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  • Locked thread
Insane Totoro
Dec 5, 2005

Take cover!!!
That Totoro has an AR-15!


NFA Information Thread v2.0. Thanks to DkHelmet, Craptacular, Roundboy, Alex P Corn, and a ton of other people contributed to what is always a work in progress.



Potentially Important Info RE: Engraving
https://www.atf.gov/content/firearms/firearms-industry/guides/firearms-verification-overview

I BELIEVE this can be interpreted as that only the SERIAL number has to be of depth .003 and print size 1/16" but the TRUST or NAME can be simply .003 but of any text size.

quote:


"Q: How must licensed manufacturers and licensed importers identify firearms, armor piercing ammunition?
Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows:
By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured or imported on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch; and

By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed. For firearms manufactured or imported on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:

The model, if such designation has been made;

The caliber or gauge:

Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer;

In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business; and

In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134."





HEY INSANE TOTORO, CONVINCE ME TO BUY AN NFA FIREARM. THANKS




  1. They're fun.
  2. See above.
  3. Suppressors are genuinely useful training tools.
  4. SBR/SBS guns are fun.
  5. Machine guns are cool.
  6. Get one now before any potential rules changes (41P)
  7. You don't need a CLEO signoff with a trust.
  8. If you start a form NOW the wait is shorter than actually starting it when you REALLY want it.
  9. We'll tell you everything you have to do.
  10. Reference #1 again.

Disclaimer:
This guide is not legal advice, nor am I a lawyer. Anything here is provided simply for your entertainment.

What is the NFA?
Back in the early 20th century, there were few, if any federal firearms laws. But outcry over Prohibition-era gangsters, the threat of communist uprising, and the desire of FDR to regulate anything and everything led to the passage of the National Firearms Act (NFA) in 1934. At the time, it was not considered constitutional for Congress to ban firearms outright. But it was considered constitutional to implement a tax, so the NFA is a firearms law masquerading as a tax law. The NFA requires a tax be paid whenever an NFA firearm is transferred or made. All legal NFA-regulated firearms must be registered with the ATF.

The assassinations of JFK with a non-NFA-regulated bolt-action Carcano rifle and MLK with a non-NFA-regulated pump-action Remington rifle led Congress to further restrict NFA firearms through the Gun Control Act (GCA) in 1968, by limiting NFA imports and adding destructive devices to the NFA. Finally, the Firearms Owners Protection Act (FOPA) in 1986 was generally a good law in that it loosened some of the more onerous parts of the GCA, but it also included a provision to ban further registration of machine guns for transfer to the general public.

What are the different types of NFA firearms?
Silencers (sound suppressors):
Silencers are defined as something attached to a firearm which muffles the report of the firearm. Legally, they’re firearms in and of themselves, despite silencers not being able to discharge ammunition.

Silencers work by trapping the expanding gas and shock wave from the muzzle of a gun. This means that they only quiet the noise from the ammunition’s gunpowder going off. However, if a bullet is supersonic, it will also make a mini sonic boom (like an aircraft breaking the sound barrier), which occurs during the whole flight of the bullet, which the silencer can’t quiet. Only suppressors shooting subsonic ammunition can approach “Hollywood movie” quiet. But even with supersonic ammunition, silencers can provide significant sound reduction over an unsuppressed firearm.

But why would anyone want a quiet gun? James Bond fantasies, amirite? Well, maybe, but silencers are also good for:
  • Being a good neighbor, as shooting a quieter firearm is less annoying to the general public.
  • Recoil and flash reduction, as silencers are excellent brakes and flash suppressors.
  • Training new shooters, since they won't have to deal with the loud sound of a gun. Starting out with a suppressed rimfire gun has makes an easier transition to bigger, louder firearms which may intimidate a new shooter.
  • Hunters, since many prefer not to wear any hearing protection. However, check your state laws, as some states ban silencer use while hunting, even though silencer ownership is legal there.
For more information on silencers, this video from the Military Arms Channel is a good primer.

Machine guns:
Machine guns are defined as any firearm capable of full-auto or burst-fire, or any part or combination of parts which can be used to convert a firearm to full-auto or burst-fire. Machine guns are a special case, because unlike other NFA firearms, no new machine guns may be manufactured and registered except for government use or export. This was not the case prior to May 19, 1986, but after that date the FOPA took effect and enacted 18 USC 922(o) into law, which banned transferring machine guns registered after that date to the general public. All other types of NFA firearms besides machine guns may still be domestically manufactured and sold to the general public. However, after the GCA became law in 1968, NFA firearms that were imported after that date may only be transferred to the government and dealers.

Types of machine guns:
  • "Transferable" machine guns were domestically registered prior to May 19, 1986, or foreign-made and registered prior to 1968. These may be possessed by and transferred between members of the general public.
  • "Pre-sample" machine guns were foreign-manufactured machine guns imported between 1968 and May 19, 1986. These may be possessed by manufacturers, dealers and the government, but not by anyone else. They may also be kept by manufacturers and dealers after they go out of business and give up their license.
  • "Post-sample" machine guns are all machine guns registered after May 19, 1986. These may only be possessed by the government, by the manufacturer who built them, or by a dealer who has a government agency provide a demonstration request letter to the ATF on behalf of the dealer. They may not be kept by a manufacturer or dealer after they go out of business and give up their license.
  • "Form 10" machine guns are machine guns which were illegal/unregistered/contraband that have since been registered by a law enforcement agency. Unsurprisingly, they're registered on an ATF form 10.) Not even a dealer can legally possess these, they can only be transferred to other governmental agencies.

Because there are only a limited number of transferable machine guns but a large number of people who want them, the price of transferable machine guns has gone steadily upwards since 18 USC 922(o) was passed in 1986. As of 2014, the cheapest transferable machine guns are about $5,000, with most types now into 5 figures. The number of pre-sample machine guns is also limited, but since only dealers can buy them the price is generally somewhere between a post-sample and a transferable machine gun. Since post-samples include newly manufactured machine guns, the only limit on their price is how much it costs the manufacturer to produce and sell them, instead of prices that are artificially raised due to restricted numbers, like the other types.

Short Barreled Rifles (SBR):
Short barreled rifles are any rifle with a barrel length shorter than 16", or an overall length of less than 26", or any firearm made from a rifle.

Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS):
Short barreled shotguns are any shotgun that has a barrel shorter than 18”, or an overall length less than 26”, or any firearm made from a shotgun.

Any Other Weapon (AOW):
AOWs are concealable firearms (<26” OAL) that aren’t handguns, but don’t fit in one of the other categories. Examples would include such things as pen guns, cane guns, belt-buckle guns, short combination guns (guns with multiple barrels that can only shoot one shot per barrel before reloading) and short stockless smoothbore firearms such as the Serbu Super Shorty.

Destructive Devices (DD):
Destructive devices are firearms with a bore larger than 1/2”, such as breechloading cannon, artillery, mortars, grenade launchers and similar firearms. Most shotguns are also over 1/2” bore, but there is a clause in the law allows the ATF to exclude any firearm from regulation as a destructive device if the ATF says the firearm has a “sporting purpose”, which they have done for all but two shotguns the USAS-12 and Streetsweeper. The destructive device classification also includes bombs, grenades, and other explosive anti-personnel devices, but many of these also require a Federal Explosives License to possess.

Note that I am not referring to these firearms as "Class 3" firearms, as they are sometimes referred. "Class 3" is a type of tax paid by an FFL (Federal Firearms Licensee, a gun dealer), not a class of firearm, so this would be a misnomer. Any FFL can deal in NFA firearms. However each transfer an FFL does would be taxed, so any FFL who wants to deal in NFA firearms will pay an annual Special Occupational Tax, which allows them to conduct commerce with NFA firearms tax-free. Any FFL that Since not all FFLs have an SOT, if you want to use an FFL for an NFA transfer, make sure they have an SOT. Typically, the fee an FFL charges for transferring an NFA firearm will be several times the fee they charge for transferring a normal firearm, due to the length of time it takes for the transfer to be approved.

There's three different types of SOTs:

A Class 1 SOT may import and deal in NFA firearms.
A Class 2 SOT may manufacture and deal in NFA firearms.
A Class 3 SOT may only deal in NFA firearms.

How do I get an NFA firearm?
You have two choices: buy one, or make one.

Purchasing an NFA firearm:
Initially, the NFA was designed to impede the general public from obtaining NFA firearms through a $200 transfer tax. Although the tax still exists, because of inflation now it's mostly just a minor annoyance. However when the law was originally passed, $200 was several times the price of most new firearms.

Today, most of the inconvenience comes from the extra steps required for the ATF to approve transfer or manufacture of an NFA firearm. The extra steps are not that difficult, but are more involved than for a normal firearm. Mostly, it's a lot of waiting.

Private ownership vs. a trust:
It's possible to have an NFA firearm which is registered to a trust, LLC or corporation instead of an individual person. There’s two reasons to do this:
  1. A transfer to a real person requires a chief law enforcement officer ("CLEO") to sign off on the form. This is an ATF requirement, certifying that the CLEO knows of no reason that would legally prevent the person from possessing the firearm. However, there is no CLEO signoff requirement for trust or corporate transfers.
  2. Multiple people are able to legally possess the NFA firearm. As long as a person is a trustee of the trust or officer of the corporation, and not otherwise legally prohibited from possessing firearms, then the company can authorize them to possess trust or corporate assets (the firearms).
Other signoff considerations:
  • The CLEO must be the head of a law enforcement agency or their designated subordinate who they've notified to the ATF that they may sign for the CLEO. It can't just be some random officer or deputy.
  • Sometimes a CLEO won't want to sign off on a transfer form, for any number of reasons. Federal law doesn’t (and can’t) require the CLEO to sign. There isn't any recourse in federal law to force them to sign the form, so many times using a trust or corporation is the only method to get approval. However, some states have “shall-sign” laws, which require a CLEO to sign ATF forms presented to them by anyone who lives in their area of jurisdiction and is not a prohibited possessor. Arizona, Alaska, Kansas, Kentucky, Oklahoma, and Tennessee all currently have such laws, with efforts being made to pass similar laws in other states.
  • There are multiple CLEOs who are acceptable signatories. Typically, acceptable CLEOs include the sheriff, chief of police, chief of the state police, judges who prosecute felony cases and district attorneys. If one CLEO won't sign, you can try asking another, but often there's an informal agreement between CLEOs in an area where if one won't sign, none of the others will.
  • It must be a CLEO from agency that has jurisdiction over your residence. While the sheriff in the next county over might sign, they don't have primary jurisdiction in your county, so they can't sign for you. Or, if you don’t live inside a city or town’s limits, then the chief of police of a neighboring city or town can’t sign either.
  • The CLEO signoff requirement may be changing in the future. In 2013, the ATF released a proposed rule change (“41P”) which would require all applicants provide forms with a completed CLEO signoff, not just real persons. To say the least, this caused quite a bit of consternation, because many people are unable to get a signoff and this new requirement would preclude them from getting any NFA firearms at all in the future. After receiving comments from the general public, the ATF has mostly been quiet on this for the past year. Indications right now are that if anything changes, it will be sometime in early 2015.
Since trusts are the simplest to create and administer, if you use a legal entity to possess your NFA firearms it’s probably best to use a trust. If you already have an LLC (for a business you own, for example), avoid using that to own NFA firearms. Keep your livelihood and your hobbies separate.

I also suggest that you give the trust a short name, if only for the reason that it'll be easier to find a place to engrave a shorter name on a firearm if you ever make an NFA firearm using a form 1. Many people name the trust after themselves so it’s obvious that they’re a trustee.

And since some people are incapable of reading... A trust doesn't have to be "NAME Living Trust" or any specific format. You could name it the Sexy Butt Rifle Trust and it'd be legal. Some people use their name so it's clear where the trust originated. And some people just like to do something short.

Just don't put as the reason on the form as "For all lawful sexual purposes" and you'll be fine.

Trusts: A "How To"

MEGA DISCLAIMER

I am most definitely not a lawyer. I have always gone the Quicken route and so far so good. Many goons have done it that way and it works fine. Some people like to consult a lawyer. This is never a bad thing and can be (expensive) insurance against something going wrong. However, do keep in mind that a lot of the ONLINE GUN LAWYERS say that you MUST use a lawyer and hey they conveniently charge a lot of money for this...

... well, there has never been an actual cited case of a Quicken trust gone wrong unless someone actually messed up the Form 4 or Form 1 or there was a prohibited person on the trust.

Make your own judgments about this.

END DISCLAIMER

Anyway... actually doing a trust. DkHelmet writes:

quote:

NFA Trusts, or The Subtle Joys of Playing with the NFA.

DISCLAIMER

I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice. If you go this route, read up on it your drat self and consult a lawyer, this is for entertainment purposes only, etc, etc.

I am also not an NFA expert by any means. I've just read an awful lot and have a few stamps through this method.

Thanks to Craptacular for corrections.

Requirements

You'll need:
Quicken Willmaker, I've used the 2009 version for this guide
A notary public
Half a brain
Oodles and oodles of patience

The Trust

Fire up Willmaker, select Estate Planning and Living Trust - Basic Trust. You'll want an individual living trust. If you're married you can create a joint trust for property shared, but it's not necessary. You can name your husband and adopted Guatemalan children as beneficiaries just fine with an individual trust.

You will be the grantor and trustee of this trust. You need to name someone to be the successor trustee- this is the person that executes the trust's obligations after your death or incapacitation. This must be a separate individual! A lot of the ATF rejections came from idiots putting themselves as successor in case of their own death, which is an invalid trust. The successor trustee does nothing except distributing the property of the trust to the beneficiaries, they do not become owners in the event of your death, just bureaucrats.

You will also need to select at least one person to determine your capacity to manage the trust. This must also be a separate person, and not the successor trustee! This person should be trustworthy, and if they decide you're brain dead other otherwise incapable of being the trustee the successor trustee takes over. So ask your babysitter/glory hole manager/RV dealer or someone else you trust explicitly.

Now let's assign some property. Grab a dollar bill. Describe the dollar bill: "One US Dollar, serial number XXXXXXXX". Do not add anything else aside from the single solitary dollar. Go forward a bit and select that dollar and specify that it has no title document.

Name your beneficiaries. They will receive your NFA items upon your death or incapacitation. Don't worry, the items transfer tax-free under the ATF Form 5. If you wish, name alternate beneficiaries, and if they're underage you'll have to think long and hard about how they will inherit your NFA items- you'll need a custodian or subtrust. If you have children and life insurance you've probably already thought about these things.

When you're done, review all documents: the declaration, certification, and letter to successor. Export them as RTF. We're going to edit them a bit to change the name and clean things up.

Now fire up good old Word and let's edit. The first few pages are disclaimers, instructions, and a coupon. Fun! Read or print out these pages and remove them. We are going change the name of the trust to make sure there's no conflict with any other trust in your name that you may already have or create down the road, and it's a really simple means of spelling out in large letters that this is, in fact, for NFA items if you get inspected at the range by police or other LEO. You could name it something ridiculous like "Hot cock in my throat Trust" but it's better to err on the side of caution. Now, very carefully, change the WillMaker generated name of the trust "DkHelmet Revocable Living Trust" to "DkHelmet NFA Revocable Living Trust." In my copy there is a reference on Declaration page 1 and two on Assignment page 1. Read over it carefully and have someone else proofread. Jesus Christ don't mess this one up.

Break the document into four parts: Declaration of Trust.doc, Assignment of Property.doc, Schedule A.doc, and Letter to Successor.doc.

Back in WillMaker, select Estate Planning and Certification of Trust. This is much simpler. Export as RTF, and edit again. My version has three references on page 1 and one on page 2, YMMV. Remove the instructions as before and save as Certification of Trust.doc.

Print 'em up. Now take the unsigned declaration document and certification to a notary and sign in their presence and have them notarize it. Sign and date the assignment of property. Congratulations! You have a trust. Paperclip the dollar bill to your Schedule A and STORE THE ORIGINALS SOMEWHERE SAFE. Make a bunch of copies of the notarized declaration and certification, you'll need them. You can deal with electronic copies of your Schedule A.

More Paperwork

Download a copy of the ATF Form 5330.20, aptly named Certification of Compliance with 18 USC 922(g)(5)(B). This certifies that the NFA trust's trustee (you) is a citizen or not.

Current ATF Form: https://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-5330-20.pdf

Box 1: Name under which filed: DkHelmet NFA Revocable Living Trust
Box 2: Name certifying citizenship: Helmet, Dk
Box 3: Country: USA

If you're a resident alien, you've got some more boxes to fill out, but you should be used to tons of paperwork anyway.

Sign, date, and make lots of copies. STORE THE ORIGINAL WITH YOUR ORIGINAL TRUST DOCUMENTS. Technically it's not necessary to guard this, since it's just a certification, but I err on the side of pedantry.

Amend the Trust Documents

Copy the Assignment of Property.doc file to Assignment of Property - LMT SBR.doc or something equally descriptive. Edit it, adding in the new item. Print, sign and date, store with the originals.

Edit Schedule A. Add in the new NFA item. Save and print, store with the originals, replacing the original Schedule A with the updated one.

Technically, the returned Form 1 or 4 in the trust's name is sufficient for assignment of property, and technically you never need to send Schedule As with your application. Technically. However, I have had a rejection for not sending in my Schedule A. Go figure. It's best to be especially strict when it comes to legal documents, and I do everything above the board with respect to this trust.

REMINDER:

Make a color PDF of your forms and put the original in a secure place. Keep copies of the form with the NFA item when you travel with it anywhere. Do not take your originals out with you!

You may not lend the NFA item to anyone. It must be used in your presence. Don't let it out of your sight or possession.

If you travel interstate with a SBR, SBS, machine gun or DD, you need to request permission for travel from the ATF using form 5320.20. Silencers and AOWs are exempt.

You may want to place a copy of Form 5 with your trust documents and stamped forms, with instructions on what to do upon your death. Think positive!

Enjoy your constitutionally protected right to have a short barreled, silenced machine gun!



Steps for purchasing (form 4):
  1. Find someone selling the NFA firearm you want.
  2. If it's outside your state, the firearm must first be transferred to an SOT inside your state. If the seller is also an SOT, the NFA firearm transfers tax-free on a form 3 from one SOT to another. If the seller is not an SOT, the NFA firearm transfers in a taxed transfer on a form 4. Taxed transfers are $200,with the exception of an AOW, which is only a $5 transfer tax.
  3. Once the firearm arrives at your dealer, or if you buy it from your dealer, the dealer will help you fill out a form 4 in duplicate to transfer the firearm to you. If buying in-state from a private seller, the seller should provide the form 4.
  4. Fill out an ATF form 4 in duplicate. The dealer should fill out most of this, and any parts that you have to fill out should be self-explanatory, but there are a few exceptions.
  5. Box 4c: Caliber. Put the actual caliber, even if the gun is marked “Multi”. The ATF will reject it otherwise.
  6. Box 4e: Barrel length. Put the actual barrel length. Muzzle devices that are not permanently attached are not included in the barrel length.
  7. Box 4f: Overall length. Firearms with folding stocks should be measured with the stocks opened to the fullest extent.
  8. Box 15: You must put a reason why you want the firearm. This is just an ATF CYA in case someone is stupid enough to put something illegal, or something that implies illegality. For example, “Disappointed with recent election results” would not be a good reason to use. Just use “All lawful purposes.”
  9. Print out the form in duplex (i.e. on both sides of the paper). ATF policy is to reject forms printed only on one side of the paper.
  10. Get two passport photos taken. Attach them to the back of the form 4. (Not necessary for a trust.)
  11. Get your fingerprints taken. Try the sheriff's office or your police department. (Not necessary for a trust.)
  12. Get the CLEO signoff. (Not necessary for a trust.)
  13. Make out a check to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Use a personal check so that you can see when it clears, then you'll know when the paperwork's been received and the approval process has started.
  14. Make a photocopy of the front of the form 4 for your records.
  15. Mail it all to the address on the form 4.
  16. Wait. There is a backlog of forms to be processed, so your form goes into a queue. When your form is processed, the ATF takes the information off of the form 4 and inputs it into the National Firearms Registry and Transfer Record (NFRTR), their database of all legal NFA firearms. Any time an NFA firearm is manufactured or transferred, the ATF is supposed to update the NFRTR.
  17. Wait some more. Seriously, it can take a really long time. Sometimes it’s just a month or two. Usually it’s under a year. The NFA Tracker is a website which will let you see how long other people have had to wait for their forms to be approved, and will let you estimate how long it will take for your form’s approval.
  18. If your transfer is taking longer than other people who submitted their forms around the same time, call the ATF’s NFA Branch at 304-616-4500 and ask for your transfer’s status. They will ask for the name of the transferor, the name of the transferee (you or your trust) and the serial number of the gun. This is the reason to save a photocopy of the form 4.
  19. When the approved form 4 arrives at the transferor, pick up the gun and the form from the seller. The approved form will have a canceled tax stamp affixed to it, which is the proof that the transfer tax was paid. A blue tax stamp is for $200 transfers, and a red stamp is for $5 AOW transfers.



  20. Make copies of the form. Take the copies when you go shooting in case the police or range master wants to make sure the gun is legal. Store the original form somewhere secure like your gun safe, or a safe deposit box. Remember above where I said the ATF is "supposed to update the NFRTR?" Well, mistakes happen. They've gotten a lot better lately but it's still a possibility. The ATF is supposed to retain the duplicate form 4 which you sent, but if they lose it, your gun might show up as unregistered. Having the original form will make your life a lot easier if that happens. Don’t laminate the original form, as that makes identifying it as an original more difficult.

Steps for making (form 1):
It's also possible to legally make your own NFA firearm, as long as it's not a machine gun. You can either build the gun from scratch, or modify a normal firearm into an NFA firearm. The process to make an NFA firearm is very similar to the transfer of an NFA firearm.
  1. Engrave the name of the entity making the gun (you or your trust) and the entity’s city & state on the gun. Do the engraving first. This way if the engraver screws up the engraving or the gun gets lost in the mail to or from the engravers you'll have fewer problems. The engraving must be at least .003" deep and the letters must be at least 3/16" high. A local trophy shop or similar engraver usually doesn’t engrave the letters deep enough; you’ll probably need to send the gun to an FFL/SOT who does firearm engraving (see links at the end of this post).
  2. Fill out an ATF form 1 in duplicate.
  3. Get two passport photos, fingerprint cards and the CLEO signoff, like a form 4. (Again, not necessary for a trust.)
  4. Make out a check to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. The making tax for all NFA firearms, including AOWs, is $200.
  5. Mail everything to the address on the form 1 and wait.
  6. Once you receive the approved form, make the NFA firearm. Depending on the firearm, this may be as simple as attaching a short upper on an AR15, or as complicated as firing up your lathe, drill press and/or CNC machine if you’re more mechanically inclined.
eForms:
If your trust is filing a form 1, you have the option of using the ATF’s web-based eForms system. This system will be expanded to form 4’s and other forms, and possibly transfers to real persons, sometime in 2015 or later. AR15.com has a guide with screenshots on how to use the eForm system. The eForms system is usually faster than paper forms. The only (extremely small) downside to eForms is that instead of getting a pretty stamp on a paper form, you just get a black & white PDF file emailed to you.

ATF Link: https://www.atfonline.gov/EForms/

An extra warning from Roundboy:

quote:

Also the ATF apparently auto-refunds rejected efile stamps. This takes X time where x is weeks/months

In the past, when you filled out a paper form, and there was a correctable mistake, you could amend it and get right back in line. Apparently the policy for efile is a simple reject / approve. So, its faster, but make sure your poo poo is 100% fine.

Additional notes from DkHelmet:

quote:

If you are manufacturing a SBR or SBS on a Form 1, you'll need to get it engraved properly. I've worked with Orion Arms, they're not bad and have a quick turnaround. I've heard that you should get it engraved before you file the Form 1 since afterward it's a NFA item and problematic to ship, but I can't confirm this. Engraving must be trust name, City, State: "DkHelmet NFA Revocable Living Trust, Achin rear end in a top hat, AK".

That being said... DO NOT ABBREVIATE ANYTHING ON THE ENGRAVING OR ON THE PAPERWORK because this will lead to a disapproved form!

For the purposes of ARs, the lower receiver counts as the "firearm." From what I understand, it doesn't matter what lower you get as long as it's within spec. Obviously, pick one that is compatible with the upper you want to go with it!

State restrictions:
Most states have no additional restrictions beyond federal law. Some states have additional state-level registration requirements, and/or ban certain types of NFA firearms, while allowing others. The types of NFA firearms that are allowed in different states has changed quite a lot in some states recently (mostly for the better), so don’t go just by some list that you find on the internet, it’s quite possibly out of date.

Transportation requirements:
ATF permission is required prior to interstate transport of a machine gun, SBR, SBS or destructive device, for either temporary transport or a permanent move. AOWs and suppressors do not require permission. To get permission, submit a ATF form 5320.20 to the NFA branch. Approved 5320.20 forms for non-permanent moves can be valid for up to a year, and the ATF usually approves them much quicker than a form 1 or form 4.

Storage requirements:
There is no statutory requirement to store your NFA firearms in a safe, per se. What is required is that you not transfer your NFA firearms to another person without filling out a form 4 and getting ATF approval. What this means is that other people can't use your NFA guns while you're not there with them. If you’re about to shell out the money for NFA firearms, you’re not terribly poor, so you should probably have a safe already anyways. If you need more than one person to legally have access to your NFA firearms then it's best to use a trust or LLC as described above.

Age requirements:
In order for an FFL to transfer any firearm (NFA or non-NFA), the transferee must be at least 21 years old, according to federal law. There is an exception which allows FFLs to transfer non-NFA rifles and shotguns to 18-20 year olds. However NFA firearms, including SBRs and SBSes, do not meet this exception. But the age requirement to possess an NFA firearm is only 18. This means that an 18-20 year old may build NFA firearms on a form 1, and may have NFA firearms transferred to them by another non-licensee who is a resident of the same state, on a form 4. If it’s a trust with multiple trustees, an 18-20 year old may also possess NFA firearms that the trust owns, which were transferred into the trust from an FFL, through a different trustee who is 21 or older.

That’s about it. Feel free to ask questions in the thread. There is no such thing as a dumb question.

Links:

NFA Tracker, crowd-sourced form 1 and form 4 completion times (run by a goon).

NFA discussion boards:
Subguns.com NFA discussion board & NFA classifieds
Sturmgewehr.com NFA discussion board & NFA classifieds
Silencer Talk

Firearm engraving (for form 1s):
Ident Marking
Orion Arms
Gray Laser

Suppressor manufacturers (listed alphabetically):
Advanced Armament (AAC)
AWC
Coastal Gun
Gemtech
Griffin Armament
SilencerCo
SRT Arms
Thompson Machine
Thunder Beast Arms
TROS USA

Suppressor dealers:
Verona Gun Safe (goon dealer)
Silencer Shop
Capitol Armory

Suppressor reviews:
Silencer Forum Reviews

Search for your local Class 3 dealers:
Subguns Directory


Legal:
ATF NFA Handbook (FAQ)
ATF eForms

Insane Totoro fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Jun 3, 2015

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DJExile
Jun 27, 2007



How much money have I convinced you to spend now?

Also suppressed .22s own

Roundboy
Oct 21, 2008


I also became a man today and got in on this.

what can one expect to do in the next 4-6 months while he waits? but seriosuly, what things should someone get to keep a can in good order? anti-seize for threads? gloves? special tools ?

Insane Totoro
Dec 5, 2005

Take cover!!!
That Totoro has an AR-15!


DJExile posted:

How much money have I convinced you to spend now?

Also suppressed .22s own

Eh, only about $1500.


Edit: Also if anyone lives in eastern PA, PM me for the $40 transfer guy.

Insane Totoro fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Sep 27, 2011

Alex P Corn
Jun 4, 2005

be careful what you dream for

SOMEBODY SERIOUSLY SPENT TEN BUCKS ON THIS

I can indeed order from the entire Gemtech catalog.

Craptacular
Jul 11, 2004



Roundboy posted:

what can one expect to do in the next 4-6 months while he waits? but seriosuly, what things should someone get to keep a can in good order? anti-seize for threads? gloves? special tools ?

Get all your .22LR guns threaded. Get a cheap pair of thick leather welding gloves so you can handle a suppressor right after firing it.

I've got four Gemtech's, including a IID; I'll post some pictures later if you want.

Craptacular
Jul 11, 2004



I'm a Gemtech fanboi.

Outback IID assembled with disassembly tool

Disassembled with baffle stack

Baffle stack separated

Thread insert

Outback on my CZ452 Varmint

G5 on my 11.5" 5.56mm upper

Mk9K on my 9" 9mm upper

HVT-QD on my Remington 700 (covered with a TAB Gear Nomex suppressor cover)


I've experienced nothing but excellent service from Gemtech and would buy another suppressor if I had a need for one.

Craptacular fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Sep 28, 2011

Propagandalf
Dec 6, 2008

itchy itchy itchy itchy

If you had to do it again, would you get the G5?

Craptacular
Jul 11, 2004



Sure. The only problem I've had is when I bought some PWS Quickcomp FSC556 brakes (which have G5 mounting lugs). Apparently there were some dimensional issues on the lugs, even though PWS licensed the specs from Gemtech, and I got the G5 stuck on one. Gemtech removed it for free and and returned it with a free Gemtech G5 mount too. I haven't had any problems using Gemtech mounts.

Edit: Also, note that the Outback pictured above was manufactured in 2003 but I recently received it back from Gemtech where they converted to a IID. I haven't shot it yet, so it's a lot cleaner than it would otherwise be.

Craptacular fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Sep 28, 2011

Roundboy
Oct 21, 2008


Craptacular posted:

Sure. The only problem I've had is when I bought some PWS Quickcomp FSC556 brakes (which have G5 mounting lugs). Apparently there were some dimensional issues on the lugs, even though PWS licensed the specs from Gemtech, and I got the G5 stuck on one. Gemtech removed it for free and and returned it with a free Gemtech G5 mount too. I haven't had any problems using Gemtech mounts.

Edit: Also, note that the Outback pictured above was manufactured in 2003 but I recently received it back from Gemtech where they converted to a IID. I haven't shot it yet, so it's a lot cleaner than it would otherwise be.

and wouldn't have that scratch

I picture myself taking this thing apart the day i get it and just fondling every part.. do the baffles go in a specific order?

What type of maintaining do you do for it? any special problems with aluminium cans vs stainless?

Craptacular
Jul 11, 2004



Yeah the front baffle doesn't have notches in the front. The other 5 are interchangeable, but you're supposed to stagger the offset holes in a certain pattern for optimal sound reduction. I don't think it would harm it if you got the pattern wrong though, it just wouldn't be as quiet as it could be.

As for cleaning, it was a plain Outback before, so I couldn't disassemble it. When I sent it back to them it was almost twice as heavy as it should have been from the accumulated lead (3.9oz versus 2.0oz from the factory). The only thing I could do was immerse it in WD40, which did loosen some of the accumulated lead but obviously it still built up after awhile.

FMJ centerfire ammo doesn't produce the vaporized lead that bare lead .22LR bullets do, so centerfire suppressors generally aren't capable of being disassembled, as there's no need. Although for some reason, the Mk9K can be disassembled.

Insane Totoro
Dec 5, 2005

Take cover!!!
That Totoro has an AR-15!


Just wrote out a check.

poo poo JUST GOT REAL

lifenomad
May 8, 2009




Insane Totoro posted:

poo poo JUST GOT REAL

SILENCERS FOR ALL!

IMMA GETTIN MAH PEN READY!

Alex P Corn, you will be receiving an email from me soon.

Roundboy
Oct 21, 2008


lifenomad posted:

SILENCERS FOR ALL!

IMMA GETTIN MAH PEN READY!

Alex P Corn, you will be receiving an email from me soon.

good man. Now where are you so we can use the same transfer dealer

ZeusCannon
Nov 5, 2009

BLAAAAAARGH PLEASE KILL ME BLAAAAAAAARGH

Grimey Drawer

I'm slightly uninformed when it comes to this stuff but could someone from MD partake in this group buy?

Alex P Corn
Jun 4, 2005

be careful what you dream for

SOMEBODY SERIOUSLY SPENT TEN BUCKS ON THIS

ZeusCannon posted:

I'm slightly uninformed when it comes to this stuff but could someone from MD partake in this group buy?

Anybody from any state can participate as long as silencers are legal in your state.

If silencers happen to be illegal in your state you can still participate but you can't ever take possession of it. You'd basically buy it from me and then post on sturm that you have a suppressor for sale on a Form 3 for $your_cost + $a_few_bucks + $shipping and make a little bit of money.

A quick search indicates that silencers are legal in Maryland.

Insane Totoro
Dec 5, 2005

Take cover!!!
That Totoro has an AR-15!


Roundboy posted:

good man. Now where are you so we can use the same transfer dealer

He's in Harrisburg. Three shipped to the same Class 3 dealer?

ZeusCannon
Nov 5, 2009

BLAAAAAARGH PLEASE KILL ME BLAAAAAAAARGH

Grimey Drawer

Thanks I would definitely like to pick up an Outback but I have to figure out how to do the tax stamps first since I have never done this type of purchase before. And find a Class 3 dealer near me, to ship to.

Alex P Corn
Jun 4, 2005

be careful what you dream for

SOMEBODY SERIOUSLY SPENT TEN BUCKS ON THIS

Insane Totoro posted:

He's in Harrisburg. Three shipped to the same Class 3 dealer?

I'll ship as many as you want to the same dealer.

Roundboy
Oct 21, 2008


He is already 1/2 way there. Prob the same drive to willow grove (or upper Darby) as it is to Pitt from there

Insane Totoro
Dec 5, 2005

Take cover!!!
That Totoro has an AR-15!


ZeusCannon posted:

Thanks I would definitely like to pick up an Outback but I have to figure out how to do the tax stamps first since I have never done this type of purchase before. And find a Class 3 dealer near me, to ship to.

Step one: Find a Class 3 dealer in your area.

Step two: Figure out if your LEO will sign off on it.

Step three: Write check.

lifenomad
May 8, 2009




INSANE TOTORO CONVINCED ME TO BUY A SUPPRESSOR

Insane Totoro
Dec 5, 2005

Take cover!!!
That Totoro has an AR-15!


lifenomad posted:

INSANE TOTORO CONVINCED ME TO BUY A SUPPRESSOR



The world has been turned upside down.



Insane Totoro is convincing people to buy things. CATS AND DOGS ARE LIVING TOGETHER

CmdrRat
Jan 15, 2004
Sucks at Russian Roulette

I own a Gemtech G5 and a Outback II, I give both high marks.

Gemtech is awesome. If anyone has seen my posts before about them you might be surprised that I can post at all but I was able to take their dick out of my mouth to get to the computer, so here I am.

I am dying to know what the price break would be in the Outback.

Insane Totoro
Dec 5, 2005

Take cover!!!
That Totoro has an AR-15!


CmdrRat posted:

I own a Gemtech G5 and a Outback II, I give both high marks.

Gemtech is awesome. If anyone has seen my posts before about them you might be surprised that I can post at all but I was able to take their dick out of my mouth to get to the computer, so here I am.

I am dying to know what the price break would be in the Outback.

Email Alex (his email is in the OP).

powers
Jul 26, 2005

The Maller is an Amarrian frigate, used by hotdroppers.

~SMcD

I was down from the inception, but then I had to spend the money on legal stuff, to the tune of $750. I regret that, but I'll probably be buying one in a few months.

Alex P Corn
Jun 4, 2005

be careful what you dream for

SOMEBODY SERIOUSLY SPENT TEN BUCKS ON THIS

powers posted:

I was down from the inception, but then I had to spend the money on legal stuff, to the tune of $750. I regret that, but I'll probably be buying one in a few months.

We can do another group buy.

And CmdrRat: alexcorn@gmail.com

Atticus_1354
Dec 9, 2006

Don't you go near that dog, you understand? Don't go near him, he's just as dangerous dead as alive.


I really wish I had the money for an alpine. If you do another group buy in a few months I will try definitely try and come up with the money.

I like turtles
Aug 6, 2009



What's the functional difference between an Alpine and the Outback? I see the Alpine is rated for .17, but spec wise that's about it. Oh yeah, it also looks to be dimpled for easier grip.
Is the alpine much quieter?

CmdrRat
Jan 15, 2004
Sucks at Russian Roulette

I like turtles posted:

What's the functional difference between an Alpine and the Outback? I see the Alpine is rated for .17, but spec wise that's about it. Oh yeah, it also looks to be dimpled for easier grip.
Is the alpine much quieter?

The Alpine is an ounce or more heaver then the outback, and I think is ok on full auto, where as the Outback is lighter and shorter.

The original outback wasn't users cleanable. the new version (D) is.

Outback is cheaper, I think I remember reading the alpine was a bit quieter, but I can shoot my Outback without hearing protection just fine(assuming others aren't shooting).

Atticus_1354
Dec 9, 2006

Don't you go near that dog, you understand? Don't go near him, he's just as dangerous dead as alive.


I like turtles posted:

What's the functional difference between an Alpine and the Outback? I see the Alpine is rated for .17, but spec wise that's about it. Oh yeah, it also looks to be dimpled for easier grip.
Is the alpine much quieter?

I like that it is rated for .22WMR and .17. Also I like the design a little better.

Insane Totoro
Dec 5, 2005

Take cover!!!
That Totoro has an AR-15!


Talked to someone and they asked "why didn't you buy two at that price?"

Get on this, people.

Roundboy
Oct 21, 2008


just going to post this here:

White House Petition to Hire more people for NFA transfers

Roundboy fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Oct 5, 2011

Insane Totoro
Dec 5, 2005

Take cover!!!
That Totoro has an AR-15!


And for any of you eastern PA goons on the fence, I know a guy who does really really cheap barrel threading jobs near Philly.

DkHelmet
Jul 10, 2001

I pity the foal...


Insane Totoro posted:

And for any of you eastern PA goons on the fence, I know a guy who does really really cheap barrel threading jobs near Philly.

YOU! Tell me now.

Steak Flavored Gum
Apr 26, 2007

ABANDONED HOMEWORLD FOR SALE, CHEAP!!!
Custom desert-marsh conversion in galactic core, 12% oxygen atm., great weather, friendly native life (missing one moon). Great fix-er-upper. Must sell, alien invasion imminent. $3995 or best offer.

Would he thread a Sig 556, do you think?

Black Stormy
Apr 1, 2003



Steak Flavored Gum posted:

Would he thread a Sig 556, do you think?

You have a non-threaded 556?

Spazz
Nov 17, 2005



If it's too late to get in on this one let me know about the next one...

Roundboy
Oct 21, 2008


well poo poo look what i just found:

http://www.summitgunbroker.com/22-45_TB_Rail.html

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Insane Totoro
Dec 5, 2005

Take cover!!!
That Totoro has an AR-15!


Sell old .22 pistol, hello new one.

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