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steinrokkan
Apr 2, 2011

This avatar brought to you by the Lowtax Needs a New Spine Fund


Soiled Meat

A Fancy 400 lbs posted:

So it would be okay if I went out and started murdering the kids of KKK and Westboro Baptist Church members? Good to know.

If all collateral and accidental damage to civilians was treated this way Rosevelt and Churchill would be amongst the worst war criminals of all times.

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Pope Guilty
Nov 6, 2006

The human animal is a beautiful and terrible creature, capable of limitless compassion and unfathomable cruelty.

The NCR accidentally murdered some civilians and children, but were upset and remorseful.

The Khans spent decades murdering everybody they could get their hands on.

This is not particularly hard.

Raygereio
Nov 12, 2012


Pope Guilty posted:

The Khans spent decades murdering everybody they could get their hands on.
No, you see the Khans are just misunderstood because murdering and raiding is the Khans' culture and noble tradition.

Raygereio fucked around with this message at Mar 22, 2014 around 09:23

steinrokkan
Apr 2, 2011

This avatar brought to you by the Lowtax Needs a New Spine Fund


Soiled Meat

Pope Guilty posted:

The NCR accidentally murdered some civilians and children, but were upset and remorseful.

They supposedly have taxes, hosed up if true 420 Ron Paul smokes weed everyday

Wolfsheim
Dec 23, 2003


It's weird to say the Khans are 'just raiders' when almost every faction in Fallout either started that way or basically still are considering the whole post-apocalytia thing. If we're using it to mean 'group of people who kill to defend themselves or obtain resources, sometimes aggressively' then almost every significant faction falls under that definition, including every player-character and his/her band of companions.

The only noteworthy group that doesn't is the Followers, who, again, seem to not have a huge problem with the Khans. The canon ending (I assume anyway, the good ending is always canon) suggests that maybe when the Khans aren't struggling to survive and being hunted down for crimes committed decades ago and a hundred miles away, they're not total assholes.

It's also funny that, if you setup a truce between the Khans and the NCR, they still gently caress them over in the ending, basically putting them all in an internment camp and waiting for them to die. Summary executions would've been more merciful, Christ.

Rush Limbo
Sep 5, 2005

its with a full house


steinrokkan posted:

If all collateral and accidental damage to civilians was treated this way Rosevelt and Churchill would be amongst the worst war criminals of all times.

Churchill authorised some terrible poo poo and even as a British citizen I can recognize that. The bombing of Dresden was one such atrocity that had virtually no military benefit, it being pointless dick waving. Then there was Hiroshima and Nagasaki on the US side.

Every side committed terrible acts, it's just a matter of scale. None were morally justified and to pretend they were is insulting.

Wolfsheim
Dec 23, 2003


Raygereio posted:

No, you see the Khans are just misunderstood because murdering and raiding is the Khans' culture and noble tradition.

I agree. If only we could round up those savages and put them all in camps! Oh wait, that literally happens in the pro-NCR ending

steinrokkan
Apr 2, 2011

This avatar brought to you by the Lowtax Needs a New Spine Fund


Soiled Meat

Ddraig posted:

Every side committed terrible acts, it's just a matter of scale. None were morally justified and to pretend they were is insulting.

Does it mean the truth was in the middle and both sides should have been allowed to live under status quo, or that the Allies were justified in their cause while simultaneously embarrassed about particular operation?

Wolfsheim posted:

I agree. If only we could round up those savages and put them all in camps! Oh wait, that literally happens in the pro-NCR ending

If only they could go on murdering and selling drugs to show the white man his own savagery.

Khans aren't an ethnic group or a culture any more than Italian Mafia was a proud expression of cultural heritage in 1930s New York. They are a criminal gang.

I let them go and reform in my playthroughs, but I don't see why anybody would see need to reinvent them in their current shape as anything more than a pretty short lived collection of criminals.

steinrokkan fucked around with this message at Mar 22, 2014 around 09:48

MisterBibs
Jul 17, 2010

dolla dolla
bill y'all


Fun Shoe

Unrelated to the current discussion, I was curious about something that (having gone through the entire thread before posting) hasn't been discussed:

While you can design your Courier however you want, what would be a reasonably 'accurate' character build that would represent an actual courier in the Fallout series? Not someone trying to effectively do Quest X or DLC Y, but an actual person whose job is running from there and back with stuff.

This is what I thought:

STR: 6 (Having to lug a bunch of stuff from place to place)
PER: 7 (Rationalizing 'perception' as 'sense of direction and orientation')
END: 7 (Gotta be hardy and of higher-than-average constitution to schlep yourself from here and back, which isn't easy in the FO universe)
CHA: 4 (Probably alone most of the time)
INT: 5
AGI: 5
LUK: 6 (Have to be lucky to survive)

Tagged Skills:
Guns (most common ranged weapons / ammo in the wasteland, for defense)
Barter (You're not actively selling anything, just courying, but you're going to want to try and get a little bit more money out of each trip)
Survival (Important to understand the various 'natural' foodstuffs where you're going, and how to prepare it into meals/healing tools at campfires, not cities)

A Fancy 400 lbs
Jul 23, 2008


steinrokkan posted:

If all collateral and accidental damage to civilians was treated this way Rosevelt and Churchill would be amongst the worst war criminals of all times.

Correct, despite being better than the Axis, the Allies committed plenty of war crimes and the failure to convict anyone for acts like the bombings of Dresden or Nagano are a huge failure of the international justice system.

Wolfsheim
Dec 23, 2003


steinrokkan posted:

Khans aren't an ethnic group or a culture any more than Italian Mafia was a proud expression of cultural heritage in 1930s New York. They are a criminal gang.

I let them go and reform in my playthroughs, but I don't see why anybody would see need to reinvent them in their current shape as anything more than a pretty short lived collection of criminals.

I think someone forgot to tell the writers that, because they seem to treat the Khans like an actual tribe of people with a cultural identity that spans generations, akin to the other tribes that are caught in the conflict in the Mojave and not, say, a loose coalition of criminals like the powder gangers. Whoops!

Meyers-Briggs Testicle
Aug 13, 2012

But without the hero, there is no Event.


Buglord

MisterBibs posted:

While you can design your Courier however you want, what would be a reasonably 'accurate' character build that would represent an actual courier in the Fallout series?

No idea, but for the actual courier player character, STR/PER/INT/AGI/END/CHR: ??? LCK: 10

steinrokkan
Apr 2, 2011

This avatar brought to you by the Lowtax Needs a New Spine Fund


Soiled Meat

Wolfsheim posted:

I think someone forgot to tell the writers that, because they seem to treat the Khans like an actual tribe of people with a cultural identity that spans generations, akin to the other tribes that are caught in the conflict in the Mojave and not, say, a loose coalition of criminals like the powder gangers. Whoops!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmW3xVYQcPE
What a beautiful tightly knitted group of people, pity they are being harassed by the expansionist jerks from the government.

socialsecurity
Aug 30, 2003


By the time I usually get to the Kahns I've gotten tired of my playthrough and they start blabing about some fetch quests or some crap and I just kill them all everytime, one day I will go to them first and actually do those quests.

Pope Guilty
Nov 6, 2006

The human animal is a beautiful and terrible creature, capable of limitless compassion and unfathomable cruelty.

socialsecurity posted:

By the time I usually get to the Kahns I've gotten tired of my playthrough and they start blabing about some fetch quests or some crap and I just kill them all everytime, one day I will go to them first and actually do those quests.

If you've got Science you can use it to teach them how to make more/better drugs.

Nobody Interesting
Mar 29, 2013

Stay frosty, America.


Everyone in the wasteland starts as dumb raiders. The Khans with enough years and through good enough leadership might actually turn into a gang of stand up guys who don't surprise sex or murder for no reason.

Pope Guilty
Nov 6, 2006

The human animal is a beautiful and terrible creature, capable of limitless compassion and unfathomable cruelty.

Nobody Interesting posted:

Everyone in the wasteland starts as dumb raiders. The Khans with enough years and through good enough leadership might actually turn into a gang of stand up guys who don't surprise sex or murder for no reason.

Considering it hasn't happened in what, 80 years? How long do you just let some dudes surprise sex and murder and steal in the hopes that eventually they'll get sick of getting their way all the time?

Raygereio
Nov 12, 2012


Pope Guilty posted:

Considering it hasn't happened in what, 80 years?
As of New Vegas it's been 140 years since the 4 groups who'd become the NCR, Jackals, Vipers and Khans crawled out of vault 15.

Rex Deckard
Jul 15, 2004



Wolfsheim posted:

I agree. If only we could round up those savages and put them all in camps! Oh wait, that literally happens in the pro-NCR ending

No it doesn't, only if you do it the nasty way and use them as shock troops by killing Papa Khan and replacing him with Regis. The "truce" is known to be false even before you seal it. If you handle the Khan's the right way, guess what, they do just fine.

"During the Battle of Hoover Dam, the Great Khans quickly evacuated Red Rock Canyon and headed north and east into the plains of Wyoming. There, they reconnected with the Followers of the Apocalypse and rebuilt their strength. Bolstered by ancient knowledge of governance, economics, and transportation, they carved a mighty empire out of the ruins of the Northwest."

Have them break alliance, and then tell Papa Khan go make their own legacy. End result they do just fine. The Courier with the knowledge ahead of the meeting with the Khan's knowing what Moore has in mind for them can do the right thing and basically tell them that they should get out of the area.

Your rebuttal to that is that they shouldn't have to, but you are not given the choice to convince the NCR otherwise. So the decent thing to do in advance is help them as best you can.

This applies for the Brotherhood, the Kings, and the Followers as well. You can salvage them if you apply your knowledge and decency in advance to help them. And't the karma hit you take with the NCR for creating the truce between the Brotherhood and the NCR is not a problem at that point, so it can be seen as a minor tick down because some of the higher ups now know that you are not a robot, but more even-handed then how Moore wants you to be. Guess what, that is normal internal politics.

Unfortunately the NCR still needs to learn like most early governments, but they are not as evil as you try to make them sound, but you will always try to twist things to make it seem like they are.

Nephthys
Mar 27, 2010


Pope Guilty posted:

The NCR accidentally murdered some civilians and children, but were upset and remorseful.

The Khans spent decades murdering everybody they could get their hands on.

This is not particularly hard.

I don't see why the argument needs to progress past that one word. Bitter Springs was a colossal gently caress-up. It was terrible, but poo poo happens.


I do find it odd that the reaction to massacring the Brotherhood was 'eh, they'll just make trouble if you let them live, its better this way' but with a group as objectively terrible in pretty much every respect as the Khans its all sympathy and tears.

StandardVC10
Feb 6, 2007



Megamarm

The Khans are pretty unpleasant, but I prefer to have them evacuate to Wyoming because I don't like turning entire groups hostile that didn't shoot at me first. Unless they're the Legion.

edit: also their ammunition vendor is one of the best in the game

Mak0rz
Aug 2, 2008

THE WHIPPED CREAM GENOCIDE BROUHAHA


Finally started playing this after picking it up from a bargain bin at the drugstore ages ago. I can't put it down.

I really need help dealing with Legion Assassins because the fuckers keep mowing me down like crazy. They're especially bad in the Helios One/El Dorado region. I can hardly go anywhere without being ambushed

wafflemoose
Apr 10, 2009



Mak0rz posted:

I really need help dealing with Legion Assassins because the fuckers keep mowing me down like crazy. They're especially bad in the Helios One/El Dorado region. I can hardly go anywhere without being ambushed

Maybe don't piss off the Legion next time?

A Fancy 400 lbs
Jul 23, 2008


Yeah, pissing off the Legion may feel satisfying when you first do it, but that satisfaction is quickly replaced by annoyance/fear depending on how good/bad you are at the game.

EDIT: Also jesus gently caress, Dead Money with jsawyer.esp. I really want to get this over quickly.

A Fancy 400 lbs fucked around with this message at Mar 22, 2014 around 17:15

Wolfsheim
Dec 23, 2003


Rex Deckard posted:

No it doesn't, only if you do it the nasty way and use them as shock troops by killing Papa Khan and replacing him with Regis. The "truce" is known to be false even before you seal it. If you handle the Khan's the right way, guess what, they do just fine.

"During the Battle of Hoover Dam, the Great Khans quickly evacuated Red Rock Canyon and headed north and east into the plains of Wyoming. There, they reconnected with the Followers of the Apocalypse and rebuilt their strength. Bolstered by ancient knowledge of governance, economics, and transportation, they carved a mighty empire out of the ruins of the Northwest."

Have them break alliance, and then tell Papa Khan go make their own legacy. End result they do just fine. The Courier with the knowledge ahead of the meeting with the Khan's knowing what Moore has in mind for them can do the right thing and basically tell them that they should get out of the area.

Your rebuttal to that is that they shouldn't have to, but you are not given the choice to convince the NCR otherwise. So the decent thing to do in advance is help them as best you can.

This applies for the Brotherhood, the Kings, and the Followers as well. You can salvage them if you apply your knowledge and decency in advance to help them. And't the karma hit you take with the NCR for creating the truce between the Brotherhood and the NCR is not a problem at that point, so it can be seen as a minor tick down because some of the higher ups now know that you are not a robot, but more even-handed then how Moore wants you to be. Guess what, that is normal internal politics.

Unfortunately the NCR still needs to learn like most early governments, but they are not as evil as you try to make them sound, but you will always try to twist things to make it seem like they are.

I just think it's funny that the NCR accidentally commits a massacre, and they're so sorry about it that when a treaty is actually willingly brokered by the Khans, they literally stick them in a camp as far as possible from civilization and wait for them all to die.

Mak0rz posted:

Finally started playing this after picking it up from a bargain bin at the drugstore ages ago. I can't put it down.

I really need help dealing with Legion Assassins because the fuckers keep mowing me down like crazy. They're especially bad in the Helios One/El Dorado region. I can hardly go anywhere without being ambushed

As weird as it sounds, put on a disguise, even an NCR one. It will reset your karma to neutral and they will stop chasing you (random Legion troops you meet will still be hostile obviously, but there's not many of those north of Novac).

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012

by R. Guyovich


I actually didn't know people hated the legion assassination squads so much. I loved them because I could loot their big dumb hammers and sell them for hefty amounts of caps between towns.

PootieTang
Aug 2, 2011

by XyloJW


Yasser Arafatwa posted:

It'd be more like wiping out Ku Klux Klan or Westboro Baptist Church ideology,

Have you ever heard of Waco?

And this thread really should be renamed to white supremacy or something, because for every person using logical arguments like "Bitter Springs was an accident" or "Although they sometimes commit atrocities, they're still better than the alternatives and actually try to avoid them" but holy poo poo at the amount of people who try to justify the atrocities themselves.



Adding to the above discussion though, I had assumed I was just awful at the game because Legionary assassins always seem to wipe me out in five seconds unless I save scum. Do they have like, hidden buffs or something? Because none of my weapons seem to do any loving damage to them but they seem to cut through my health like a hot knife through butter.

And I checked their loving gear, their armour and weapons shouldn't be poo poo compared to mine. What the hell, legion?

A Fancy 400 lbs
Jul 23, 2008


Neurolimal posted:

I actually didn't know people hated the legion assassination squads so much. I loved them because I could loot their big dumb hammers and sell them for hefty amounts of caps between towns.

It's not so much hate as much as its "Really? Another one? You fuckers are persistent."

KittyEmpress
Dec 30, 2012

Jam Buddies


Speaking of the legion, I was doing something terrible and planning to do a legion run. Unforunately, for some reason the undercover fru-whatever that brings you the key to the legion storehouse... is still flagged as Legion. I was in the middle of a bunch of NCR when he ran up to me and was killed. And the key was not on his body.

Oh well, guess it's time to kill all the Legion again

Wolfsheim
Dec 23, 2003


PootieTang posted:

Adding to the above discussion though, I had assumed I was just awful at the game because Legionary assassins always seem to wipe me out in five seconds unless I save scum. Do they have like, hidden buffs or something? Because none of my weapons seem to do any loving damage to them but they seem to cut through my health like a hot knife through butter.

And I checked their loving gear, their armour and weapons shouldn't be poo poo compared to mine. What the hell, legion?

I think it's more that you can face them early enough that their middling DT and weapons are still going to protect them pretty well against the gear you have, especially since the patch that gave some of them Centurion armor and 12.7MM weaponry. Plus there are like six of them.

A good ambush point is actually that little NCR camp at the outskirts of Nelson, because the few soldiers and one ranger stationed there can even the odds a little bit. Just try to get the quest to free the captives done first because that ranger is likely going to die.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Mak0rz posted:

Finally started playing this after picking it up from a bargain bin at the drugstore ages ago. I can't put it down.

I really need help dealing with Legion Assassins because the fuckers keep mowing me down like crazy. They're especially bad in the Helios One/El Dorado region. I can hardly go anywhere without being ambushed

The weapon you choose can make a big difference. Legion Assassins have tough armour, so you want to pick a weapon with a high DAM stat (DAM is damage per attack, important for heavy armour; DPS is damage per second and is important against enemies with weak armour like cazadores and Jackals/Vipers) like a rifle, with armour-piercing ammo if you have it. Melee/Unarmed weapons do bonus damage in VATS if I remember right(plus the assassins attack in a tight pack usually and it's easier to swing wildly than keep aiming) and if you get hold of a Ripper, Thermic Lance or Chainsaw they ignore armour entirely.

PsychoInternetHawk
Apr 4, 2011

Perhaps, if one wishes to remain an individual in the midst of the teeming multitudes, one must make oneself grotesque.

Grimey Drawer

Early game you absolutely need explosives to deal with Legion Assassins because Centurion armor is stupid thick for when you can first fight them. The GRA grenade rifle is pretty awesome, and dynamite is loving everywhere early on, so use that. Pissing off the Legion early on is sort of a high-risk/high-reward venture. They're way, way stronger than you, but if you can kill them you can have high-end equipment and be rolling in caps very early on.

Also the game establishes like ten times that the Khans have basically adapted to the chaotic shittiness of the Mojave really, really well but would probably not be terrible people were they in other circumstances, unlike the Powder Gangers or Fiends. This is basically confirmed by one of the endings in which they go off and do pretty well for themselves without being a bunch of drug-peddling murderers.

For gently caress's sake if there's a single overarching theme in NV's factions it's that ensuring "goodness" comes at the expense of crippling bureaucracy and general mediocrity. If you want to quickly advance technology, ensure that the mistakes of the past aren't repeated, or provide a meritocratic society for all (minus women), you'd better be prepared to bury a shitload of innocent corpses to make it happen. The Khans are awesome at functioning in the Mojave and are really capable of fluidly adapting to any situation. Turns out that also requires being kind of lovely, which is why the only way to make them not terrible is to put them in a position where they don't have to adapt.

StandardVC10
Feb 6, 2007



Megamarm

Neurolimal posted:

I actually didn't know people hated the legion assassination squads so much. I loved them because I could loot their big dumb hammers and sell them for hefty amounts of caps between towns.

After the fifth or sixth one, they really start to take me out of the game's fiction because they're so tough relative to everything else the Legion has, yet at the same time so repetitive in their tactics. Why has the Legion not given this incredible gear (trail carbines, 12.7 SMGs, super sledges) to anyone in their army who could actually use it in a strategically helpful way against the NCR? Or, if they really want me dead, try something that would actually catch me off guard? The Legion is clearly capable of some crazy outside-the-box covert operations, so what are they doing just sending four of their toughs to shoot at me until they die every three days?

Byzantine
Sep 1, 2007

I admit the deed! Tear up the planks, here! Here, the shining of his hideous teeth!


I hit an assassin group with the Sun Laser. They stood back up and shot my head off.

So clearly the Legion is the only true option because they're all Achilles.

KittyEmpress
Dec 30, 2012

Jam Buddies


Byzantine posted:

I hit an assassin group with the Sun Laser. They stood back up and shot my head off.

So clearly the Legion is the only true option because they're all Achilles.

I wish that laser was worth using. It's just... not. An anti material rifle with explosive rounds does more damage in as wide an area as hitting something with sun lasers.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012


Byzantine posted:

I hit an assassin group with the Sun Laser. They stood back up and shot my head off.

So clearly the Legion is the only true option because they're all Achilles.

Or it's another reason to go for the NCR.

Hectoring those bastards is much more worthy.

Wolfsheim
Dec 23, 2003


KittyEmpress posted:

I wish that laser was worth using. It's just... not. An anti material rifle with explosive rounds does more damage in as wide an area as hitting something with sun lasers.

The trouble is also that whatever you're shooting at becomes aware and hostile during the warm-up. I tried killing Caesar with it and the second it started I was punched to death by his Praetorian guard.

SpookyLizard
Feb 17, 2009


KittyEmpress posted:

I wish that laser was worth using. It's just... not. An anti material rifle with explosive rounds does more damage in as wide an area as hitting something with sun lasers.

That's sort of the point.

socialsecurity
Aug 30, 2003


StandardVC10 posted:

After the fifth or sixth one, they really start to take me out of the game's fiction because they're so tough relative to everything else the Legion has, yet at the same time so repetitive in their tactics. Why has the Legion not given this incredible gear (trail carbines, 12.7 SMGs, super sledges) to anyone in their army who could actually use it in a strategically helpful way against the NCR? Or, if they really want me dead, try something that would actually catch me off guard? The Legion is clearly capable of some crazy outside-the-box covert operations, so what are they doing just sending four of their toughs to shoot at me until they die every three days?

If they are to the point of sending the squads after you then killng YOU is the best way to strategically hurt the NCR.

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Meyers-Briggs Testicle
Aug 13, 2012

But without the hero, there is no Event.


Buglord

Wolfsheim posted:

The trouble is also that whatever you're shooting at becomes aware and hostile during the warm-up. I tried killing Caesar with it and the second it started I was punched to death by his Praetorian guard.

"Hey this guy's gun is pointing gigantic red space lasers at me, better not do anything", said not-Caesar

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