Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us $3,400 per month for bandwidth bills alone, and since we don't believe in shoving popup ads to our registered users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
«87 »
  • Post
  • Reply
StrixNebulosa
Feb 14, 2012

You cheated not only the game, but yourself.
But most of all, you cheated BABA


https://twitter.com/NotBrunoAgain/s...2241494016?s=19

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006


BRB, changing my business cards to read

Cyrano4747, PhD
Loremaster

Disinterested
Jun 29, 2011

You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

Master of the Ancient Egyptian Sperm Glyph Lore

The Glumslinger
Sep 24, 2008

Coach Nagy, you want me to throw to WHAT side of the field?




Hair Elf


Go read a book listen to a podcast

Dapper_Swindler
Feb 14, 2012

Shitposting 24/7 without regrets. my parents would be proud.



i mean lol, but honestly same. if some series i like does a event/time period thats interesting. i will read about it.

hell one of the reasons i like games/media with deep lore is because i am a history nerd.

Look Sir Droids
Jan 27, 2015

The tracks go off in this direction.

I asked about the Byzantine Empire because of Crusader Kings 2.

StrixNebulosa
Feb 14, 2012

You cheated not only the game, but yourself.
But most of all, you cheated BABA


Dapper_Swindler posted:

i mean lol, but honestly same. if some series i like does a event/time period thats interesting. i will read about it.

hell one of the reasons i like games/media with deep lore is because i am a history nerd.

I know about Egypt now specifically because of AssCreed Origins. The Rise and Fall of Ancient Egypt by Toby Wilkinson was the tome I tackled because of that game.

Kaiser Schnitzel
Mar 28, 2006

Schnitzel mit uns






Look Sir Droids posted:

I asked about the Byzantine Empire because of Crusader Kings 2.
EU IV and my interest in 17th-18thc European history are sort of self reinforcing habits, and how else would I ever learn about Dithmarsch or Guelders or the Livonian Order?

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006


Not gonna lie, CK2 got me to read a solid handful of books on wtf was going on in Germany between Charlemagne and the HRE.

stealie72
Jan 10, 2007

Their eyes locked and suddenly there was the sound of breaking glass.


Dapper_Swindler posted:

i mean lol, but honestly same. if some series i like does a event/time period thats interesting. i will read about it.

hell one of the reasons i like games/media with deep lore is because i am a history nerd.
Ask me about annoying my wife by rabbit holing the people and events going on on the TV while she watches the Crown.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



Look Sir Droids posted:

I asked about the Byzantine Empire because of Crusader Kings 2.

I didn't know Songhai existed until I played Civ5.

Punkin Spunkin
Jan 1, 2010

Catching up to god quicker



I learned what showers are from The Sims

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012




I guess I have a bachelor's of lore?

stealie72
Jan 10, 2007

Their eyes locked and suddenly there was the sound of breaking glass.


Minenfeld! posted:

I guess I have a bachelor's of lore?
I used AP American lore and AP European lore credits to help graduate early with a political science degree.

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012




Smart move even if you had to pay to take the lore exams.

stealie72
Jan 10, 2007

Their eyes locked and suddenly there was the sound of breaking glass.


Yeah, it just came naturally. I have always loved lore. I was that nerdy kid that liked to go to the lore museum, and was the only one in my class who liked field trips to the lore village. The blacksmith there was super cool.

Dapper_Swindler
Feb 14, 2012

Shitposting 24/7 without regrets. my parents would be proud.


Minenfeld! posted:

I guess I have a bachelor's of lore?

same. pissed away my BA and probably my possible future masters on it too. to bad it doesnt get good jobs.


Deptfordx posted:

If you're ok with podcasts "The British History Podcast" is very highly regarded and extremely comprehensive.

ill give it a shot but any books. outside a cheap Ben thomas pop history book for teens, i havent had much luck.

Mantis42
Jul 26, 2010



personally I only have time for audio grimoires anymore

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006


stealie72 posted:

I used AP American lore and AP European lore credits to help graduate early with a political science degree.

This explains your posting lore.

stealie72
Jan 10, 2007

Their eyes locked and suddenly there was the sound of breaking glass.


Cyrano4747 posted:

This explains your posting lore.
Look pal, just because you've got a lore PhD...

I've got nuthin

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006


stealie72 posted:

Look pal, just because you've got a lore PhD...

I've got nuthin

I just wanted to make a posting lore joke

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

Jozy loves scoring like a fat kid loves eating cake.



College Slice

*social historian kramers into the thread*
actuallly I'll have you know my research is not lore, it's data

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006


vyelkin posted:

*social historian kramers into the thread*
actuallly I'll have you know my research is not lore, it's data

It's all Soong-type in the end, isn't it?

I have been waiting a day to figure out a joke in this vein

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?




Cyrano4747 posted:

It's all Soong-type in the end, isn't it?

I have been waiting a day to figure out a joke in this vein

This is the post you should've probated yourself for.

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

Yes, it's like a lava lamp.



Anyone have good English language recommendations about the political history of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania? Particularly the early centuries, from the initial consolidation and expansion in the 13th century, up to the Union of Lublin?

Pick
Jul 19, 2009


Nap Ghost

Hello, history book thread. Currently, monarchism has become a popular political stance in the doomsday economics thread. But I don't agree with the monarchy or the divine right of kings and I would like it to not be re-instituted. Can anyone give me some good recommendations for books that cover particularly bad monarchs, so that I can approach their perspective from a more informed place?

Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 9, 2007

Aloy, Despite the Nora


Pick posted:

Hello, history book thread. Currently, monarchism has become a popular political stance in the doomsday economics thread. But I don't agree with the monarchy or the divine right of kings and I would like it to not be re-instituted. Can anyone give me some good recommendations for books that cover particularly bad monarchs, so that I can approach their perspective from a more informed place?

Come again?

Pick
Jul 19, 2009


Nap Ghost

I'd like to have a strong argument to combat views like these:

Tunicate posted:

monarchy is the last resort of the normal, average person. Monarchs are selected by random accidents of birth, while our current political process instead selects for the most sociopathic backstabbers.

But I mostly only read political history that is more recent than the monarchy, or I should say, substantial political power held by an absolute monarch. So I would appreciate learning more.

E: also, I'm suddenly realizing I forgot to list off the shipwreck books somebody requested! I'll get to that once I get home.

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

Yes, it's like a lava lamp.



Pick posted:

Hello, history book thread. Currently, monarchism has become a popular political stance in the doomsday economics thread. But I don't agree with the monarchy or the divine right of kings and I would like it to not be re-instituted. Can anyone give me some good recommendations for books that cover particularly bad monarchs, so that I can approach their perspective from a more informed place?

Check out something on the latter stages of the Hundred Years War if you want some interesting, accessible monarch stories. The French side has Charles the VI, who inherits the throne at age 11, has all of his uncles financially ruin the Kingdom during their regency, then develops recurring bouts of mental illnesses, during the first of which his various relatives kick off a full blown civil war over control of the government.

On the English side you have a highly effective and centralized monarchy, that upon the accession of Henry VI finds itself with a king 9 months old. Without an effective monarch at the helm, the government slowly began eating itself, and by the time he's in his thirties (and also suffering various sorts of mental illness) England descends into - you guessed it - full blown civil war over control of the government.

Look Sir Droids
Jan 27, 2015

The tracks go off in this direction.

Pick posted:

I'd like to have a strong argument to combat views like these:


You'll never be able to combat views like that because that person is impervious to reason and likely knows less than you do about monarchy as a form of government or in practice.

As for your original question, what do you mean by bad monarch? Bad as in a murderous tyrant? Bad as in a poor steward of the country? What do you need them to be bad at for your arguments with people that refuse to be convinced?

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?




Monarchs, famous for never being power-hungry backstabbing sociopaths.

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

Yes, it's like a lava lamp.



Grand Fromage posted:

Monarchs, famous for never being power-hungry backstabbing sociopaths.

Hello, my name is Ivan Grozny. I believe you have a letter for me.

Class Warcraft
Apr 27, 2006

History has shown us that the love of power will always exceed the power of love. Plan accordingly.


Pick posted:

I'd like to have a strong argument to combat views like these:


But I mostly only read political history that is more recent than the monarchy, or I should say, substantial political power held by an absolute monarch. So I would appreciate learning more.

E: also, I'm suddenly realizing I forgot to list off the shipwreck books somebody requested! I'll get to that once I get home.

Just show them a picture of the Hapsburg family tree with portraits. I showed it to my 8th graders to illustrate the downsides of hereditary monarchy and they immediately grasped the implications of allowing anyone that inbred into power.

For book recommendations The March of Folly by Barbara Tuchman is not just about monarchies but about how people in power come to make incredibly idiotic decisions and is very interesting. That might fit the bill.

Bilirubin
Feb 16, 2014

The sanctioned action is to CHUG!!!




Bleak Gremlin

It might be the weed but what strange turn has the thread taken I can't really parse it

Pick
Jul 19, 2009


Nap Ghost

Bilirubin posted:

It might be the weed but what strange turn has the thread taken I can't really parse it

I think the monarchy is bad, but I'm not that experienced with the monarchy (much less absolute monarchy) because I mostly read history books that are like 1850 onward. So when someone says you can outflank from the left with the divine right of kings, there are some obvious dunks but I don't have the same kind of specifics I would if it were about an era I know better. But now that it's piqued my interest I'm happy to learn more and solicit some recommendations.


But as earlier promised--shipwreck books!

I already mentioned Batavia's Graveyard, my personal gold standard. (I love Mike Dash.) For short and sweet, Narratives of the Wreck of the Whale-Ship Essex is as advertised: firsthand accounts of being aboard a whaling vessel that the whale capsized. Men in the lifeboat did, in fact, draw lots--so that is not a fictional phenomenon. Wreck of the Medusa by Alexander McKee is all right, but I've never found a book that sufficiently focuses on the Medusa and its raft per se. However, the Medusa is also amazing to me because people did not wait around before they started doing various atrocities. Dead Wake is something everyone and their cat has read, about the Lusitania, but I thought it was as good as I've ever read about it, so why go obscure? (Same with Endurance: Shackleton's Incredible Voyage for the Endurance, Shakleton's ship.) Island of the Lost is another favorite, really about two shipwrecks, that were so, so similar but... ended very, very differently. Basically an examination of what will really save you in a pinch. Shadow Divers is more about exploring a wreck than the U-boat as such but hell, if you're into boats with corpses on them, this is that. Into the Raging Sea about the El Faro. There, there's some shipwreck books. I'm forgetting some since they're not on my shelf because my mom is bored, bored enough to raid my bookshelves, so they're all swiss-cheese'd at the moment.

e: I've still got a bookmark partway through Every Man Will Do His Duty about the Royal Navy by Dean King and it seems all right as well. But none of the ships are wrecking particularly.

Pick fucked around with this message at 06:30 on May 28, 2020

Pick
Jul 19, 2009


Nap Ghost

Thanks everyone for your responses! March of Folly is on the shortlist, and these topics look stellar:

PittTheElder posted:

Check out something on the latter stages of the Hundred Years War if you want some interesting, accessible monarch stories. The French side has Charles the VI, who inherits the throne at age 11, has all of his uncles financially ruin the Kingdom during their regency, then develops recurring bouts of mental illnesses, during the first of which his various relatives kick off a full blown civil war over control of the government.

On the English side you have a highly effective and centralized monarchy, that upon the accession of Henry VI finds itself with a king 9 months old. Without an effective monarch at the helm, the government slowly began eating itself, and by the time he's in his thirties (and also suffering various sorts of mental illness) England descends into - you guessed it - full blown civil war over control of the government.

(So if anyone has any recommendations for that period, specifically, let me know, otherwise I'll just poke around and try to find some applicable titles.) I have definitely meant to learn more about the Hundred Years War, since it's one of those "wars I know of but know little about", and last time I dove into one of those I hit the jackpot with the Boer wars, which I found really... astonishing.

Look Sir Droids posted:

As for your original question, what do you mean by bad monarch? Bad as in a murderous tyrant? Bad as in a poor steward of the country? What do you need them to be bad at for your arguments with people that refuse to be convinced?

Honestly, mostly bad as in a bad steward of the country, not so much a "bad person" although one could argue those can overlap a decent amount anyway.

I never really expect anyone to be convinced as such, but I like to scoff from a place of at least some information and I'm just realizing that I have been lax in learning history outside of my relative comfort zones.

A human heart
Oct 10, 2012



why do you want to argue sincerely with total clowns with nonsense views. like you don't need an argument you can just start laughing at the dude who wants to reinstate the divine right of kings

Pick
Jul 19, 2009


Nap Ghost

I don't really, I would just like to be confident that I'm informed enough I could have, and then also it gives me an excuse to check out a topic where my historical knowledge is deficient. I did make some lazy dunks, but for my own self-satisfaction I would like to be knowledgeable enough that I could have constructed a more thorough one. I mean, it's that or more shipwrecks, so why not?

E: I can, for example, make a very good argument for why you would not want to be on a vessel that had drawn the attention of a really angry and persistent whale.

Pick fucked around with this message at 06:49 on May 28, 2020

Fighting Trousers
May 17, 2011

Does this excite you, girl?


Tell them to read Common Sense. Thomas Paine does a pretty good job obliterating the idea of heredity monarchy.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Disinterested
Jun 29, 2011

You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

There's ongoing contemporary commentary throughout history as well on the hazards of monarchy, even during historical periods we associate most strongly with monarchy.

In Plato you see the philosopher king as ideal but there's clear awareness of the risks of tyrants and a clear design for the kingship to be non-hereditary.

In Aristotle it's apparent that kingship has a huge risk of becoming tyranny and that monarchical modes of government limit the opportunities for human flourishing derived from the shared participation in government. And besides, if you think the people best fitted to rule should rule, what are the chances that one person so much surpasses everyone else in virtue that they should be in charge?

Cicero sees the same risks as Aristotle that monarchy will just always tend to turn in to tyranny, so you see this embrace of the idea of mixed government that occurs in Polybius and originates in Aristotle. And besides, even though Rome becomes an empire, the Roman concept of freedom depends upon the idea of the individual as the giver of their own law.

After Aquinas and the rediscovery of Aristotle, you see the development of concepts of popular sovereignty as in Marsilius of Padua's defensor pacis, but there's always clear concern in medieval political writing before that about how to constrain tyrannical monarchy. Aquinas is very clear, for example, that you have huge rights of resistance to tyrannical government.

What I'm getting at is even people not named Hobbes who supported the idea of monarchy in general in history saw that it, at a bare minimum, turned in to tyranny at a moment's notice. Virtually every major commentator has thought at a minimum there needed to be some form of popular or elite representation in government to balance the constitution or strong ethical and legal standards that hold monarchy to account at risk of rebellion. We got done with this mode of government for a reason.

Disinterested fucked around with this message at 11:31 on May 28, 2020

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply
«87 »