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JaneError
Feb 4, 2016

how would i even breathe on the moon?

For anyone interested in Viking history, I'm about a third of the way through Children of Ash and Elm by Neil Price and it's great so far--wide-ranging and informative without being dense or dry. It's being released officially next week but I got a free electronic copy through NetGalley, so it might be worth looking into if you have an account.

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ketchup vs catsup
Nov 30, 2006



If I want to read 1-5 books about the history of labor unions / the labor movement, what should I read?

MRC48B
Apr 2, 2012



From the Folks Who Brought You the Weekend: A Short, Illustrated History of Labor in the United States by Priscilla Murolo

Confession: have not read, its on my list

PatMarshall
Apr 6, 2009



America specific, but There is Power in a Union by Dray was good.

FMguru
Sep 10, 2003

peed on;
sexually

A History of American In Ten Strikes by labor historian Erik Loomis: https://thenewpress.com/books/histo...ica-ten-strikes

StrixNebulosa
Feb 14, 2012

You cheated not only the game, but yourself.
But most of all, you cheated BABA



ketchup vs catsup posted:

If I want to read 1-5 books about the history of labor unions / the labor movement, what should I read?

The Making of the English Working Class
by E.P. Thompson

Recced in this very thread to me as a "feel good book if you have a long view", and it's a chonker but worth the effort.

Bilirubin
Feb 16, 2014

The sanctioned action is to CHUG!!!




Bleak Gremlin

Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States goes into the subject as well

Chairman Capone
Dec 17, 2008



StrixNebulosa posted:

The Making of the English Working Class
by E.P. Thompson

Recced in this very thread to me as a "feel good book if you have a long view", and it's a chonker but worth the effort.

Absolutely. Plus there's a podcast, Casualties of History, which is covering it chapter by chapter so you can have a companion to slogging through it.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



StrixNebulosa posted:

The Making of the English Working Class
by E.P. Thompson

Recced in this very thread to me as a "feel good book if you have a long view", and it's a chonker but worth the effort.

Thirding this. It's basically required reading in most graduate programs because of how influential it was. It's an absolute classic and is massively important in the major social history turn that happened in the 70s and 80s.

There are bits you can disagree with and criticisms you can make of it. It's still really good from the standpoint of wanting to learn about that particular part of history. If you're into history as a craft it's also important in a historiographical sense.

ketchup vs catsup
Nov 30, 2006



Thanks, everyone! I'll gather those and get started.

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012





Cyrano4747 posted:

Thirding this. It's basically required reading in most graduate programs because of how influential it was. It's an absolute classic and is massively important in the major social history turn that happened in the 70s and 80s.

There are bits you can disagree with and criticisms you can make of it. It's still really good from the standpoint of wanting to learn about that particular part of history. If you're into history as a craft it's also important in a historiographical sense.

Excerpts of it were assigned years ago when I was taking History 101 as an undergrad.

Dreylad
Jun 19, 2001


Rimusutera posted:


another edit: trying to find more stuff specific to Louis Riel and the Red River & North-West Rebellions, gotta ask a friend there.

I finished and can recommend The Northwest Is Our Mother by Jean Teillet

Vasukhani
Jan 13, 2019

fish for the fish god

Cyrano4747 posted:

edit: I've got something tickling the back of my head about a book on German bicycle clubs in the late 19th century? And becoming a nexus for working class politics but I think it might also have what I'm looking for or at least a few good bibliographical hits. Ugh, maybe it was an article.

The Nazi Seizure of Power goes extensively into this, albeit for being a nexus of nazism

Mantis42
Jul 26, 2010



I finished Reaganland earlier this week (I highly recommend it) and was wondering if there were any good books about the 80s and 90s American political history.

FMguru
Sep 10, 2003

peed on;
sexually

Mantis42 posted:

I finished Reaganland earlier this week (I highly recommend it) and was wondering if there were any good books about the 80s and 90s American political history.
The Clothes Have No Emperor by Paul Slansky is the best history of 1980s America.

It's just a collection of events, organized by calendar date, tracking the batshittery of the Reagan administration (with a number of asides about culture and celebrity and world events).

withak
Jan 15, 2003


Fun Shoe

FMguru posted:

The Clothes Have No Emperor by Paul Slansky is the best history of 1980s America.

It's just a collection of events, organized by calendar date, tracking the batshittery of the Reagan administration (with a number of asides about culture and celebrity and world events).

Seconding this.

In 2026 they are going to make the sequel by just pulling up Donald Trump's twitter page and hitting "print."

EoinCannon
Aug 29, 2008



Grimey Drawer

Mantis42 posted:

I finished Reaganland earlier this week (I highly recommend it) and was wondering if there were any good books about the 80s and 90s American political history.

I really want to read this but it seems that Amazon isn't selling the ebook in Australia yet.

Just finishing Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World by Jack Weatherford
I've enjoyed it, as someone who knew next to nothing about the era it's accessible and kind of dovetails in an interesting way with the black death reading I've been doing. It covers more or less through to the death of Khubilai.

Vasukhani
Jan 13, 2019

fish for the fish god

EoinCannon posted:

I really want to read this but it seems that Amazon isn't selling the ebook in Australia yet.

Just finishing Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World by Jack Weatherford
I've enjoyed it, as someone who knew next to nothing about the era it's accessible and kind of dovetails in an interesting way with the black death reading I've been doing. It covers more or less through to the death of Khubilai.

I thought the beginning of this was good, plus the stuff about the creation of Mongolian identity/Soviet-Khan relations. Kinda lost interest after Genghis died though. Good book to read with the recent "cancelation" of him on twitter lol.

MeatwadIsGod
Sep 30, 2004

Behold! It is I! I bestow upon you...my dirty dipey!


Vasukhani posted:

Good book to read with the recent "cancelation" of him on twitter lol.

what

Take the plunge! Okay!
Feb 24, 2007



Genghis is canceled

EoinCannon
Aug 29, 2008



Grimey Drawer


Some hindu nationalist started ranting crazy poo poo on twitter a while back iirc

Just mad that Genghis solved middle ages war and kicked everyone's asses

Epicurius
Apr 10, 2010


College Slice

EoinCannon posted:

Some hindu nationalist started ranting crazy poo poo on twitter a while back iirc

Just mad that Genghis solved middle ages war and kicked everyone's asses

It wasn't really ranting. They basically just said that even though people can think what they want, it's weird that people think of him as a hero when he killed about 11% of the world's population.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Epicurius posted:

It wasn't really ranting. They basically just said that even though people can think what they want, it's weird that people think of him as a hero when he killed about 11% of the world's population.

Sources for the 11% figure? I see it tossed around occasionally, but never with a real citation.

But I agree with the broader point. He's often defended on the grounds that he did basically the same things as Alexander the Great on a larger scale and more successfully, but even if that's true, it's more an argument against Alexander (and Napoleon, Oda Nobunaga, etc.) than in favor of Genghis.

Epicurius
Apr 10, 2010


College Slice

Silver2195 posted:

Sources for the 11% figure? I see it tossed around occasionally, but never with a real citation.

But I agree with the broader point. He's often defended on the grounds that he did basically the same things as Alexander the Great on a larger scale and more successfully, but even if that's true, it's more an argument against Alexander (and Napoleon, Oda Nobunaga, etc.) than in favor of Genghis.

That was the tweet's claim, but Frank McLynn, in Genghis Khan: His Conquests, His Empire, His Legacy, puts the total number of deaths from his wars at 37.5 million, about 30 million in China, and other people have made estimates up to 40 million or more (a lot of it depends on how many people you think lived in medieval Iran, and how reliable you think Persian casualty estimates are. McLynn downplays them). Estimates of world population from around 1200 range from 360-400 million.

So, taking McLynn's numbers, which are again, conservative, that has him killing between 9.3-10.4% of the population of the world. If you go with the more accepted 40 million estimate, it's 10-11%

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Epicurius posted:

That was the tweet's claim, but Frank McLynn, in Genghis Khan: His Conquests, His Empire, His Legacy, puts the total number of deaths from his wars at 37.5 million, about 30 million in China, and other people have made estimates up to 40 million or more (a lot of it depends on how many people you think lived in medieval Iran, and how reliable you think Persian casualty estimates are. McLynn downplays them). Estimates of world population from around 1200 range from 360-400 million.

So, taking McLynn's numbers, which are again, conservative, that has him killing between 9.3-10.4% of the population of the world. If you go with the more accepted 40 million estimate, it's 10-11%

Thanks.

Mantis42
Jul 26, 2010



People just need to understand that being badass and being good are separate qualities. Genghis Khan is like Walter White: cool but a baddie. People like to compare him to Hitler but Hitler relied on vast industrial machinery to kill millions whereas Genghis killed people personally. It's the difference between a drone operator and John Wick. That's why Hitler is both bad and uncool.

Hope that clears it up.

Ras Het
May 23, 2007

when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child - but now I am a man.


Epicurius posted:

That was the tweet's claim, but Frank McLynn, in Genghis Khan: His Conquests, His Empire, His Legacy, puts the total number of deaths from his wars at 37.5 million, about 30 million in China, and other people have made estimates up to 40 million or more (a lot of it depends on how many people you think lived in medieval Iran, and how reliable you think Persian casualty estimates are. McLynn downplays them). Estimates of world population from around 1200 range from 360-400 million.

So, taking McLynn's numbers, which are again, conservative, that has him killing between 9.3-10.4% of the population of the world. If you go with the more accepted 40 million estimate, it's 10-11%

Fwiw McLynn is a popular biographer and not an expert on the specific issue. I've only read his book on Richard Burton and thought it was inane psychoanalytic garbage

Epicurius
Apr 10, 2010


College Slice

Ras Het posted:

Fwiw McLynn is a popular biographer and not an expert on the specific issue. I've only read his book on Richard Burton and thought it was inane psychoanalytic garbage

I'm pretty sure the 40 million estimate is pretty common, though. Almost everyone agrees on 30 million in China. The question is how many people died in Afghanistan and the Middle East.

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?




EoinCannon posted:

Some hindu nationalist started ranting crazy poo poo on twitter a while back iirc

It wasn't crazy, it was just a hilarious "Did you know that Genghis Khan actually KILLED people???" post like she'd just opened a history book for the first time. And posted a few stories of his cruelty that are dubious. Then people went wild with the jokes and it was lots of fun.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Mantis42 posted:

People just need to understand that being badass and being good are separate qualities. Genghis Khan is like Walter White: cool but a baddie. People like to compare him to Hitler but Hitler relied on vast industrial machinery to kill millions whereas Genghis killed people personally. It's the difference between a drone operator and John Wick. That's why Hitler is both bad and uncool.

Hope that clears it up.

I would argue that there is a substantive difference between Genghis and Hitler in that with Hitler it was explicitly a project to purge his society of people he didn't like for ethnic, religious, eugenic, etc. reasons. My understanding of Genghis is that he used killing as a terror tactic and to crush resistance, rather than because he wanted all <insert ethnic group here> to be purged from the face of the earth.

Does it matter to the person being killed? Probably not, but it's part of what gives the genocidal crimes of the 20th century their particular flavor of horror.

Dapper_Swindler
Feb 14, 2012

Shitposting 24/7 without regrets. my parents would be proud.


Cyrano4747 posted:

I would argue that there is a substantive difference between Genghis and Hitler in that with Hitler it was explicitly a project to purge his society of people he didn't like for ethnic, religious, eugenic, etc. reasons. My understanding of Genghis is that he used killing as a terror tactic and to crush resistance, rather than because he wanted all <insert ethnic group here> to be purged from the face of the earth.

Does it matter to the person being killed? Probably not, but it's part of what gives the genocidal crimes of the 20th century their particular flavor of horror.

I have personally always liked kublai more because he was an actual pretty good ruler for a Chinese dynasty and reformer and stuff. he is an interesting figure of a foreign king doing an actual good job. Genghis was super conqueror with "protomodern" sense of governing and such. he was still a brutal brutal mother fucker. he just didn't, he just had a good off switch as long as you bent the knee.

Vasukhani
Jan 13, 2019

fish for the fish god

Ghengis Khan/The Mongols basically always offered fair terms to whomever he was killing. The insane acts of cruelty were usually precipitated by acts of cruelty from the other side. When they invaded Kyiv they offered fair terms, only to have their diplomatic envoys killed and their bodies displayed. His actions and the actions of his successors were simply the result of successful warfare in a world without the Geneva convention. Nationalists get upset because it ruins the perception of their eternal bastion of civilization when "their nation" is defeated by tribal people.

EoinCannon
Aug 29, 2008



Grimey Drawer

Thanks for the information, turns out I didn't remember it correctly

Take the plunge! Okay!
Feb 24, 2007



A readable overview of the Thirty Years War? It can be long, as long as it is not dry.

glynnenstein
Feb 18, 2014



Take the plunge! Okay! posted:

A readable overview of the Thirty Years War? It can be long, as long as it is not dry.

The Peter Wilson book on the Thirty-Years War is extremely readable and nicely written, though it is certainly not a short book.

SubG
Aug 19, 2004

It's a hard world for little things.


Take the plunge! Okay! posted:

A readable overview of the Thirty Years War? It can be long, as long as it is not dry.
Wilson's The Thirty Years War: Europe's Tragedy is the current consensus pick for a single volume on the subject.

edit: efb, so I'll throw out Wedgwood's book as well, which I believe is out of fashion now, but was long considered the classic book on the subject. Originally published in the '30s, the writing is a bit more turgid than more recent narrative histories, but I still like it purely from a literary standpoint.

SubG fucked around with this message at 13:23 on Sep 1, 2020

Take the plunge! Okay!
Feb 24, 2007



Thanks, Iím getting Wilson as the starting point

e: no I'm not, the Kindle edition is not available and Amazon wants $81 for shipping, gently caress that

e2: It's actually available under the title Europe's Tragedy, yay

Take the plunge! Okay! fucked around with this message at 13:45 on Sep 1, 2020

Crini
Sep 2, 2011


Are there any decent histories out there on the US invasions of Grenada in 1983 (Operation Urgent Fury) or Panama in 1989 (Operation Just Cause)?

I realize they were both really short military actions. With Grenada everything that went wrong is probably more interesting than the military actions themselves. Panama probably has a more interesting build up period with the US involvement in both the country and the government and then the immediate lead up to military action. Plus the whole deal with Noriega in the Vatican Embasssy.

np19
Dec 25, 2016


I just finished The Making of The Atomic Bomb. It was excellent. Are Richard Rhodes other works as good? Also, apparently I got the 25th anniversary and am missing an entire ending chapter that describes what happened after the dropping of the bombs.

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Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?




np19 posted:

I just finished The Making of The Atomic Bomb. It was excellent. Are Richard Rhodes other works as good? Also, apparently I got the 25th anniversary and am missing an entire ending chapter that describes what happened after the dropping of the bombs.

I thought Dark Sun was a lot more fun. It's more of a spy story.

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