Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us $3,400 per month for bandwidth bills alone, and since we don't believe in shoving popup ads to our registered users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
«151 »
  • Locked thread
Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play


It seems in just about every D&D thread, there's a post every ten pages or so with someone asking for help with debating a friend on Facebook, a relative via email, a racist coworker, etc. Since lots of people in D&D have very particular knowledge, it's often hard to debate every issue and be highly informed about all of it. So let's work together to help goons debate crazy people/wrong people with concrete facts and informed arguments!

This is also sort of necessary because, in general, most D&Ders agree on most issues, and it would be good to get a thread with opposing views and discussions of rhetoric for the forum, rather than leaving it as it is, which is mostly a news & politics discussion space.

So let's help each other out with knowing where to look for good evidence to back up arguments, etc.

Here are things which you can read and link to in order to debunk made up bullshit (Thanks especially to internaut several people for linking most of these. The rest of you are Randian leeches.)

2015 update: A lot of these are probably a little outdated at this point (though hopefully all the links still work), and I went a long time without being able to check the thread unfortunately, but if you have an article you think could be added to the OP, either as a new category or to replace an outdated link, just let me know. I'll be reading all new posts and can get PMs.

General US politics, how to argue, and how to deal with libertarians
ShadowCatboy's OP on debating diplomatically
The paranoid style in American politics
A non-libertarian FAQ, contains critiques of various libertarian positions
Liberalism FAQ, articulates many aspects of (American/progressive) liberalism and how to argue liberal positions
Prester John's thread "Decoding Authoritarians: A schizophrenic explains crazy people. A very interesting and original perspective.
Franz Oppenheimer: The Idolatry of the State
Study - studies are worthless when it comes to changing someone's opinion

Employment, economy, and inequality
US Senators' stock picks outperform stock picking specialists
Historically, US economy is much better off under Democratic presidents than Republican
Story's thread deflating the myth of the American Dream. Link to full study on intergenerational social mobility
wigga please's thread in opposition to privatization policies
Poor people didn't cause the financial collapse of 2008: Part 1 Part 2
Mother Jones compilation of charts on wealth inequality
The Anarcho-Libertarian Utopia ? A Critique
Professor Richard D. Wolff - Marxian Economics at UMass Amherst
There is no such thing as a free market.
US Business Cycle Expansions and Contractions: Evidence for when goldbugs and Paulites insist the Fed is the root of all evil in American capitalism. Recessions have been shorter and less frequent with active government intervention and the departure from laissez-faire.
Elizabeth Warren, "The Coming Collapse of the Middle Class"
Minimum wage does not necessarily have negative consequences for economic growth and lowering minimum wage hurts agents in the economy
Rise in minimum wage significantly increased teenage wages without impacting teen employment (PDF). Studies from the '60s to the '80s claiming otherwise are a product of confirmation/selection bias among economists.
Raising the minimum wage doesn't affect unemployment (PDF), with built-in responses to every stupid study and claim you'll probably find claiming otherwise.
The Department of Labor has its own "Minimum Wage Mythbusters" page, which is sure to piss off a lot of conservatives and libertarians. This is good.
IMF study showing that wealth inequality is bad for job growth (PDF)
It's really hard to find work as a recent college graduate
Unionization makes workplaces safer, and right-to-work laws hurt unions' ability to make the workplace safer (PDF)
Virtually no correlation between CEO pay and stock performance
Study showing negative correlation between CEO pay and stock performance
Free trade didn't make the US and Great Britain rich, and it won't necessarily make the underdeveloped world rich either.
NAFTA was terrible for Mexicans(PDF) Really!

The Welfare State
Polls show a huge divide between what people think welfare is and what it actually is - it's from the UK but most of the conclusions are almost certainly the same in the US, where the welfare system is even more spartan.
Often-ignored facts about SNAP beneficiaries - who benefits (children), who can't (undocumented immigrants), how common is fraud (not at all), etc.
A similar article in The Atlantic, quoting a USDA study (the study is from 2010, this one is more up to date).
Drug testing welfare recipients is a giant waste of time and money. Unfortunately I don't know of any authoritative-sounding academic studies of this, but the evidence is clear even in mainstream media outlets. The Salon piece is full of good links.
Drug testing welfare recipients in Florida cost the state money and helped line the governor's pockets.
People who lose their job usually need 5 or more months to find a new one
The Business Case for Increasing SNAP - Annually-updated PDFs showing that SNAP, and increasing SNAP funding and availability, is good for the economy. SNAP has a positive return on investment for the economy!

Taxes
Government study into the effects of the Fairtax (chapter 9) - would be bad
Bush Tax Cuts did NOT increase tax revenue
Economists agree that stimulus helps the economy
Top income earners pay only 16.68% tax in the US
Per CBO estimates, extending tax cuts on the rich will reduce the unemployment rate by between 0% and 0.1%
Dr. Arbitrary's "100 people go to see a movie", an analogy of US wealth and taxation based on 2012 tax data, written in response to a really irritating chain email that misrepresents how things work.

Healthcare
Health insurance one of the least competitive markets
Mortality amenable to health care = US has the highest mortality in the 20 countries
Study - US spends twice as much on health care than the UK and has worse health outcomes
62% of bankruptcies in the US caused by medical bills, 75% of those had health insurance (PDF)
Gul Banana's old OP for the thread "Why UHC is unambiguously necessary for America" in D&D
CBO paper on why tort reform won't magically fix the healthcare system in the US (PDF)
"Illness and Injury as Contributors to Bankruptcy"
The Plural of Anecdote: Refreshing will pull up different comparisons of healthcare costs and wait times in Canada and the US. The US is never better.

Education
Stronger teacher's unions correlated with better student performance
Toyota offered hundreds of millions of dollars in tax breaks from Southern states, opts to build plant in Ontario instead, because underfunded education in the South produces barely-literate employees which cost more money to train in the long run. Honda and Nissan encountered similar problems.
White students receive a disproportionate number of private scholarships (PDF). Scholarships targeting students of color don't come close to making up the difference.

Military and war
Increase in terrorism after the War on Terrorism began
1/3 of women in the US military are raped

Middle East, Israel/Palestine, and Mohommadism
Lancet study on the humanitarian crisis in Israeli occupied territories (PDF)
Human Sciences Rsearch Council report on how the Israeli-occupied territories meet the legal definition of apartheid (PDF)
PCPSR, the main polling institution in the Palestinian Territories
fade5's post (with pictures!) from the Right Wing Media thread showing the effects of US airstrikes on IS in Kurdistan. Use this if people accuse the Obama administration of fiddling while IS takes over the entire region, I guess. (Follow-up: Kurds are naming their babbies "Muhammad Obama Muslim" now )
At least in terms of number of attacks, most terrorists aren't Muslims: In Europe disproportionately few terror attacks are carried out by Muslims.

LGBTQ stuff
Study - homophobia associated with homosexual arousal
Homosexuality and Mental Health - summarizes some of the history of homosexuality and psychology, including its former classification as a mental illness
Psychiatry: Homosexuals Can Be Cured - From 1965, an interesting look at the attitudes of the time.
Facts About Changing Sexual Orientation
The History of the DSM and Gender Identity Disorder
Depathologizing Trans* Individuals - Regarding the DSM-V and how the more things change the more they stay the same
Genetics and environment determine sexual orientation. PDF
A study showing a correlation between endocrine signaling and sexual orientation that suggests at least a biological proclivity towards one sexual orientation or another
1,500 animal species practice homosexuality

War on women retaliation station
Study - dressing in revealing clothing does not lead to more surprise sex
The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion
1/3 of women in the US military are raped
Women in STEM fields will be judged unqualified for a position where a man with the same qualifications will be regarded as competent.
Mammalian wombs are not oxygen-rich enough for fetuses to be conscious. Fetuses cannot consciously suffer, contrary to pro-life claims (PDF).
Disinterested's well-sourced post on Female Genital Mutilation. Provides info on where it's practiced and why, as well as how information on the practice is gathered.

Race, crime, and imprisonment
Police brutality and race article with lots of links to studies and the like
Death penalty - no deterrent effect
Study - black men face discrimination in hiring
Study - ligher skinned black people received lesser jail sentences
Zeigeist's thread on a Tim Wise article, collects a huge amount of studies showing the racial disparity in the US. Download article
Story's thread in defence of affirmative action policies
Innocents convicted: an empirically justified factual wrongful conviction rate | Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology
The Ferguson Masterpost: How To Argue Eloquently & Back Yourself Up With Facts ("In case you get stuck in any sort of time warp arguing with racists about Mike Brown")
How To Tell Someone They Sound Racist, a short video on the benefits of saying "what you said is racist" rather than "you're a racist".
Collection of MLK quotes compiled by Jerry Manderbilt, for use when white people try and claim MLK would have condemned current protests and riots by people of color.
Black fathers are at least as involved with their children's lives as white fathers
Al Sharpton and other black leaders already do march to protest black-on-black crime, so shut the hell up about it.

War on Drugs
Glenn Greenwald's study into drug decriminalization in Portugal - many benefits (PDF)
An authoritative source that outlines the benefits of legalizing weed and the problems created by not doing so

Guns
Better gun law enforcement rather than further restrictions on gun supply reduce gun crime (PDF)
States with laxer gun laws have higher gun crime
Study - guns in the home more likely to provide health risk than benefit
Firearms and violence: interpreting the connection. PDF download

Environment
How to talk to a climate skeptic, contains responses to various climate skeptic claims with links to evidence
This one is a mirror of the first, from what I can tell, but there may be some slight differences or you may prefer the layout. And it's a mirror of the content, in any case.
Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: A list of "Climate myths" and "What the science says" about each, including links to articles giving more information about each.

Science
Not Saint Darwin (PDF)
An Index to Creationist Claims: A very thorough, if dry, rebuttal to Creationist arguments which distort or misunderstand science on both evidential and ethical/moral grounds.

General religion
Sinnlos' brief summaries of American Protestant denominations (history and beliefs): Baptists -- Methodists -- Pentecostals
American Catholics lean left on gay rights and pretty much every other issue too

Miscellaneous bullshit and curios, to be categorized when more articles are linked
Hand sanitizers worthless to prevent infection
Average football game has 11 minutes of play (more time devoted to showing replays)
The little-told story of how the U.S. government poisoned alcohol during Prohibition. - By Deborah Blum - Slate Magazine
Prevalence of Child Malnutrition (Percent Underweight Under Age Five) - GlobalHealthFacts.org
Why We Don't Need Money - A sane alternative way of allocating resources
Do conservative governments make people want to die? Mortality and political climate: how suicide rates have risen during periods of Conservative government, 19012000 (PDF)

Cognac McCarthy fucked around with this message at May 6, 2015 around 08:22

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


Would a sources and citations thread/post help? I know I'm always hunting for that citation I saw someone use that one time...

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play


Paul MaudDib posted:

Would a sources and citations thread/post help? I know I'm always hunting for that citation I saw someone use that one time...

Yes, please. I don't want this to be a simple "tell me what to think/say" thread: we should be helping each other debate more effectively. Both because it's important to discuss the issues from a supported position and because we could all be better at engaging with people who disagree with us. Given the diversity of knowledge bases in D&D, including "looking for an article I read" posts in this thread would be great, too.

Note: this isn't meant to be a groupthink thread. Like I mentioned in my request for help, we each have some understanding of what arguments will work better than others with the person we're debating. This should serve as a resource and document base we can all check into and help each other out with, if we want.

But Rocks Hurt Head
Jun 30, 2003

DAMN, THAT MUST BE KOOPA. I'M SURE IT'S ALSO HIM WHO'S TAKEN THE PRINCESS AWAY. OK, LET'S GO GET HIM TOGETHER!


Pillbug

At least once every 10 or so pages in the Freep, Political Cartoons, Glenn Beck, and other 'Look At These Dumbass Conservatives' threads, someone will ponder over the conservative mindset, and at least one person will point out Prof. Bob Altemeyer's The Authoritarians, a free ebook/textbook on the phenomenon of Right-Wing Authoritarianism.

The book, and two additional postscripts on the 2008 election and the rise of the Tea Party, are available free from his website at the University of Manitoba:

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

The book is a fascinating read, relatively short, and well-cited with studies the author and his colleagues have done over the last 20 or so years. From the website:

quote:

OK, whats this book about? Its about whats happened to the American government lately. Its about the disastrous decisions that government has made. Its about the corruption that rotted the Congress. Its about how traditional conservatism has nearly been destroyed by authoritarianism. Its about how the Religious Right teamed up with amoral authoritarian leaders to push its un-democratic agenda onto the country. Its about the United States standing at the crossroads as the next federal election approaches.

Well, you might be thinking, I dont believe any of this is true. Or maybe, youre thinking, What else is new? Ive believed this for years. Why should a conservative, moderate, or liberal bother with this book? Why should any Republican, Independent, or Democrat click the Whole Book link on this page?

Because if you do, youll begin an easy-ride journey through some very relevant scientific studies I have done on authoritarian personalities--one that will take you a heck of a lot less time than the decades it took me. Those studies have a direct bearing on all the topics mentioned above. So if you think the first paragraph is a lot of hokum, or full of half-truths, I invite you to look at the research.

For example, take the following statement: Once our government leaders and the authorities condemn the dangerous elements in our society, it will be the duty of every patriotic citizen to help stomp out the rot that is poisoning our country from within. Sounds like something Hitler would say, right? Want to guess how many politicians, how many lawmakers in the United States agreed with it? Want to guess what they had in common?

Or how about a government program that persecutes political parties, or minorities, or journalists the authorities do not like, by putting them in jail, even torturing and killing them. Nobody would approve of that, right? Guess again.

Dont think for a minute this doesnt concern you personally. Let me ask you, as were passing the time here, how many ordinary people do you think an evil authority would have to order to kill you before he found someone who would, unjustly, out of sheer obedience, just because the authority said to? What sort of person is most likely to follow such an order? What kind of official is most likely to give that order, if it suited his purposes? Look at what experiments tell us, as I did.

If, on the other hand, youre way ahead of me, and believe the extreme right-wing elements in America are poised to take it over, permanently, I think you can still get a lot from this book. The studies explain so much about these people. Yes, the research shows they are very aggressive, but why are they so hostile? Yes, experiments show they are almost totally uninfluenced by reasoning and evidence, but why are they so dogmatic? Yes, studies show the Religious Right has more than its fair share of hypocrites, from top to bottom; but why are they two-faced, and how come one face never notices the other? Yes, their leaders can give the flimsiest of excuses and even outright lies about things theyve done wrong, but why do the rank and file believe them? What happens when authoritarian followers find the authoritarian leaders they crave and start marching together?

I think youll find this book explains a lot. Many scattered impressions about the enemies of freedom and equality become solidified by science and coherently connected here.

You think Im pulling your leg? Click the link.

Sometimes I feel like we should have the book in a stickied thread (along with Umberto Eco's quote on fascists holding conflicting beliefs about the power of their enemies) at the top of D&D because it gets referred to so often.

The last chapter of Altmeyer's book is entitled 'What's to Be Done' - it depressingly explains why debate with individual RWA's is often futile, but suggests some broad political and societal steps that can be taken to stifle RWA on a national level.

But Rocks Hurt Head fucked around with this message at Oct 18, 2011 around 19:20

RogueTrick
Oct 27, 2006
Reverend to the Pirate Nation

Honestly though, never use that book in a debate, its patronizing as poo poo and its not going to change any minds. I like that book, but just watch what you do with it.

But Rocks Hurt Head
Jun 30, 2003

DAMN, THAT MUST BE KOOPA. I'M SURE IT'S ALSO HIM WHO'S TAKEN THE PRINCESS AWAY. OK, LET'S GO GET HIM TOGETHER!


Pillbug

Oh, right, totally. Don't try to dangle the book in front of someone you're trying to debate with.

In fact, right in the book there's a passage at the end:

quote:

Maybe the solution is right in front of our noses. How about having authoritarians read this book? I mentioned in chapter 1 that when high RWAs learn about right-wing authoritarianism, and the many undesirable things it correlates with such as prejudice, they frequently wish they were less authoritarian.

So isnt the solution to the problem as plain as the thing thats glaring you in the face right now? Would that it were so... So I predict most authoritarian followers would sail right through this book and compartmentalize, misinterpret, rationalize, and dogmatically deny it had anything to do with them personally. If you tried to force this self-awareness on them, they would probably run away, run away, as fast as they could. So good luck if you passed on this URL to your fascist Uncle George.

The book isn't a tool to be used in a debate, it's about understanding the people you're debating better, and why they're not responding to things like simple logic and reason.

RogueTrick
Oct 27, 2006
Reverend to the Pirate Nation

Sorry if I'm derailing this thread already, but you shouldn't even use it for that. Amateur social science is NOT helpful for understanding what another person is saying. Sociology cannot and should not be applied that way. If you do apply it that way, you're just inflating your own ego.

Edit: Well, it can be helpful, but it can just as easily really screw you up.

Morphix
May 21, 2003


Perfect thread!

I'm wondering if anyones written about the intersection of 'personal responsibility'* and Jesus. Specifically the appeal to a higher authority whenever something goes wrong and ones own personal responsibility regarding said event. I'm trying to come up with a cohesive way of stating this without resorting to loaded language.


*The conservative view of personal responsibility, "shouldn't have gotten addicted to drugs loser!"

internaut
Mar 2, 2007

I don't stop for nothin', kid.

Death penalty - no deterrent effect
Government study into the effects of the Fairtax (chapter 9) - would be bad
States with laxer gun laws have higher gun crime
Study - guns in the home more likely to provide health risk than benefit
Study - dressing in revealing clothing does not lead to more surprise sex
Increase in terrorism after the War on Terrorism began
Bush Tax Cuts did NOT increase tax revenue
Economists agree that stimulus helps the economy
The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion
Health insurance one of the least competitive markets
Mortality amenable to health care = US has the highest mortality in the 20 countries
1/3 of women in the US military are raped
Top income earners pay only 16.68% tax in the US
US Senators' stock picks outperform stock picking specialists
Hand sanitizers worthless to prevent infection
Stronger teacher's unions correlated with better student performance
Study - black men face discrimination in hiring
Study - ligher skinned black people received lesser jail sentences
Coal combustion releases more radioactive waste into environment than nuclear power
Glenn Greenwald's study into drug decriminalization in Portgual - many benefits



Average football game has 11 minutes of play (more time devoted to showing replays)
Study - homophobia associated with homosexual arousal
Study - studies are worthless when it comes to changing someone's opinion

internaut fucked around with this message at Oct 19, 2011 around 04:30

pawsplay
Jul 12, 2011


Morphix posted:

Perfect thread!

I'm wondering if anyones written about the intersection of 'personal responsibility'* and Jesus. Specifically the appeal to a higher authority whenever something goes wrong and ones own personal responsibility regarding said event. I'm trying to come up with a cohesive way of stating this without resorting to loaded language.


*The conservative view of personal responsibility, "shouldn't have gotten addicted to drugs loser!"

Matthrew 35:21-46

31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?' 40 And the king will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.' 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!

Biscuit Hider

What I'm really looking for is a professional, authoritative explanation of a theory I saw someone expound in brief in a thread on this forum recently.

Basically, it was an argument about how the high cost of education loans, health care, and wall street financial charges, were due to what was essentially a "toll booth" effect; that certain parties were gatekeepers that could monopolize entry into the economy at large, and that by virtue of their position they were able to extract huge value from the economy in zero or negative-sum transactions, much like the robber barons of the Rhine in ancient germany.

It was a great persuasive argument that was really useful for explaining a lot of things, such as (for example) why the OWS folks don't hate Steve Jobs but do hate Lloyd Blankfein.

I'd like a clear, professional, non polemic, jargon-free explanation of that theory that I can show to facebook friends without looking like a maoist third worldist. For example, the phrase "rentier capitalism" shouldn't show up in it, ideally -- for the people I'd like to show this to, anything that makes them twig to the fact that I'm selling far-left socialist theory will be counterproductive.

Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at Oct 18, 2011 around 20:21

namesake
Jun 19, 2006

"When I was a girl, around 12 or 13, I had a fantasy that I'd grow up to marry Captain Scarlet, but he'd be busy fighting the Mysterons so I'd cuckold him with the sexiest people I could think of - Nigel Mansell, Pat Sharp and Mr. Blobby."


Hieronymous Alloy posted:

I'd like a clear, professional, non polemic explanation of that theory that I can show to facebook friends without looking like a maoist third worldist.

I'm doing a Let's Read which focuses on the theory of monopoly capitalism and transnational corporations. It doesn't exactly say 'destroy easy entry into markets' but it shows why firms would act to make entry as difficult as possible and maximise profits.

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play




This is great, thanks. If you want to compartmentalize it into various broad issue categories, I'll add it to the OP. Or if you don't want to I'll do it myself.

I'll just add to this thread that I don't want to make it a cheerleading conservatives-are-dumb thread. We have the "crazy conservative email" thread for that.

Morphix
May 21, 2003


pawsplay posted:

Matthrew 35:21-46

31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?' 40 And the king will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.' 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

I'm seriously going to try to memorize this, thanks. What a wonderful little passage.

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth


Morphix posted:

I'm seriously going to try to memorize this, thanks. What a wonderful little passage.

The key sentence in that passage wasn't bolded, but it is when Jesus opens with the phrase he closes with: "Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me." (My emphasis). It's supposed to be the sensmorale, rather than the damnation part and the part about Jesus suffering.

CheeseSpawn
Sep 15, 2004



Clapping Larry

But Rocks Hurt Head posted:

At least once every 10 or so pages in the Freep, Political Cartoons, Glenn Beck, and other 'Look At These Dumbass Conservatives' threads, someone will ponder over the conservative mindset, and at least one person will point out Prof. Bob Altemeyer's The Authoritarians, a free ebook/textbook on the phenomenon of Right-Wing Authoritarianism.

The book, and two additional postscripts on the 2008 election and the rise of the Tea Party, are available free from his website at the University of Manitoba:

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

The book is a fascinating read, relatively short, and well-cited with studies the author and his colleagues have done over the last 20 or so years. From the website:


Sometimes I feel like we should have the book in a stickied thread (along with Umberto Eco's quote on fascists holding conflicting beliefs about the power of their enemies) at the top of D&D because it gets referred to so often.

The last chapter of Altmeyer's book is entitled 'What's to Be Done' - it depressingly explains why debate with individual RWA's is often futile, but suggests some broad political and societal steps that can be taken to stifle RWA on a national level.


Holy poo poo, it's like the rosetta stone for conservatives!

internaut
Mar 2, 2007

I don't stop for nothin', kid.

Here are some much larger documents I had laying around.

Study - US spends twice as much on health care than the UK and has worse health outcomes
62% of bankruptcies in the US caused by medical bills, 75% of those had health insurance
Gul Banana's old OP for the thread "Why UHC is unambiguously necessary for America" in D&D

Historically, US economy is much better off under Democratic presidents than Republican
Firearms and violence: interpreting the connection. PDF download

duck monster
Dec 15, 2004



Always a good read..

The paranoid style in american politics
http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/conspi...noid_style.html

e: fixed. LIEbrals are breaking my links

duck monster fucked around with this message at Oct 19, 2011 around 06:59

Mr. Self Destruct
Jan 1, 2008

lary


Your link is missing an "ml" at the end of it, duck monster. In case anyone can't figure that out themselves and gives up after clicking it.

Morphix
May 21, 2003


This is a fascinating thread, that bible quote alone for me is amazing.

If anyone is a web designer and wouldn't mind cooking up some sort of easy to navigate website that has this info, I'll pay for the hosting/design. Anyone interested shoot me an email at szmytkowski@gmail.com 100% serious.

Huragok
Sep 14, 2011



I'll contribute for free. Caveat: I do .NET / ASP.NET MVC

Morphix
May 21, 2003


Huragok posted:

I'll contribute for free. Caveat: I do .NET / ASP.NET MVC

I don't know what this means, but if you have the time and an idea on some sort of mechanism for others to add links, update stuff. I don't want it to become overloaded with a bunch of poo poo people have to wade through. But it would also be useful to get updated with new info once in a while.

If you have some ideas, shoot me an email. I think it could be a useful resource.

The Landstander
Apr 20, 2004

I stand on land.

This thread is a good idea, I hope requests are okay

One of the bigger arguments out there is the theory that the housing bubble was the result of Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac and 'government intrusion' in general as opposed to Wall Street deregulation. I seem to recall there was a very good article that debunked it in a systematic fashion that I found from here, but I don't recall a lot more than that (and it was awhile ago). I can find a bunch of smaller articles and even repositories of smaller articles (like from Media Matters), but I could've sworn there was a more focused 'this is why this is wrong' article.

If anyone had this it would be a good addition.

evilweasel
Aug 24, 2002




Just fyi, per that link a football game has cheerleaders for 0.45% of the time they have "football action" (three seconds as opposed to 11 minutes) so that description is a little off.

Lester Shy
May 1, 2002

Do The Brown Nose

But Rocks Hurt Head posted:

(along with Umberto Eco's quote on fascists holding conflicting beliefs about the power of their enemies)

Anybody have this lying around? I think someone mentioned that it's in Ur-Fascism, but I can't seem to find the exact quote right now.

Tim Pawlenty
Jun 3, 2006


Lester Shy posted:

Anybody have this lying around? I think someone mentioned that it's in Ur-Fascism, but I can't seem to find the exact quote right now.

It's a short essay you can find the full version on google, it should be the first result for ur-fascism.
Here's the quote:
Followers must feel humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their
enemies. When I was a boy I was taught to think of Englishmen as the five-meal people.
They ate more frequently than the poor but sober Italians. Jews are rich and help each
other through a secret web of mutual assistance. However, the followers must be
convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of
rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak. Fascist
governments are condemned to lose wars because they are constitutionally incapable of
objectively evaluating the force of the enemy.

internaut
Mar 2, 2007

I don't stop for nothin', kid.

evilweasel posted:

Just fyi, per that link a football game has cheerleaders for 0.45% of the time they have "football action" (three seconds as opposed to 11 minutes) so that description is a little off.

Yeah I was way off for that one. I also confused "crowd shots" with "standing around". Standing around takes up 58.5% of the time, gameplay takes up 9.4% and crowd shots only 0.9% of the time.

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play


The Landstander posted:

This thread is a good idea, I hope requests are okay


Yes, please, I had requests in mind when I started the thread.

I could still use some help with a response to my question in the OP.

ReidRansom
Oct 25, 2004

からあげクン
は俺の守護神だ。


Way back when we tried to make a wiki of this sort of thing in LF, but you know, LF, so that didn't work at all. This was kind of the idea though, a repository for all the informative kind of poo poo that gets posted but not everyone keeps up with. One stop argument shop.

Bruce Leroy
Jun 10, 2010


The Landstander posted:

This thread is a good idea, I hope requests are okay

One of the bigger arguments out there is the theory that the housing bubble was the result of Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac and 'government intrusion' in general as opposed to Wall Street deregulation. I seem to recall there was a very good article that debunked it in a systematic fashion that I found from here, but I don't recall a lot more than that (and it was awhile ago). I can find a bunch of smaller articles and even repositories of smaller articles (like from Media Matters), but I could've sworn there was a more focused 'this is why this is wrong' article.

If anyone had this it would be a good addition.

All the Devils Are Here is supposed to be a very thorough and accurate reporting and analysis of what happened, though I haven't read the book, but I've seen interviews with the authors about the book.

This should be a great resource for the topic, but it's probably going to take much longer to answer your specific questions than the article to which you are alluding.

Yoshifan823
Feb 19, 2007

by FactsAreUseless


I'm talking with some people on the internet about education, and someone asked about Charter Schools, and aside from laying out some basic points about why privatized education is a terrible idea, The Myth of Charter Schools is something I always cite, just because it's incredibly well laid out and takes something quite a few people have seen (Waiting for Superman) and puts the argument in the context of that movie.

On this same line, I thought I saw a headline earlier today about how teacher unions are actually beneficial to education, but I lost it, and I couldn't find it via Google. Anyone else see/save that?

Bruce Leroy
Jun 10, 2010


Yoshifan823 posted:

I'm talking with some people on the internet about education, and someone asked about Charter Schools, and aside from laying out some basic points about why privatized education is a terrible idea, The Myth of Charter Schools is something I always cite, just because it's incredibly well laid out and takes something quite a few people have seen (Waiting for Superman) and puts the argument in the context of that movie.

On this same line, I thought I saw a headline earlier today about how teacher unions are actually beneficial to education, but I lost it, and I couldn't find it via Google. Anyone else see/save that?

poo poo, don't let Arkane know you mentioned that,

Seriouspost: That's my go-to article for talking to people about charter schools.

A Fancy 400 lbs
Jul 23, 2008


Yoshifan823 posted:

I'm talking with some people on the internet about education, and someone asked about Charter Schools, and aside from laying out some basic points about why privatized education is a terrible idea, The Myth of Charter Schools is something I always cite, just because it's incredibly well laid out and takes something quite a few people have seen (Waiting for Superman) and puts the argument in the context of that movie.

On this same line, I thought I saw a headline earlier today about how teacher unions are actually beneficial to education, but I lost it, and I couldn't find it via Google. Anyone else see/save that?

There's one on that subject in internaut's huge List O' Links back near the beginning of the page.

duck monster
Dec 15, 2004



ReidRansom posted:

Way back when we tried to make a wiki of this sort of thing in LF, but you know, LF, so that didn't work at all. This was kind of the idea though, a repository for all the informative kind of poo poo that gets posted but not everyone keeps up with. One stop argument shop.

I don't see the odds of a D&D wiki escaping a similar fate once outside the swing range of the mod banhammer. Goons and lurkers get kind of douchey once the threat of bans and probations disapear. We'd make a terrible anarchist community, alas.

Reene
Aug 26, 2005



A wiki with semi-restricted membership might work. At least that way the archival duties can be spread among several non-lovely posters.

ReindeerF
Apr 20, 2002

Rubber Dinghy Rapids Bro


I'd just set up a Quora/StackOverflow style deal and stick to questions and linked sources. Wikis are great, but a tiny summary and a source would be a great way to avoid the wiki problem of people arguing about phrasing and many people not wanting to learn how to edit a wiki or take the time to do it. There are a number of wordpress themes that are Q&A based, but maybe there's a specifically good app for this.

Douginc
Mar 25, 2009


pawsplay posted:

Matthrew 35:21-46

31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?' 40 And the king will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.' 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Seriously, thank you greatly for the exact quote. I cannot fathom how many voters believe that we need Biblical logic for our laws concerning homosexuality, which is merely one (maybe 2) mentions, yet completely ignore the many blatant socialist messages of altruism.

How in the hell can Conservapedia minds skew this passage? They somehow miraculously managed to contort "Rich into heaven is harder than camel through a needle's eye" into "The poor suck and are lazy".

TehSaurus
Jun 12, 2006


ReindeerF posted:

I'd just set up a Quora/StackOverflow style deal and stick to questions and linked sources. Wikis are great, but a tiny summary and a source would be a great way to avoid the wiki problem of people arguing about phrasing and many people not wanting to learn how to edit a wiki or take the time to do it. There are a number of wordpress themes that are Q&A based, but maybe there's a specifically good app for this.

This is a great idea but I'd be for a moderated wiki as well. If this thread ever reaches 100 pages as it would need to it would be a nightmare to find things in it.

evilweasel
Aug 24, 2002



ReidRansom posted:

Way back when we tried to make a wiki of this sort of thing in LF, but you know, LF, so that didn't work at all. This was kind of the idea though, a repository for all the informative kind of poo poo that gets posted but not everyone keeps up with. One stop argument shop.

A wiki is a bad idea because it's going to be nothing but trying to win the wiki. I.e. edit wars over "Israel is a modern Third Reich" vs "Israel is the lone democratic nation in a sea of monsters" and the like, or trying to fill it with "This position is wrong, see:" and the like.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!

Biscuit Hider


Not to bog this thread down in issue debates, but are people still talking about gun control? I thought the general consensus on this forum was that gun control was a red-herring issue that simply wasn't worth talking about, given the political cost & the fact that it's like the only civil rights issue the Republicans can still legitimately claim to be on the constitutional side of.

  • Locked thread
«151 »