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IIRC That guy is the PR guy and a designer Ravidrath.
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Jan 4, 2012 22:40
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Health is a perfectly good mechanism for game balance. The problem is laziness in use. Capcom has been riding it as a crutch lately really hard. Edit: However, I really wish fighters would do something like simply use a flat number and also display it, it's kind of confusing to newer players and it's not very accurate feeling when it's variable and all you have to go on is a bar that isn't wholly representative of the actual number internally. Mio Bison posted:OTOH Millia had a significantly better defense rating (which is to say second-worst) in every revision but Chipp had higher guts. I don't know who has less "health" if you theorycraft it out but the moral of the story is don't get guard jacked and counter-hit with either pixie holy gently caress. Chipp died sooner. I think guts is stupid, even if it has a few minutiae associated with it that are slightly positive for balancing. I'm not even 100% totally sure on it, because I'm not exactly great at math. anime was right fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Jan 8, 2012 |
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Jan 8, 2012 03:08
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Okay time to bust out some design mumbo jumbo I guess: Health is not a bad balance mechanic. It is, in most situations, a more complex and sometimes inelegant one. It is also generally misused as a way to fix balance in a lazy way (see: recent Capcom games). I'll argue with both mechanics and expectations. First of all, let's open up Dhalsim. This character is generally a low damage character. Why is this interesting? He has high amounts of screen control. The tradeoff here is he does low damage. Characters have to create opportunities to defeat him and thus the other player has to sacrifice health to get there. That's what makes Dhalsim matchups interesting, there's the other player has to force an opportunity but they get a lot of chances to do so. This is cool and way different than how most characters operate. So why is it wrong when this is a consistent flavor? If a character has to do this (Zangief, for example), they can do things that other players cannot because they have extra health. They can attempt these same kind of attempts to force opportunity. Essentially, Zangief's health creates Dhalsim style matchups which fits the flavor of his character. He's a binary character that attempts to open the other player up through repeated assaults using a simpler and toolset that exhibits less control. When he gets in, it's similar to Ryu vs Sim when he's fighting a more average character type. What you're doing here is giving a character a simpler toolset, or a toolset with less overall control or nuanced control for game variety. Simple dudes with lots of health have to attack problems in way different ways than average dudes with average health. Varied health totals create variety. Lets also go with expectation: When you pick a big dude who looks like a tank, you will have two expectations (disregard character specific details here which can create different interactions). When I pick Tager, or Zangief, I look like a huge dude that can get punched in the face 120000 times and not fall over. When gameplay meets expectation, it's satisfying. This is why Sagat originally had a ridiculous health total, along with Sentinel. When you picked these dudes, you pretty much want to A) Not die B) Punch dudes really hard. This is fun. This is satisfying. When I pick that dude I am getting what I wanted when I picked that dude. When you do this, it's fun! And games are supposed to be fun last time I checked. Health totals are totally justifiable. They do add complexity and make the games harder to understand if you're new. Since you had to estimate health totals based off the character you're fighting against, and this makes guessing this kind of thing more complex since there's now different variables you have to account for and so you may even make mistakes since you don't have the whole story. This isn't very fun, but this is a very solvable problem no developers really want to do. If you're just going to roll with a static healthbar that doesn't give the player any input on health differences, yeah, static health isn't bad. Static health isn't really that bad as a whole either, it is simply a choice a designer can make. There's no "this is better than that" here. They're both good for different reasons. One has less complexity, the other allows for more interesting interactions and makes characters feel more unique.
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Jan 8, 2012 03:42
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Oh and yeah that's another thing this game already has health and damage variables, adding more would be confusing as all hell. Forgot about that.
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Jan 8, 2012 04:01
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Arguing misuse (which I deliberately pointed out) as an example as a fallacy in that specific design space is pretty dishonest dude. I actually think that SF4 is very close to actually being a good example of health variables in AE2012. I don't think the game is that fun or anything but the health totals for someone like Sim and Gief both meet expectations and create the gameplay I described. Giving high health characters "more tries" is what makes it interesting if you make toolsets around it. Zangief is wholly a character of opportunity. There's an ancient article where Viscant actually gives a deliberate play by play of a calculated risk he took specifically because he had Zangief's healthbar. Notably he set his opponents expectations through sacrificing health and then using a shortjump (Zangief glitch where he jumps a few pixels shorter), to make a tiger uppercut whiff and put himself in prime positioning after a punish. What makes this line of reasoning interesting is he can afford to do this because he plays a higher health character. You are given freedoms to take these kinds of interesting gambits. Viscant even went out saying that he would not have done this if he did not have the health Zangief has. While I'm not trying to make an appeal to authority argument here, when one of the genuinely smartest people when it comes to the US fighting game scene says that, there's an example of why it matters and an address to your statement of "if zangief could get hit -yet- gain an advantage..."
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Jan 8, 2012 04:16
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Zangief is an opportunity character. His entire design relies around sacrificing health for information, taking chances, and overcoming his otherwise more limited toolset which when pitted against a more varied toolset, makes for interesting interactions and varied play. Adding health is adding a versatile and useful tool to a character. What you're doing is looking at health as something independent of the character's toolset, when it is in fact a part of it. Think about it more. Forcing opportunity has a cost. With limited tools you have less chances to force opportunity. When you create a character with a slightly more limited or toolset focused in a specific manner, adding more health makes for more varied interactions and also allows you to meet expectations. You can throw more tools on a character with high defense then nerf their defense, but then you're losing an opportunity for a different kind of variety. To use a very simplified argument here: When you give Zangief more tools as an example you end up with more Abels and Alexs, which need lower health or they'd be totally broken. When you do somethign like what you did with Zangief, you can now afford to have both an Abel and a Zangief. You still haven't argued against expectations, which are very important and add a lot to a character's feel. It's pretty hidden I will admit, but there are so many hidden things that players just do not really give a lot of look into that really make good games different from bad ones. This is one of them. Look at Melty Blood, it's pretty much impossible to tell who the hell does what in that game by looking at the characters except maybe Nero and Shiki or whatever that dude with the knife is. The characters don't represent gameplay at all, this isn't satisfying.
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Jan 8, 2012 04:51
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Gutcruncher posted:IIRC Guilty Gear XXs final boss stage was some ridiculous motion sickness creating confusing to look at floorless piece of poo poo, but they had the sense to make it not come up in random select. Would that have been so hard, SNK?! The reason it's banned is because of colorblind people and not being able to judge corners easily. The final boss stage in GG is terrible if you're the least bit colorblind haha. There's more to it than being ugly and floorless.
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Jan 11, 2012 07:30
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Jmcrofts posted:SF3. Quite a few input things are modeled after 3S (input, throw tech, and reversal windows). Is there low tech then? Edit: Or the million other OSes associated with 3S's throw system (jump tech is also one).
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Jan 11, 2012 21:56
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dat fukkin dog!! posted:Theres another blazblue iteration, the persona fighter, the zybourne clock fighitng game?? I dunno thats all I got. I don't think any of these really fit the bill.
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Jan 14, 2012 10:21
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Tokyo Slutty Gal posted:Not really, it's more so they can go crazy with the flexibility offered by the combo system + custom assists and not have to worry about it. I'm struggling to think of a game-ruining infinite combo in a game that wasn't already obviously trash to begin with. Sengoku Basara X maybe? SamSho IV? Slayer in GGXX was pretty close to this. GGX kind of counts too (between FDC and Mist Loop, which is kind of infinite-y even though its not a combo, FDC infinites were still really unhealthy). I think Slayer might be the worst though, he managed to overshadow the most overpowered version of Eddie...
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Jan 25, 2012 01:11
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Liar Lyre posted:Nobody knows what's first with dlc. I heard Squiggly, Umbrella, LeDuc, Panzerfaust, Marie/Double, and even a character no one has seen named Beowulf, a wrestler who uses a steel chair. I've seen concept art for Beowulf but it's ancient. I'm still wondering if it would be cool to release details of old Skullgirls info, like the 2 versions that didn't get made. I'll ask Alex and Mike some day.
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Feb 9, 2012 06:31
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Jmcrofts posted:Cerebella is super badass but she's been nerfed pretty much constantly over time because she used to be really crazy good. She's still awesome but she's reasonable now. She also loses pretty hard to peacock IMO because she can't get in very well at all. Do you think this has to do more with the game's level of discovery and inherent ease rather than actual power? Grapplers tend to dominate every game early.
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Feb 11, 2012 07:58
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To summarize for those who missed it: She's like a nun that turns into some weird shapeshifting thing. When she does attacks, it's just the animations of other characters (c.MK from Parasoul, airdash attack thing from Cerebella). So most of her attacks don't have animations unique to her. Her movement had unique animations at least.
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Feb 17, 2012 07:25
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Mick Z and Jmcrafts are probably the worst posters on SRK. I don't know why they pretend to know things about the game :/
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Feb 25, 2012 18:26
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Dizz posted:Do 2d games usually have that much of a problem though? I could see how Developers might want to create a game like Skyrim on a console first and port it to PC though. Skullgirls pretty much pushes the hardware to its limits. I'm certain it's due to memory constraints more than anything. I think MikeZ even said that the game can actually only run because it's not on a disc, since it doesn't need to load data from the disc, and instead the harddrive, it can get data at a speed that might be reasonable. I assume this means that data is being loaded mid match, meaning that there's not enough memory to house all of the graphics data (ie sprites) at once. anime was right fucked around with this message at 13:34 on Mar 4, 2012 |
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Mar 4, 2012 13:31
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Fez just passed certification. Before Skullgirls. Meaning it will probably be released April 4th. Which Skullgirls will almost certainly not be released on.
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Mar 26, 2012 20:01
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Waterbed posted:Fez just passed certification. Before Skullgirls. Meaning it will probably be released April 4th. Which Skullgirls will almost certainly not be released on. I was wrong! It's being released on the 13th, so Skullgirls is possibly being released on the 4th considering nothing else has been announced for that time, it seems. anime was right fucked around with this message at 14:02 on Mar 29, 2012 |
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Mar 29, 2012 13:59
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Munsun posted:Painwheel lookin so nice from some of these recent FNF vids I have seen. She looks closer to Dog Zappa. Edit: Dog Zappa is a lot easier than most other puppet characters but the biggest problem is no one has had training mode or long periods of time with the game yet except a select few people.
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Mar 31, 2012 15:16
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I'm pretty sure everyone hated Stickfigs the most after the other two listed. Oh and Artemis if he counts.
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Apr 1, 2012 03:35
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I got to test that thing. And the version after that. Like, I'd love to go through the previous versions and the interesting stories from them, but I'd rather do that post release and an OK from the developers. I'm probably the most neutral party involved on the gameplay end.
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Apr 4, 2012 16:56
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Niddhogg posted:iirc there's some hard evidence that proves Filia was designed before Milia Rage from Guilty Gear. I highly doubt this, while the character designs are ancient, they aren't pre Guilty Gear ancient. IIRC they were made about 10 years ago.
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Apr 4, 2012 20:27
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Niddhogg posted:If it doesn't predate it maybe he just said he didn't see Milia until he already thought of Filia? It wouldn't be too difficult since "Woman who can control her hair and fight with it" isn't that difficult to come up with. Or maybe he just got it from the Inhumans or Powerpuff Girls instead heh. I mean, I don't really care or anything, but do you think characters Alex invented in High School are going to be beacons of creative integrity? It's almost certainly based off Millia, but it's not like Daisuke Ishiwatari cares (he even likes the game). So whatever.
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Apr 4, 2012 20:34
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Skullgirl's facebook now says April 10th.
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Apr 6, 2012 01:30
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I wish XBL worked for this game.
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Apr 11, 2012 14:29
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Good netcode. Lots of things feel weird. Too much emphasis on animation hurts gameplay in a couple of situations. I wish I had dummy options in training mode :/
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Apr 12, 2012 02:55
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Me and Zerp discovered a scribble cat. We weren't sure what caused it. We must know. We were playing Valentine vs Cerebella, we were mashing up close, then a poorly drawn cat came out and ran off the stage.
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Apr 12, 2012 08:20
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Zero000 posted:It appeared between us. Then we just watched it walk away We didn't move for like 20 seconds. The scribble cat is the greatest.
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Apr 12, 2012 08:24
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So I've come to the conclusion that the custom stage lighting sucks and makes it harder to read mixups with assists going on because everything is the same color and overall there's just less contrast between the characters colors. It's much easier to play on the Maplecrest stage. I'm not colorblind either.
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Apr 14, 2012 18:16
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Liar Lyre posted:Try adjusting some of your TV settings first. There are lots of games that turn to a monochromatic mess on my tv that require some adjusting. Well my TV is 26 years old but I've never had this problem with any other fighting game I've owned, and I've played it on other TVs and have the same problem.
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Apr 14, 2012 18:23
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Liar Lyre posted:I dunno man, you may need to get your eyes checked. The only one that's really bad is the street stage. Like I said, try brightness and contrast on your tv. If it's still bad, see an optometrist (that's what eye doctors are called, right?) Except literally no other fighting game has this problem. It's not unplayable, it just makes reading things harder when it could be easier. flatluigi posted:Jesus christ how low-rez is your TV? You probably just need to hook it up to your computer monitor or something. My TV works great! I'm not kidding. I have no idea why it's still this functional, it's older than I am.
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Apr 14, 2012 18:36
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Kageneko posted:Sorry but CRTs will degrade over time. You should play it on new TV before you complain about it. Honestly just to rule it out. I have. I said that. I'm not saying it's a huge issue, but it's definitely a thing that makes the game slightly worse.
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Apr 14, 2012 19:11
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Easy Cerebella meterless kill (doesn't work vs a couple of characters unless kind of out of the corner). 1v3 obviously. jHK, stand MP, merry go rilla, c.lk, c.mp, c.hp, j.hp immediate land, c.lp, c.mp, c.hp, j.lpxsome number, land, lp, lp, mp, c.hp dp+throw. Pretty easy IMO. Obviously it requires a jump in. There's probably other ways to get kills that lead off easier stuff with another jump series somehow and stand LK, not sure how to get it though. I'll just rip off desk when he makes more stuff. Edit: Looking above I guess I can start a series with a jMk into reland. Cool. By the way at certain ranges you can duck that double assist. anime was right fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Apr 15, 2012 |
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Apr 15, 2012 19:33
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The 19th Person posted:Around 1:24, Parasoul bursts out of the infinite and Desk somehow punishes. What happened? I think it was a run cancel where the super armor ate the burst but not too sure. That's definitely a run -> stop.
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Apr 15, 2012 22:58
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Having the "advantage of information" is a thing that happens in every game, no matter how simple. The more you play, the more knowledge you have on various interactions, which is information. The experience advantage in chess is an information advantage. That's how you win.
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Apr 16, 2012 12:20
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Using in game behavior as a way to track skill almost never works, and when it does, it has to be in pretty binary terms. People really need to adapt the mindset that losing isn't bad. If you lose, no one cares.
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Apr 21, 2012 01:57
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The problem is there is never a RIGHT way to win, as long as you win. That's the only thing that determines skill. If I kill someone by just hitting the HP button over and over again, that probably means I'm way, way better player than them, or really, really terrible. These metrics cannot measure the context in which a choice was made, and thus are utterly useless. Now, even if you made this system work, think about how difficult it would be to implement and balance properly because of complexity of determining context, there's no point in placing in that much effort when you have 12 people in your company and you need to make a functional game first. This game barely shipped with 8 characters and hardly any features. What you're asking for is an impossibility.
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Apr 21, 2012 02:03
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That "glitch" is silly and should at least not trigger the IPS effect.
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Apr 25, 2012 03:03
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AXE COP posted:If you mean in terms of being mildly useless, probably no one (they can't really afford to have a lovely character when the roster is this small). If you mean in terms of comedy value then Umbrella I guess? They could afford to make a joke level character if it were along the lines of the characters in Big Bang Beat: They have like 6 frames of animation and two moves.
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May 1, 2012 16:25
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Broken Loose posted:Not quite. His central point is that, in the absence of Hornet Bomber, these same players would be complaining about something else (be it Napalm Pillar, green vial, item drop, or many other things which people are actually complaining about on other forums in real time at this very moment). poo poo, back in Street Fighter 2 these people were complaining about throws. People will always find something to complain about, but that doesn't mean the thing they're complaining about isn't causing game retention to drop dramatically faster than the second most complained about thing would. The central point is kind of BS IMO. Hornet Bomber is honest to god one of easiest to use things for how hard it is to counter. I don't really mind it that much (and I certainly thing it could use a REALLY minor nerf), but the people who aren't me are going to hit that wall far faster than they would any other assist because functionally, it does a lot of the same things that Napalm Pillar does to a bad player but better in every way. Jeffrey posted:I don't think there are many cases at all where "some balance issues or characters or moves hinder the fun of the game". Every game has moves that people will whine about, but I don't think that is the same thing. Does Magneto ruin the fun of mvc2 because you can't play Guile? Frankly, the things that are "unbalanced" define what the game is and how it is played in the first place, creators' intentions be damned. Having house rules that ban them is just denial. Game health in competitive games is often very reliant on not making bad players quit. The less of these kinds of situations you have, the higher retention you'll have, and the more likely your game will have competitive success. Why do you think SF4 made changes the way it did and was made the way it was? It had that principle in mind more than anything else. anime was right fucked around with this message at 01:39 on May 4, 2012 |
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May 4, 2012 01:21
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Jeffrey posted:Basically, I wish we lived in a parallel universe where there were still arcades in America, so you go and you play the game and if something is too good, you just deal with it. This is some made up dreamworld that never existed. People made up house rules for throws, fireballs and dizzies all the time, and if you didn't adhere to them, bad things happened to you outside of the game. Instead of quitting the game, they made the people who did these things quit through physical acts of violence, threats or just making you play along. There's always a balance to hit here. If Mike Z wants to make the Mike Z game for Mike Z and then no one buys the DLC, okay. Let him do that. When I learned Blazblue in the arcades, people quit the game constantly becuase Tager is a frustrating dude to fight against. I don't mean like they got up and didn't play for a while and observed. I mean I literally never saw them play Blazblue again after they called me a "cheap bitch". Arcades are not some holy ground immune from the principle of frustration. anime was right fucked around with this message at 02:08 on May 4, 2012 |
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May 4, 2012 02:05
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