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  • Locked thread
That Fucking Sned
Oct 28, 2010



Pesky Splinter posted:

  • Stinger and Million Stab (renamed "Trillion Stab" because obviously a Million isn't hip enough)

  • To launch enemies you only have to hit (B) (on the Xbox), previous DMCs required you to hit multiple buttons (and it was smoother that way).
Taking out the lock-on button is going to change the feel of the game. It allowed you to elegantly perform a combo without having to worry about the direction of your attacks, and even used the targeting reticule to show you how much health the enemy has left. How are you supposed to fling an enemy up in the air and then keep them afloat with bullets when the guns refuse to lock on to the same enemy you're fighting?

Pesky Splinter posted:

  • Pausing at certain points when the blade flashes will allow for a different combo
I'm somewhat relieved. Timing-based combos are back, which was one of the key elements lacking from DMC2.

Pesky Splinter posted:

  • Angel/Demon pull thing is integral to combat.
Can it just be used to pull enemies towards you, or can it be used as an attack as well? Right now it looks like Nero's devil arm only a fraction as useful.

Pesky Splinter posted:

  • "Why two dodge buttons?"

  • "Well, I think if you're holding the angel or demon power, it's difficult to hit the opposite button to evade. It makes it so you can dodge comfortably, not matter what weapon you're using"
To be fair, I would have preferred if Bayonetta had the option to set dodge to the left trigger, so that I could lock on with the right bumper more easily. Is this because you have to hold the trigger to keep that form?

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Crowetron
Apr 29, 2009



Schubalts posted:

Could you guys go over Ninja Gaiden 3 again? All I remember about it are weapons, and Ryu lamenting killing while killing thousands of dudes.

Can you press the X button? Congrats, you just learned all your moves!

bloodysabbath
May 1, 2004

OH NO!


Sindai posted:

Anyone who seriously believes a publisher would intentionally waste millions of dollars on a game meant to fail is a crazy person.

Why? Publishers do this all the time, in a way. A developer gets money to make a game, then the second focus groups/bean counters determine that the product is unlikely to pull down Call of Duty numbers, advertising gets scrapped and it fails. It's pretty much why Raven Software is stuck making CoD maps at this point.

Operation Raccoon City, one of the most lifeless, generic, half-assed shooters of this generation, sold over 2 million copies. Don't kid yourself - Capcom would be more than happy to do nothing but Resident Evil, Street Fighter, and maybe MvC forever.

quote:

They also don't seem to pay attention to company track records, I mean the company making Lost Planet 3, are responsible for Legendary the box and Turning Point Fall of Liberty, 2 of the absolute worst games of the past years.

You just made my interest level in LP3 go from "cautious rental" to "gently caress that poo poo with extreme prejudice."

I mean, I know even Rocksteady pulled a winner out of its rear end after Urban Chaos, but goddrat.

quote:

Could you guys go over Ninja Gaiden 3 again? All I remember about it are weapons, and Ryu lamenting killing while killing thousands of dudes.

Ninja Gaiden 3 is what happens when the dumbing down of video games so your mom, sister, and senile grandmother can play them reaches its logical conclusion. Everything about it is unpolished, and the mechanics really do boil down to "hit the attack button to swing your one sword and then hit the magic button every now and again to do your one spell."

It is a Ninja Gaiden game in name only. Since this is a DMC thread, remember how bad everyone thought DMC 2 was? Ninja Gaiden 3 is like DMC 2 if DMC 2 took a poo poo on your carpet after you ejected it, declared itself the future of games, and immediately went to slash your tires and key your car.

It's also what happens when you try to shoehorn games-is-sociology-now bullshit into what should be an awesome, badass killfest. E3 has shown just how hip it is to hate on any game that tries to make you feel cool while killing poo poo, but if you had told me that Ryu Hayabusa would have started pondering the morality of kicking faces and slashing torsos, I would have told you to lay off the sauce.

bloodysabbath fucked around with this message at Jun 7, 2012 around 21:55

Barudak
May 7, 2007



Schubalts posted:

Could you guys go over Ninja Gaiden 3 again? All I remember about it are weapons, and Ryu lamenting killing while killing thousands of dudes.

Y always ends a combo so all combos are X however many times then Y, no rhythm or speed or holding or any other variation. Not that pressing Y really matters because its not like its a stronger or brutal attack, it just happens to have the property that makes shield enemies drop shields. Which is also irrelevant because you can just run around them or whatever and their not super common as enemies anyway.

There is only 1 weapon. It is a sword. It is about as uninteresting as a sword can be. Other weapons exist, they're just DLC. Even more damning the game teases you with the music and posters of the character in the previous games who sold you stuff and upgraded equipment but none of that exists in the game.

Enemies are mindboggingly stupid and hapless. On top of that they beg for you not to kill them but you have to kill them or they just kinda drag themselves around forever and you can't progress. There is no dismemberment so enemies feel like big sacks of blood that occasionally squeeze out sounds about wanting to live.

Magic kills all enemies on screen and fully heals you. There is no strategy behind using it since you build it over time and if you have any at the end of a fight it all dissapears to heal you.

Constantly in the game you have to laboriously climb straight vertical structures by slowly alternating the trigger buttons. There are climbs of 30 seconds where not a drat thing happens.

Bosses have no healthbars. Good luck figuring out if you're hurting them or not!

Pesky Splinter
Feb 16, 2011

A worried pug.


That loving Sned posted:

Can it just be used to pull enemies towards you, or can it be used as an attack as well? Right now it looks like Nero's devil arm only a fraction as useful.

To be fair, I would have preferred if Bayonetta had the option to set dodge to the left trigger, so that I could lock on with the right bumper more easily. Is this because you have to hold the trigger to keep that form?

Double tapping the chain in either mode makes Dante do either a punch (angel) or kick (demon), but I'm guessing it lacks versatility that the Devil Bringer had. Really it serves only to push/pull enemies towards or away from Dante, the only real use is to spam the aerial thing for devil trigger.

To activate the demon/angel mode, the trigger has to be held down, or Dante will just use standard Rebellion moves. That's why it sounds clunky having to hold down various buttons just to do what amounts to a weapon switch, or a light or heavy attack. And you have to let go of both to use the guns.

Compare that to the other DMC where Dante has access to the guns at all times, and can switch weapons, mid-combo with just a button press.

bloodysabbath posted:

It's also what happens when you try to shoehorn games-is-sociology-now bullshit into what should be an awesome, badass killfest. E3 has shown just how hip it is to hate on any game that tries to make you feel cool while killing poo poo, but if you had told me that Ryu Hayabusa would have started pondering the morality of kicking faces and slashing torsos, I would have told you to lay off the sauce.

It's like learning that DMC - that series of goofy, not-serious, campy action games - is suddenly being used as social commentary and wants to be taken seriously with its story. To the point where the narrative is the biggest focal point for the developers.

Pesky Splinter fucked around with this message at Jun 7, 2012 around 22:30

Schubalts
Nov 25, 2007

People say bigger is better.

But for the first time in my life, I think I've gone too far.


It just keeps getting better, doesn't it?


drat, that's uh, that's some bad design right there. Did they ever say why they took that many steps backward from Ninja Gaiden 2?

Shindragon
Jun 6, 2011

You don't want my life. What do I have to show for it? Chozo DNA in my body, Metroid Prime blood on my hands, and a foot locker full of Ridleys.


Schubalts posted:

It just keeps getting better, doesn't it?


drat, that's uh, that's some bad design right there. Did they ever say why they took that many steps backward from Ninja Gaiden 2?

Because the main man is gone. It maybe hyperbolic, but I think Itagaki was the one who kept that team from doing stupid mistakes. I mean look at what happened when he left, Other M and then THIS.

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010


Isn't Other M more Sakamoto's fault than Team Ninja's? I mean, I know that they hosed with NG3 to a ridiculous extent but I wouldn't really blame Other M on them since Sakamoto is kind of te one who messes with things. Anyways, this is besides the point, I wonder why Capcom seriously thought DMC was the title to outsource? I'd like to believe that when you outsource something, you do it for the sake of increasing poor numbers to good numbers instead of trying great to phenomenal numbers.

Pesky Splinter
Feb 16, 2011

A worried pug.


^^^
[e]: From my understanding of some articles posted in the LP thread, everything was run by him first for his approval. So yes, he is to blame. TN were just doing what he was telling them to do.

Shindragon posted:

Because the main man is gone. It maybe hyperbolic, but I think Itagaki was the one who kept that team from doing stupid mistakes. I mean look at what happened when he left, Other M and then THIS.

Reading interviews with Sakamoto, the director and writer of Other M, is hilarious, because the guy doesn't seem to understand why the story fails so badly, and on so many levels. And that's not even covering the sexism.

You don't even have to have play a previous Metroid game (like me) to see that something is glaringly wrong with the narrative.

As for NG3, I haven't had the "privilege" to play it, but even looking at peoples' reactions here, and this section from Wikipedia is telling.

quote:

"Ryu is unmasking himself, and it's a way of attracting people to his world. We are trying to have people enter the real Ryu Hayabusa. The amount of blood doesn't revolve around the idea of killing people, either; it could also be Ryu's blood. We're focusing not only on cutting people but also Ryu himself."

The development team did not include an ability to dismember limbs, which was a key graphical element of the previous modern games. A Team Ninja staff member stated that "people do not want to see that anymore" and so they had removed it from the game.

Is history repeating itself but with a different team of Ninjas?

I mean, we've had the whole "Dante's look is just so uncool nowdays" and the laughable attempts we've seen at humanizing him, and the we hear about the lack of a taunt because of the "narrative disconnect", yet he still acts like a more prickish version of Dante and has the same attitude.

And they've tried to make the gameplay more accessable so the more causal audience won't be scared off, but they still want to make it technical enough for the regular crowd. Likewise, they want to have the story taken seriously, but still have Dante act cocky and arrogant and fill it with campy humour.

They can't have their cake and eat it too.

Pesky Splinter fucked around with this message at Jun 7, 2012 around 22:38

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


Monkey Fracas posted:

You know, when you think about the development history of Ninja Theory this is hardly a surprise.

2003- Kung Fu Chaos --> A lovely "party" game for XBox.

I know that this was a few pages ago but if you actually played the game, you would have discovered that it was a decent party-style brawler. A Powerstone Lite, if you will, with a handful of minigames and some really cool "evolving" levels that transformed into other venues as you played them.

FedEx Mercury
Jan 7, 2004

Me bad posting? That's unpossible!


Lipstick Apathy

That loving Sned posted:



To be fair, I would have preferred if Bayonetta had the option to set dodge to the left trigger, so that I could lock on with the right bumper more easily. Is this because you have to hold the trigger to keep that form?

Ah but in Bayonetta, if you're locked on, you can simply press the jump button to dodge. Problem solved without using two buttons for the same drat thing.

Shindragon
Jun 6, 2011

You don't want my life. What do I have to show for it? Chozo DNA in my body, Metroid Prime blood on my hands, and a foot locker full of Ridleys.


I'm really starting to get worried. Perhaps it's a bit too early but I"m not liking this whole emphasis on humanize crap in these action games. First Ninja Gaiden, now DMC? Get your humanize crap out of my drat cheesy action games. Not everything has to be loving hollywood.

Sigh, guess I can look forward to Revegenance. Doubt there will be a Bayonetta 2. I was a naysayer from the beginning, but christ I hate being right.

Pesky Splinter
Feb 16, 2011

A worried pug.


Yet another interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...d&v=lgKiMauqZzU

Summation:

"Capcom wanted Ninja Theory for their aesthetics, the narrative, all the things that Ninja Theory is amazing at and it was clear by Heavenly Sword and Enslaved that they had a talent for melee combat games"

That is the biggest crock I've heard today, and they've said some poo poo in the last few days.

* The estimated time for game completion is about 10 hours, dependent of skill.

* The IGN guy is rather confused by what's happening in the game, and still fellates DmC.

* More transparent scoring mechanics. To try to get more casual players into it. Apparently.

[e]:

Reuben Langdon:

"Just played DMC, pretty Dope!"


[e2]: Oh, and SSS is SSSensational!

Pesky Splinter fucked around with this message at Jun 8, 2012 around 00:26

Crowetron
Apr 29, 2009



Pesky Splinter posted:

it was clear by Heavenly Sword and Enslaved that they had a talent for melee combat games"

AhahahHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Shindragon
Jun 6, 2011

You don't want my life. What do I have to show for it? Chozo DNA in my body, Metroid Prime blood on my hands, and a foot locker full of Ridleys.


...

Did they really just say that? HOW could you come to that conclusion at all? CRYING out loud they couldn't emulate a goddamn god of war copy and somehow they are good at melee?


What the hell Capcom.

NieR Occomata
Jan 18, 2009


Am I the only one extremely pissed off about the renamed grades? That's a loving standby. Why the hell would you change that, it's so needless.

Plus the reworked names are the most bullshit lovely poo poo ever. It's the most juvenile, high school Rage-Against-The-Machine swill I've seen, and if I play this game (I won't, because NT suck and they suck at making video games), I'll be enraged every time I see one of their stupid grades pop up on the upper left corner of the screen.

gently caress Ninja Theory. Those loving hacks.

Crowetron
Apr 29, 2009



On the upside, watching these PR dudes scramble around is already way more fun than DMC2.

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007

a negative influence


There is just no way the game can be even a tenth as entertaining as its development cycle at this point.

It's like how the rage festival over ME3's ending almost made up for the disappointment of the ending itself.

Shindragon
Jun 6, 2011

You don't want my life. What do I have to show for it? Chozo DNA in my body, Metroid Prime blood on my hands, and a foot locker full of Ridleys.


I"m looking at it, and I still question. Why no lock? Yeah a big boss like the one they are showing, it's not a problem. What about the individual enemies, are they really going to force me to auto lock in a action game when half the time auto lock on is horrible?!

Like why? I mean the art style looks decent, yet they completely gently caress it up.

Pesky Splinter
Feb 16, 2011

A worried pug.


^^^
[e]: At one point in one of the videos, the guy was getting shot by the Cherub things, but was facing the chainsaw things and had to run towards them awkardly to target them. With a regular lock on, it wouldn't be so difficult.

Crowetron posted:

On the upside, watching these PR dudes scramble around is already way more fun than DMC2.

The PR dudes are really to blame for the awful initial reception this game had.
Remember the first trailer? "My name....is Dante!"

Talk about starting off on the wrong foot, and setting off the wrong image.

And then sticking their feet in their mouths with half the other comments they made in regards to Classic Dante's look, comparing this game to Bayonetta (or at least aspiring to that level), focus on the god-forsaken story that never has ever really cared for in a DMC, the whole 30fps fiasco...it just keeps on and on.

It's like they set out with the intent to make people want to hate this game.

Pesky Splinter fucked around with this message at Jun 8, 2012 around 00:38

Shindragon
Jun 6, 2011

You don't want my life. What do I have to show for it? Chozo DNA in my body, Metroid Prime blood on my hands, and a foot locker full of Ridleys.


Seriously, I mean it's the internet. People will judge the poo poo out of you with every little thing you say. I do understand some of the backlash was not fair, but they just kept adding fuel to the fire by saying those things you quoted. I mean this had the potential to be at least good, but right now it looks like they are walking into a rabid tiger pit the direction this is going.

Pesky Splinter
Feb 16, 2011

A worried pug.


Shindragon posted:

Seriously, I mean it's the internet. People will judge the poo poo out of you with every little thing you say. I do understand some of the backlash was not fair, but they just kept adding fuel to the fire by saying those things you quoted. I mean this had the potential to be at least good, but right now it looks like they are walking into a rabid tiger pit the direction this is going.

I just think that they really have no clue.

They have no clue on what people play the games for, and what they want from the games - instead, they're imposing stuff on the game that is just plain crazy.

I never wanted to end up disliking this game. I'd much rather be posting about how much I'm looking forward to it.

But every single thing outside of maybe the visuals just...well it's a pretty trainwreck. And the people on the trainwreck are saying "What trainwreck? What are you talking about? There's no trainwreck - this is a bold new direction for trains!", while all while the train has derailed.

bloodysabbath
May 1, 2004

OH NO!


Shindragon posted:

Because the main man is gone. It maybe hyperbolic, but I think Itagaki was the one who kept that team from doing stupid mistakes. I mean look at what happened when he left, Other M and then THIS.

Itagaki might not have "solved" the so-called "problem" of Tecmo games having well endowed female characters, but the difference is that Itagaki is basically the Ronnie James Dio of game design and, for all his rockstar diva bullshit and mental patient ramblings and fixation on tits, the man does not disappoint, ever.

The fact that Devil's Third may never come out because THQ made a few really awful, casual-oriented business decisions is an affront to God.

The core vs. casual divide thing might be a bit overplayed sometimes, but for at least one company, a flopped bid at "casual" players and "brand expansion*" is literally preventing us from playing the next Itagaki masterpiece.

* How could anyone smart enough to rise to upper management at THQ seriously believe that Red Faction is a universe that could have become some sort of cross-medium sci-fi staple? Nobody gave half a poo poo about the story in those games.

Shindragon
Jun 6, 2011

You don't want my life. What do I have to show for it? Chozo DNA in my body, Metroid Prime blood on my hands, and a foot locker full of Ridleys.


bloodysabbath posted:

Itagaki might not have "solved" the so-called "problem" of Tecmo games having well endowed female characters, but the difference is that Itagaki is basically the Ronnie James Dio of game design and, for all his rockstar diva bullshit and mental patient ramblings and fixation on tits, the man does not disappoint, ever.

The fact that Devil's Third may never come out because THQ made a few really awful, casual-oriented business decisions is an affront to God.

The core vs. casual divide thing might be a bit overplayed sometimes, but for at least one company, a flopped bid at "casual" players and "brand expansion*" is literally preventing us from playing the next Itagaki masterpiece.

* How could anyone smart enough to rise to upper management at THQ seriously believe that Red Faction is a universe that could have become some sort of cross-medium sci-fi staple? Nobody gave half a poo poo about the story in those games.

OH definitely, I cringed at what Itagaki made in portraying women, but the dude knew how to make games challenging. As you said, he's a goddamn diva but GODDAMN does he know how to back up his talk.

All you can do is applaud the man.

I still miss him. . NG3 is basically the product of what happens when you cut the main guy off, they have a lot of influence on what they do. Just like how dMc isn't done by one of the guys. Sure it does have some influence by the DMC4 guys but how come none of them went HEY keep lock on stupid. I get that they wanted to do something different, but at least keep the core around. A game can still be different in the mechanics that made the game fun and great were around.

Precambrian
Apr 30, 2008



I still hold out some hope that the street art influences might be something worthwhile. Appropriating religious holy war might be a good decision for the Occupy v. Hegemony narrative they're trying to create, but everything so far looks terribly narcissistic. That early art of Dante with the half naked angels and the phallic pistol was the first warning, but Dante in the last trailer puts an incredibly self-focused twist to the character. Dante asserts that he's "Dante the Demon Killer"- giving himself his own title- and awkwardly establishing his character as something opposed to the Anonymous stand-in. The masked man emphasizes that we have a weapon, while Dante is all about the me. It's the sort of anarchy and rebellion marketed to suburbanites, rather than DMC's aesthetic of "cool" being cheap pizza, dimly lit pool tables, and beat-up trenchcoats.

I wouldn't have posted, but one of the devs from E3 talked about how this Dante is less "clean". That's a great misunderstanding of what made Dante's character work. New Dante is incredibly clean- he's a manufactured image of disaffected cool, while Classic Dante manufactures an image of disaffected cool. DMC 1 introduces Dante as a too-cool-for-school badass who doesn't care that someone crashed in with a motorcycle or he got stabbed by a talking sword. But as the game goes on, the influence of family comes through Nelo Angelo, and Dante begins to emotionally engage with the story. The climax is, of course, "FILL YOUR DARK SOUL WITH LIIIIIIIIGHT"- ridiculously poor voice acting, but effective, even necessary. Dante broke his "cool" by giving an awkward, embarrassing, decidedly not "clean" line. He doesn't get bloodied or messed up the way, say, Max Payne is, but for a character in a narrative where cool rules the day, awkward sincerity is proof of his development, struggle, and character. All this from a PS2 game made in 2001, that started as a Resident Evil title. People love classic Dante because of, or for, all the goofiness, cheese, and snark, it's a subtly and remarkably good narrative.

I could write a lot more about Dante, but I think I've rambled enough. If anything, I hope this new DMC helps people appreciate the three good DMCs more. Not only are they fun and challenging games, but they're also great narratives within their artistic, technical, and financial limitations. They prove that a strong narrative and a good aesthetic doesn't need the postured, pseudo-intellectual depth that I'm seeing in the trailer.

Precambrian fucked around with this message at Jun 8, 2012 around 03:30

Tupperwarez
Apr 4, 2004

"phphphphphphpht"? this is what you're going with?

you sure?


Precambrian posted:

but everything so far looks terribly narcissistic.
I think this is what's been grating on me the most while reading about DmC. This new DMC is throwing a party with the express purpose of letting all the guests know how cool it is. Everybody has to shut up and listen to its stories and check out its wicked rad dance moves (ie, crumping).

The old DMC's design, to me at least, was about throwing a party with the express purpose of GETTIN' CRAZAY!!! The host would teach you a couple of dance moves, and then after that you could do whatever on the dance floor. If you wanted to sway back and forth in a corner, no problem. If you wanted to get buck wild, that's cool too.

Precambrian posted:

Dante broke his "cool" by giving an awkward, embarrassing, decidedly not "clean" line. He doesn't get bloodied or messed up the way, say, Max Payne is, but for a character in a narrative where cool rules the day, awkward sincerity is proof of his development, struggle, and character.
That's kind of an interesting reading. Sorta like saying "Look man, even a hardcore motherfucker like John Matrix would cry at his mother's funeral." It humanizes him by allowing him to act 'real'.

Uncle Wemus
Mar 4, 2004


At least God of War is still keeping it real, right?

FedEx Mercury
Jan 7, 2004

Me bad posting? That's unpossible!


Lipstick Apathy

Occupation posted:

Am I the only one extremely pissed off about the renamed grades? That's a loving standby. Why the hell would you change that, it's so needless.

Hey just FYI they are different in every game. The only thing they keep constant is going from D to S (and SS and SSS in the sequels)

SkeletonHero
Sep 7, 2010

Skeleton War 2020


notZaar posted:

Hey just FYI they are different in every game. The only thing they keep constant is going from D to S (and SS and SSS in the sequels)

Yeah, they've never been constant, except I think S has always stood for "Stylish!"

toasterwarrior
Nov 11, 2011


Ximum posted:

Yeah, they've never been constant, except I think S has always stood for "Stylish!"

If you ain't got Stylish, you ain't got style

wildzero
Apr 23, 2008

"My name is Dante."
"Fuck you say?"



Precambrian posted:

It's the sort of anarchy and rebellion marketed to suburbanites, rather than DMC's aesthetic of "cool" being cheap pizza, dimly lit pool tables, and beat-up trenchcoats.

Oh my god. Nail on the head. I think this pretty much sums it up for me.

Uncle Wemus posted:

At least God of War is still keeping it real, right?

I don't dislike GoW, but how much has it changed between games? I've only played a little of each and didn't notice much difference between each entry.

wildzero fucked around with this message at Jun 8, 2012 around 09:54

SirDan3k
Jan 6, 2001

Trust me, you are taking this a lot more seriously then I am.


For me casual has come to mean "Easy to make" much more then "easy to play". Bayonetta has a difficulty you can literally beat with one hand tied behind your back but it's regular difficulty is near perfectly balanced.

Achieving that kind of balance takes time, it takes playing and replaying, it takes bringing in fresh eyes and it takes money.

toasterwarrior
Nov 11, 2011


SirDan3k posted:

For me casual has come to mean "Easy to make" much more then "easy to play". Bayonetta has a difficulty you can literally beat with one hand tied behind your back but it's regular difficulty is near perfectly balanced.

Achieving that kind of balance takes time, it takes playing and replaying, it takes bringing in fresh eyes and it takes money.

This is a great definition of "casual". I once thought CoD was for "hardcore" gamers until I realized that shooting virtual terrorists was a surprisingly widespread interest.

wildzero posted:

I don't dislike GoW, but how much has it changed between games? I've only played a little of each and didn't notice much difference between each entry.

I don't really like GoW as a beat-em-up, but at least it stayed honest to itself as an over-the-top, testosterone-overdrive, truly epic action game. It took three games for them to portray Kratos in a sympathetic light, but they've constantly upped the ante when it came to just how many dudes you can kill with a button press, how big a monster you can fight, and how violent fatalities can be.

So yeah, GoW keeps it real, and I can respect that.

Pesky Splinter
Feb 16, 2011

A worried pug.


Precambrian posted:

I wouldn't have posted, but one of the devs from E3 talked about how this Dante is less "clean". That's a great misunderstanding of what made Dante's character work. New Dante is incredibly clean- he's a manufactured image of disaffected cool, while Classic Dante manufactures an image of disaffected cool. DMC 1 introduces Dante as a too-cool-for-school badass who doesn't care that someone crashed in with a motorcycle or he got stabbed by a talking sword. But as the game goes on, the influence of family comes through Nelo Angelo, and Dante begins to emotionally engage with the story. The climax is, of course, "FILL YOUR DARK SOUL WITH LIIIIIIIIGHT"- ridiculously poor voice acting, but effective, even necessary. Dante broke his "cool" by giving an awkward, embarrassing, decidedly not "clean" line. He doesn't get bloodied or messed up the way, say, Max Payne is, but for a character in a narrative where cool rules the day, awkward sincerity is proof of his development, struggle, and character. All this from a PS2 game made in 2001, that started as a Resident Evil title. People love classic Dante because of, or for, all the goofiness, cheese, and snark, it's a subtly and remarkably good narrative.

To add into that, there's that scene just after he defeats Nero Angelo for the last time, where he just thinks back to his and Vergil's birthday where they argued over cake. Not only does it serve to tell the audience that the honourable foe they've been fighting throughout the game is Vergil, Dante's missing brother, but that adds a touch of depth to Dante's character.

Likewise, their relationship in DMC3. The way it never really talks about their exact history, just gives hints here and there. And then Dante still trying to reach out for his brother as he falls into the Demon World, and then silently crying over his loss.

At no point does the game say things like "Vergil and Dante were raised in an abusive orphanage and tortured by the demons running it and this helped colour their views on-", because it doesn't serve the very simple story. And at no point also did the games or developers go out of their way to say that they're humanizing Dante, by trying to tack on forced pathos.

Precambrian posted:

I could write a lot more about Dante

Please do, what you've written thus far is very interesting.

BlackFrost
Feb 6, 2008

Have you figured it out yet?


Pesky Splinter posted:

Likewise, their relationship in DMC3. The way it never really talks about their exact history, just gives hints here and there. And then Dante still trying to reach out for his brother as he falls into the Demon World, and then silently crying over his loss.

At no point does the game say things like "Vergil and Dante were raised in an abusive orphanage and tortured by the demons running it and this helped colour their views on-", because it doesn't serve the very simple story. And at no point also did the games or developers go out of their way to say that they're humanizing Dante, by trying to tack on forced pathos.

Yeah, I was going to go off on this point as well. I really like DMC3's ending solely because the way Dante just completely drops his usual goofy demeanor both before and especially after the final Vergil fight was a really nice touch. Dante's over-the-top hamming honestly adds more to his character, because whenever it's gone we know he's being genuine. It's showing us that Dante is hurt over the loss of his brother, despite everything he put him through, not telling us.

Ninja Theory have been reassuring us that Dante is going to be humanized and "clean," when they should be showing us these things (and what they've shown so far certainly hasn't done a good job of that), and really that's the main issue I have with the new game so far.

Story was never DMC's strongest suit, but the story that was there usually did the job properly. Well, as long as you continue to pretend DMC2 doesn't exist.

Pesky Splinter posted:

Please do, what you've written thus far is very interesting.

Yeah, agreed; this is the Devil May Cry thread, so go nuts. If nothing else, it'd be nice to shift discussion away from "Let's whine about the upcoming reboot" for a little.

Pesky Splinter
Feb 16, 2011

A worried pug.


BlackFrost posted:

Story was never DMC's strongest suit, but the story that was there usually did the job properly. Well, as long as you continue to pretend DMC2 doesn't exist.

To be honest though, even DMC2 story has good elements to it, or at least, has the potential for a good story. The issue is that it's so disjointed and things aren't explained well or developed.

Like that Bolverk boss. Interesting design and backstory (when reading the files), but nothing is made of the ingame. He doesn't even speak. He just turns up, is killed by Dante, and that's it.

But that of course, is not the least of DMC2's story or gameplay problems...

Uncle Wemus
Mar 4, 2004


wildzero posted:

I don't dislike GoW, but how much has it changed between games? I've only played a little of each and didn't notice much difference between each entry.

As it went on they seemed to add a bit more flashy moves and a better counter system.

To me Bayonettas pretty close to the top for what an action game should be in terms of moves, controls, and abilities.

Rigged Death Trap
Feb 13, 2012

BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP



BlackFrost posted:

Yeah, I was going to go off on this point as well. I really like DMC3's ending solely because the way Dante just completely drops his usual goofy demeanor both before and especially after the final Vergil fight was a really nice touch. Dante's over-the-top hamming honestly adds more to his character, because whenever it's gone we know he's being genuine. It's showing us that Dante is hurt over the loss of his brother, despite everything he put him through, not telling us.

Ninja Theory have been reassuring us that Dante is going to be humanized and "clean," when they should be showing us these things (and what they've shown so far certainly hasn't done a good job of that), and really that's the main issue I have with the new game so far.

Story was never DMC's strongest suit, but the story that was there usually did the job properly. Well, as long as you continue to pretend DMC2 doesn't exist.


Yeah, agreed; this is the Devil May Cry thread, so go nuts. If nothing else, it'd be nice to shift discussion away from "Let's whine about the upcoming reboot" for a little.

It's why I love Dante as a character. His emotions, even though shallow, are consistent and believable.

Pesky Splinter
Feb 16, 2011

A worried pug.


A minor thing, this was uploaded to the DMC.org forums in April of this year. I didn't post it then, because it was unverifiable, but apparently, a playtester for DmC posted a brief synopsis on 4chan.

At the time it was posted, only the bug-boss's appearance had been shown, not the actual battle, which s/he accurately describes, and a level taking place in a weird nightclub, so here's the playtester's account.

Stuff in italics is unconfirmed.

quote:

Overall the game is a lot more fluid since I last played it. It feels pretty floaty, and it doesn't really feel like Devil May Cry, but it wasn't too terrible. The combat seemed pretty simplistic, but at the very least, chaining attacks from different modes (angel, devil and human) works a lot better than it did before. The two grappling attacks can be abused pretty heavily, the angel one pulls you to an enemy and the devil one pulls them to you. It could have just been for the playtest, but enemy AI seemed really awful. They just sort of waddled towards your general direction, and were incredibly easy to avoid.

Alright, for story and whatnot, the first section we tested had to do with a “Hunter” demon bringing Dante into limbo. It served mostly as a quick tutorial. Something I found a bit annoying was a scene where a white wig or something hair-like blows in the wind onto Dante’s head and he looks into a mirror and remarks, “Not in a million years.” All of this took place on a pier / carnival, and in the real world it things being destroyed was considered the act of terrorists, or so we’re lead to believe.

The second section was a city section. I’ve seen this area in trailers, and I’ve also played it before. It has changed quite a bit since I played it about a year ago. Throughout the level you’re following Kat (I think that was her name). She is a psychic and can see things happening in limbo while in the real world. She mentions that Vergil taught her how to use magic and that he said she was a natural. She uses a spray paint can to “cast” a spell. She mentions that she prepares them in advance in these cans, or something like that. The police in the real world spot her using the spray paint on something, so she runs off and you start the platforming segment. Eventually you make your way to a church to fight a mini-boss of sorts, and after a world-morphing sequence where you use your angel glide to traverse, you break through a window and meet back up with Kat. It seemed mostly like a tutorial for using the grappling attacks in the environment to move platforms, and angel glide (a sort of triple jump that glides you forward) to get onto them.

The third section was a boss fight. I don’t recall if the boss’ name was given or not, but the whole thing was largely unfinished, and it was very obvious. The boss was this ugly larvae-looking thing with a face. It was dangling by some wires or something, handing onto a platform with its four arms. It knew Dante was the son of Sparda and Eva, and it was swearing constantly. The fight was pretty simple. Whack at its hands, and dodge its attacks. After you damage the hands enough you jump around and use your angel grapple attack to swing to other platforms and then use the devil grapple to pull sections of the wires out. After doing this twice it drops down below into some yellow liquid where you whack at its hands some more and it eventually gets cut up by a large fan. It mentions that Mundus, and how it is still useful to Mundus, or something of that sort. At the end of this section we see a cut scene that takes place somewhere else. A fat man with a symbol on his head (who is presumably Mundus) is loving a woman who is in a skin-tight suit, named Lilith. He mentions how his succubus was killed. I’m assuming the larvae boss was his succubus, but it was not clarified.

The fourth section starts with a cut scene. We see Vergil for the first time. He is wearing a black coat, and really looks nothing like Vergil from the other games. To be expected. Mundus has taken Kat and is holding her hostage for the Neraphim, if I recall correctly. Vergil is surprised by this. According the Vergil, Mundus is in the dark because he does not know that Dante is his brother or that Vergil himself is the Neraphim. He mentions how it is too risky to have Dante rush in there and save Kat. Dante mentions how he knows that Lilith is carrying Mundus’ child because some other demon told him about it. The level itself takes place in a night club, Lilith’s night club. I didn’t get to finish this level, but the world morphing turned it into a gauntlet of demons.

And that is about it. If you've got questions, I will try to answer them the best I can. Feel free to not believe me, but if you've been around on /v/ and heard me talk about testing these games before, nearly a year ago, all of the things I said about it then have since come into light (such as angel and devil mode).

He also gave the correct control scheme, which, until E3, wasn't known:

quote:

You can dodge in any direction on both the ground and air by default. This my be an ability you have to purchase at some point in the game. We could also double jump by default.

Which reminds me, I can post the game's control scheme

Y / Triangle = Attack
B / Circle = Launcher attack
A / Cross = Jump
X / Square = Grappling attacks in angel and devil mode
[X / Square is also for shooting ebony and ivory, when not using angel or devil mode.]
R1 or L1 = Evade
Holding R2 = Devil Mode
Holding L2 = Angel Mode
R3 + L3 = Devil Trigger
DPad = I believe these were used for weapon swapping, which we didn't have access to. We only had Rebellion, Ebony and Ivory, Devil mode and Angel mode. (I vaguely remember some people saying there were some sort of issues with cannon if he had ebony and ivory, but he does call his guns that).

Devil Trigger is used for some platforming things. Typing it out reminded me that on the fourth section, in the gauntlet area, there was a large gap with platforms spinning very quickly. Using Devil Trigger slows them down and allows you to use the angel mode grapple to move onto, and past them.

We had a cheat-sheet of sorts that listed the controls, and there was no lock-on. I suppose that could change in the future, since the game is still in development.

Remains to be seen if the rest of what he reports is true. I hope not, the last thing I want to see if Mundus loving something. Or the wig thing.

Source: http://devilmaycry.org/community/th...the-game.10604/

Pesky Splinter fucked around with this message at Jun 9, 2012 around 11:39

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FedEx Mercury
Jan 7, 2004

Me bad posting? That's unpossible!


Lipstick Apathy

All that stuff is probably under a NDA. He should not have posted it. I wonder if Vergil will actually be in the game or if he's making that stuff up. I mean the plot points he posted sound retarded, but they also sound completely in the realm of reason at this point.

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