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Pesky Splinter
Feb 16, 2011

A worried pug.


You should try using Osiris' prop shredder for parrying the boss - it seems to have an absurdly large window for parrying. It's also possible to slightly sequence break by abusing the aerial combat to land on the ledge needed to target the cameras. Speaking of going outside the levels, some dude managed to get past that skull graffiti wall (you know, the one before the demon shard thing?), and plummeted to his death. Seems they took that area out of the demo.

G-Prime posted:

For all the hate that 2 got, it was honestly a pretty fun game. It obviously had flaws, and the story was pretty dull, but it wasn't an absolute pile of garbage like a lot of people have made it out to be. Even the worst DMC game is still a better game than a lot of the crap that comes out these days.

2's biggest problem was that it got really loving boring, really loving quickly. No weapon variation (outside of the ranged weapons), little-to no combo variation, having the same moves throughout the entire game, with the only upgrades being "does more damage", tedious boss battles that were nearly impossible to melee against (Jokatgulm, Infested Chopper, Noctpteran, Tateobesu, Trismagia, and Argosax the Chaos), rather bland levels sloppliy put together, a story that feels like big chunks of it are missing, and so on.

It has its good points; the music is pretty good, and it created some innovations and moves that were carried over into the much more superior 3. It's worth a quick play (the whole game can be done in just under 6 hours), just to see it, but it's easier just to check out Accounting Nightmare's retrospective, which pretty much hits the nail on the head, on all the good and bad points.

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Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010

AVENGER!


The Despair Embodied was an awesome drat boss that was wasted on DMC2 and it had the best boss track in the whole game. I mean seriously, how did they get everything so wrong, but muster up enough competency to make a solid boss that wouldn't be out of place in any other DMC game?

Szurumbur
Feb 17, 2011


This whole conundrum about manual lock-on being too complicated would be more believable if they didn't talk about an entirely optional feature utilizing one button Just come on, how moronic a defence is that?

If they really detest it that much, they could have a toggle in the options "Lock-on manual/auto/button press" or some poo poo, but no, they have vision, you just don't understand.

Pesky Splinter
Feb 16, 2011

A worried pug.


Sex_Ferguson posted:

I mean seriously, how did they get everything so wrong, but muster up enough competency to make a solid boss that wouldn't be out of place in any other DMC game?

It's amazing enough that the same crew managed to make arguably the best DMC game after, as well.

Szurumbur posted:

Just come on, how moronic a defence is that?

It's a bizarre song and dance they're going through to justify some of their creative decisions:

"We got rid of manual lock-on because Itsano didn't want it/Ran out of buttons/Made the controls too complex/Manual lock-on is too complex for people/Ran out of time to implement it." Despite the most common complaint being the auto lock-on.

"We got rid of the taunt because it would conflict with the narrative." Even though he has preset taunts during boss battles that happen anyway, and is the sort of character who would taunt anyway.

"We've made it so 30fps feels like 60fps." So when it drops to 20fps (as it often does on the PS3), then obviously it'll feel like 40fps? Right?

And that's not even touching the poo poo to do with the balancing issues and the Style Gauge.

That Fucking Sned
Oct 28, 2010



I'm just going to buy the PC version, swap Dante's model, and replace every single sound byte with "This party's getting crazy!". At least then it might feel like a proper Devil May Cry game.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



That loving Sned posted:

I'm just going to buy the PC version, swap Dante's model, and replace every single sound byte with "This party's getting crazy!". At least then it might feel like a proper Devil May Cry game.

Not unless you mod in a good style system.

Pesky Splinter
Feb 16, 2011

A worried pug.


Interview:

NT Artists on why Dante is such a dickhead posted:

If there’s a single thing Devil May Cry reboot detractors criticize more than anything, it’s Dante’s controversial character changes. The initial uproar was caused over the redesign in appearance, but since then the single most community abhorred aspect of Dante has easily been his “trying too hard to be cool” personality.

Edge interviewed Ninja Theory’s technical art director, Stuart Adcock, along with their concept artist Alessandro Taini, and rather bluntly asked whether Dante is a dickhead, to which Alessandro responded:

"When it comes to character, especially one like Dante, we think about his past. If he’s a little bit of a dickhead it’s because, in the past, he’s been through a lot of things. We’ve been looking at a lot of movies about attitude – characters like Fight Club’s, for example. The way they speak and pose – it’s better not to have an argument with them. The eyes, the look. So we really concentrated on that for Dante. He has to be a believable character. If this guy walked into a club with a big sword and leather jacket, it wouldn’t work in our game."

Ninja Theory’s art director Adcock added:

"We are giving the boring answer which is that it’s character progression. To do that, we had to strip a lot of things off the preconceived Dante to fit him in this world and tell that story. See how you feel about him after you’ve been through the cool moments with him and seen the story as he does. Also, if you see one extreme then it’s more effective when you come to gel with him, when you have those story moments when you see genuine feeling and emotion on him. Like a lot of things it makes that more apparent."

Alessandro Taini then threw in a wonderful web-slinging reference:

"I like the example of the last Spider-Man movie. When he’s just realized his power and you see him standing on top of that building with just a bag and a mask he took from a shop, and his trainers. When I saw that I was like: this is kind of our Dante because that progression is there. And the last Batman movie, even Chronicle. It’s not new what we’re doing. Many movies now try to tell stories in a more human and realistic way."

Stuart Adcock went on to directly address his issue with the jaded online gamers, and how they’re not giving Dante a chance:

"I think that was the only thing we felt about the reactions [from forum posters]. We put all this effort into figuring out a good story arc and good character development for Dante, peeling everything back on the conceptual level and just feeling it in his eyes, in this youthful kid that had fight in him but was also tired of trying to escape Limbo and not knowing why. We have such a big investment of time into the character of Dante that to be getting into conversations about his hair was, I dunno… just wait and see."

Are you willing to “wait and see” or has Dante’s radical re-imagining irreversibly ruined Ninja Theory’s take on Devil May Cry for you?

Short version: He starts off as a dick and totally grows as a character, and you'll feel empathy for him and poo poo.

Temascos
Sep 3, 2011



God, another interview where they try and divert criticism by making about it being his freaking hair. IT WAS NEVER HIS HAIR. WE ACCEPTED THE HAIR.

Its the interviews that are making me more and more aggrevated with Ninja Theory.

Three Cookies
Apr 9, 2010



Did someone at Ninja Theory cosplay as Dante and get laughed at for it?

Oh Snapple!
Dec 27, 2005



At this point I'm wondering if it's even in the realm of possibility that someone at Ninja Theory can open their mouth without coming off as a smug, condescending douchebag.

Monkey Fracas
Sep 11, 2010

...but then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you!


Grimey Drawer

Oh Snapple! posted:

At this point I'm wondering if it's even in the realm of possibility that someone at Ninja Theory can open their mouth without coming off as a smug, condescending douchebag.

Judging by Tameem, no.

FedEx Mercury
Jan 7, 2004

Me bad posting? That's unpossible!


Lipstick Apathy

Pesky Splinter posted:

Interview:


Short version: He starts off as a dick and totally grows as a character, and you'll feel empathy for him and poo poo.

That's pretty much his arc in DMC3. Only his dickishness was somehow more likeable in that game.

charismaslover
Dec 3, 2006

Too stylish for this world...


notZaar posted:

That's pretty much his arc in DMC3. Only his dickishness was somehow more likeable in that game.

"This party's gettin' crazy. Let's Rock!" *Surfs around on a rocket*

Playing through 3 on the HD collection, it was weird starting a fresh character again and not having Stinger or Air Hike from the get go. I died quite a few times to Cerberus, I kept on forgetting that he drops icicles from the ceiling and that I don't have Trickster Lv. 3.

wildzero
Apr 23, 2008

"My name is Dante."
"Fuck you say?"



Pesky Splinter posted:

Interview:


Short version: He starts off as a dick and totally grows as a character, and you'll feel empathy for him and poo poo.

Ah yes, thank you, NT. I remember the best parts about DMC1, 3, and 4 being when Dante was vulnerable as a character and I could appreciate him for his faults as a person. It filled me with something.

Pesky Splinter
Feb 16, 2011

A worried pug.


notZaar posted:

That's pretty much his arc in DMC3. Only his dickishness was somehow more likeable in that game.

It probably helps that he's so cartoony in the other games. At no point are people trying to convince you that he's anything other than that. This reboot is basically trying to keep that cartoonishness, but projecting it onto a more realistic world - so it comes across as him being a complete douche.

Like, you couldn't have the new Dante suddenly break into a faux-Shakespearean dialogue, or break the fourth wall, or surf missiles or whatever. It'd be too much of a clash.

FedEx Mercury
Jan 7, 2004

Me bad posting? That's unpossible!


Lipstick Apathy

Did you already forget the scene where he gets dressed in slow motion while flying through a debris field of pizza and junk from his trailer? That was a pretty cool scene, but it kind of doesn't work great with the rest of his attitude in the game (that we've seen so far.)

Zellyn
Sep 27, 2000

The way he truly is.


Plus, in DMC3 Dante was only ever really a dick to monsters that were sticking scythes through him and otherwise trying to attack him. Donte is being a dick to people who are just doing their job, like the bouncer he beats up.

FedEx Mercury
Jan 7, 2004

Me bad posting? That's unpossible!


Lipstick Apathy

DMC3 Dante pointlessly antagonizes Lady in every encounter (even if she isn't the nicest person to him to begin with) and is generally really abrasive. It's nice that by the end of the game he actually has something to care about and can show some empathy while still kicking rear end.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



To be fair I am pretty sure Lady starts off trying to murder him too. Everyone in DMC3 is a dick.

Pesky Splinter
Feb 16, 2011

A worried pug.


^^^
[e]: Yeah, Lady's first action is to shoot a missile at him. Before she finds out he's half-demon. Lady's pretty great like that.

notZaar posted:

Did you already forget the scene where he gets dressed in slow motion while flying through a debris field of pizza and junk from his trailer? That was a pretty cool scene, but it kind of doesn't work great with the rest of his attitude in the game (that we've seen so far.)

I had forgotten that

But that's the best example so far - I mean it's a funny scene (It got a chuckle out of me) - but it doesn't seem to mesh well with how they appear to be trying to present him.

Either have Dante be a goof and campy and not really meant to be taken seriously, or have him be dour and serious. Not trying to blend the two in this uneasy mix.

Pesky Splinter fucked around with this message at Dec 9, 2012 around 00:19

randombattle
Oct 16, 2008

This hand of mine shines and roars! It's bright cry tells me to grasp victory!



notZaar posted:

DMC3 Dante pointlessly antagonizes Lady in every encounter (even if she isn't the nicest person to him to begin with) and is generally really abrasive. It's nice that by the end of the game he actually has something to care about and can show some empathy while still kicking rear end.

Dante in 3 was also trying to get her to go away because she isn't an invincible demon hunter. Once he realized she could hold her own he backed off.

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007

a negative influence


notZaar posted:

DMC3 Dante pointlessly antagonizes Lady in every encounter (even if she isn't the nicest person to him to begin with) and is generally really abrasive. It's nice that by the end of the game he actually has something to care about and can show some empathy while still kicking rear end.

He caught her after she fell from the top of a very tall building, and she replied by shooting him in the head. Um, rude.

wildzero
Apr 23, 2008

"My name is Dante."
"Fuck you say?"



I figured that was just how people like Dante and Lady flirt, since all they seem to know is violence and fighting demons; not really having the chance to properly socialize. Because they're not really "normal people."

Or am I trudging into Tameem's "characterization" territory. I don't want to be like Tameem.

FedEx Mercury
Jan 7, 2004

Me bad posting? That's unpossible!


Lipstick Apathy

Oxxidation posted:

He caught her after she fell from the top of a very tall building, and she replied by shooting him in the head. Um, rude.

Yeah he did and then he just left her dangling while he cracked wise. He also kept pushing her buttons when she discovered him with Arkham's "corpse." I'm not saying Lady is a saint but Dante knows she can't really hurt him and yet he kept pissing her off more than necessary.

Pesky Splinter
Feb 16, 2011

A worried pug.


wildzero posted:

I figured that was just how people like Dante and Lady flirt, since all they seem to know is violence and fighting demons; not really having the chance to properly socialize. Because they're not really "normal people."

Or am I trudging into Tameem's "characterization" territory. I don't want to be like Tameem.

It felt like a bit of that, and a bit of what Randombattle said. Lady's putting all her effort into killing the demons and trying to kill Dante, whereas Dante is just toying with her and goofing off.

[e]: Found some more models:


for Dante
http://i.imgur.com/W0gL4.jpg

Pesky Splinter fucked around with this message at Dec 9, 2012 around 01:00

Bleep
Feb 7, 2004



Temascos posted:

God, another interview where they try and divert criticism by making about it being his freaking hair. IT WAS NEVER HIS HAIR. WE ACCEPTED THE HAIR.

Its the interviews that are making me more and more aggrevated with Ninja Theory.

New Dante looked really bad in the reveal trailer, but I think the current design they have for him is fine. If it weren't linked to an existing series, he would be just another brown haired adult male video game hero. Completely inoffensive, but also not interesting in any way.

I don't think Ninja Theory or the gaming media will ever accept existing Devil May Cry fans have problems with the game outside of art and story, it's much easier to say peoples complaints are purely superficial and quickly move on.

Alacron
Feb 15, 2007

-->Have tearful reunion with your son
-->Eh

Fun Shoe

You know, it's interesting now that I think about it. Are there any characters in the series who never tried to kill Dante or otherwise wanted him dead? I can't really think of any besides maybe Kyrie.

Until this game you never see how Dante would act around normal people, and Ninja Theory's answer seems to be, "He's a total stinkyhole, ISN'T THAT COOL!?"

Pesky Splinter
Feb 16, 2011

A worried pug.


Alacron posted:

You know, it's interesting now that I think about it. Are there any characters in the series who never tried to kill Dante or otherwise wanted him dead? I can't really think of any besides maybe Kyrie.

Until this game you never see how Dante would act around normal people, and Ninja Theory's answer seems to be, "He's a total stinkyhole, ISN'T THAT COOL!?"

Lucia and Matier haven't really tried to kill Dante. Well, okay not quite...Lucia made a deliberately weak attempt to try to goad him into shooting her, because she was having an existential crisis at the time. Of course that's DMC2, so gently caress that.

The (now non-canon) books have him interacting with people and other mercenaries. A large majority don't like him because he's bad for business, because he's too good at what he does. He's still an utter dick to most people as well. There's a few exceptions, like the gunsmith who made the parts of E&I for him to assemble, and a merc buddy of his, and the guy's family. I think it notes that spending time with the merc's family is also about as close to normalcy as Dante's life gets.

wildzero
Apr 23, 2008

"My name is Dante."
"Fuck you say?"



If we're to get more characterization of Dante, I want to see him just hanging out with regular people who are his actual friends instead of being some alternate-universe jerkbag who gets into barfights and joins Anonymous to fight FOX News and Mtn Dew.

What's sad is that that idea is just stupid enough to be cool if done right, but NT seems to want to make it a "serious" narrative.

wildzero fucked around with this message at Dec 9, 2012 around 12:45

No. 1 Apartheid Fan
Aug 20, 2005



The idea itself, and the construction of New Dante as a more "punk" character, has always been sound in my mind and I'm going to reserve judgment on the writing until people have actually played through the entire game. Even if they do it half-right, it'll be more interesting than what's going on in prior DMC games.

The gameplay is the thing people should rightfully be worried about, but I absolutely don't buy that 95% of the DMC fanbase is just worried about that and not "purely superficial" stuff. The level of discussion in this thread re: mechanical integrity has been a lot higher than most people ever discuss games anywhere and assuredly than most of the bad feedback NT's gotten, and even it occasionally descends into "ugh Old Dante is so much cooler than New Dante".

wildzero
Apr 23, 2008

"My name is Dante."
"Fuck you say?"



Don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely more concerned with the gameplay than the non-gameplay stuff; especially after playing the 360 demo and having problems with the unintuitive controls, broken scoring system, and slower pacing. It felt like a slightly less poo poo Heavenly Sword. It's just that it's kind of easy to make fun of how self-assured and navel-gazing NT (especially Tameem) is in how "mature" and "contemporary" their story is, as though they're some kind of literary masters.

My threshold for taking their attempt at "punk" and "anti-establishment" construction seriously sort of fell pretty flat when the "Eye of Dante" app was advertised, and was full of trendy people running about with iPads and iPhones taking pictures of things so that they can unlock in-game stuff. Granted, I'm sure NT wasn't directly involved with it and it was some thing cooked up in a boardroom by marketing assholes.

wildzero fucked around with this message at Dec 9, 2012 around 13:15

toasterwarrior
Nov 11, 2011


I know it's not exactly fair to judge the game's story and characters when we haven't seen the entirety of it, but if NT wants to constantly push them as "quality" parts of the game, then people can't help but judge them by what they've already revealed.

What you see in it is up to personal taste, but from the lack of enthusiasm from most people following the game, I don't think it's up to snuff in general.

vvv: Yeah, the elephantitis gloves were shown in action. Check Pesky's posts in this thread, I think he was the one who put them up.

toasterwarrior fucked around with this message at Dec 9, 2012 around 13:45

charismaslover
Dec 3, 2006

Too stylish for this world...


So during the fight with Beowulf I actually remembered how to dodge using lock-on, I had just been using trickster to dodge attacks until then

It's all slowly coming back to me.

Have we seen any footage of the fist weapons from DmC? I've only seen the screenshots and they look so lazily designed that I was wondering if it looked better in game.

Pesky Splinter
Feb 16, 2011

A worried pug.


Going after the story and art direction is easy pickings, made even easy by NT's sincere belief, that they are crafting a genre-changing narrative, which is a contemporary satire on modern society and its ills. And they've placed a lot of emphasis on this story.
The downside to that, is all they've basically done, is smash together DMC1 and 3' story with "They Live", a Futurama joke, the social media "revolution", and Fox News. And this is just what they've already shown, and most of it has been fairly poo poo.

Yeah, maybe in the full game it won't be seem so awful - maybe it works in context, or whatever. In the end, it's an action game - it's easy to forgive/ignore a nonsense or lacklustre story if the gameplay is good (and that's really the selling point of the game). At least, that's my view on it.

The story, setting and characters are subjective - that's fine BTW. The gameplay isn't, and that's the main issue I have with DmC. I mean it's okay as a standalone game, but as a DMC, it's just nowhere near that standard.

charismaslover posted:

Have we seen any footage of the fist weapons from DmC? I've only seen the screenshots and they look so lazily designed that I was wondering if it looked better in game.

Try here (The guy playing it is terrible).
They don't really look that great in action either - there's this weird orange cone that appears when they charge up and swing, which looks a bit strange. They function identically to the other fist weapons though.

Pesky Splinter fucked around with this message at Dec 9, 2012 around 14:58

Szurumbur
Feb 17, 2011


The first sentence written in a DmC write-up in a magazine I read today: "Dante doing Shoryuken? Unthinkable; but using Eryx, a new melee weapon, it's very much possible" (translated). etc.

ShadeofDante
Feb 17, 2007

speaking of minds! know what's on mine? murders.

The demo (360 one anyway) was just bland.

It wasn't really offensively bad or anything, it just felt soulless. As several others have pointed out in the thread, if the game was called anything else it'd be getting little attention, come out with mediocre reviews and be done with it. But NT seems to be trying to hype this game up to be some big amazing production with their horrible PR.

I thought the grapple mechanics were neat, but not cool enough that I needed two buttons to push/pull, instead of just hitting one. The visuals were really quite nice but the gameplay behind them was just boring. Again, if it wasn't trying to be part of the same series that gave us DMC1, 3, and 4 maybe I wouldn't judge it so harshly, but when they keep going on and on how this is "DMC for a new generation" or whatever.

Also, I really didn't mind 2 when it came out. It's easily the weakest in the series so far but even that game felt more "DMC" than the demo did for DmC.

charismaslover
Dec 3, 2006

Too stylish for this world...


Pretty sure Dante had a Shoryuken in DMC4 using Gilgamesh, it was called Rising Dragon but it was essentially the same.

Edit - also Vergil fights in DMC3 loving own.

charismaslover fucked around with this message at Dec 9, 2012 around 16:12

Yeah Bro
Feb 4, 2012



charismaslover posted:

Pretty sure Dante had a Shoryuken in DMC4 using Gilgamesh, it was called Rising Dragon but it was essentially the same.

Shoryuken is literally "Rising Dragon Fist" in English.

Szurumbur
Feb 17, 2011


charismaslover posted:

Pretty sure Dante had a Shoryuken in DMC4 using Gilgamesh, it was called Rising Dragon but it was essentially the same.

You also could do Shin Shoryuken in DMC3, using Beowulf and Swordmaster, which was my point

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FedEx Mercury
Jan 7, 2004

Me bad posting? That's unpossible!


Lipstick Apathy

Well that explains it, none of these people previewing the game played past the original DMC. That's why they seem so clueless and are praising gameplay mechanics which been been part of the series for years now!

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