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Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009





There are several books in the middle where he literally does nothing but appear in one scene toward the beginning or end and grit his teeth furiously.

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Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all


Well he's an ever present corrupting influence and he doesn't have to actually do anything besides show up to mess with people.

Eighties ZomCom
Sep 10, 2008






Wasn't there a theory that Fain was meant to be Mat's primary antagonist in the same way that Slayer is Perrin's?

Red Mike
Jul 11, 2011


Wasn't Mat's primary antagonist the gholam?

RC Cola
Aug 1, 2011

Dovie'andi se tovya sagain






Red Mike posted:

Wasn't Mat's primary antagonist the gholam?

And also marriage

JawKnee
Mar 24, 2007




A short fuse to scatter steady hands if I forget to remember that better lives have been lived in the margins and locked in the prisons and lost on the gallows than have ever been enshrined in palaces



Dealing With This poo poo

rndmnmbr
Jul 3, 2012



Hmm. Remove the gholam and put Fain in it's place, and aside from having to change a few details, it surprisingly works out.

Almost like Jordan at some point forgot that Fain was to be Matt's arch-nemesis, but still remembered how the plot to Matt's arch-nemesis went, so he ginned up a vampire and called it a day.

e. or he came up with an even better idea for Fain around Book 8 or so, so he made the substitution but then forgot to write the idea down.

rndmnmbr fucked around with this message at 09:04 on Jul 8, 2016

Eighties ZomCom
Sep 10, 2008






Makes sense.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



rndmnmbr posted:

Hmm. Remove the gholam and put Fain in it's place, and aside from having to change a few details, it surprisingly works out.

Almost like Jordan at some point forgot that Fain was to be Matt's arch-nemesis, but still remembered how the plot to Matt's arch-nemesis went, so he ginned up a vampire and called it a day.

e. or he came up with an even better idea for Fain around Book 8 or so, so he made the substitution but then forgot to write the idea down.

Mat's trajectory seemed like a massive swerve. In tEotW the dagger seems like a fundamental part of his Ta'vaereenness - the little magic figurine has him with the dagger, perrin with the wolf, and Rand with the sword - and he even starts to tap into his Other-memory without the thing-Finn doing the Finn-thing. Then he just starts accumulating magic trinkets.

rndmnmbr
Jul 3, 2012



Strom Cuzewon posted:

Mat's trajectory seemed like a massive swerve.

Let's be honest here, though: until halfway through TDR, Matt was boring. He didn't become an interesting character until RJ swapped his superpowers from 'generic evil disease' to 'stupid-awesome luck'.

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009





rndmnmbr posted:

Let's be honest here, though: until halfway through TDR, Matt was boring. He didn't become an interesting character until RJ swapped his superpowers from 'generic evil disease' to 'stupid-awesome luck'.

And really I didn't find him entertaining or even tolerable until Sanderson made him actually funny (like he was always intended to be), instead of the text constantly just saying third-hand that he was joking around or cracking wise and not letting us actually hear anything come out of his mouth but caustic complaints.

I loved the bit about the rich dramatic backstories he had invented for all his companions' assumed identities

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all


I think I had read too much Sanderson by that point and just found it to be more of the same from his other books. Wit in Stormlight is one of the least funny characters ever.

Blind Melon
Jan 3, 2006
I like fire, you can have some too.

Data Graham posted:

And really I didn't find him entertaining or even tolerable until Sanderson made him actually funny (like he was always intended to be), instead of the text constantly just saying third-hand that he was joking around or cracking wise and not letting us actually hear anything come out of his mouth but caustic complaints.

I could not possibly disagree more.

This also p.much puts to rest the lie that Sanderson captured Mat's tone. He turned Mat into a ham. Of course, ham-fisted humor is the only humor that Sanderson seems capable of writing. See: Stormlight Archives.

Blind Melon fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Jul 12, 2016

JawKnee
Mar 24, 2007




A short fuse to scatter steady hands if I forget to remember that better lives have been lived in the margins and locked in the prisons and lost on the gallows than have ever been enshrined in palaces



Sanderson's characterization of Matt felt off, but I couldn't really hit on why. I suppose Jordan's character was this reluctantly capable individual that was intentionally dumped on plot-wise and internally contradictory as comedy relief. Sanderson's felt overdone - too bombastic somehow.

Blind Melon
Jan 3, 2006
I like fire, you can have some too.

Jordan never intended Mat to be likable, and was surprised when he was a fan favorite. Sanderson tried to make him likable.

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009





That would explain it then.

By the time Sanderson took over I was jonesing for some attempt, however clumsy and transparent, to make any of these guys likable.

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all


Data Graham posted:

That would explain it then.

By the time Sanderson took over I was jonesing for some attempt, however clumsy and transparent, to make any of these guys likable.

I still can't figure out why you'd read 14 lengthy books you hate.

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009





So I could have the moral high ground over someone who snidely refused to take the time to read/watch anything I suggested for him.


Not saying it wasn't a childish move, but dammit, at least I commit to my bad decisions.




(Also it seems it's an element of basic genre literacy that I've been missing all these years for the purpose of reading mockery of stuff like the Sword of Truth, so what the hell, I don't regret it.)

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all


Data Graham posted:

So I could have the moral high ground over someone who snidely refused to take the time to read/watch anything I suggested for him.


Not saying it wasn't a childish move, but dammit, at least I commit to my bad decisions.




(Also it seems it's an element of basic genre literacy that I've been missing all these years for the purpose of reading mockery of stuff like the Sword of Truth, so what the hell, I don't regret it.)

Life is too short man. This is like my friend who reads Ayn Rand so he can participate in online political debates in good faith.

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009





Eh. It ate five months of commutes. It was either that or reload the forums more obsessively than usual.

And anyway it's fun using it as a source for real-life trolling. Like when we were shopping for fireworks I casually referred to certain ones as "nightflowers" just for the him: "what" me: "what" reaction.

Mad Hamish
Jun 15, 2008

WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.




Surely you mean sky lights?

Old Kentucky Shark
May 25, 2012

If you think you're gonna get sympathy from the shark, well then, you won't.



JawKnee posted:

Sanderson's characterization of Matt felt off, but I couldn't really hit on why. I suppose Jordan's character was this reluctantly capable individual that was intentionally dumped on plot-wise and internally contradictory as comedy relief. Sanderson's felt overdone - too bombastic somehow.
It's because Jordan's Matt was a straight man, and Sanderson's is a comedian.

Jordan's Matt never rarely tried to be funny, and when he did try he usually failed. The humor in Jordan's Matt came from him being, from his perspective, the only sane man in an insane world of witches and idiot princesses and Seanchan who keeps pursuing a series of seemingly sensible and rational courses of action which, thanks to twists of fate, keep turning him into either a hero or a buffoon or both.

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all


Mat's also the kind of guy that gets into trouble by being impulsive, not necessarily the kind of guy that tells jokes.

team overhead smash
Sep 2, 2006

Team-Forest-Tree-Dog:
Smashing your way into our hearts one skylight at a time

Blind Melon posted:

Jordan never intended Mat to be likable, and was surprised when he was a fan favorite. Sanderson tried to make him likable.

After he got his luck powers, Matt quickly became one of my favourite characters. I can understand why Jordan wouldn't have thought he was that likeable in the first couple of books though.

Old Kentucky Shark
May 25, 2012

If you think you're gonna get sympathy from the shark, well then, you won't.



team overhead smash posted:

After he got his luck powers, Matt quickly became one of my favourite characters. I can understand why Jordan wouldn't have thought he was that likeable in the first couple of books though.

Yeah, I have a hard time believing that Jordan didn't think Mat was likable from TDR onwards; you don't have an unlikable character beat two aristocrats in a swordfight with a stick and then invent demolition charges.

Blind Melon
Jan 3, 2006
I like fire, you can have some too.

He immediately went on a drunken gambling binge culminating in his suicide pact jumping off a bridge with a grey man and... I'm undermining my whole argument here who am I kidding.

Old Kentucky Shark
May 25, 2012

If you think you're gonna get sympathy from the shark, well then, you won't.



In retrospect that may have been a conscious effort to rehabilitate Mat from the dagger-Gollum he was in book 2.

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!



Morbid Hound

You can see foreshadowing of Matt 's later character early in eotw, when he's flouring people's dogs for a prank and so forth. He was planned as the trickster figure from the start.

Blind Melon
Jan 3, 2006
I like fire, you can have some too.

A trickster and a comedian are two different things.

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all


Blind Melon posted:

A trickster and a comedian are two different things.

That's what I meant when I said there was a difference between someone with poor impulse control and a guy who tells jokes.

Lpzie
Nov 20, 2006



Just started reading this series. I'm at the beginning of book 2. Does Rand ever loving man up and stop getting punked by almost everyone around him? I'm getting tired of him being a big baby bitch when he should be a straight up G.

Hogge Wild
Aug 21, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


Pillbug

Lpzie posted:

Just started reading this series. I'm at the beginning of book 2. Does Rand ever loving man up and stop getting punked by almost everyone around him? I'm getting tired of him being a big baby bitch when he should be a straight up G.

yes, in the book 13

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE


Lpzie posted:

Just started reading this series. I'm at the beginning of book 2. Does Rand ever loving man up and stop getting punked by almost everyone around him? I'm getting tired of him being a big baby bitch when he should be a straight up G.

He starts to do so at the end of book 2, and even more at the end of book 3.

RembrandtQEinstein
Jul 1, 2009

A GOD, A MESSIAH, AN ARCHANGEL, A KING, A PRINCE, AND AN ALL TERRAIN VEHICLE.


Lpzie posted:

Just started reading this series. I'm at the beginning of book 2. Does Rand ever loving man up and stop getting punked by almost everyone around him? I'm getting tired of him being a big baby bitch when he should be a straight up G.

He certainly does, but he is also a giant baby many more times throughout the series. TGH is a big improvement over TEotW, and TDR is a nice step up again.

Willie Tomg
Feb 2, 2006


Lpzie posted:

Just started reading this series. I'm at the beginning of book 2. Does Rand ever loving man up and stop getting punked by almost everyone around him? I'm getting tired of him being a big baby bitch when he should be a straight up G.

His entire arc is the story of him doing this

he casually takes control of kingdoms without even trying or wanting to, and beneath the po-faced presentation it's pretty funny tbh

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all


Book 2 might still have the best conclusion of any book in the series.

silvergoose
Mar 18, 2006

IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS



Atlas Hugged posted:

Book 2 might still have the best conclusion of any book in the series.

Which part? Lanfear, the skyfight, the hornbattle?

Hogge Wild
Aug 21, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


Pillbug

Ingtar is cool.

silvergoose
Mar 18, 2006

IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS



Hogge Wild posted:

Ingtar is cool.

Oh yeah that is one of the better scenes from the book too, isn't it.

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Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all


silvergoose posted:

Which part? Lanfear, the skyfight, the hornbattle?

Yes.

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