|
I've just finished Book VI. Easily my favourite one so far. Sure, there was a whole lot of nothing going on in places with some political bickering, but I'm a sucker for that getting-the-band-back-together kind of story. A few chapters in to VII and I'm confused - what the hell was the plan at Dumai's Wells? The Tower allied with the Shaido to capture Rand, but Sevanna had a Wise One killed to turn the Shadio against the Tower to have Rand for herself, and then the Tower was also hoping the Younglings would all get killed for..reasons. The political stuff is kinda cool, but I really struggle to make sense of it as a whole - nobody seems to have much loyalty to anything other than themselves or their immediate friends, and when almost any action can be explained with "their actually a Darkfriend and deliberately making a mess of it" its so hard to figure out why and how things are happening. It's all a bit of a blur.
|
#
¿
Apr 9, 2014 13:46
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ Apr 26, 2024 13:18 |
|
|
api call girl posted:3 layers of factions going on, yes. Elaida wanted to capture Rand, Sevaana wanted to capture Rand, the Black Ajah wanted the Tower to capture Rand because they basically run the Tower, but you'll realize is the Shadow (i.e. Forsaken level and above) was just as happy to have hosed with Rand's mind. Ah, I thought maybe killing the Younglings was Elaida's plan, but she's probably not quite that crazy yet. Also I came so close to quoting to your other post to be all "thanks for the warning". Glad I didn't.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 10, 2014 21:37
|
|
|
Book 7 finished. I was warned that 7 was where the series dives, but I really quite enjoyed this one. Jordan's idea of how human-interactions is still a bit aggressive and vicious, but it's nice to see Min and Rand actually discussing their relationship, instead of just shouting all the time. Birgette and Avidendah confronting Nynaeave and Elayne about their horrible attitude to Mat (especially re: his rescue of them back in Tear) was very satisfying to see, as was Birgette and Mat slowly becoming drinking buddies. I'm starting to get the impression that the inability of most people (especially Aes Sedai) to actually bargain and co-operate with people is actually the point (instead of just a quirk of Jordan's writing style) and that eventually we'll see everyone softening and learning to work together, which makes it easier to sit through the hundreds of pages of yelling and bullying. I'm also enjoying the way Rand and the rebel Aes Sedai are starting to break the world. Back when the politics started creeping into the series, around book 3, I remember being frustrated at how messy the world was - communication is slow, travel is tedious, nobody knows what's happening outside of vague rumours - so I like how Travelling and Dream-Communication let Rand and Egwene mess with the normal way of doing business. Stuff like Rand's teleportation of Mat's warband, the Forsaken dude (forget which) disrupting the Shaido with dodgy travelling (no idea why he did that, surely the Shaido are more of a threat to Rand if they're all in one place?). I don't quite have the grasp of the geography (the map is hard to read on the Kindle, and it's a terrible lump of fantasy map-making anyway) to follow all the feints and tricks, but it's fun to see. The final chapter feels extremely rushed - there hadn't been much discussion of assaulting Samael since the previous book, so it kind of came out of nowhere. The actual attack on the city was pulpy and comic-booky and over the top, and I absolutely loved it. Ever since his assault on Tear, where he blasts himself into people's dreams (which...never got mentioned again) I've been waiting for Rand to do something huge and dramatic to announce to the world that he really IS the Dragon Reborn. Teleporting an army, setting the sky on fire, and booming his name across the city, yeah, that's big and dramatic enough for me. Even though I have no idea what the point of equipping his army with only shields and crossbows was meant to do. As for the negatives: The final fight was a bit of a letdown. As soon as it goes to Shadar Logoth it was pretty obvious that the fog-monster would kill Samael, although I was expecting Liah to tackle him into it. But to have it be off-page...that's kinda weird. Moiraine is also blatantly not dead. Probably Lanfear too. Lan is nowhere near broken enough to have felt her die, the Bond transfer hints at some shenanigans going on, even if Min's vision didn't spell it out And the less said about Mat and Queen Sex-Pest the better. (I like brackets)
|
|
#
¿
Apr 13, 2014 12:41
|
|
|
The Lord Bude posted:Personally I always felt books 6&7 were the best. In fact probably 4-8. and I prefer 9&10 to the first 3 although they aren't as good as some of the others. It's a controversial opinion to have, but I always felt much of the hate towards later books came from frustration at the slow pacing in books being dribbled out years apart. Being able to read the entire series in one hit massively changes the experience for the better in my opinion. It's 4 million words, no way I'm doing a second read-through. Part-way through Book 8 and I have a theory. Moridin is alternate-cycle Rand/Lews Therin who submitted to Shaitan (did Jordan just forget his name? Haven't heard it since book 3). The dead philosopher, Mr Fel, had some ideas about just how cyclical the Wheel of Time is - he suggests that the Aes Sedai were able to bore into the Dark Ones Prison because there was a weak spot, the seal that was created to patch up the hole after their bored through the weak spot etc. etc. Rand's visions of the future seem to support that, as he seems skyscrapers, beetle-things and wings, cars and planes, which are similar to the sho-wings that he sees in the Aeil memory-door. The opening paragraph of each book also talks about how the Third Age is both long-gone and yet-to-come. In the opening of 8 Moridin is playing a board-game based around a figure called the Fisher - he explicitly considers the idea that it's based on a previous cycle's Dragon, so we KNOW that some things between cycles (not just Ages) can be passed on. But the Fisher is just like the small figurines that Ba'alzamon (did we ever find out what was up with him? It seemed to end with a "oh, so he isn't actually Shaitan" *shrug*) confronts Rand and co with way back in book one. It seems possible that the Fisher is Moridin, and is what his cycle's Ba'alzamon showed to him in HIS dreams. Also I just realised that Ba'alzamon was physically walking into Tel'aran'rhoid. Neat. I don't know how to relate the Prison to Cycles and the parallel-realities. There's talk after the Portal Stone-hopping about how the release of the Dark One may happen across ALL realities, that if Rand loses, the whole multiverse loses. This doesn't really work with Fel's theories - the Dark One has to keep escaping and being re-imprisoned, or else the cycle can't keep going. The way I see it, either the series is going to end on a Dark Tower-style note, where Shaitan gets locked up again with a shoddy-seal so will eventually escape in a later cycle, or a BioShock: Infinite ending, where some major reality bending allows the victory to be permanent across all times, across all Patterns. I really enjoyed seeing the alternate lives of Rand and the crew, so anything that brings them back into the plot would be welcome. Also, Moridin crushed the blood out of his man-servant, the description is almost exactly the same as the one used when Alviarin is reminiscing about killing an Amyrlin. So maybe Alviarin is using the same evil-magic as Moridin. It's totally within the Dark One's MO to hide one of his secret weapons in the Black Ajah, where she can keep an eye on all of the Forsaken without them considering her a threat.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 14, 2014 22:18
|
|
|
I've now finished Books 8 and 9. These were easily my favourite ones so far. Even when his pacing stumbles a bit (like the stuttered battles in 8) Jordan knows how to write a dramatic climax. And what a climax! The use of the Shadar Logoth taint, and how Rand's wounds mirror the battle going on in the Source was a nice touch. It actually gave a clear, intuitive, explanation for what was going on, instead of the normal rambling-on about Weaves and Spirit. That and the bluffs in Far Madding about the Channel-suppression kind of sum-up Jordan's approach to his heroes. They aren't super-cunning or geniuses, but they are just clever enough to be dangerous. They blindly stumble around until they discover or are given some fantastical power or knowledge (the wolf-speech, Gateways, ta'varen-ness) and then they just go hog wild and exploit the crap out of it. It gives the whole series such a fun pulpy feel. The sister-hood ceremony is probably the high-point of Jordan's writing for me. No more prudishness, no childish embarrassments, no petty and humiliating "penances", just good, frank, discussions of relationships, and trust and love, and what that all means. I like how they don't chicken out and go for a symbolic strike across the face, that's not the Aiel way. Elaine and Aviendha properly belted each other across the room. Loved it. And then they immediately half-inch the Weaves from it to make their triple Warder-bond without the briefest thought for what that bond really entails, ignoring everything the Wise Ones told them barely the day before. A little knowledge really is a dangerous thing, and I love how Min and Aviendha are so completely unprepared for the consequences. Elayne I imagine had a whale of a time. I'm halfway through 10, and coming into it from that high-point was always setting me up for a disappointment. But right now, I want to die. Huge great swathes of this thing are completely unnecessary. Why do we spend more time discussing trivial campsite arguments than Tylin's brutal death or how Mat unleashed a swarm of angry Channelers on a civilian city. It's a double shame when I think of how great Mat's gradual development has been. I love how he's instinctively noble, he doesn't see it as bravery, or conscious moral choices, he just does the right thing because that's what you do. And despite how much Nynaeve looks down on his womanising, he's the least chauvinist guy in the series. Those chapters could have been so much more. The same goes for Perrin's stuff - there's some great development with him regarding Faile + Berelain, and the responsibilities of leadership, but it's all bogged down in minutiae. The way the narrative jumps around in time so we can see everyone's days leading up to the climax of 9 is kind of clever, but I feel it would have been better served if we saw their reactions to it more quickly, instead of 4 or 5 chapters apart. It would also be better if they actually had reactions. Mat and Perrin's sections stop almost immediately after it, and both Elayne and Egwene practically ignore it. It's the single biggest thing to have happened in the world. It's both a literal and metaphysical Krakatoa. There'd be half-conscious Wilders a continent away feeling that, and does anybody care? Does anybody even go and investigate? gently caress no. There are repeated instances of poo poo like "oh that damned mushroom cloud sure is annoying me" The Darkfriend chapters are the absolute nadir of the whole series for me. They just constantly labour how backstabby and eeeeeee-vil everyone is, but give barely any character to any of them. I'll give you an example - a while back we jump into a new Darkfriend travelling to Caemlyn. Then Elayne appoints a new captain of the guard in a situation that is clearly a set up. Then that guard is revealed to the reader as a darkfriend. In this book, we then find out that he was the one we Quantum-Leapt to earlier. Did we really need any of that? Why mess around with his names? Why even have the scene when he reveals the plot to the Chosen? He could have introduced him with his real name in his first perspective chapter, then when he introduces himself to Elayne and gets promoted there's a nice punchy reveal when the reader finds out who he is. What I find more distateful, is the constant mixing of prudishness and base sex. Maybe I'm weird, but if your character is an unrepentant rapist I feel you should actually confront the magnitude of what that means. Describing it as "tumbling a woman against her will" is pointlessly euphemistic. Either call it rape, or don't make people rapists just to underscore how evil they are.
|
|
#
¿
May 2, 2014 21:56
|
|
|
Nihilarian posted:Is that what he was talking about? I dismissed it out of hand because I didn't think anyone would look at the freeing of slaves-to-be as a bad thing. Oh yeah, it's totally a good thing. As was breaking the siege of Cairhien, rallying the Two Rivers, and all the other heroic deeds they get up to. But one of the big themes so far seems to be that no matter how noble and just your actions are, people will die. Freeing the damane is the first time Mat is arguably the aggressor in combat, and it felt like a missed opportunity not to milk it a bit more.
|
|
#
¿
May 3, 2014 10:45
|
|
|
Book Thirteen finished. Onto the home stretch now. I definitely prefer Sanderson's writing style. The text is a lot brisker, with less obsessions over the minutiae of people's clothing. He still occasionally tortures a metaphor ("he was a tough as a hundred year old oak tree that still had axes in it") and the Taraboner accent, it do be as cringingly awful as before I do think. Also Siuan's constant fish metaphors. More than Sanderson's better pace, books 12 and 13 completely outstrip the rest of the series in terms of sheer holy poo poo moments. The Seanchan attack, hardass-Egwene, the three-tiered dream fight, Jaim loving Farstrider. My favourite scene is Olver winning Snakes and Foxes - it's a subtle bit of ta'vereen-ing, but feels bigger and more important, like reality genuinely is warping around them and coming unravelled. The bubbles of evil just felt goofy, and I wish more people actually seemed worried about living in the literal End of Days, but the whole Aelfinn arc had such a great mythic feel. Mat and Perrin are finally becoming the heroes of legend that they need to be. I have a new respect for the scale of Jordan's planning - Perrin's discussion with Noal is the first thing that Egwene dreams, ELEVEN books previously. Is there a list of all the visions/prophecies/ter'angeal induced realities and how they relate to the series? There are some that I'm sure have come true (Egwene and Nynaeve's Accepted tests) but I can't remember enough of the detail to see how it all relates. And Verin owns. So very much.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 1, 2014 11:21
|
|
|
the JJ posted:You are wrong and should feel bad. Sanderson never wrote the phrase "the die had been cast, if not yet thrown"
|
|
#
¿
Jun 1, 2014 20:47
|
|
|
It's done. The series is finished. I didn't leave the house on Sunday, but I finished it. What the gently caress was the ending? That was nonsensical bollocks. I'll back up to what I liked. The battle in the book, the actual Tarmon Gai'don, is fantastic. It's not stunning writing, but having travelled with these characters for so long it was crushing to see them all cut down like that. Jordan seemed to favour quantity over depth with his minor characters, but it still pays-off well - Bashere, Rhuarc, Doesine, Congar, these hit me just as hard as the major deaths. And those major character deaths were brutal - everyone got great final scenes, enough for me to overlook the wobbly organisation of the battle, or the literal conga-line of heroic sacrifices into Demandred. I can't help feel that it was all somewhat unnecessary - the battle was never for anything, but from a character perspective I loved every second of it. Especially Mat. And Perrin. And Andros. Christ, couldn't we have had Andros and Pevarrin three books earlier? But then we get to the ACTUAL last battle, Rand v Shaitan, the fight the whole series has been building up to. And we get a freshman essay on freewill and the nature of evil. Satan can't die because men have to choose not to be evil. Not for any transcendent moral reason, but because the world Rand spins from the pattern is boring and goofy. I am genuinely angry at having read that. "the evil was in men's hearts all along" is a pretty dumb twist, but it's even worse when your opponent is literally Satan. If Shai'tan has no actual power, then what's the True Power all about? What are bubbles of evil? It's nonsense. There's sod all in the previous books about actually choosing good vs evil. There's no struggle. Not ever. People are good, people are evil. If one day you decide to be evil then that's it. You're stuck. Trapped by Satan's magic-hand in your brain, forcing you to keep on being evil. The Dark One is a conscious, deliberate, and corrupting influence on the world. He's Evil, not evil. That's how the entire series works, and then we suddenly swerve into theodicy. And Rand's solution to this dilemma - he pulls him out the pattern. Evil can't be killed, that would be bad. But evil can be torn from existence, thrown outside of reality. Somehow that's acceptable. (I actually like the twist on the way the seals were used creatively, after all the build up on how the kept Shai'tan in his prison. I was expecting Rand to climb IN with him and then seal the bore, so the two would be trapped in some yin-yang situation. That would actually give some justification for people having to choose good or evil, Rand or The Dark One. ) I'm not even touching the epilogue. Rand is now as powerful as The Creator. And alive. Somehow. Willie Tomg posted:I must've blocked that one out over the years. Good lord that is terrible. He also keeps using Jordan's bit about Myyrdraal "not knowing it's dead til morning". That was a great phrase the first time I read it. The twentieth, less so. While we're here, lets take a look at Jordan's talents with names. One Power. True Power. True Source. These are different. Mesaana. Masema. Noal. Noam. Subsequent chapters. There are two Damodreds and a Demandred. Sheriam and Shemerin have a conversation. Baldhere and Balvere don't, which is convenient. Bashere might. Barstere definitely doesn't.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 4, 2014 19:00
|
|
|
Odette posted:I highly doubt that. Sanderson himself is an avid fan of the Wheel of Time series, and he's not so conservative in his own works. There's also the excerpt from Jordan's notes a few pages back:  Which somehow makes it even more inane. Especially as literally everyone is dragged to Tarmon Gai'don by prophecy, which circumvents free will just as much as Rand zapping all over the place and shouting "ffs people work together". Also "notes on books two through 6"
|
|
#
¿
Jun 6, 2014 16:16
|
|
|
Khizan posted:My ideal ending for Lan would have had Lan killing Demandred and dying in the process. In dying, he'd end up bound to the Horn of Valere, which means he would come back when they blew the Horn later in the Last Battle and get a chance to say his goodbyes. Seeing Jain alongside Birgette and co was awesome. I would totally have been okay with a high-camp ending where every dead character from Tarmon Gai'Don - Egwene, Lan, Bashere - and even the ones from before like Verin and Tylin, came back when the horn was blown and kicked the Dark Ones arse.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 8, 2014 17:05
|
|
|
api call girl posted:It still tickles me in all the right spots that the boss there is a fire-breathing dragon wielding the holy grail facing the knights of the round table. Oh for fucks sake! He is, isn't he?
|
|
#
¿
Oct 5, 2014 21:10
|
|
|
Zephyrine posted:Makes me wonder why he beat around the bush so much instead of just making Elayne and Aviendha a couple. They have more chemistry than most couples in the series. I do love the sisterhood ceremony where they're told to strike each other and instead of a simple backhand they smash each other across the room. It's the only time the wierd violence fits, and the only time he actually adds to all the Fremen stuff he nicked for the Aiel.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 12, 2014 00:44
|
|
|
nucleicmaxid posted:That's sort of the beauty of ta'averen. There are no plot holes, just really big coincidences due to the pattern twisting. No, it's still a bloody plot hole. Coming up with a reason for contrived situations doesn't make them less contrived.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 20, 2014 23:42
|
|
|
Blind Melon posted:Hey man that's not fair, Perrin was awesome (in the Two Rivers campaign). They should have gone straight from saving two rivers to full on Tai'shan Manetheren, and then he and Mat and the Red Hand could have spent 5 books being total bros and actually fixing the world while Rand fucks around and goes insane.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 15, 2015 14:11
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:and the magic system will look cartoony anyway. Why is this? Is anyone going to be watching the show for intricate representations of weaves? You could replace every descriptive of weaves with "she magicked the magic with her magicy magic" and nothing would be lost from the story. Just do some Daredevil style World on Fire vision every now and then and stick to fireballs and wooshy effects.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 29, 2016 15:48
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:It's kind of funny that WoT is right on the line where you can legitimately read and respect it for its real technical merit and also simultaneously hate-read it for all the things it does terribly. It's 4.2 million words. There's room there for a lot of different interpretations. Which also works against it - it's hard to get the significance of half the stuff going on when Lord of the Rings could fit comfortably between key events.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 14, 2016 20:53
|
|
|
I came to the series long after it ended, so didn't get to see all the insane speculation that I can only assume happened. What were the common/outlandish predictions floating round? I was convinced that Rand was gonna seal himself inside the prison with the dark one, breaking the cycle at last and battling him for all eternity, in a yin and yang type way (see? It's symbolic) But then I also thought Moridin was evil - Rand from the future. So clearly I don't know anything.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 27, 2016 12:30
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ Apr 26, 2024 13:18 |
|
|
rndmnmbr posted:Hmm. Remove the gholam and put Fain in it's place, and aside from having to change a few details, it surprisingly works out. Mat's trajectory seemed like a massive swerve. In tEotW the dagger seems like a fundamental part of his Ta'vaereenness - the little magic figurine has him with the dagger, perrin with the wolf, and Rand with the sword - and he even starts to tap into his Other-memory without the thing-Finn doing the Finn-thing. Then he just starts accumulating magic trinkets.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 9, 2016 13:10
|
|