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Laocius
Jul 6, 2013



I know someone who self-identifies as a Republican, but actually has generally liberal-to-progressive views, so talking to her can be really frustrating. I get the impression that she mostly just hates Democratic politicians and the liberal bourgeoisie in general, which I definitely relate to. She also used to work in the office of an incredibly corrupt former Democratic senator from our state, which clearly gave her a very negative impression of liberals and, by extension, progressives and the left.

So, basically I want to convince her that she isn't actually conservative, she just hates rich liberals and politicians, which is a good impulse. Is there anything I could send her (books, articles, documentaries, whatever) to explain the difference between lovely, elitist liberalism and actual progressive/left-wing politics?

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Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

THE HORROR
THE HORROR



Laocius posted:

I know someone who self-identifies as a Republican, but actually has generally liberal-to-progressive views, so talking to her can be really frustrating. I get the impression that she mostly just hates Democratic politicians and the liberal bourgeoisie in general, which I definitely relate to. She also used to work in the office of an incredibly corrupt former Democratic senator from our state, which clearly gave her a very negative impression of liberals and, by extension, progressives and the left.

So, basically I want to convince her that she isn't actually conservative, she just hates rich liberals and politicians, which is a good impulse. Is there anything I could send her (books, articles, documentaries, whatever) to explain the difference between lovely, elitist liberalism and actual progressive/left-wing politics?

Can you not just like, point at Trump and go "so you identify with that thing?"

Grognan
Jan 23, 2007

Money And Power Through Homicide!



Laocius posted:

I know someone who self-identifies as a Republican, but actually has generally liberal-to-progressive views, so talking to her can be really frustrating. I get the impression that she mostly just hates Democratic politicians and the liberal bourgeoisie in general, which I definitely relate to. She also used to work in the office of an incredibly corrupt former Democratic senator from our state, which clearly gave her a very negative impression of liberals and, by extension, progressives and the left.

So, basically I want to convince her that she isn't actually conservative, she just hates rich liberals and politicians, which is a good impulse. Is there anything I could send her (books, articles, documentaries, whatever) to explain the difference between lovely, elitist liberalism and actual progressive/left-wing politics?

I would recommend ignoring trump threads and reading the succ zone. You might find some decent info in there. When you can point out that Dem party establishment doesn't really even mesh with lefty or progressive ideals it might be easier to disassociate the party poo poo-bags from the ideas they are "championing".

SA rec's aside. I happened to get a copy of https://www.amazon.com/White-Trash-...a/dp/0143129678 that was some really good reading as a perspective on how the under-class that wasn't shipped in from the african continent was treated by pretty much any political figure or elite during the history of the USA and before.

like to fix england's class problems they actually just locked people up and sold them as indentured servants overseas like wtf, also some really strange proto-eugenical sentiments that persist to this day

Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

THE HORROR
THE HORROR



Grognan posted:

I would recommend ignoring trump threads and reading the succ zone. You might find some decent info in there. When you can point out that Dem party establishment doesn't really even mesh with lefty or progressive ideals it might be easier to disassociate the party poo poo-bags from the ideas they are "championing".

SA rec's aside. I happened to get a copy of https://www.amazon.com/White-Trash-...a/dp/0143129678 that was some really good reading as a perspective on how the under-class that wasn't shipped in from the african continent was treated by pretty much any political figure or elite during the history of the USA and before.

like to fix england's class problems they actually just locked people up and sold them as indentured servants overseas like wtf, also some really strange proto-eugenical sentiments that persist to this day

D&D favorite A People's History of the United States goes into that a lot too and is super fascinating if you haven't read it

Cingulate
Oct 23, 2012



Laocius posted:

I know someone who self-identifies as a Republican, but actually has generally liberal-to-progressive views, so talking to her can be really frustrating. I get the impression that she mostly just hates Democratic politicians and the liberal bourgeoisie in general, which I definitely relate to. She also used to work in the office of an incredibly corrupt former Democratic senator from our state, which clearly gave her a very negative impression of liberals and, by extension, progressives and the left.

So, basically I want to convince her that she isn't actually conservative, she just hates rich liberals and politicians, which is a good impulse. Is there anything I could send her (books, articles, documentaries, whatever) to explain the difference between lovely, elitist liberalism and actual progressive/left-wing politics?
How is the label actually important? Isn't it much more important to what extent she cares about climate change, a noninterventionist foreign policy and a robust social net?

Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

THE HORROR
THE HORROR



Cingulate posted:

How is the label actually important? Isn't it much more important to what extent she cares about climate change, a noninterventionist foreign policy and a robust social net?

Being American, regardless of what she actually believes she will almost certainly vote straight-R in elections because we generally vote against people rather than for ideas.

mojo1701a
Oct 8, 2008

Oh, yeah. Loud and clear. Emphasis on LOUD!
~ David Lee Roth

ate all the Oreos posted:

Being American, regardless of what she actually believes she will almost certainly vote straight-R in elections because we generally vote against people rather than for ideas.

This is exactly what I noticed. There's a sizable portion of people that, all else being equal, would completely identify with Democratic (or even actual left-wing) policies, but their brains get overridden by the "Republican" label.

pangstrom
Jan 25, 2003



Wedge Regret

ate all the Oreos posted:

we generally vote against people rather than for ideas.
This is a pretty good summary I think.

fishmech
Jul 16, 2006

~death to capitalism~
Upgrade your OS



Salad Prong

mojo1701a posted:

This is exactly what I noticed. There's a sizable portion of people that, all else being equal, would completely identify with Democratic (or even actual left-wing) policies, but their brains get overridden by the "Republican" label.

This is called "being racist and/or sexist". With a side order of some just plain stupid people. It's been deliberate republican strategy to use those attributes for 50 years now.

VitalSigns
Sep 3, 2011

Lowtax needs a new spine and my posts are poopy

Cingulate posted:

How is the label actually important? Isn't it much more important to what extent she cares about climate change, a noninterventionist foreign policy and a robust social net?

What's important is who she votes for. If she votes for Republicans because she identifies with them, then it doesn't matter what she personally believes about those things, she's enabling the opposite of her beliefs.

My bf's mom is the same way. Pro-choice, pro-women's rights, pro-LGBT, hates religion, is a public employee who complains that the (Republican) state government doesn't pay enough or provide good enough benefits. Votes straight ticket 'R' because the Democrats are 'anti-white'.

Cingulate
Oct 23, 2012



If you want to convince her to vote democrat, I'd try to convince her to vote democrat, not try to change her self identification. Maybe the path there comes through changing her self identification, but on the other hand, changing what might well be the core identity of a person is a rather daunting, and in this case not inherently necessary, task.

VitalSigns posted:

What's important is who she votes for. If she votes for Republicans because she identifies with them, then it doesn't matter what she personally believes about those things, she's enabling the opposite of her beliefs.

My bf's mom is the same way. Pro-choice, pro-women's rights, pro-LGBT, hates religion, is a public employee who complains that the (Republican) state government doesn't pay enough or provide good enough benefits. Votes straight ticket 'R' because the Democrats are 'anti-white'.
I'm not sure I will ever be able to say something meaningful about people who are pro-choice, pro-LGBT, pro-welfare and vote Republican though.

Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

THE HORROR
THE HORROR



Cingulate posted:

If you want to convince her to vote democrat, I'd try to convince her to vote democrat, not try to change her self identification. Maybe the path there comes through changing her self identification, but on the other hand, changing what might well be the core identity of a person is a rather daunting, and in this case not inherently necessary, task.

I don't know if directly convincing her to vote democrat would work at all since she sounds like she bases most of her identity around voting against who she considers to be the democratic party. Maybe just focus on a few local candidates that have good politics that she can get behind and don't even mention their party until she's already sold on them? At least then she'd have to confront "wait I like/agree with this person but they're the wrong party!" which is something

Cingulate posted:

I'm not sure I will ever be able to say something meaningful about people who are pro-choice, pro-LGBT, pro-welfare and vote Republican though.

I think fishmech already said it just fine:

fishmech posted:

This is called "being racist and/or sexist".

Cingulate
Oct 23, 2012



ate all the Oreos posted:

I don't know if directly convincing her to vote democrat would work
Directly, schmirectly, my point is, in a debate, it is probably helpful to consider what one actually aims to achieve.

ate all the Oreos posted:

I think fishmech already said it just fine:
This is I am quite sure a thoroughly unproductive line of inquiry.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


Cingulate posted:

This is I am quite sure a thoroughly unproductive line of inquiry.

I mean, if your complaint is that they're "anti white" it seems fairly clear about where your priorities lie.

Cingulate
Oct 23, 2012



OwlFancier posted:

I mean, if your complaint is that they're "anti white" it seems fairly clear about where your priorities lie.
You have identified the racist. How do you proceed with the debate/discussion?

fishmech
Jul 16, 2006

~death to capitalism~
Upgrade your OS



Salad Prong

Cingulate posted:

You have identified the racist. How do you proceed with the debate/discussion?

What's to debate or discuss though? You've identified the real problem, which is they care about something else a whole bunch more than all the issues they pay lip service to. Thus they're not actually interested in seeking, say, safer roads as an issue unless they can be sure that black guy over there won't benefit.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


Cingulate posted:

You have identified the racist. How do you proceed with the debate/discussion?



The wisdom is in knowing that the debate was never truly workable to begin with.

Cingulate
Oct 23, 2012



fishmech posted:

What's to debate or discuss though? You've identified the real problem, which is they care about something else a whole bunch more than all the issues they pay lip service to. Thus they're not actually interested in seeking, say, safer roads as an issue unless they can be sure that black guy over there won't benefit.
Do you want to change the world, or label it and feel smug about it?


OwlFancier posted:



The wisdom is in knowing that the debate was never truly workable to begin with.
I see it's option #2 for you.

fishmech
Jul 16, 2006

~death to capitalism~
Upgrade your OS



Salad Prong

Cingulate posted:

Do you want to change the world, or label it and feel smug about it?

I see it's option #2 for you.

Last I checked you got very mad at the solution that actually changes the world with that sort of person.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


"At least I'm trying!" slurs man smashing head into brick wall as bystanders suggest walking around it instead.

Tab8715
May 20, 2006

NOBODY WANTS TO HEAR YOUR NIGHTCORE GARBAGE, MORON

I got into argument earlier where I mentioned my primary disagreement with Trump was that he’s an authoritarian.

Now this is true but what caught me off guard was that it came back that Democrats are too authoritarians in the sense that bakers must bake cakes or gay weddings and industries follow a myriad of regulations. I came back with “This is true but Democrats believe that these people ought to be heard and are able to take their case to court. An authoritarian simply doesn’t allow the debate.”

I feel kind of confident with my response but it still seems a little hollow, thoughts?

Accretionist
Nov 7, 2012



In the broad strokes, authoritarian/egalitarian is about relative degree of preference for social stratification. I'm not sure how much I'd overlap that with basic Rule of Law.

Cingulate
Oct 23, 2012



Tab8715 posted:

I got into argument earlier where I mentioned my primary disagreement with Trump was that he’s an authoritarian.

Now this is true but what caught me off guard was that it came back that Democrats are too authoritarians in the sense that bakers must bake cakes or gay weddings and industries follow a myriad of regulations. I came back with “This is true but Democrats believe that these people ought to be heard and are able to take their case to court. An authoritarian simply doesn’t allow the debate.”

I feel kind of confident with my response but it still seems a little hollow, thoughts?
Everyone but anarchists - thus, also democrats - believe in more positive liberty than libertarians. So on some measures, democrats will be more authoritarian than republicans. There simply is no way around this.

Is it fair to call them authoritarian? Well, if you use the standards where Trump is a Nazi, then Democrats are authoritarians. If you use sane standards, not.

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Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

THE HORROR
THE HORROR



Yeah I think you're working with too nebulous an idea of "authoritarian" here, because your friend seems to think "rule of law" is authoritarian, when it's pretty much the polar opposite. Try to talk to them about what they think authoritarianism is, because it's not merely "has authority." I'd also check out the ol' goldmined authoritarian thread if I were you, since it goes into a lot of the weird psychology: https://forums.somethingawful.com/s...hreadid=3708238

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