen year old then lead to the creation of the NCR.

The Khans are horrible people whose culture does deserve to be wiped out, because it's a culture of hatred, surprise sex, murder, making drugs, burning people alive, flaying skin, torture, hunting down innocents, and helping other groups do so too, and generally being Evil with a capital E. They did not, however, deserve to have all of their people killed for being born to the Khans - especially not the children. They didn't know any better, or that the Khans way of living was literally horrible and disgusting



Though Bitter Root talks about how to get your proper name, the entire tribe used to beat you until you'd either die or have 'earned' the name, so ya know, they weren't even nice to their own people. They would kill their own children for not being strong enough to 'earn' a name, though they did give their children a choice to leave instead of take a name, IIRC.


I always thought the whole 'north western empire' thing was the worst ending possible for the Khans. They're still violent rage heads who want to kill everyone who isn't them. Chances are, you'll end up with a second Caesar's legion, except literally made up of raiders with no wise emperor to lead them and discipline.

KittyEmpress fucked around with this message at Mar 21, 2014 around 17:49

Chronojam
Feb 20, 2006

This is me on vacation in Amsterdam
Never be afraid of being yourself!

quote:

It started about six months ago. At first it was just supplies going missing - we figured it was refugees. Then people started dying. Always a single bullet to the head, always from extreme range. We've lost eight refugees and three soldiers to this son of a bitch. We know he must be hiding out in one of the caves up in the mountains, but I don't have enough men to send out looking for him!

Don't forget that even the Khans themselves have no problem attacking Bitter Springs and executing civilians and stealing important medical supplies, food, and water. Don't push your 21st century western worldview onto the Khans.

KittyEmpress
Dec 30, 2012

Jam Buddies


Chronojam posted:

Don't forget that even the Khans themselves have no problem attacking Bitter Springs and executing civilians and stealing important medical supplies, food, and water. Don't push your 21st century western worldview onto the Khans.

This is exactly the point - the Khans never had an issue attacking and murdering civilians. Ever. Never once was it implied that they would not kill civilians. They thrived on murdering anyone they could. The only time murdering civilians became a bad thing to them was when it was their civilians.

The NCR kills civilians through incompetence.

The Khans kill civilians because it's their culture.


How can people defend them???


Edit: Also note that the Khans and the New Khans both claimed that 'there are no such things as innocents, everyone is fair game if they are weak', because they were social Darwinist to the max. It's never mentioned in New Vegas as far as I remember, but that was their beliefs for 80 something years, and I doubt it changed much while they were murdering and raiding and pillaging.

Until, again, it was their innocents. Then it was suddenly wrong and they were justified in hating the NCR.

KittyEmpress fucked around with this message at Mar 21, 2014 around 18:27

Rush Limbo
Sep 5, 2005

its with a full house


Nobody is defending the Khans for being assholes, it's more proving that the NCR are not noble bastions of freedom and can be just as big a bunch of murdering assholes and you cannot justify any atrocity on the basis of 'well they started it', particularly if you're supposedly the good guys.

The Khans were assholes, that doesn't make a war crime against them justified. If you can't extend the same justice to your worst enemy that you would to your own citizens you're literally no better than the savages you're protecting people from.

KittyEmpress
Dec 30, 2012

Jam Buddies


Ddraig posted:

Nobody is defending the Khans for being assholes, it's more proving that the NCR are not noble bastions of freedom and can be just as big a bunch of murdering assholes and you cannot justify any atrocity on the basis of 'well they started it', particularly if you're supposedly the good guys.

The Khans were assholes, that doesn't make a war crime against them justified. If you can't extend the same justice to your worst enemy that you would to your own citizens you're literally no better than the savages you're protecting people from.

Yeah, except that after the NCR committed a war crime they were like 'oh poo poo we hosed up' and even approached the Great Khans trying to make amends. The Great Khans killed their messengers for that. The Followers also tried to help them, and the Great Khans' instead went 'oh, so we can make drugs and then give drugs to the Fiends so they kill NCR. Thanks!'

They attempted to make amends for the atrocity, and were rebuffed, killed, and continually raided. Yeah, the NCR ending for the Khans isn't very good, they get an indian reservation basically. But that's after 100 years of them slaughtering civilians for fun. Chances are, opinions of the Khans back home is basically 'kill them all', the fact that the NCR doesn't do so if the Khans agree to a truce proves that they're the bigger men.


Note that House's endings for them are either they get slaughtered at hoover dam for siding with Caesar, or they go to the north west, like every other faction has the chance of having them do.

The NCR aren't saints, but they're certainly not the PURE EVIL CORRUPT NON-DEMOCRATIC nation that you seem to think, Ddraig.


Also I think raping and murdering the NCR for 100+ years puts them past being 'assholes'. And puts them into being 'loving monsters'

StandardVC10
Feb 6, 2007



Megamarm

Ddraig posted:

Nobody is defending the Khans for being assholes, it's more proving that the NCR are not noble bastions of freedom and can be just as big a bunch of murdering assholes and you cannot justify any atrocity on the basis of 'well they started it', particularly if you're supposedly the good guys.

The Khans were assholes, that doesn't make a war crime against them justified. If you can't extend the same justice to your worst enemy that you would to your own citizens you're literally no better than the savages you're protecting people from.

You seem really desperate to think that the NCR is just as brutal as the Legion or whatever despite the mountains of evidence to the contrary. Bitter Springs makes them worse, for not living up to their ideals, but it does not make them "literally no better." Plus the fact that there's regret or contrition at all for the events, even if it's much too half-hearted, is nevertheless a step forward from the Legion, which wouldn't care, or the Khans, who'd likely be proud of something like that if they did it.

KittyEmpress
Dec 30, 2012

Jam Buddies


Another note about the Khans being horrible people - the Caesar's Legion ending has them stripped of identity, their old people executed, their women sold off as sex slaves. It claims the majority of Khans are pleased with this ending, just because they managed to kill a lot of NCR.

They are willing to give up family, friends, their own wives and daughters, everything that defines them as Great Khans... except for their hatred and bloodlust for the NCR.



These are BAD PEOPLE.

Wolfsheim
Dec 23, 2003


RE: the long Great Khans history lesson I only made it halfway through, I don't believe House offered the Khans the chance to work with him. He chose what he saw as the best three tribes to create the Three Families, and they weren't on the list. So they resent him for that, but as far as I know he doesn't care one way or the other about them. In fact, I think his path is the only one where you can avoid them entirely.

I also think that, NCR grudge aside, the Khans aren't supposed to be portrayed as that bad. It's Papa Khan who has the chip on his shoulder about getting revenge, the rest seem willing and even ready to move on. They probably have one of the most unambiguously good endings in the game, and I doubt the intention would be as such if they were just another raider group a la the fiends and powder gangers. Misguided is probably the best word for it.

Iretep
Nov 10, 2009


Personally I don't really care if the NCR are a bunch of saints or the devil in disguise. At the end of the day it's all about politics. With NCR you just get a bunch of rear end in a top hat ranch owners that want to make you leave their lands at gun point. With House you get a smug manipulative rear end in a top hat who really doesen't care about the common man all that much. Honestly I'd pick the smug rear end in a top hat over the ranch owner. At least he only cares about his own dumb power plays, the ranch owner wants anything worth owning.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

KittyEmpress posted:

Yeah, except that after the NCR committed a war crime they were like 'oh poo poo we hosed up' and even approached the Great Khans trying to make amends. The Great Khans killed their messengers for that.
huh, so after being massacred the Khans were still mad at the people who did it and didn't want to talk to them? Does Not Compute

KittyEmpress
Dec 30, 2012

Jam Buddies


2house2fly posted:

huh, so after being massacred the Khans were still mad at the people who did it and didn't want to talk to them? Does Not Compute

Yes, in one single case out of 100+ years of constantly doing things like that they were justified.

One case

hundreds of years

the NCR had sent a messenger to try and do the same peace talks when they first got to the mojave, and he was also killed.

without any reason having been given yet. The NCR sent him because the Khans were 'massacring' NCR settlers and travelers themselves.

By your own logic, after having settlers and travelers and caravaneers massacred for so many years without big reprisal, the NCR was justified to gun down Great Khans.


The Great Khans are horrid and their entire culture is based around massacring a singular group of people (NCR).

The only reason they are better than Caesar's Legion is that they aren't horribly sexist.

KittyEmpress fucked around with this message at Mar 21, 2014 around 19:22

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

There have been reprisals- the Vault Dweller and Chosen One both went completely sickhouse on their asses, then the NCR forced them out of the Core Region entirely. They settled in Vegas, then got forced out from there by House and the Three Families, who wanted to restart the casinos for the NCR. Their resentment for that probably fueled the ferocity of their raids against settlers.

King Doom
Dec 1, 2004
I am on the Internet.

The Khans were forced out of the core regions because they were raiders. They were the bad guys from mad max only with less cars. They were raping and pillaging before the NCR was a thing. The NCR forced them into the Mojave by being better organised with a bigger body of better trained soldiers. They left because they were losing more per raid than they gained and every time they went off to have fun (murdering random people) they were hammered by NCR reprisals.

Why are you people defending the bad guys so much and how long till we start to get essays on how the fiends are poor misunderstood victims and we should kill all the NCR soldiers to make them feel better?

Anime Schoolgirl
Nov 28, 2002

~perfect~
battlebrother





It's fair to assume that the swath of destruction the Vault Dweller and the Chosen One caused instigated massive upheavals in Khan society towards not being complete sociopaths, which is why they end up being drug-peddling tribals in New Vegas.

Unfortunately though justifiably, the NCR assumes this transformation never happened.

MisterBibs
Jul 17, 2010

dolla dolla
bill y'all


Fun Shoe

2house2fly posted:

There have been reprisals- the Vault Dweller and Chosen One both went completely sickhouse on their asses, then the NCR forced them out of the Core Region entirely. They settled in Vegas, then got forced out from there by House and the Three Families, who wanted to restart the casinos for the NCR. Their resentment for that probably fueled the ferocity of their raids against settlers.

The VD and CO, just like the NCR, weren't attacking the Khans because they were Khans. They were doing so because what the Khans were doing.

Raygereio
Nov 12, 2012


Anime Schoolgirl posted:

Unfortunately though justifiably, the NCR assumes this transformation never happened.
The NCR didn't have to assume anything because this transformation you speak off never happened. Despite repeatedly getting their poo poo wrecked because they're raiders, the Khans continued to be raiders.

Wolfsheim posted:

They probably have one of the most unambiguously good endings in the game
I don't know if I'd call it unambiguously good. Sure, it's good for the Khans themselves as they thrive in their mighty empire. But it doesn't say if they change their ways and stop being raiders.

steinrokkan
Apr 2, 2011

This avatar brought to you by the Lowtax Needs a New Spine Fund


Soiled Meat

Raygereio posted:

The NCR didn't have to assume anything because this transformation you speak off never happened. Despite repeatedly getting their poo poo wrecked because they're raiders, the Khans continued to be raiders.

But what about their proud and noble culture consisting of cooking meth and propping up gangs of murderous cannibals?

They are obviously better than the NCR because the NCR has bureaucrats and poo poo.

MisterBibs
Jul 17, 2010

dolla dolla
bill y'all


Fun Shoe

steinrokkan posted:

They are obviously better than the NCR because the NCR has bureaucrats and poo poo.

Don't forget taxes and rules and when we grow up into a real civilization we'll let our kids stay up all night* and do whatever they want**! gently caress you, NCR***!

* Shooting and stealing
** Drugs
*** Dad

Wolfsheim
Dec 23, 2003


Raygereio posted:

I don't know if I'd call it unambiguously good. Sure, it's good for the Khans themselves as they thrive in their mighty empire. But it doesn't say if they change their ways and stop being raiders.

It's more that I'm using context clues; all of the 'and then evil poo poo happens' endings say as much explicitly, as we see in the majority of Legion/etc endings. All we know about the Khans is that they let go of their grudge against the NCR and form an empire along with the Followers. Not only does it not mention their bloody reign if terror, but I doubt the implication is that the Followers decided to become raiders.

Like, I get that the Khans do BAD THINGS but the tone seems more along the lines of Jesse Pinkman than anything; kinda dumb, easily led astray, but ultimately not terrible people, even if they've done some bad things.

A Fancy 400 lbs
Jul 23, 2008


War crimes still aren't okay even if you have the moral high ground in the reasons behind the overall conflict and feel really, really sorry afterwards. That's the entire point of the concept of war crimes, there are some things that are so far past the pale that no level of moral high ground beforehand can justify them. There's also the fact that the NCR troopers weren't robots running on targeting circuits that simply told them "if exiting Bitter Springs, then engage". Soldiers can choose to disobey orders, and the fact that they en masse chose following orders in a stupidly level of literalness over thinking "Hey, maybe they didn't mean we should kill children" shows that there's some serious issues with how the NCR trains its soldiers and the attitude it has towards it enemies.

KittyEmpress
Dec 30, 2012

Jam Buddies


Or that the fact that the Khans raise heir kids to shoot the NCR from when they are like 5. Seriously bitter root's few memories of his family was his dad taking him out to shoot NCR citizens for fun.

Which comes into the morality of killing child soldiers, which is probably too deep a discussion for a video game.

Plus House already condoned wiping out the Khans when pushing them from Vegas, the Legion already kills kids, etc. So in terms of the original argument (which is morally superior, house or the NCR) they are in this case both morally corrupt and not great.

The NCR, as stated, is not a holy bastion of good and right. It makes mistakes and has bad elements. But its not as bad as you guys are making it out to be.

House is complicit with wiping out women and children, with no mercy meant. He tells you to kill all of the boomers if they refuse to ally with him. He had the three families and securitron murder khans out of their territory unprovoked.

The NCR at least tries to make amends for its horrible crimes. House doesn't even realize he has done anything wrong, because they are just primitive tribals.

Byzantine
Sep 1, 2007

I admit the deed! Tear up the planks, here! Here, the shining of his hideous teeth!


Nellis AFB is 14 miles from the Vegas Strip. House's defense systems can't shoot down artillery shells at that proximity.

Would NCR tolerate an unfriendly gang controlling the only way into Shady Sands? Would NCR tolerate a bunch of tribals packed to the gills with artillery and nuclear bombs within firing distance of their capital?



Part of the decision for me, though, is that if House wins then the NCR is basically undisturbed, perhaps even improved, and can go on being the shining arsenal of democracy. If NCR wins, House is dead.

Wolfsheim
Dec 23, 2003


KittyEmpress posted:

Or that the fact that the Khans raise heir kids to shoot the NCR from when they are like 5. Seriously bitter root's few memories of his family was his dad taking him out to shoot NCR citizens for fun.

Which comes into the morality of killing child soldiers, which is probably too deep a discussion for a video game.

Plus House already condoned wiping out the Khans when pushing them from Vegas, the Legion already kills kids, etc. So in terms of the original argument (which is morally superior, house or the NCR) they are in this case both morally corrupt and not great.

The NCR, as stated, is not a holy bastion of good and right. It makes mistakes and has bad elements. But its not as bad as you guys are making it out to be.

House is complicit with wiping out women and children, with no mercy meant. He tells you to kill all of the boomers if they refuse to ally with him. He had the three families and securitron murder khans out of their territory unprovoked.

The NCR at least tries to make amends for its horrible crimes. House doesn't even realize he has done anything wrong, because they are just primitive tribals.

Child-killing is like the one awful thing the Legion doesn't do, though?

Also, it's pretty disingenuous to say House condoned or in some way encouraged killing off the Khans; they're just one of many groups who didn't hop aboard the House train. I recall them still having a chip on their shoulder about it, but I don't think he mentions them whatsoever?

SpookyLizard
Feb 17, 2009


The Khans have basically been rebuffed and ejected by the NCR repeatedly. Everytime they've hosed off to another part of town and settled down, the NCR has shown up and ended up moving them off again. The Khans have the right to settle an area and not get evicted by a group of expansionist jerks under the justifications of 'justice' and poo poo.

The NCR can't be the super good guy democracy and freedom guys and the bastion of goodness and all that poo poo and also get to commit genocide and wipe out cultures and poo poo.

Ddraig posted:

Nobody is defending the Khans for being assholes, it's more proving that the NCR are not noble bastions of freedom and can be just as big a bunch of murdering assholes and you cannot justify any atrocity on the basis of 'well they started it', particularly if you're supposedly the good guys.

The Khans were assholes, that doesn't make a war crime against them justified. If you can't extend the same justice to your worst enemy that you would to your own citizens you're literally no better than the savages you're protecting people from.

Look at this guy who gets it.

chiasaur11 posted:

I do.

The people dying is bad.

The culture dying is good.
...
If there was a way to get them to talk, that would be great. (And, for the record, the ending where the NCR forces the survivors onto camps is dickweedery, even if it's pretty human, understandable dickweedery) But as things stand, I can't really bring myself to cry too much when they get what they have coming.

You're literally saying that children deserve to be murdered for the sins of their fathers, and in that case, it's not really murder, it's justice, double justice because your'e wiping out a bad ideology. It's bad to kill them on personal level, but it all evens out because you're wiping out the Khans/Communists/fascists/jews/other cultural/ideological group.

Yasser Arafatwa
Jan 13, 2009



SpookyLizard posted:

The Khans have basically been rebuffed and ejected by the NCR repeatedly. Everytime they've hosed off to another part of town and settled down, the NCR has shown up and ended up moving them off again. The Khans have the right to settle an area and not get evicted by a group of expansionist jerks under the justifications of 'justice' and poo poo.

The NCR can't be the super good guy democracy and freedom guys and the bastion of goodness and all that poo poo and also get to commit genocide and wipe out cultures and poo poo.


Look at this guy who gets it.


You're literally saying that children deserve to be murdered for the sins of their fathers, and in that case, it's not really murder, it's justice, double justice because your'e wiping out a bad ideology. It's bad to kill them on personal level, but it all evens out because you're wiping out the Khans/Communists/fascists/jews/other cultural/ideological group.

It'd be more like wiping out Ku Klux Klan or Westboro Baptist Church ideology, really. Not every ideology is equal or deserves the same recognition or protection as others. Granted I'm not exactly a fan of the "wipe them all out to ensure the ideology dies" argument, but I have no problems with destroying horrifically dangerous or otherwise problematic "cultures" that are just so far outside of reason and normalcy. That's not some kind of fascist argument mind you, and I'm certainly not suggesting that wiping out communist/jews/whatever group you want to suggest is further down some slippery slope, but yeah I think it's pretty easy to draw a line in the sand when it comes to what is actually an acceptable "culture." If your "culture" is based around hate and oppressing others, it's not worth protecting.

Yasser Arafatwa fucked around with this message at Mar 22, 2014 around 04:44

KittyEmpress
Dec 30, 2012

Jam Buddies


But the NCR is fine with leaving independent parts of the country, something people seem to miss. Primm, Novac, Freeside all remain 'free' of NCR control even if the NCR wins (except if Primm's law becomes NCR law). They offer citizenship to the Kings and the rest of Freeside if the Kings and NCR ally, but allow the Kings to say no. And continue sending relief and aid to Freeside despite it not being part of their territory.

This is a big thing you guys seem to be missing.

The Khans were not continually pushed and removed from their land because the NCR was expanding and they refused to become citizens. They were continually pushed and removed from their land because they are loving raiders. They are no better than the Vipers or Fiends, except that some of them realize that 'wow, we kinda are the bad guys'. Arguing that the Khans should have rights and be allowed to murder the NCR because they took their territories is like arguing that the Crips (LA based gang that was really notorious like 10 years ago) deserve the right to kill the police who punished them for killing people on the streets.


If you aren't actively murdering them, the NCR isn't that bad. The Khans, unfortunately, actively murdered them. For a long time.

KittyEmpress fucked around with this message at Mar 22, 2014 around 05:24

Yasser Arafatwa
Jan 13, 2009



Also I feel like the fact that they're referred to as a "tribe" carries way too much baggage, essentially likening them to historically oppressed native people. Which is obviously inaccurate to what the Khans actually are. It's disingenuous to argue that they or their situation is anything like say, the Native Americans or the Aborigines, and the plights they faced at the hands of much stronger cultures acting under expansionist ideals. It's even sillier to compare them to someone like the Jews and much more apt to compare them to the Crips or any other number of literal street gangs that provide a false sense of family and do nothing but cause harm to the communities they reside in.

Raygereio
Nov 12, 2012


Wolfsheim posted:

Child-killing is like the one awful thing the Legion doesn't do, though?
The Legion killed women and children when Caesar wants to send a message. Generally they're taken as slaves instead. Also the Legion uses child soldiers.

Pope Guilty
Nov 6, 2006

The human animal is a beautiful and terrible creature, capable of limitless compassion and unfathomable cruelty.

Raygereio posted:

Also the Legion uses child soldiers.

My god, invincible Legionnaires!

steinrokkan
Apr 2, 2011

This avatar brought to you by the Lowtax Needs a New Spine Fund


Soiled Meat

SpookyLizard posted:

The NCR can't be the super good guy democracy and freedom guys and the bastion of goodness and all that poo poo and also get to commit genocide and wipe out cultures and poo poo.

Stop posting about video games, the Mexican government is committing genocide against drug cartels and illegally expanding into their territory, we must do something about it!

Iretep
Nov 10, 2009


steinrokkan posted:

Stop posting about video games, the Mexican government is committing genocide against drug cartels and illegally expanding into their territory, we must do something about it!

No, we must kill all the drug cartels women and children so their cartel culture can't live on.

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A Fancy 400 lbs
Jul 23, 2008


Yasser Arafatwa posted:

It'd be more like wiping out Ku Klux Klan or Westboro Baptist Church ideology, really. Not every ideology is equal or deserves the same recognition or protection as others.

So it would be okay if I went out and started murdering the kids of KKK and Westboro Baptist Church members? Good to know.

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