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chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



rotinaj posted:

You can still roleplay as a "good boy" who went psychotic the moment he stepped foot out of his Vault and got his hands on some Psycho and Jet and Buffout and...

And then proceeded to go nuts with power fists all over everyone's face.

THE BIRTH OF THE PUNCHMASTER

Besides, in the other 2 Fallouts, you saw the main character's childhood. New Vegas was the first in the main series to not do that.

Well, in Fallout 1 all you knew was "From a Vault". Beyond that, you could be anyone from the garbage disposal repairman to the chief of security.

Fallout 2, you've got a point. Your character had a family, including cousins. They were awful. Worse, unlike everyone else in the wasteland, you couldn't murder them without a game over.

I like Fallout 2 a lot, but the initial tribal stuff I'd file in the low points.

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chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



FairGame posted:

You can also speech check them anyway.

Also, whoever is responsible for Honest Hearts is pretty awesome. It's so pretty and I love the idea of a tribal courier (yet I didn't like the beginning of FO2 at all)

Pretty sure that one was Ropekid A.K.A. Josh Sawyer. He posts here.

And nobody likes the beginning of Fallout 2. If someone says they do, they're probably some kind of pod person.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



DoctorStrangelove posted:

Vault 15 was quite successful for an experimental vault.

I'd say Vault 34 did much better than anyone would expect, if we're looking for success stories.

Only went to pot pretty recently, and a good chunk of the population had left already. I mean, if we're looking at 15, three of the four groups it spawned were dicks, (Vipers, Kahns, Jackals) to one functional (at bare minimum better than the pre-war USA) democracy.

34 had one group of feral ghouls to one group of pleasant (if xenophobic) explosives experts. Better ratio.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



CJacobs posted:

Besides that, there's also the fact that the game fits into the timeline so pretending it didn't happen is like getting amnesia and never being able to remember one big block of your life just because you don't feel like trying to recall it. Some pretty important in-universe things happened in Fallout 3.

Some of them even get explicitly brought up in New Vegas.

Veronica talks about the DC schism, the divide version of ED-E has messages from Autumn, the aforementioned survival guide, etc.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



ZombyDog posted:

My memory can be pretty shoddy but at the time of it's release Tactics was pretty well received, even here ( not unlike Fallout 3 ).

Yeah, it's got some definite downsides, (the narrative proper is weak, glitches, the last quarter of the game is a slog of repetitive missions), but the game is pretty decent as a whole. Plus, it had a Gauss Minigun that, if you built a character for it, could destroy anything in one round of combat.

NMA hated it with the fury of a thousand suns, but it hated NMA, so it all came out in the wash.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



rope kid posted:

No, but there are a disproportionately high number of ghoul VRs. When I created the VR templates, I shifted the numbers so there were a significant number of ghouls. Among ordinary/patrol Rangers, there were supposed to be ghoul Rangers at Ranger Station Echo and a super mutant Ranger at Ranger Station Foxtrot, but I think those were cut for some reason.

Ghoul rangers are still there, if memory and wiki serve, but the mutant isn't.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



Byzantine posted:

I slightly disagree, though I freely admit I'm biased towards House. The Kings are an unfriendly gang living literally on House's doorstep. That's a bit different from the NCR attacking a bunch of unarmed doctors.

The NCR talks a good game, but unless the Jesus-Courier is on their rear end about it, they're just as greedy as Caesar. Hell, they even attack the Khans if the Courier gets them to ally with the NCR.

Again, I'm not saying that House is pure good or anything, but I think the circumstances of his victory can lead to the best outcome for everybody involved.

House kills the Kings to the last man unless they actively start a war with people he's supposedly trying to lure to his casinos.

House is a prick.

Meanwhile, the NCR gives the followers the boot, but they don't actively attack them. Considering the Followers encourage outright seditious behavior and at least one of their members murdered NCR troops to cover up stealing from them. Not saying that the NCR's in the right there, but they're still not in House's league for dickery.

And the Khans? Really?

The Khans have been public enemy number 1 for the NCR since before they were founded, and every time they've tangled

1) NCR has stomped them into the ground

2) The Khans come back from apparent total extermination to give the NCR a hard time again.

If the Kings don't get a buy, the Khans sure as hell shouldn't. If someone's not in the Kahns anymore, NCR doesn't hold a grudge, and if someone still is a Kahn, they're part of a culture that's been at war with the NCR more or less forever. This instance is even supporting the Fiends and the Legion, causing a lot of deaths for the NCR, civilian and military alike. They're a bunch of child beating, drug dealing assholes, and I can't say their "culture" biting it is any loss to the Mojave.

Don't get me wrong, NCR behavior towards them if they're allies isn't right, but it's still nicer than what the Khans do every time the situation is reversed.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



Wasse posted:

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I never really thought about (until now), but you are right. People shiver at the thought of Caesar.. yet he's just a guy. The courier, just a guy.

And look how they shiver at the thought of Joshua Graham, but when you meet him, he's just a guy. With a voice that demands respect. Who once was lit on fire and tossed into the grand canyon, surviving on pure determination. Covered in burns that would leave anyone else sobbing on the floor in agony.

Okay. Graham's a bad example.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



The Crotch posted:

There's ~130 years between House waking up and House forming the Three Families in Vegas. For someone with such vision and determination, he took his sweet-rear end time organizing the locals. He could have built up his own Shady Sands, but no, he had to wait until the NCR was on his doorstep...

And, for me, that's half the kicker.

The other half is that the Ranger Unification treaty was already in play when House started acting.

NCR didn't come as conquerors. They came thinking they'd already met all the local governing bodies, and they had a deal. Mind, it was a poo poo deal, where they got to spend blood and coin defending a lot of territory that wasn't providing much benefit, but it was a deal.

Then, the second they find out that there was something worth the effort besides general humanitarian purposes, (and the Hoover Dam is one helluva prize) a new rear end in a top hat pops up claiming that this was his place all along, hastily grabs some tribes to claim they're the locals and proof of his authority, and then the NCR has to make a whole new deal.

If House had been building Vegas since he woke up, well, he'd have a fair claim to the turf. But as things stand, he's nothing but a heavily armed parasite.

Also, the Kings confirm that the NCR can tolerate foreign powers in a state that isn't subservience OR full hostility. It's a major point in their favor. House, less so.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



Ravenfood posted:

This is essentially the gamble behind "No Gods No Masters", yes. Are there really? Because outside of a possibly very intelligent Courier with the Think Tank behind him/her, there aren't exactly that many innovative minds in the Mojave. Even the ones that are there are mostly really good at scavenging, not ones that actually understand the Pre-War tech.

I don't believe for a second that the NCR was expanding for "humanitarian purposes."

Neither do I.

But I do believe they'd settle for it if they couldn't find anything else.

NCR went east to find tech. I'd bet money. But at the time of the Ranger Unification Treaty, they hadn't found poo poo, and they still agreed to defend the territory from the Legion instead of reinforcing their own borders.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



SpookyLizard posted:

you realise that Caesar feels that the upcoming battle with the NCR would transform both societies as the merge into something combining the best of both. The Second Battle of Hoover Dam and New Vegas would start the transformation of turning the Legion into the Republic.

See, that requires believing a word that comes out of Bill Rawl's mouth, and 5 seasons of the Wire have taught me that is not a winning position.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



Orange Crush Rush posted:

The way BoS handles things did make sense right after the bombs fell, remember the BoS started off as a some of Military Personal and Security Guards that got a front row seat to watching a bunch of politicians and dick waving generals use all the tech they had to gently caress everything up forever. So them being twitchy to the idea of letting everyone run around with Laser Rifles and Plasma Casters isn't that unfounded.

But I dunno how "making sure people don't blow up the world again" turned into "beating the gently caress out of someone for having some Microfusion Cells on them" a few years later.

Not a few years. A few centuries. That's room for a lot of cultural drift, especially if you keep exiling everyone who says "Or we could help people. Just spitballing here." as far east as you can.

Brotherhood in 1 was isolationist and kinda dicks, but they developed new tech and traded with the locals, which only went up in the time between 1 and 2. New Vegas's bunch is almost as far from the original (in the exact opposite direction) as the East Coast Brotherhood.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



Ernie Muppari posted:

Well, on the plus side for the BoS in 1: They're at least fairly upfront about The Glow being a radioactive hellhole. It comes off more like they didn't even expect you to go than that they expected you to go and die.

Yeah, it's less "And then he'll die" and more a snipe hunt. They figure at most you'll go the the Glow, say "Wait. THIS is the Glow? gently caress this, then!" and stop bothering them. They get a laugh, you get a lesson, nobody loses much.

When you pull it off, you're a miracle worker. Did you notice that you made Paladin in less time than it takes most Brotherhood members to get through basic? They're, in their weird way, treating you like royalty. As long as you aren't a total jackass.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



Rex Deckard posted:

Because Rhombus was voiced by Clancy Brown, and any excuse to give him a chance to voice a character is a good idea.

I haven't seen much discussion of the Fallout Tactics Brotherhood. They were horribly xenophobic and the only way to get a decent ending was to make sure that you sacrificed your character's life and that character had to be a good person thru the game.

Most of the other results were basically a different flavor of extermination of non-humans.

So I saved the New Vegas Brotherhood once, but now, it is basically full auto as soon as they open the door to say hi....or Super Slam if going melee.

Not really?

There were four endings. Only one was genocidal against non-humans. And, for the Midwestern bunch, they were a bunch of pseudo-fascist bastards through and through but one thing, maybe the only thing, they had going for them was they weren't xenophobic. By wasteland standards, they were the loving Tolerance Team. If you could carry a gun and point it at the enemy, welcome aboard, Brother! Hell, even if you couldn't. Just ask Junior Knight Krldraav.

The other endings, lessee. One, the one you mentioned, was "The Brotherhood and its army of killbots turn the wasteland into a paradise. They're a bit worried what will happen when they meet the West Coast brotherhood, since those guys are dicks."

The next one, if your guy wasn't a saint but sacrificed himself, was "Your army of killbots turns the wasteland into a totalitarian but fair dictatorship. All who oppose you die in mysterious 'accidents', as you go all Emperor Doom. The Old Brotherhood is next on the target list."

The only outright BAD ending is if you let your racist former boss merge with the calculator. He makes the wastes safe and happy for baseline(ish, no Enclave style genetic total purity kick) humanity, but enslaves or exterminates ghouls and mutants.

The last ending is "Kill the computer". Brotherhood struggles, but learns from smaller communities and forms alliances to be better than ever, making the deserts green. No indication of genocide or, really, any dickery.

So, yes. Dicks. But they're the least racist total dicks.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



Derek Dominoe posted:

And for their help they were rewarded with an NCR assault after Tandi died. No wonder there is a renewed sense of isolationism. Actually, the D.C. Brotherhood probably reflects what the NCR could have eventually had working with them if they hadn't been so belligerent.

Er, no.

Brotherhood NCR war started with the Brotherhood of Steel NUKING AN NCR RESEARCH CENTER.

I defend the Brotherhood sometimes, but man. They can be dicks.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



Robot Randy posted:

They have cooler looking armor.

Crappy football gear cooler than the Ranger duster?

Don't think anything is cooler in this game than the black duster, but if you're going to try to compete with it, might want something that doesn't look like a particularly cheap junior high production of Julius Caesar.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



SpookyLizard posted:

No, Orkz have character. And orkz don't fight to fight. They fight because they da best. And dez gonna win.

The Enclave in FO2 basically wants to kill every mutant on the mainland because they view them as mutant squatters sitting on purestrain american homeland that should be occupied by AMERICANS, not some filthy mutants. Which they will do with power armor and biological warfare. :science::freep:


And then they also kill purestrain Americans from the vaults because :moreevil:

I mean, yeah, Enclave in FO3 are morons, but let's not pretend Fallout 2 was much better on that front. Their master plan to purge the wasteland was worse at killing mutants than it was at killing their own troops, and they made it airborn so they could guarantee that they'd have no loving idea how it'd spread.

Fallout New Vegas makes them look like a bunch of perfectly reasonable people who happened to be members of a pseudo-fascist genocidal regime, but that's New Vegas. Fallout 2? Yeah, they made Cobra Commander look like a deep and nuanced examination of the nature of evil.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



Bilal posted:

No, the Enclave were actually progressing technologically. The Brotherhood builds nothing new, they simply hoard ancient weapons- they're utterly stagnant.

Depends on the game.

Fallout 1 Brotherhood built the laser pistol and Brotherhood combat armor. They were pretty much the only people in the world inventing badass new tech.

Then they backslid. Probably because of all the exiling anyone who disagreed with them, starting with Tactics.

The brotherhood in Tactics, meanwhile, invented new EMP weapons and power armor that made the T-51B look like a joke. Which is probably getting cut from the official timeline because that makes them the scariest force in the wasteland. Enclave level tech, Legion level brutality, and the Tandi-era NCR's willingness to make use of any resource available, all in one. And that's assuming they don't have a robot army.

It's amazing how every time the Brotherhood proper kicks a group out, they manage to carve out an empire. Meanwhile, the original is wasting away.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



Mister Bates posted:

House is a giant dickhead and I really don't get why you get negative karma for killing him, but the Brotherhood are equally giant dickheads and I kind of have to force myself to not kill them. In the first game they send you on a literal suicide mission in the hopes that you'll die of radiation sickness and are completely unsure of what to do when you manage to survive. In the second game they're only friendly to the player because they want to figure out where the Enclave is getting its advanced technology and take it from them. And between FO2 and New Vegas they went full-on fascist and tried to conquer California, getting their asses kicked in the process. I mean, don't get me wrong, a monastic order of technology-worshipping zealots in power armor is pretty cool, but they're still dicks.

The first one, they weren't planning to kill you. I mean, if you walked up past the pile of corpses into a radioactive sinkhole, then died, that's on you.

They just wanted you to gently caress off and stop bothering them. Beyond that, they didn't give much of a drat.

They're shocked because they just asked you to do the obviously impossible and you came back a few weeks later asking if that was it.

You want dickbag brotherhood behavior, Tactics is the go-to.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



Wolfsheim posted:

Arguably worse, really.

Eh.

Boxup has backsies available. You find a way to give him some connections without the full Lucky 38 trappings down the road, and House can have some autonomy again. Not nice, and definitely more Dishonored non-lethal than Bioware light side, but if you put House back in hibernation, it at least offers a potential out down the line instead of ending it all.

So, pros and cons.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



Fag Boy Jim posted:

House does, at least, have the excuse that he's defending his own territory.

Oh, yes.

His.

Because he was spending all the time since he woke up developing it, making it into a bastion of civilization and prosperity.

Oh, wait. No.

The greedy fucker didn't do poo poo for over a loving century. He had the means and resources to start revitalizing Vegas back in 2138. Could have built his own match for the NCR if he wanted in that time.

Hell! He could have done better. He had a vault full of people. An untouched city with all the resources you could want. Army of robots to fill any labor gaps. Aradesh and Tandi had a lot less when they started out, and he'd be working with a five year head start.

But no. He waited until the NCR did all the heavy lifting and had drat scouts passing on "Oh, you know how we've been shedding blood all over the Mojave with treaties ensuring we'll keep dying for these people? And we have nothing to show for it? Guess what? We got something that makes the whole trip worthwhile." before making his claim. NCR didn't march into clearly marked House territory. They walked into clearly unclaimed territory, then had House swipe it from under them like Lucy and the football.

He's a parasite and a tyrant.

Not saying the NCR is right to kill him, and if making a deal (and pissing off Moore) was still an option in the game, I'd be for that one. But of the lovely options on the table, killing House is by far the least lovely.

As for the NCR?

"Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried."

Not going to say they're a good option. But House is even worse.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



Utgardaloki posted:

He was in a coma, he didn't actually sit and wait for this exact circumstance. I think it was, actually, notification of the NCR's existence that awoke him.

Nope.

Woke up in 2138. Collector's Edition game guide confirms it.

If he wasn't sitting on his rear end for so long, would be a lot more charitable. But he was, so I'm not.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



Sudoku posted:

Now here's a man whose ideals I can support. I'll get behind any party that lets me ragdoll people off the Dam.

And all while hearing the soothing voice of Dave Foley.

I can't argue with that position.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



Crazy Joe Wilson posted:

The Boomers are more xenophobic than the Brotherhood. It's funny given that even though it seems like they've been at Nellis for a while, it's actually only been around 50~ years since they left Vault 34. Seems real quick for them to have developed such a disdain and hatred of outsiders so quickly, but maybe constantly fending off raider attacks will do that to a people with an already very-developed sense of in-grouping.

Vaults are xenophobic as all hell to start. Not a surprise one's population would keep up the pattern.

And the Boomer leadership at least recognizes that hey, maybe other people could have stuff worth knowing.

They make it very clear anyone who gets close gets bombed to hell, which in a wasteland with a high population of supermutants and drugged up raiders is understandable if not nice. And they can get over the isolationism, unlike, say, Vault City.

They're an alright bunch of psychos.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



poptart_fairy posted:

This what I love most about Honest Hearts. This terrifying, mythical figure is just...this pretty chill dude sat at a desk working on stuff.

While still living up to his reputation in a way you didn't expect.

I like Joshua Graham.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



Ddraig posted:

Still, he's a deeply flawed person who like virtually every major player in the game, has a really hard time letting go of the past. He's using the Sorrows and their war with the White Legs as his own personal vendetta against Caesar. He claims that it's a mission for the Sorrows to keep their home, but it's all just an elaborate revenge fantasy that's going to cost an awful lot of lives.

So yeah he might have survived the physical trauma, but he's still hosed up in the head from the entire ordeal.

Flawed, sure.

But he's one of the only people in the game even trying to let go of his past. He knows he was the worst son-of-a-bitch in the wastes. And everything since is trying to set things right.

Killing the White Legs to the last man is a logical response. There's no reason to assume they'd stop chasing after one setback, and the main effect of running is losing the closest thing to paradise left under the burning sky on the slim hope that appeasement, for the first time in human history, will work. And plan Graham is workable. Joshua's tribe is a tough band of sons-of-bitches, the Sorrows are good hunters, and with Josh and the Courier leading the offense, that's a couple avatars of the wrath of God right there.

And there's endings where that's it. He finishes the job and shows mercy. He cuts off the past to the point where the legend starts to die.

Graham's not everything the legend says. He's more remarkable than advertised. Legend shows a badass. The reality is a monster trying his damnedest to be made a good man. And, by grace, he can even succeed.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



The NCR complaints always ring kinda hollow to me because they're so... 21st century.

"The taxes are too high!"

"Big business has too much influence in the government!"

"Hawks are in charge of the military!"

Meanwhile, the Wasteland in general has problems like

"IT'S EATING MY loving LEGS!"

and

"I will die at 30 because my government is so loving stupid they won't even let me use Roman era medical technology."

I just can't treat those as the same level of problem.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



SpookyLizard posted:

House is basically the only reason there is a Vegas and a functional Dam. House owns Vegas between building/rebuilding/improving the land, the agreement of the three families, and the agreement of the NCR, House owns Vegas.

If the NCR goes and says well that contract is invalid gently caress you, theyre basically pulling the same goddamned poo poo as expanionist America and loving over the various tribes.


Also, yes, it is silly that the NCR is focused on taxes and things when theyre incapable of dealing with OH GOD MY LEGS. if youre not rich enough to afford your own guards, youre going to have to rely on your own self for defense and OH GOD YOUR LEGS.

Their core territories HAVE loving dealt with "OH GOD, MY LEGS!"

That's a thing all the media agrees on. If you're in the NCR's home territory, than you're living in first world level luxury. They have personal cars.

As for loving over tribes? Forgive me if I don't cry a river for the Kahns. They're a longstanding group of shitstains who kept kicking the hornet's nest and got shocked every time they got stung. Their "culture" is pretty much meth labs and beatings, their "history" is slaving, and their "aspirations" are working with the Legion. Everyone else, assuming the Courier helps encourage the NCR's better angels over Moore, wins with the NCR. Brotherhood of Steel gets their power armor back nice and neat (fulfilling their weird religious bit about it) in exchange for being productive and helpful members of society. Followers get official backing again so they can actually accomplish their idealistic aims instead of bleeding on the vine from need outpacing resources. The Kings are still an independent state.

You want to compare to the USA? Well, poo poo, that's as good a proof as any the NCR is considerably better than the US back in its expansionist days. Tribes of natives wanted to make a square deal there, Jackson hosed 'em over. NCR, meanwhile, is willing to let the King set up shop right on their doorstep as long as he's not actively at war. Even if there's still hostilities! That's loving amazing right there.

As for House? His whole 3 tribes act came AFTER the NCR hit the strip and made plans for the dam. Including treaties (fair ones! I know, it's a miracle) with the apparent authorities in the area. Look up the timeline for the Ranger Unification and the establishment of the casinos. House wasn't working the land when the NCR barged in at gunpoint. The NCR was already moving in when House started squatting just so he could leech off their developments. Which kinda makes me doubt a lot of his promises vis a vis advancement, when he spent decades sitting on his rear end, awake but unwilling to do anything to help rebuild.

NCR's flawed, but it's modern democracy flawed. The alternatives (barring No Gods No Masters) are just hoping that a tyrant will work this time. Despite the men being propped up being, bluntly, shittier people than Kill 'Em All Moore. Who is a pretty lovely person.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



SpookyLizard posted:

Yeah, murdering all those brown peopletribals is a great way to make the world safer for AmericaThe NCR.

How dare they not bend to the will of the NCR and all their democracy. They should be grateful they were liberated and introduced to democracy.

The Great Kahns have attacked the NCR at every encounter. They murder, rob, and arm their enemies. The Kahns were dicks to the NCR before the NCR existed and take every opportunity to kick the bear while telling them they're too chicken to do anything about it.

Meanwhile, their "culture" is basically running meth labs and beating their kids. One of the former Kahns you meet (who's a member of a decorated NCR special ops unit with no sign he's mistreated due to his ethnic background) basically says "gently caress 'em, gently caress their culture, it's the worst."

Yes. Bitter Springs was wrong. War crime, atrocity, there's a lot of good terms for it. But the NCR knows it was in the wrong, and the whole thing was the result of (horrific) misunderstanding of orders. And, short of the Legion and the Fiends, couldn't have happened to a more deserving bunch of people.

NCR kills women and children, it's a political shitstorm and they try to make amends. Anyone else kills women and children, it's a Tuesday.


chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



SpookyLizard posted:

Oi! Nerd! Sarcasm!



Mr. Bibs, the NCR isn't the only civilization in the wasteland. The Khans aren't required to be a part of them. The NCR frequently rebuffed the khans, let them settle elsewhere, and then moved into their territory. Because manifest-gently caress-you-got-mine-destiny.


Also, Ddraig, the questions are maybe difficult in-character, but they're really obvious to anyone who has played FO1/2, to the point they're basically a little nod of the hat to "remember this place and NPCs and one of those flags you've seen a thousand times in this game?"

They "left" the Kahns alone because they thought they'd killed 'em all. Like, that's been how the Kahns have worked. They murder, steal, and enslave NCR stuff. A PC comes along and murders the gently caress out of 'em. Problem settled.

Then, a few decades later it turns out there was one or two left, they reformed the organization under the party line of "We'll get the NCR this time! Those fucks are going down!". Then a PC comes along and kills them to almost the last man, NCR figures it's settled, repeat.

The Kahns don't want to be left alone. They want to kill anyone who can't defend themselves, steal anything that isn't bolted down, and sell drugs to the Fiends, who do all that but worse. Although killing individual members of the group can be varying degrees of wrong (from 'Good riddance' to 'War Crime') wiping out their civilization (whether by straight up extermination or well crafted lies to replace their background with classical Mongol) is pure gain.

Really, when you keep kicking a bear, I don't feel too sorry when it mauls you to death.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



SpookyLizard posted:

Hey guys, while actually killing everyone is really horrible, it's super good because they refuse to join the NCR. I mean on it's own it's utterly horrific for each totally innocent child killed, but y'know, since we're wiping out their culture, it's all good.

Do you even loving, like, think? ever? at all?

I do.

The people dying is bad.

The culture dying is good.

It's fairly simple. For example, oh, the cult of Thugee. I know, some historians doubt it existed, but indulge me. Even if it was fictional, so are the Kahns. The individual deaths of the members may cost people their lives who, other than the murdering travelers, have been pillars of the community. But the death of the cult itself is a net good. The fewer people killed in the extermination of the idea, the better, but the idea, for the benefit of everyone involved, has to die. The same is true of the Kahn culture.

And, in case you still refuse to acknowledge the basic tenants of the Kahn's culture, my issue isn't that they refuse to join the NCR. The same is true of the Kings and the Boomers, and I've never defended NCR plans for expansion in either case. The good ending is that the NCR leaves them as independent groups.

The problem with the Kahns is that they're murderous raiders who kill women and children, ruin the lives of anyone trying to get by, and beat their own kids half to death as a rite of passage.

Bitter Springs is a war crime, and the NCR is right to be ashamed, maybe didn't go far enough on that, even. But conducting the rest of the Kahn campaign is standard practice for a belligerent state. They kill your people and refuse to talk, you kill 'em back until they agree to talk. The Kahns, instead, kept supporting every enemy the NCR had.

If there was a way to get them to talk, that would be great. (And, for the record, the ending where the NCR forces the survivors onto camps is dickweedery, even if it's pretty human, understandable dickweedery) But as things stand, I can't really bring myself to cry too much when they get what they have coming.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



Byzantine posted:

I hit an assassin group with the Sun Laser. They stood back up and shot my head off.

So clearly the Legion is the only true option because they're all Achilles.

Or it's another reason to go for the NCR.

Hectoring those bastards is much more worthy.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



LividLiquid posted:

I did it just so I could see it, then reverted to an earlier save. It really bummed me out, and the locations weren't exactly awesome either. It's weird when games reward you with things you couldn't possibly need because what you need to do to earn them means you're awesome enough already.

I'm seriously considering not even completing Lonesome Road on this playthrough, 'cause that's the best ending to it, really. Let the pretentious dickwagon be wrong.

Start it and don't complete it.

Ignore it, and Ulysses might move on.

Start it, get the riot gear, and leave, you're giving him the worst case of narrative blue balls a man can get. He KNOWS you're fascinated. That you'll come back, see your past sins! One day!

Meanwhile, the Courier has forgotten Ulysses, the Divide, and most of their third grade education thanks to another Psycho and Mentats cocktail.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



Sir Unimaginative posted:

What society has ever been improved by being unable to stand up for itself?

Okay, now what society in a world that pretty much has to go and reinvent diplomacy (you bring up NCR here but they have enough trouble FAKING it) would last two seconds being unable to stand up for itself, except maybe in isolation? Keep in mind the subject at hand is itself a compelling argument that isolation is an illusion, even in a world as split apart as the Fallout world.


Graham was never Legion, not as we know it - he was a really really angry dude that stuck around Sallow because he got. poo poo. Done. and it was easy for Graham to overlook the county-wide trail of atrocities in their wake that are all too apparent to third parties like us. In any case, dude has a 99+% coverage burn scar saying he and Caesar are totally not bros.

He's pretty much Caesar's arch-nemesis now, not counting the player.

Which means he's in my good books right from the get go, even before he starts being all repentant and actually understanding what he did wrong and not lying to himself about how he's not a bad person.

I like Graham.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



Fair Bear Maiden posted:

I like turtles, therefore I will take over the Mojave.


You have to admit, there's a certain admirable purity to the position.

Most arguments fail due to a broken link in the logic. This argument has no logical integrity to begin with, so there's no counter.

It's the same principle as the high (Speech) options in Fallout 3, and nearly as effective.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



eating only apples posted:

I had a ridiculous amount of fun my first time through OWB. I'd love to go back to that. The other three I have as much fun the second or third time through while OWB sort of gets stale.


I went with Daniel my first time through HH and I still can't quite place why.

Even with all the discussion about what a shitheel he is (and he is) Joshua's conviction to slaughter the lot turned me away. For a Christian he's not very Christian.

Joshua tends to read from the old testament.

I mean, even the new has " I did not come to bring peace, but a sword", but the old consists in large part of God either killing huge numbers of people, or telling his servants to kill huge numbers of people.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



COOKIEMONSTER posted:

Not to mention the entire central theme of the DLC being about "letting go."

But the best part of any parable is refusing to learn your lesson.

The end! No moral.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



Capn Beeb posted:

Sarsaparilla?! Hngh...

"You may know me as the Head Chief First Researcher of Labs Z-9 and Z-14. There I fought valiantly to preserve rattlesnake DNA, and put it right where it belongs, in the husk of another feared predator.- Oh, and the tarantula hawk. Can't splice enough, I always say. Especially if you can make a magnificent Cazador"

"Cazadors, huh? But how do they taste?"

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



chitoryu12 posted:

Yeah, I bet you love an army of mook Super Mutants with hunting rifles too.

Not choppy enough.

Super mutants need rippers and miniguns. It's only proper.

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chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



Byzantine posted:

Until, spurred by their total victory in the Mojave, the NCR tries to consume the next area it finds and there's no Courier Jesus to powder their butts.

The best ending for NCR is to have its warhawks humiliated and force it to acknowledge that other states have the right to exist.

Which is the irony of it.

The NCR winning is the best case scenario for everyone!

...except the NCR, who'd probably do better long term with a House or Independent win, assuming the Courier takes a "I don't have anything against you, but keep your tanks the gently caress off my lawn" approach to diplomacy.

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