|
Iretep posted:Yes its nice that you can make the subjugation of the mojave go more smoothly for the NCR, but that doesent mean 10 years from now when they are expanding further that things will be sunshine and butterflies. Im more ranting about if a independent mojave is better since NCR has consistently shown that it isnt exactly a worthy state to be under. So basically your argument is good stuff is actually bad because you personally mistrust the group doing the good things. Look, I went free Mojave too, but the simple truth of the matter is that sometimes a strong centralized government has the resources to more efficiently provide aid to a region. Especially when paired with an organization that genuinely understands the needs that region has. Long term the NCR might not be the best thing for the Mojave, I actually think that too, but they are the group with the capacity to provide the most good for the most people right here and right now. I can understand why people would value that immediate relief over a hypothetically better future that may never actually come to pass.
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2018 22:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 21:52 |
|
|
Space Cadet Omoly posted:So basically your argument is good stuff is actually bad because you personally mistrust the group doing the good things. I also feel like the historical context is important here. The NCR became the de facto (and arguably de jure) authority in the region about a decade ago, when they signed the Ranger Unification Treaty with the closest thing the Vegas region had to a government. House waking up came before that, but he was sitting around doing nothing until after the NCR had explored the region, including the dam.
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2018 22:38
|
|
|
Iretep posted:A little bit of charity work done to an area youre going to take over isnt going to mean they are going to be actually the best option for the mojave. As ive said NCR is mainly concerned about its core voter areas, they dont have a history of being very good at defending their fringes. Well meaning doesent cut it, people want actually functioning defence. Well meaning isnt enough for people being murdered by raiders because the NCR army is too big and busy serving the intrests of brahmin barons on the other side of the country. The whole situation in the game is horrible and it has been going on for years. A government that cant protect its citizens isnt a government id want to be in, and im not cruel enough to force the mojave experience it as well. The NCR taking over the mojave isnt going to improve on this either, its going to make it worse. I feel like you're reading a lot into the NCR that isn't there, and making it out to be far worse than it actually is.
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2018 22:40
|
|
|
Acebuckeye13 posted:I feel like you're reading a lot into the NCR that isn't there, and making it out to be far worse than it actually is. And i feel some people are emotionally attached to the NCR because they did some charity work. To me the fact that ncr cant protect its borders for literal decades is a pretty red sign that they arent worth being taken over by.
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2018 22:44
|
|
|
Iretep posted:And i feel some people are emotionally attached to the NCR because they did some charity work. To me the fact that ncr cant protect its borders for literal decades is a pretty red sign that they arent worth being taken over by. So because raiders still exist on some level, the NCR is a sham? Guess we found the Caesar's Legion player, guys!
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2018 22:46
|
|
|
People love the NCR for two major gameplay reasons. 1. You can convince them to not attack defenseless doctors. 2. You can convince them to let fascists survive.
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2018 22:47
|
|
|
Or, you know, they think democracy is actually a good thing as opposed to assisting 200 year old megalomaniacs in turning the Mojave into another snowglobe.
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2018 22:50
|
|
|
Acebuckeye13 posted:So because raiders still exist on some level, the NCR is a sham? if a bunch of retarded tribals can keep their borders secure why cant the ncr. hmmmm what could the reason be..... oh its because they are too busy expanding constantly. oops who could have seen that happen *continues to expand*
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2018 22:54
|
|
|
Iretep posted:And i feel some people are emotionally attached to the NCR because they did some charity work. To me the fact that ncr cant protect its borders for literal decades is a pretty red sign that they arent worth being taken over by. But... they can. This is the boonies of the boonies, mainly populated by people who moved out because "dad-gum government". The home territories are, by all accounts, quite nice, and rather peaceful when the Brotherhood of Steel isn't nuking them for no good reason. The NCR also is capable of co-existing with non hostile powers, as seen in the Freeside and Brotherhood endings. If you don't gently caress with them, they'll generally try their best not to gently caress with you. It's not their fault that "gently caress with the NCR!" has become a local motto. It IS their fault that "gently caress with the NCR!" often leads to "No, gently caress you! And everyone nearby! And your loving dog!", which is where the Courier has to come in. NCR's the best option of a bad set, maybe even an actively good option, but there's a reason the Followers describe their job as cleaning up the NCR's mess, and there's a reason they're so loving overworked.
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2018 22:57
|
|
|
which would you rather have, a secure life without raiders or getting killed by raiders while your goverment is shaking hands with a bunch of techno barbarians who are taking all your armys power armor?
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2018 23:03
|
|
|
Arcsquad12 posted:The NCR Khan alliance doesn't end well for the Khans, with them getting absorbed into the NCR somewhat unwillingly. It's better for them to take off to Wyoming and form an empire with Followers assistance. i will never understand why some people seem to think letting a raider tribe form an empire is somehow a good thing. Acebuckeye13 posted:Or, you know, they think democracy is actually a good thing as opposed to assisting 200 year old megalomaniacs in turning the Mojave into another snowglobe.
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2018 23:03
|
|
|
The Khans are naughty boys with hearts of gold and they'll run a good empire
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2018 23:20
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:But... they can. This is the boonies of the boonies, mainly populated by people who moved out because "dad-gum government". The home territories are, by all accounts, quite nice, and rather peaceful when the Brotherhood of Steel isn't nuking them for no good reason.
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2018 23:21
|
|
|
I feel like the way that the independent New Vegas ending leaves the outlying regions of the Mojave on their own without any new infrastructure or support means that they're all pretty defenseless for whatever new warlord makes an approach or whenever the NCR makes another push east. Not to mention the fact that the populace of the Mojave has already started to lean pretty heavily on NCR social programs and protection (especially because of the devastation from the NCR's war) and that's gonna make everything fall apart when the NCR pulls out with no replacement. Acebuckeye13 posted:Or, you know, they think democracy is actually a good thing as opposed to assisting 200 year old megalomaniacs in turning the Mojave into another snowglobe. I have my doubts as to whether the NCR will really prioritize giving the Mojave the vote and fair representation in the federal government. In fact, if Kimball's war turns out successful, that'll probably reinforce his grip over the federal government, and it won't matter if there is dissenting opinion against him in the Mojave. And when the NCR gets in its next big expansionist war, against god knows who, New Vegas will be getting attacked by whatever new enemy they find, just like Searchlight or Boulder City, only this time it won't have an expert wheeler and dealer and his army of robots to defend it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2018 23:32
|
|
|
The people who are really into the NCR's super fair democracy need to remember that the government is pretty weak too, which means that the NCR has a lot more in common with the mercenary capitalism of House than they would like to admit. You hear a few stories like this, with the Van Graff's overall storyline, the way the Crimson Caravan can effectively break the law whenever it feels like, etc. I think the worst one of the lot though is the brahmin barons; talking to Walter Phebus should make it pretty clear how things work in the NCR. It's a lot like the Mojave where people with more guns take whatever they want, except in the NCR, they're protected by lawmakers too so they can call in the government's resources, whereas the smaller ranchers like Phebus are just hosed. Forgive me if I think bringing this to Vegas is maybe not so great, and they'd to better off being self-governed or at ruled by an autocrat that is disinterested and not actively making things worse.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2018 00:02
|
|
|
I learned today that you can beat the game without ever confronting Benny or even going inside the Tops. It blew my mind.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2018 00:21
|
|
|
opposable thumbs.db posted:I learned today that you can beat the game without ever confronting Benny or even going inside the Tops. It blew my mind. Popping Benny in the face is usually my second stop after getting my player home from House, so I've legitimately never even considered that
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2018 00:25
|
|
|
opposable thumbs.db posted:I learned today that you can beat the game without ever confronting Benny or even going inside the Tops. It blew my mind. But doesn't he carry the platinum chip required for plot progress?
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2018 00:27
|
|
|
Honestly, that's a pretty good reason why the NCR needs to kill House to be successful in the Mojave. He's good enough at playing the capitalism game and has enough resources that he could end up running the NCR in a century. It's only his hubris in refusing to give up the city he built that makes that not an option.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2018 00:29
|
|
|
ditty bout my clitty posted:But doesn't he carry the platinum chip required for plot progress? Its only required to progress with House and Yes Man (because the Chip is required for an independent Mojave) and Caesar (because you can only meet him after meeting Benny). The NCR route never requires you to meet Benny or get the Chip
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2018 00:33
|
|
|
ditty bout my clitty posted:But doesn't he carry the platinum chip required for plot progress? Not for the NCR!
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2018 00:33
|
|
|
2house2fly posted:Its only required to progress with House and Yes Man (because the Chip is required for an independent Mojave) and Caesar (because you can only meet him after meeting Benny). The NCR route never requires you to meet Benny or get the Chip gently caress. Reinstalling.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2018 00:45
|
|
|
Also for the cow tipping
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2018 01:04
|
|
|
Alright, I'm on my best effort so far to play the Legion plot line, making a relatively direct beeline through the main plot quests. Just blew up the securitrons under the Fort and chopped Benny into dog food in the arena. I genuinely have no idea how this plays out as you go farther, so it's pretty cool to see different quests and plot lines. It's a fists/explosives focused character, so the Boomers are my next stop, and it would be neat if the Legion eventually gives me a ballistic fist for good behavior.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2018 01:07
|
|
|
Wingnut Ninja posted:Alright, I'm on my best effort so far to play the Legion plot line, making a relatively direct beeline through the main plot quests. Just blew up the securitrons under the Fort and chopped Benny into dog food in the arena. I genuinely have no idea how this plays out as you go farther, so it's pretty cool to see different quests and plot lines. It's a fists/explosives focused character, so the Boomers are my next stop, and it would be neat if the Legion eventually gives me a ballistic fist for good behavior. Orrrrrr you couuuld sneak attack crit a praetorian and take his. As long as nobody sees it, it's not wrong! p.s. If you have not spoken to Lucius in Caesar's tent & are doing an unarmed playthrough, loving do it. He teaches you something really fun.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2018 01:33
|
|
|
Raygereio posted:Going "Democracy! Hoorah!" is kind of intentionally ignoring the problems with things like imperialism and corruption the NCR has though. While House wants to preserve an idealized image of the past in his snowglobe, the NCR is busy trying to recreate copy of the old world and its sins in their snowglobe. Maybe it won't work out. Maybe things will reach a breaking point before people get together and fix things. But the structure of the NCR gives the people in the region the best tools to try and address the issues that face them all. I think a pro-NCR independent ending is probably best, and it's the first one I went with, but who's to say that won't just lead to another war in a generation when the NCR gets insecure about being energy-dependent on a tiny neighboring city state. The NCR might not give many opportunities for local cultures that don't fit in (Khans, Boomers, Brotherhood, etc.), but after enough time most people in Primm, Novac, Goodsprings, and Vegas itself will just be regular NCR citizens, and the Mojave will just be another NCR region. Probably a pretty important and well-looked-after one given the strategic value of the dam.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2018 02:28
|
|
|
aniviron posted:Orrrrrr you couuuld sneak attack crit a praetorian and take his. As long as nobody sees it, it's not wrong! Yeah, but that's how I always get a ballistic fist. I want to see if they'll just give me one for being sufficiently evil. And I did get the praetorian move from Lucius, though I haven't tried it out yet.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2018 02:35
|
|
|
Acebuckeye13 posted:Only way to do it is to go NCR and get the Followers to provide medical support during the battle. (IIRC they actually had to patch this ending in, originally it wasn't an option and the Followers would get screwed no matter what you did) It's not the ending itself that's patched in, it's just that the dialog options to make it available (talking to Julie Farkas about the dam) were bugged and a patch had to restore them.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2018 02:40
|
|
|
Wingnut Ninja posted:Yeah, but that's how I always get a ballistic fist. I want to see if they'll just give me one for being sufficiently evil. Oh man, absolutely try that out. Just run at someone and power attack. That and the move you get from Veronica are my bread and butter with unarmed playthroughs, they bring Unarmed from good to absurd.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2018 03:09
|
|
|
You haven't lived in life until you've knocked a deathclaw over the Lonesome Road highways.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2018 03:30
|
|
|
Eiba posted:Democracy means that stuff is reformable if enough people can be made to care. So NCR should just consume everything in its path until the Invisible Hand of Democracy makes everything better.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2018 04:16
|
|
|
Byzantine posted:So NCR should just consume everything in its path until the Invisible Hand of Democracy makes everything better. The NCR is the group most proven to be able to play nice with things it doesn't consume. The Brotherhood NCR war wasn't started by the NCR, after all, and the Followers still have academies in the NCR heartland, despite recent disputes. Hell, other than the Khans, who earned no sympathy over the past century, you can just look at the endings to see who's best at the whole coexisting bit. But I'm sure House, who refuses to do anything for Vegas until he has the NCR around to leach off of, and who only lets the Kings survive if they start pointless fights with the NCR, is going to be a perfect saint.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2018 04:29
|
|
|
Byzantine posted:So NCR should just consume everything in its path until the Invisible Hand of Democracy makes everything better. I mean it's that, the visible hand of fascism, the visible hand of hyper-capitalism, or the visible hand of me and my thirty killbots who are programmed to explode anything I think is unpleasant. I use my explosive murderbots to bring anarcho-syndicalism to the Mojave along with my buddy Reformed Joshua Graham Who Doesn't Kill People That Are Surrendering, but otherwise F:NV is short on perfect options.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2018 04:46
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:But I'm sure House, who refuses to do anything for Vegas until he has the NCR around to leach off of Neither Vegas nor the Dam would exist without House.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2018 04:52
|
|
|
Byzantine posted:Neither Vegas nor the Dam would exist without House. Nor would Gamorrah and its slaves or the army of deathbots that turn on a dime or I imagine the White Glove Society. Plus House refuses to share his immortality with the general Mojave public. New Vegas is a shithole and the literal corpse-man who refuses to let go of absolute power doesn't get brownie points for protecting a thing he didn't build. Also I don't think HELIOS One was targeted at all.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2018 04:57
|
|
|
TGLT posted:Nor would Gamorrah and its slaves or the army of deathbots that turn on a dime or I imagine the White Glove Society. Plus House refuses to share his immortality with the general Mojave public. To be fair, Mr. House can't share the secret of immortality because he never quite figured that out. What he invented was more of a one person pickling system. He can preserve life, not extend it indefinitely, and only at a great cost and in a way that's extremely impractical.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2018 05:06
|
|
|
TGLT posted:Also I don't think HELIOS One was targeted at all. Why wouldn't it have been? Power plants were super high priority targets in the real cold war, and power plants that power orbital death lasers even more so I imagine.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2018 05:07
|
|
|
aniviron posted:Why wouldn't it have been? Power plants were super high priority targets in the real cold war, and power plants that power orbital death lasers even more so I imagine. Hoover dam was explicitly said to have been targeted (I think?) but I don't remember it being mentioned in HELIOS One's background. It makes sense, but I don't remember it being brought up. Space Cadet Omoly posted:To be fair, Mr. House can't share the secret of immortality because he never quite figured that out. What he invented was more of a one person pickling system. He can preserve life, not extend it indefinitely, and only at a great cost and in a way that's extremely impractical. Corpse-kings get no passes. Honestly though even if he doesn't understand it (it's been a while and I still need to finish FO3 before my next NV run), he could at least hand over some of the tech or let people check it out so they could maybe replicate it. He's got a whole society of scientists and thinkers right at his doorstop that would probably be happy to look into it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2018 05:14
|
|
|
Obsidian didn't make the NCR knights in shining armor, and included bloodthirsty characters who were military officers in a long, drawn out war. It gave the leader of the genocidal rape army a rationale for his actions beyond evil for the sake of evil. But there's a still pretty strong contrast between the NCR and the Legion. I don't know if its because decades of video games featuring color coded morality choices and villains as very visible monsters have made even the not very nuanced depiction of the factions in New Vegas seem relatively so, or if the internet just attracts contrarians, but it's a pretty tortured read to say that they're close to equivalent. I know that the Legion home territory (like the NCR home territory) is supposed to be relatively more stable and safe than the Mojave, which is the front in a war. But to what extent can a Legion officer rape or murder a citizen at whim in their home territory? I honestly don't know the answer to that question, and suppose that they may have some sort of rule of law to prevent uprisings and allow for some kind of economic development, but a state that can arbitrarily inflict violence at will because it wants to is no better than any of the raider clans the Legion supposedly protects against. Consider this: The NCR murdered civilians, including children, as part of the backstory. It's an event that's scene with shame and sorrow in the NCR, and one of the major quests in the game revolves around helping a veteran of that massacre come to terms with the fact he was part of something horrid, and that he knows is horrid. But both House and the Legion routinely kill civilians as a matter of policy, without remorse. The NCR has a bloodthirty and ruthless officer, who stands out compared to the other NCR leaders in the game. But her views are mainstream doctrine in the Legion. I think the game endings are also pretty explicit that in the independent endings, things quickly fall apart. The best independent ending involves upgrading an army of robots. In a fantasy land, maybe the Courier is able to guide the region peacefully backed by robots, but the Courier will die at some point. The NCR is the only entity with a legal-rational framework for its authority; all others are based on the charisma of a single person (including the "Independent" ending) and therefore only the NCR has the hope for creating a long term, stable state.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2018 05:44
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 21:52 |
|
|
I don't know if we actually have any hard information to go on for the state of democracy in the NCR and how effectively they assimilate their conquered territories. Most of what we have to go on is either propaganda or hearsay. I don't think anybody really talks much about voting, or knowing their congressman. At best there may be a few offhand references to voting for the president, which isn't on its own a description of an institutionally robust democracy. The NCR's already de facto annexed most of the western Mojave, but they certainly haven't been taking censuses or taking representatives to congress. They certainly don't do anything of the kind before asking for taxes at Primm. Then again, democracy in general is totally absent throughout the game, none of the communities you meet throughout the Mojave or surrounding areas seem to practice it (aside from Nipton, which apparently once had a mayor). The NCR is the sole representative of the concept. The nevadans wouldn't know the absence of true democracy either way. A lot of people imply that the whole war in the Mojave is Kimball's own personal passion project for his own glory, which seems to imply that the NCR is already leaning really heavily on the powerful head executive end of things. There's a thin line between that and outright giving into autocracy. We don't really know of any checks and balances in the NCR government. It's still up in the air whether the democracy would actually fall apart, but it wouldn't be hard at that point. prometheusbound2 posted:But both House and the Legion routinely kill civilians as a matter of policy, without remorse. Hey, don't charge the Strip North Gate. How much of hint do you need? SlothfulCobra fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Feb 19, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2018 06:36
|
|