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A new trailer is up! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXXyNlwXQsU It looks rather clunky IMO. Its also looks slow compared to both DMC 4 and Bayonetta. Thoughts?
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Dec 19, 2011 20:51
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Pesky Splinter posted:A new trailer is up! It certainly doesn't look very smooth. The weapon combos look incredibly disjointed, as if there is a slight pause between lightning fast strikes rather than quick moving, smooth strikes. In short, this "Dante" guy swings his weapon like a badly animated cartoon character, rather than the star of an fast-paced video game. At least this video confirms that I have nothing to be excited about. E: I mean every single swing I saw in that trailer; I think it comes from the fact that the weapons' models are nearly invisible during the swing compared to the silly looking "speed lines" or whatever the gently caress curved lines keep appearing in the middle of nowhere, even without contact with an enemy. satanic splash-back fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Dec 19, 2011 |
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Dec 19, 2011 21:11
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Overdrive! If you're going to flat-out steal stuff from the other games then take it ALL so we get a game that doesn't play like the "slowdownSPEEDUP" scenes from 300, please.
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Dec 19, 2011 21:16
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Monkey Fracas posted:Overdrive! If you're going to flat-out steal stuff from the other games then take it ALL so we get a game that doesn't play like the "slowdownSPEEDUP" scenes from 300, please. Are you talking about the brief slow-down when he dodges? Because that's pretty much a rip off of Bayonetta's Witch time. The combat looks janky as hell. Not looking good DmC. Edit - Here's a good video of Enemy Step jump cancelling. Keep in mind he's doing absolutely nothing fancy in this video, and Dante can do enemy step poo poo that's just insane (thanks to Trickster). Considering 99% of the people who play DMC probably have no idea how to really use enemy step, it really shows how deep the combat systems can be. Compare this to DmC. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRH1FVkwTNw&t=97s User0015 fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Dec 19, 2011 |
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Dec 19, 2011 22:36
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Pesky Splinter posted:A new trailer is up! I don't want to come off as an apologist, but you should probably keep in mind that this might not be beefed-up Dante and the person playing him is not very good. That said, if this IS the most the game has to offer than I'm less than impressed. The combat looks mashy and oversimplified and emphasis on those slowdown parts is simply distracting. No style meter in sight is also plenty worrisome; does anyone know if they're even keeping it? The only really big thing that I have against this new trailer is loving LENS FLARE. Jesus poo poo, I get that your game is very pretty Ninja Theory but could you stop shoving it in my loving face long enough for me to see what I'm doing in an action game. This looks like it's grinding my gears disproportionately to the nature of the problem, but being able to see in the middle of a fight seems very basic for designing a game like this.
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Dec 19, 2011 23:50
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Jetpack Postman posted:I don't want to come off as an apologist, but you should probably keep in mind that this might not be beefed-up Dante and the person playing him is not very good. That said, if this IS the most the game has to offer than I'm less than impressed. The combat looks mashy and oversimplified and emphasis on those slowdown parts is simply distracting. No style meter in sight is also plenty worrisome; does anyone know if they're even keeping it? I think the problem with that argument is that DMC3/4/Bayonetta start beefed up and just beef you up more, which is a lot more fun then starting off crappy and getting good. In those, you start off awesome and get better. It'd be really disappointing if they didn't get that.
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Dec 20, 2011 00:13
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User0015 posted:Are you talking about the brief slow-down when he dodges? Nah, I'm talking about the Swordmaster style move "Overdrive". It's a continuation of the "Drive" move. Ya know, RT+ RS back+ O?  Sorry...I'm just irritated that they appear to be just randomly cherrypicking stuff out of the DMC games to put in their (probably) lovely game.
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Dec 20, 2011 00:22
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Jetpack Postman posted:No style meter in sight is also plenty worrisome; does anyone know if they're even keeping it? Apparently, they are not fully removing it, it simply won't be on a HUD, and you'll be able to tell how well you're doing by how the background music changes. Ha. Ha. Ha. H...a.....h........a. I can see that working well [/sarcasm] [e]: Yeah, I know I shouldn't be all gloom and doom about every new bit of info, I don't like feeling like that about these things, but..... VVV Pesky Splinter fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Dec 20, 2011 |
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Dec 20, 2011 00:26
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That doesn't seem to be bad way to do it actually, as long as the difference between doing well and doing poorly is noticeable. No need to be doom and gloom about every decision.
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Dec 20, 2011 00:32
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ImpAtom posted:I think the problem with that argument is that DMC3/4/Bayonetta start beefed up and just beef you up more, which is a lot more fun then starting off crappy and getting good. In those, you start off awesome and get better. It'd be really disappointing if they didn't get that. That's true. I guess I've been so wrapped up in other games that I forgot that DMC/Bayonetta starts you off in such a way that you can start even the hardest difficulties with a fresh character and still do well as long as you're good enough. Yeesh, I was gonna make a statement earlier that it seems like Ninja Theory met DMC partway and filled the rest up with God of War and now that statement doesn't seem so inaccurate. ThePhenomenalBaby posted:That doesn't seem to be bad way to do it actually, as long as the difference between doing well and doing poorly is noticeable. No need to be doom and gloom about every decision. Actually, it kinda is a bad way of doing it. Not having a way to keep an eye on your style is detrimental to finding out which combos work and being unable to find out how quickly your style is draining prevents you from keeping on top of things and keeping your style as high as you can for as long as possible. Not to mention how unintuitive it is to make a sound-based ranking system. You have to memorize which soundtracks mean what in terms of how well you're doing and trying to actively keep yourself from tuning out the music while concentrating on fighting. Not an easy or comfortable thing to do in a game as combat heavy as this, as you can imagine. This isn't a big deal to people who mash through the game once and shelve it, but to those of us who like to learn how to overachieve this is a pretty big oversight on Ninja Theory's part. At this rate, the game likely has a single "Hard" difficulty where enemies are simply hit-sponges that do more damage.
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Dec 20, 2011 00:52
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Well if you're going to make me memorize which moves give the most style in what situations in order to get an S Rank you might as well make the bar invisible and tie style to the music so the HUD isn't obstructed in your vision of DMC. Makes it more challenging for me, which I don't really mind. In any case I still stand by the statement that it isn't inherently bad. It all depends on implementation. There is way more stuff that they've shown that I have problems with. This change to the style system doesn't immediately come out as a bad design decision, even if you are playing for score.
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Dec 20, 2011 01:03
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ThePhenomenalBaby posted:Well if you're going to make me memorize which moves give the most style in what situations in order to get an S Rank you might as well make the bar invisible and tie style to the music so the HUD isn't obstructed in your vision of DMC. Makes it more challenging for me, which I don't really mind. One of the strengths of DMC's style system is that you don't have to memorize a whole lot in order to get a high score. You just have to know that doing the same move or moves repeatedly within a short time of each other doesn't help your score, so you need to vary things up. Having a bar that keeps track of this makes it simple to see if your moves are pushing your score higher or sinking it lower. Tying it to the music essentially makes it a guessing game on how well you're doing. You may be able to tell if you have S-rank music, but you don't know if you're climbing to SS-rank or sinking to A-rank. Though, I should probably admit that this is going under the assumption that Style in DmC works similar to what we know from 3 and 4. Which could be a good or bad thing depending on how it all plays out.
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Dec 20, 2011 01:43
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ThePhenomenalBaby posted:Well if you're going to make me memorize which moves give the most style in what situations in order to get an S Rank DMC doesn't do this. If you try to use the same combos every time in every situation it will eat you alive. It gives you a ton of combos for a reason, you know.
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Dec 20, 2011 01:50
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Who What Now posted:DMC doesn't do this. If you try to use the same combos every time in every situation it will eat you alive. It gives you a ton of combos for a reason, you know. I'm well aware that doing jump cancelled starfalls prorate the build of the style meter by ridiculous degrees even if they do good damage. I also know you have to do about three different moves or so before the first move you did will actually build style meter again (been awhile). I understand these subsystems. I'm just saying that a change to these subsystems that disguises the meter in favor of something else isn't inherently bad without me or someone else giving their opinion on the game in some sort of playable build. It's something that can't be judged at this time. All I can say is "okay, what else ya got?" Clearly the best answer is to keep the bar as an option that can be toggled. There, those that want the style system "in the background" because of their immersion or whatever but want to score better with music cues have the option. Actually can you even turn off the style meter in previous games? ThePhenomenalBaby fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Dec 20, 2011 |
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Dec 20, 2011 01:58
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For any of that to matter would require the game's combat system to be good first which so far it certainly doesn't look to be. The fact that it's 30 FPS pretty much should already prove that this game's not going to even have a smidgeon of the depth of any of it's predecessors. I just really don't understand why this is a Devil May Cry game and not an individual IP or something from Ninja Theory. It really seems like a shot in the foot marketing wise.
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Dec 20, 2011 02:08
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Fereydun posted:For any of that to matter would require the game's combat system to be good first which so far it certainly doesn't look to be. The fact that it's 30 FPS pretty much should already prove that this game's not going to even have a smidgeon of the depth of any of it's predecessors. True. I'm just a huge goddamn nerd for gameplay mechanics, so when I get going I tend to keep going. This game might be a Devil May Cry game because of marketing. The party line for these decisions tends to be that established IPs are easier to sell than new ones. I don't know how true that is and I'm also unaware whether or not that accounts for new companies taking on these IPs either. But that all goes out the window if Ninja Theory just wanted to develop a Devil May Cry game to begin with. V  V
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Dec 20, 2011 03:01
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Pickled Kittens posted:It certainly doesn't look very smooth. The weapon combos look incredibly disjointed, as if there is a slight pause between lightning fast strikes rather than quick moving, smooth strikes. I think you're really reaching about the animation, as Dante's movements (the weapons themselves.. ehh) are really good and I think the issue is that they made him seem weak. It's definitely looking smooth, but his weapons seem far more weighted than previous games. This is an issue because this is motherfuckin' Dante, he should be lifting and attacking poo poo with ease, not struggling to deliver an attack. Edit: To reiterate, I don't think the actual gameplay looks any fun or really even.. good. But Ninja Theory delivers on visuals and do great work with actual animation/mo-cap work.
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Dec 20, 2011 03:34
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Jetpack Postman posted:True. I'm just a huge goddamn nerd for gameplay mechanics, so when I get going I tend to keep going. I think this is a pretty blatant cash-in. However, I'm not sure how it's going to work. Is DMC really a popular enough IP to warrant attaching it to what should be it's own game to sell more copies? I thought the whole hardcore action game thing was a bit niche, actually. So if the only people who are "under the brand's power" are those who really love the high skill ceiling anyway, what do they have to gain by attaching the IP to a game with a lackluster combat system? The non-crazy-action people would have an equal chance of buying the game anyway since they don't care about the series, and the fans from before are just going to be pissed off at the changes and have a reduced chance of buying it. I'm probably missing a few things. Maybe I'm reading too much into the scant gameplay evidence that has been released so far.... Maybe DMC4 released with more fanfare than I remember....
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Dec 20, 2011 04:42
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Monkey Fracas posted:I think this is a pretty blatant cash-in. However, I'm not sure how it's going to work. Is DMC really a popular enough IP to warrant attaching it to what should be it's own game to sell more copies? I thought the whole hardcore action game thing was a bit niche, actually. It's popular enough to warrant an HD re-release of the initial trilogy. I don't agree that the action sub-genre that DMC belongs to is all that niche, however. Bayonetta sold well more than a million copies worldwide. That's not exactly blockbuster numbers, but still pretty impressive for a Japanese action game about woman who summons demons with her hair. I don't know how closely Capcom itself worked on the project. They're the publisher of several big releases, so they might've just given Ninja Theory the contract, sent them a few series vets for some advice and let them be on their way. For typical action game standards it looks like a solid (albiet fairly so-so) title with really good graphics and animation, kinda like Heavenly Sword did. That's probably enough for Capcom to feel comfortable with their work, since they've likely seen enough that they know the game isn't going to be a horrible mess. We're all certainly reading a bit much into the little gameplay we've seen and it certainly will affect our purchase decisions, but I'm fairly certain the average fan isn't paying nearly as much attention to the game.
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Dec 20, 2011 05:06
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Pesky Splinter posted:A new trailer is up! Wow. This is probably one of the most striking areas I've ever seen in a video game. Really cool art style and atmosphere. I also liked the video earlier where the area dante was moving in was actively working against him with the words spelled out in the environment. I don't think sections like that will make up a large part of the game, and I think if they're all as well done as that then they could work well to break up the action segments. As far as the combat goes, it looks alright? I don't like the lack of a HUD, I think a HUD benefits a lot of games and DMC is one of them. The slowdown after dodging isn't like bayonetta at all; dodging in that game is used to engage witch time which allows you to hit an enemy some more. The slowdown after the dodge in this appears to be simply a visual flair thing. I think it looks cool, but I also think 300 was a visually engaging movie and I never get sick of the little tricks it introduced. I've never played a God of War game, but I have played that new Castlevania game which is apparently a ripoff of GoW's mechanics? It seems to me that the difference between that and DMC is that DMC is all about being agile and moving around and killing a bunch of dudes, but that game was about taking forever to kill a single enemy and blocking and looking for opportune moments to plink away at people. I hated it. From the videos it looks like that aspect of DMC's combat is intact.
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Dec 20, 2011 05:07
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I actually like the bullet time effect after a successful dodge in Bayonetta: it showed the difference between you dodging an attack "correctly" (as in, the right frames that'll trigger Witch Time) and just dodging prematurely because you saw the tell and reacted too fast. On the subject of that trailer, I think it looks pretty good in the context of all the pessimism. Could use a bit more polish in regards to animation pacing and overall speed, and it's still missing the HUD; but overall, it's on the right path what with the emphasis on mobility and switching weapons on the fly. It'll be a bummer if DmC has a turbo mode which moves at non-turbo DMC4's speed. vvv: Yeah, I meant that we don't have a complete picture to judge since there's no HUD. toasterwarrior fucked around with this message at 10:39 on Dec 20, 2011 |
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Dec 20, 2011 05:19
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The lack of a HUD is due to this being a promotional video. Lots of games release videos like that. The final product will have a HUD.
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Dec 20, 2011 07:44
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Just wait till they reveal health regen or something.
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Dec 20, 2011 08:00
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Who What Now posted:DMC doesn't do this. If you try to use the same combos every time in every situation it will eat you alive. It gives you a ton of combos for a reason, you know. Yeah pretty sure this is bullshit. As long as you find the right opening you can do the same loving combo a million times. I should know because that's exactly how I beat DMC4 and Bayonetta.
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Dec 20, 2011 08:16
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TheJazzMess posted:Yeah pretty sure this is bullshit. As long as you find the right opening you can do the same loving combo a million times. I should know because that's exactly how I beat DMC4 and Bayonetta. You get diminishing, and eventually, zero returns on your Style meter and end-of-mission points using the same move over and over.
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Dec 20, 2011 08:19
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Coughing Hobo posted:You get diminishing, and eventually, zero returns on your Style meter and end-of-mission points using the same move over and over. It's a good formula- you can win by doing the same thing over and over, but that just wouldn't be very Stylish of you, now would it?
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Dec 20, 2011 08:26
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Hey, removing green orbs and using a regen system based on how Stylish you're doing sounds pretty cool. Done right, it'd be one thing DmC executed better than Duke Nukem Forever.
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Dec 20, 2011 10:43
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toasterwarrior posted:Hey, removing green orbs and using a regen system based on how Stylish you're doing sounds pretty cool. Done right, it'd be one thing DmC executed better than Duke Nukem Forever. Thats vaguely similar to the system in the new castlevania for 360/ps3
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Dec 20, 2011 11:10
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I've loved DMC since the first and this game looks good for a new action titles but it really isn't up to the DMC standard yet. Hell only a few titles are which is why i'm confused as to what Capcom is thinking.
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Dec 20, 2011 11:49
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toasterwarrior posted:Hey, removing green orbs and using a regen system based on how Stylish you're doing sounds pretty cool. Done right, it'd be one thing DmC executed better than Duke Nukem Forever. That would have the same basic problem as Castlevania:LoS did. It gives the advantage to players who don't need it as opposed to players who do. If you're getting ridiculous SSS-rank combos, you're a lot less likely to need green orbs in the first place. LoS kinda tried to balance this by letting you pick between health or damage but the end result was kind of iffy at best and basically resulted in good players having the functional equivalent of Infinite Devil Trigger which is a little dull. Players who need health the most are those who are least likely to have mastered the system enough to get long cool combos. Arkham Asylum kind of pulled it off but Arkham Asylum just tied health regen to experience gain, as opposed to pure gameplay, so it worked out okay because it was just one of many methods to get HP back. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Dec 20, 2011 |
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Dec 20, 2011 19:07
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That's a very good point in regards to helping players which wouldn't really need it; I was just thinking how to make the erratic green orb drop system work better since in past games you could get scratched at full health and get healed by the next thing you kill while you could be at a sliver of life left and not get healed after clearing two rooms of enemies. I guess that that's part of the reason why DMC4 didn't count items used in the mission end score: so you could use your green stars and not rely on the RNG without fear of dropping in score ranking. Speaking of experience gain, I wonder if they'll integrate the Proud Soul system (or god forbid the grinding in DMC3, the only thing I didn't like about the game) for unlocking moves and upgrades, or just pass them out to you as the game progresses? vvv: Yeah, ultimately semantics; items or not, you'll still get an SSS rank if you meet the criteria. toasterwarrior fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Dec 20, 2011 |
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Dec 20, 2011 19:37
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You weren't outright penalized for using items in DMC4, but you also didn't get the "No Items" bonus for your rank. It's just semantics.
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Dec 20, 2011 19:50
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Farbtoner posted:No discussion of Dante's re-design is complete without reminding everybody that he's practically the lead designer's self-insert: I was hoping it was based off of the assasin from Lexx.
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Dec 20, 2011 20:04
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ThePhenomenalBaby posted:Well if you're going to make me memorize which moves give the most style in what situations in order to get an S Rank you might as well make the bar invisible and tie style to the music so the HUD isn't obstructed in your vision of DMC. Makes it more challenging for me, which I don't really mind. Sometimes people can't play with the sound on. Like seriously, this isn't that hard.
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Dec 20, 2011 20:29
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Devil May Cry HD Collection release date announced for April 2012. Source: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-12-20-devil-may-cry-hd-collection-release-date-announced
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Dec 20, 2011 20:42
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Rainbow Pony Deluxe posted:Sometimes people can't play with the sound on. Like seriously, this isn't that hard. To be slightly fair, DMC has always had a lot of sound and audio cues. Sometimes a dodge is heavily reliant upon hearing the enemy's attack cry when you can't see them. There's a difference between that and audio-based scoring tho', I think. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Dec 20, 2011 |
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Dec 20, 2011 21:10
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Pesky Splinter posted:Devil May Cry HD Collection release date announced for April 2012. Oh man, that video... I've seen better fan AMVs on Youtube. Nice to see they are putting zero effort in just like the RE collection. I bet they still wont let you rebind buttons in DMC.
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Dec 20, 2011 21:32
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ImpAtom posted:To be slightly fair, DMC has always had a lot of sound and audio queues. Sometimes a dodge is heavily reliant upon hearing the enemy's attack cry when you can't see them. There's a difference between that and audio-based scoring tho', I think. It's actually extremely important for that, too. Games like DMC always need to be 'fair' against the player, so it does lots of things you might not even notice. Some of those things include preventing enemies from attacking while off-screen and using audio cues to indicate enemies who are starting an attack pattern. If you do allow enemies to attack from off-screen (some enemies in Bayonetta do this), audio cues are important. Bayonetta, in particular, doesn't have audio cues for every single attack, so they only allowed attacks that have audio cues to begin while off-screen. They were that particular about it. Another thing that's pretty essential (beyond a meta game like Stylish points, Karma, or Combo points) is allowing players to manipulate their state. Enemy step is a excellent example of letting players reset their state, which allows for crazy poo poo that makes these games so good. Bayonetta doesn't use state resets as much as DMC, but it focuses on it's own method of manipulating states; preventing state resets by letting players continue combos by holding the button down during dodge. Character state control, metagame, 'fair' play by using audio cues and camera controls, all of that goes into an excellent fighting game. The question is, do the DmC developers understand any of that?
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Dec 20, 2011 22:51
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My main gripe with this game is the engine being used. Unreal 3 is just not a good engine for anything fast paced and that combat video proves it, the other issue I have is that the director seems to be obsessed with the concept of "coolness", DMC is more about being stylish than anything else.
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Dec 20, 2011 23:14
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Farbtoner posted:No discussion of Dante's re-design is complete without reminding everybody that he's practically the lead designer's self-insert: I've seen this pop up from time to time, but other than the hair colour I honestly don't see it. 
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Dec 20, 2011 23:16
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