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Jetpack Postman
Jun 30, 2011


AccountingNightmare posted:

Probably my favorite thing about the Devil May Cry series is the learning curve. The more you play, the better you get at the games. And it's more than just knowing a level layout, or getting used to the controls. Your characters are so acrobatic and potentially powerful, that you get better and better at using them all the time.

You also really learn everything about the enemies, what their attacks look like, what the best way to dodge them is, which enemies you should deal with first, etc. It gets to the point where you can be in the midst of a big group of enemies, slashing away constantly, and also dodging all their attacks perfectly as if it's all been choreographed in advance. Feels pretty amazing.

You can feel yourself getting better, to the point where you can utterly decimate things that were challenging to you the first time around. And it's not necessarily because of your upgrades and such, but because you know everything your opponents are going to do, and how to throw it back in their faces while devastating them at the same time.

Also, if anyone here loves DMC but hasn't played Bayonetta yet, do it now. Bayonetta's freaking awesome.

Devil May Cry 3 was the first game where I really found the fun in learning a game as best I could. I'm absolutely awful at any difficulty above Normal (Special Edition Normal, of course), but I had a blast at learning all the hidden ins-and-outs of both the enemies and Dante. Learning something as basic as Dante's jump and first Trickster dash had invulnerability frames blew my goddamn mind and encouraged me to try these new tricks against old enemies and stages. A player's familiarity with the mechanics, weapons and enemies allows them to MAKE enemies into hilarious punching bags instead of simply having enemies BE that way from the get go. I think that's what gives the gameplay of the DMC series and games like it (such as Bayonetta) such style and excitement.

One of the things that really wows me is how simple a lot of the controls are for such a deep and open system. The most complex any move gets in DMC3 is simultaneously pressing forward/backward and an attack button at the same time. The rest is up to the player to learn when and how to best utilize it. After a while, it's so open-ended and intuitive that you can effortlessly link moves together in new and interesting ways. It really helps the case that less complexity in controls, not more, is one of the key factors in adding depth to an action game. Obviously it's a lot more complex than that, but it's an important first point to make.

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Jetpack Postman
Jun 30, 2011


toasterwarrior posted:

I'm willing to give Ninja Theory a chance on this, erratic though their record may be. DMC's story has always been decoration at best to comboing the poo poo out of demons, and it being a prequel works as a decent excuse to have Dante not be the Dante we're used to. We can only hope that being able to pull that insane poo poo off is a possibility in DmC's fighting system.

I think this is the main issue that everyone's keeping their eye on. The only thing that story and tone really effect are whether or not you'll decide to skip cutscenes on repeat playthroughs (or even your first playthrough). The big issue here is the uncertainty of whether or not Ninja Theory "gets it" and a lot of the media they've released has shown that you can do air-combos and swap weapons. Then again, I don't think anyone here has gotten their hands on a playable build so we can't be certain until the game lands. Though it certainly is easy (and fun) to prematurely bitch about it - something I'm certainly guilty of as well - especially in light of certain claims like the game is locked at 30 FPS and certain comments from PR-unsavvy devs.

It is what it is, and if it doesn't end up being any good we can always fall back on the HD collection for our fix.

Jetpack Postman
Jun 30, 2011


Zombies' Downfall posted:

Honestly this is pretty much how I feel. I wasn't nearly as negative about the early stuff as most people; I still think people who called Dante's original design "emo" in this were using a term they don't understand to describe a character they didn't like for silly reflexive reasons. I'm a little more critical of the impressions I've gotten from the gameplay, but I still think it has potential and frankly after Bayonetta I prefer something new to a canned DMC sequel. Bayonetta was a better, more interesting game than DMC4 both in terms of design and gameplay and I probably wouldn't even have bothered to play a generic DMC5.

But if it sucks rear end and bombs hard, and it might, I'll be right there beside everyone else pointing and laughing at Ninja Theory for poo poo like this interview.

EDIT: Also, I never played Enslaved but I thought people sort of liked it? Like the gameplay was more shallow than a DMC game but I seem to remember it being well-received on SA after it came out.

I never really saw the new Dante as "emo", but the first impressions I got is that Ninja Theory was trying a bit too hard to make this game gritty and serious, especially when the main series already attempted that with DMC2 and it backfired to the point where it got disowned. I've scrutinized every new interview and piece of media Ninja Theory has put out since, but I've been trying to chill the hell out and let the game speak for itself when it lands. It could be good and I don't want the fat mouth of some yuppie would-be auteur influence that.

If it does stink, I'll also be with you guys in making the backlash as entertaining as possible.

Jetpack Postman
Jun 30, 2011


Fun Times! posted:

I recently borrowed my friend's PS2 so I could experience all of the games I missed out on being a Nintendo/Xbox gamer. He gave me a bunch of great games but none from this series. Would the first be the best to start out with?

I don't have a whole lot of experience playing any game in the series other than 3 (I played through DMC1 once a long time ago and never touched DMC2), but playing through DMC3: Special Edition is the only game in the series that I'd consider a "must play" of the first three games. It has the most refined gameplay, bosses and weapons out of the three and since the game is considered a prequel (in a series where story arguably takes a backseat to everything else), you don't have to worry about feeling lost. It's hard as hell though, so be prepared for some frustration at first - especially when the second level in the game dumps a boss on you that can teleport and attack you from every which way. It's certainly worth it once you can wrap your head around it.

bleep posted:

Enjoy the serious story of holding up and jumping sometimes to get through a warping world while the glowing words "DIE" and "gently caress YOU" are written on the walls and floor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsJL--fT66A

Eh, I'm not too keen on this video. It's clearly showcasing the visual flourish we can expect in-between individual segments, but not very indicative of the type of gameplay we can expect. Though having the world outright say "gently caress YOU" in bold, white letters is pretty drat silly.

This shows some actual gameplay so make of it what you will. Assuming that this is in the early-game with a limited array of abilities against low-level enemies, it doesn't look half-bad. The video does leave a bit to be desired - no UI means we don't really get a feel for the Style system (if there's one at all) and we haven't really gotten into the meat of some of the game's other mechanics like Devil/Human/Whatever Trigger, but not a bad first showing.

Jetpack Postman
Jun 30, 2011


Pesky Splinter posted:

A new trailer is up!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXXyNlwXQsU

It looks rather clunky IMO. Its also looks slow compared to both DMC 4 and Bayonetta.

Thoughts?

I don't want to come off as an apologist, but you should probably keep in mind that this might not be beefed-up Dante and the person playing him is not very good. That said, if this IS the most the game has to offer than I'm less than impressed. The combat looks mashy and oversimplified and emphasis on those slowdown parts is simply distracting. No style meter in sight is also plenty worrisome; does anyone know if they're even keeping it?

The only really big thing that I have against this new trailer is loving LENS FLARE. Jesus poo poo, I get that your game is very pretty Ninja Theory but could you stop shoving it in my loving face long enough for me to see what I'm doing in an action game. This looks like it's grinding my gears disproportionately to the nature of the problem, but being able to see in the middle of a fight seems very basic for designing a game like this.

Jetpack Postman
Jun 30, 2011


ImpAtom posted:

I think the problem with that argument is that DMC3/4/Bayonetta start beefed up and just beef you up more, which is a lot more fun then starting off crappy and getting good. In those, you start off awesome and get better. It'd be really disappointing if they didn't get that.

That's true. I guess I've been so wrapped up in other games that I forgot that DMC/Bayonetta starts you off in such a way that you can start even the hardest difficulties with a fresh character and still do well as long as you're good enough. Yeesh, I was gonna make a statement earlier that it seems like Ninja Theory met DMC partway and filled the rest up with God of War and now that statement doesn't seem so inaccurate.

ThePhenomenalBaby posted:

That doesn't seem to be bad way to do it actually, as long as the difference between doing well and doing poorly is noticeable. No need to be doom and gloom about every decision.

Actually, it kinda is a bad way of doing it. Not having a way to keep an eye on your style is detrimental to finding out which combos work and being unable to find out how quickly your style is draining prevents you from keeping on top of things and keeping your style as high as you can for as long as possible. Not to mention how unintuitive it is to make a sound-based ranking system. You have to memorize which soundtracks mean what in terms of how well you're doing and trying to actively keep yourself from tuning out the music while concentrating on fighting. Not an easy or comfortable thing to do in a game as combat heavy as this, as you can imagine.

This isn't a big deal to people who mash through the game once and shelve it, but to those of us who like to learn how to overachieve this is a pretty big oversight on Ninja Theory's part. At this rate, the game likely has a single "Hard" difficulty where enemies are simply hit-sponges that do more damage.

Jetpack Postman
Jun 30, 2011


ThePhenomenalBaby posted:

Well if you're going to make me memorize which moves give the most style in what situations in order to get an S Rank you might as well make the bar invisible and tie style to the music so the HUD isn't obstructed in your vision of DMC. Makes it more challenging for me, which I don't really mind.

In any case I still stand by the statement that it isn't inherently bad. It all depends on implementation. There is way more stuff that they've shown that I have problems with. This change to the style system doesn't immediately come out as a bad design decision, even if you are playing for score.

One of the strengths of DMC's style system is that you don't have to memorize a whole lot in order to get a high score. You just have to know that doing the same move or moves repeatedly within a short time of each other doesn't help your score, so you need to vary things up. Having a bar that keeps track of this makes it simple to see if your moves are pushing your score higher or sinking it lower. Tying it to the music essentially makes it a guessing game on how well you're doing. You may be able to tell if you have S-rank music, but you don't know if you're climbing to SS-rank or sinking to A-rank.

Though, I should probably admit that this is going under the assumption that Style in DmC works similar to what we know from 3 and 4. Which could be a good or bad thing depending on how it all plays out.

Jetpack Postman
Jun 30, 2011


Fereydun posted:

For any of that to matter would require the game's combat system to be good first which so far it certainly doesn't look to be. The fact that it's 30 FPS pretty much should already prove that this game's not going to even have a smidgeon of the depth of any of it's predecessors.



I just really don't understand why this is a Devil May Cry game and not an individual IP or something from Ninja Theory. It really seems like a shot in the foot marketing wise.

True. I'm just a huge goddamn nerd for gameplay mechanics, so when I get going I tend to keep going.

This game might be a Devil May Cry game because of marketing. The party line for these decisions tends to be that established IPs are easier to sell than new ones. I don't know how true that is and I'm also unaware whether or not that accounts for new companies taking on these IPs either. But that all goes out the window if Ninja Theory just wanted to develop a Devil May Cry game to begin with. VV

Jetpack Postman
Jun 30, 2011


Monkey Fracas posted:

I think this is a pretty blatant cash-in. However, I'm not sure how it's going to work. Is DMC really a popular enough IP to warrant attaching it to what should be it's own game to sell more copies? I thought the whole hardcore action game thing was a bit niche, actually.

So if the only people who are "under the brand's power" are those who really love the high skill ceiling anyway, what do they have to gain by attaching the IP to a game with a lackluster combat system? The non-crazy-action people would have an equal chance of buying the game anyway since they don't care about the series, and the fans from before are just going to be pissed off at the changes and have a reduced chance of buying it. I'm probably missing a few things. Maybe I'm reading too much into the scant gameplay evidence that has been released so far.... Maybe DMC4 released with more fanfare than I remember....

It's popular enough to warrant an HD re-release of the initial trilogy. I don't agree that the action sub-genre that DMC belongs to is all that niche, however. Bayonetta sold well more than a million copies worldwide. That's not exactly blockbuster numbers, but still pretty impressive for a Japanese action game about woman who summons demons with her hair.

I don't know how closely Capcom itself worked on the project. They're the publisher of several big releases, so they might've just given Ninja Theory the contract, sent them a few series vets for some advice and let them be on their way. For typical action game standards it looks like a solid (albiet fairly so-so) title with really good graphics and animation, kinda like Heavenly Sword did. That's probably enough for Capcom to feel comfortable with their work, since they've likely seen enough that they know the game isn't going to be a horrible mess. We're all certainly reading a bit much into the little gameplay we've seen and it certainly will affect our purchase decisions, but I'm fairly certain the average fan isn't paying nearly as much attention to the game.

Jetpack Postman
Jun 30, 2011


Rainbow Pony Deluxe posted:

What I'm trying to say is that Audio Cues shouldn't be the only thing to indicate or represent something. Even if I don't hear an enemy, it's still possible to dodge an attack, although much more difficult. That's because they use audio and visual cues. Using sound alone to represent the style meter, which is a very very important part of this game, just does not seem plausible in my eyes. Unless the Audio is literally a reading of your style meter like "Your style meter is going down" or "CRAZYYY!!!!"

Again, assuming that Style in this game is what we're acquainted with. It might simply be just the background music beefing itself up for X amount of time you've gone without getting it, constantly attacking enemies without stopping a-la God of War or Dante's Inferno, or any number of other things. We can't be certain until it's actually demonstrated.

Also enemies usually have very distinct attack behaviors to go with those audio cues. Tons of enemies in Devil May Cry 3 gave visual warnings in the form of either significant wind-up to those attacks or over-exaggerated "Gonna get ya!" poses. But the audio cues are very important, since keeping an ear out for a specific sound effect is a lot easier to do than trying to keep track of all enemies at once. It also means you can dodge without needing to look at those attack, since the actual attack comes X amount of seconds after the cue is played and you don't need to know where the enemy is coming from as long as you know when you should hit jump to avoid it.

Jetpack Postman
Jun 30, 2011


Alteisen posted:

How can you type so many words and not say a goddamn thing.

What a lovely fluff piece.

It becomes infinitely more entertaining when you realize that you can exchange the words "Devil May Cry" and "Dante" with any other franchise and character and you end up with roughly the same arguments, point for point. Add in "Gears of War" and "Marcus Fenix", "Halo" and "Master Chief", or "God of War" and "Kratos" to see what I mean.

Jetpack Postman
Jun 30, 2011


ImpAtom posted:

It looks... okay? It honestly just from the video reminds me a lot more of a God of War/Dante's Inferno style game than a DMC game tho'. The "different weapons" really do just appear to be different attacks instead.

The recent trailers and gameplay have gotten me less cynical about the game than I have been, but I'm on the same boat you are: it just looks okay. The combat so far reminds me a lot Darksiders and Kingdoms of Amalur where you have two different beatsticks assigned to two different buttons to mash out two different types of attacks. Not inherently bad, but not all that remarkable either. I hope there's a bit more to it. Can't say much about the scoring system so far other than it's nice that they included it.

Right now, the game is sitting at a pretty solid "meh" for me. It seems like a typical, competent action game but doesn't look like it's going to offer much to scratch that certain itch the same way DMC1 and 3 are doing in the HD Collection. Which is a bit of a shame, because I could go for another one of those that I don't already know backwards and forwards. Oh well, maybe the social commentary and flashy levels could possibly tip the balance in its favor? Who knows...

Jetpack Postman
Jun 30, 2011


Since I haven't seen it posted yet, I figure I ought to let you dudes know about the recent OXM video preview, done by the same dude that helped sell a lot of folks on Dragon's Dogma. There's a few things he says that should be taken with a grain of salt, but the combat looks pretty solid and there's some interesting ideas at play with the Proud Soul-esque upgrade system that lets you shuffle around "upgrade tokens" so you can mess around with new weapon abilities without necessarily having to buy all of them. I'm not sure how I feel about the amount of enemies that have a shield, though. It seems like an arbitrary thing just to make sure you use the hell out of that grapple mechanic.

The story is still likely going to be a massive poo poo-pile, but between what we've seen with the Vergil trailer and some of the stuff that's coming to light in regards to combat being better than it has been I'm probably going to end up taking the plunge and buying the game. Not like there's anything else coming out in January (I've already imported Anarchy Reigns).

Jetpack Postman
Jun 30, 2011


AccountingNightmare posted:

To the other people who felt the game had input lag, especially with the weapon changes, were you playing the 360 version or the PS3 version? I was playing the PS3 version.

I've had some input lag during my time with the 360 version. It wasn't very often, but I'd have some times when I wouldn't be able to switch between the stances on the fly. I wonder if it just has to do with some weird glitch in the programming, since during those times I wouldn't be able to continue with a combo straight away either, even if I mashed the attack or ranged attack button.

After spending some time with the demo, reading some of the reactions on here and watching that recent stream I'm back to considering giving this game a pass. It plays a lot like God of War with awkward button-holding controls, less interesting enemies and a tacked-on Style system but lacks the impressive environments and light puzzle-solving that help push you toward the next location. The effects are well done, but it does little to disguise the fact that you're simply running from one linear corridor to the next in search of the next lightweight action, platforming or race sequence. Not counting the odd divot that holds a key or door.

That said, I still haven't completely written the game off just yet. I'm curious about how the story of Dante "The Demon Killer (you ugly sack of poo poo)" will end up considering what we've been given in the demo. If it ends up getting worse from there, I'd love to see it and share it.

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Jetpack Postman
Jun 30, 2011


wildzero posted:

Of course Greg Capcomunity is going say he's psyched, isn't he employed by Capcom?

That's very true and I think we get hung up on what he says a bit too much sometimes. He's on Capcom's payroll to manage their message boards and promote their products, so it shouldn't be unexpected that most of what he says is going to be positive towards Capcom no matter what he's talking about. I don't think he straight-up lies about his opinions, either; he knows he has to sell products to people so he probably finds ways to get himself excited about a product before trying to get the hype-train rolling.

That said, he does manage to step in it sometimes. "Devil May Cry of the new generation"? The gently caress? The last "old-style" DMC came out about five years ago and the whole series is barely eleven. I'm fairly certain the "new generation" is the same one that's hung around since DMC3 at the very least.

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