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Tsaedje
May 11, 2007

BRAWNY BUTTONS 4 LYFE
Kisenosato (now Araiso Oyakata) has kept some weight to help his stablemates, particularly Takaysu, train by fighting against him.

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Rigel
Nov 11, 2016

Ishiura got into a fistfight with one of his stablemates Hokaho (Ms16W). Yokozuna Hakuho stepped in to break up the fight.



Based on the (translated) reports, it appears that Ishiura instigated it, and it sounds like it was pretty much almost all his fault. Their oyakata reported the incident to the kyokai, so I bet Ishiura will be out of the tournament.

Elissimpark
May 20, 2010

Bring me the head of Auguste Escoffier.

Marching Powder posted:

So.... sumo guys die super loving young huh? Like, way earlier than fat, unfair people (or so it seems). Is anyone studying this?

The life expectancy of rikishi is about 20 years less than the Japanese national average. Just the training and eating is like overclocking your body, let alone complications from the weight and dodgy injury management.

I'd say it would be similar to issues for power lifters and World Strongman competitors. Putting your body through that kind of training isn't long term healthy.

Marching Powder
Mar 8, 2008



stop the fucking fight, cornerman, your dude is fucking done and is about to be killed.

Elissimpark posted:

The life expectancy of rikishi is about 20 years less than the Japanese national average.

Yeah this is about what I've found. A sumo guy died last year at 70 (still 10+ years earlier than the national average) and he was considered ancient. Like 3 guys died in their 50's last year, one in his 40's... Like, this poo poo is alarming. Sports science needs to be on this poo poo.

Brut
Aug 21, 2007

Marching Powder posted:

Yeah this is about what I've found. A sumo guy died last year at 70 (still 10+ years earlier than the national average) and he was considered ancient. Like 3 guys died in their 50's last year, one in his 40's... Like, this poo poo is alarming. Sports science needs to be on this poo poo.

Who are you referring to and what were the causes of death? The most recent death I remember hearing about was Kakuryu's stablemaster, Izutsu-Oyakata and that was some kind of cancer (prostate I think?).

They don't tend to talk about this kind of thing on the official broadcasts, and as for sports science I feel like lately they're actually going backwards, I'm just gonna quote Wikipedia:

"Glossary of Sumo Terms posted:

kōshō seido (公傷制度)
Public Injury System. Introduced in 1972, this system allowed a wrestler who had been injured in the ring during a tournament to sit out the next tournament without any effect on his rank. It was abolished at the end of 2003 because it was felt too many wrestlers were missing tournaments with minor injuries.

Konstantin
Jun 20, 2005
And the Lord said, "Look, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is only the beginning of what they will do; nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them.
Sumo training methods are centuries old and quite brutal, here is a decent overview of what's involved. The guy who wrote that article acts as a unofficial liaison between the western sumo community and the professional organization in Japan, and his universal advice to young western sumo wrestlers who want to turn pro is "don't."

BONGHITZ
Jan 1, 1970

Rigel posted:

Ishiura got into a fistfight with one of his stablemates Hokaho (Ms16W). Yokozuna Hakuho stepped in to break up the fight.



Based on the (translated) reports, it appears that Ishiura instigated it, and it sounds like it was pretty much almost all his fault. Their oyakata reported the incident to the kyokai, so I bet Ishiura will be out of the tournament.

rip to a real one

some kinda jackal
Feb 25, 2003

 
 
Just pretend I posted that friendship ended meme but instead “fandom ended with ishiura, now enho is my tiny sumo crush”


Which is crushingly bad news for Enho’s career, given my track record.

Kenning
Jan 11, 2009

I really want to post goatse. Instead I only have these🍄.



Enho, watch out! You're going to get a <profound injury> in your <core skeletal/muscular structure>!

some kinda jackal
Feb 25, 2003

 
 

Kenning posted:

Enho, watch out! You're going to get a <profound injury> in your <core skeletal/muscular structure>!

Saving this quote for the inevitable.


:(

Shiroc
May 16, 2009

Sorry I'm late
The injuries and macho idiocy of this sport do fill me with lots of conflicted feelings. I really enjoy the actual bouts but I hate how terrible it is to all of the rikishi.

BONGHITZ
Jan 1, 1970

Its like I tell the girls, this is a bloodsport

Shiroc
May 16, 2009

Sorry I'm late
There will always be injuries in any sport but it doesn't need to be to the degree and scale that sumo currently has. Developments in sports medicine and dropping the idiocy would dramatically improve safety and wrestler longevity without impacting the actual bouts in the ring.

Rigel
Nov 11, 2016

Shiroc posted:

There will always be injuries in any sport but it doesn't need to be to the degree and scale that sumo currently has. Developments in sports medicine and dropping the idiocy would dramatically improve safety and wrestler longevity without impacting the actual bouts in the ring.

Any objection to this dirty western way of modern sports science thinking can be met with "here's a good sumo wrestler, his name was Kisenosato, he was the great Japanese hope of sumo. Lets see how his career turned out....."

Elissimpark
May 20, 2010

Bring me the head of Auguste Escoffier.

Brut posted:

Who are you referring to and what were the causes of death? The most recent death I remember hearing about was Kakuryu's stablemaster, Izutsu-Oyakata and that was some kind of cancer (prostate I think?).

They don't tend to talk about this kind of thing on the official broadcasts, and as for sports science I feel like lately they're actually going backwards, I'm just gonna quote Wikipedia:
Not all from the last year, but:

Chiyonofuji and Izutsu both had pancreatic cancer - obesity and diabetes are both risk factors.
Kitanoumi had colorectal, again obesity is a risk factor.
Tokintenku had lymphoma, but that was more poo poo luck than anything.
There was an oyakata three-four years ago who died for cardiac related reasons at 40, but his name escapes me.

I read an article a couple months ago about Gagamaru where he said he was in denial about diabetes for ages. I'd say that's be par for the course for a lot of wrestlers. At a glance through sumodb, yokozuna Kotozakura battled it for years.

Shiroc posted:

The injuries and macho idiocy of this sport do fill me with lots of conflicted feelings. I really enjoy the actual bouts but I hate how terrible it is to all of the rikishi.

Even without the macho bullshit, it's a pretty harsh thing to do to your body, pretty much the exact opposite of what you'd need to do to live long as possible. And the average weight of rikishi has been creeping up for decades.

Seeing a whole bunch of little guys coming through is great - maybe reversing that trend would minimise some of the health issues with the sport.

Marching Powder
Mar 8, 2008



stop the fucking fight, cornerman, your dude is fucking done and is about to be killed.

Brut posted:

Who are you referring to and what were the causes of death?

I'm referring to the guys in this video, skip to 7:20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVkLFx0_MZ0

Elissimpark
May 20, 2010

Bring me the head of Auguste Escoffier.

Rigel posted:

Any objection to this dirty western way of modern sports science thinking can be met with "here's a good sumo wrestler, his name was Kisenosato, he was the great Japanese hope of sumo. Lets see how his career turned out....."

There's a 2019 sumo round up in English, with an interview where Kisenosato talks about this. Phone posting, otherwise I'd link.

Marching Powder
Mar 8, 2008



stop the fucking fight, cornerman, your dude is fucking done and is about to be killed.

Konstantin posted:

Sumo training methods are centuries old and quite brutal, here is a decent overview of what's involved. The guy who wrote that article acts as a unofficial liaison between the western sumo community and the professional organization in Japan, and his universal advice to young western sumo wrestlers who want to turn pro is "don't."

Holy poo poo it's like MMA 20+ years ago. Pretty soon someone is going to open up a stable using modern understanding of training, rest / recovery, and nutrition and blow the competition out of the water for at least a decade or however long it takes for everyone to realise that they have to change if they want to win and then raise a new generation of fighters.

Marching Powder
Mar 8, 2008



stop the fucking fight, cornerman, your dude is fucking done and is about to be killed.
The training is so barbaric and ancient that a middle of the pack rikishi could take home a title tomorrow if he simply entered the tournament not carrying any injuries and not totally exhausted from years of sadistic 'training'. I'm serious. this is so bad that 'not injured' and 'not currently in a state of exhaustion' would transcend talent and skill at all levels of sumo. lol.

BONGHITZ
Jan 1, 1970

that's why you break em young

bessantj
Jul 27, 2004


Marching Powder posted:

The training is so barbaric and ancient that a middle of the pack rikishi could take home a title tomorrow if he simply entered the tournament not carrying any injuries and not totally exhausted from years of sadistic 'training'. I'm serious. this is so bad that 'not injured' and 'not currently in a state of exhaustion' would transcend talent and skill at all levels of sumo. lol.

It is amazing just how much they seem to flog themselves. yes I get that it can be a point of pride but these days professional sportspeople have such a wealth of information about proper training and recovery techniques available to them.

Marching Powder
Mar 8, 2008



stop the fucking fight, cornerman, your dude is fucking done and is about to be killed.
Everything is loving stupid about the training. The carrying injuries. The full contact fights every day. The training far past the point of exhaustion. The hazing. The abuse. And, fuelling all of it, the macho attitude.

I know most of you don't know much about MMA but this was no poo poo the exact same thing in the early years. Full contact smokers in the gym every day. Coaches punching students in their unguarded faces to 'train their chin' (does the complete opposite). The injuries. The drug use to mask the injuries.The 'train until you physically can't anymore' attitude. The early deaths... Then someone like GSP comes along doing this thing called a 'jab' and whose coach says things like 'If you do 20 pullups and need three days to recover and I just do 7 a day, I've done more than you in that time span' and instantly becomes completely unbeatable. Robbie Lawler drastically reduces full contact sparring and has a mid-career renaissance becoming the UFC champion.

If anyone has a spare few hundred thousand, I will give you a division 1 winner in about 5 years using only books I've bought on ebay and some heart rate monitors.

Brut
Aug 21, 2007

Elissimpark posted:

detailed info

Thanks, I hadn't heard of most of these.

Marching Powder posted:

I'm referring to the guys in this video, skip to 7:20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVkLFx0_MZ0

Ah yes, haven't kept with Chris' videos in a while, I didn't even realize Azumazeki-Oyakaya passed away too, drat.

Marching Powder posted:

If anyone has a spare few hundred thousand, I will give you a division 1 winner in about 5 years using only books I've bought on ebay and some heart rate monitors.

I totally believe you that you can fill a stable full of healthy guys funded somehow and they're gonna be there and be healthy and only fight when they're not injured, I just don't have any clue how those guys would end up climbing the ranks.

Marching Powder
Mar 8, 2008



stop the fucking fight, cornerman, your dude is fucking done and is about to be killed.

Brut posted:

I totally believe you that you can fill a stable full of healthy guys funded somehow and they're gonna be there and be healthy and only fight when they're not injured, I just don't have any clue how those guys would end up climbing the ranks.

i was being hyperbolic in that i'd also need a nutritionist and a sumo head coach for technique purposes, but what do you think would be holding them back from the top division?

Brut
Aug 21, 2007

Marching Powder posted:

i was being hyperbolic in that i'd also need a nutritionist and a sumo head coach for technique purposes, but what do you think would be holding them back from the top division?

MMA fighters get injured all the time and either fight through it or reschedule the fight, Sumo isn't gonna get rescheduled around your injures, you don't show up it counts a loss.

Here's what a fall from the top looks like in Sumo, followed by a recovery of health and climb back up:


You know how Dominick Cruz has been sitting out for 3 years but if he does come back they're gonna put him against a top 15 opponent? Imagine if instead, he had to start back up from the regionals, send him to win 10 in a row in some random promotion before getting to fight in the UFC again.

That's Terunofuji, by the way, due to a combination of Diabetes and bad knees he went from the second highest rank to the second lowest division, starting this tournament he's finally climbed back up to be fighting 15 days again, we'll see how that goes.

ilmucche
Mar 16, 2016

I think that's what's crazy about this. With the divisions you keep dropping down if you don't fight, so do you fight and hope you can scrape along well enough to stay up, or lose matches that would've already counted as losses if you didn't fight and drop down the ranks

Marching Powder
Mar 8, 2008



stop the fucking fight, cornerman, your dude is fucking done and is about to be killed.

Brut posted:

MMA fighters get injured all the time and either fight through it or reschedule the fight, Sumo isn't gonna get rescheduled around your injures, you don't show up it counts a loss.

Here's what a fall from the top looks like in Sumo, followed by a recovery of health and climb back up:


You know how Dominick Cruz has been sitting out for 3 years but if he does come back they're gonna put him against a top 15 opponent? Imagine if instead, he had to start back up from the regionals, send him to win 10 in a row in some random promotion before getting to fight in the UFC again.

That's Terunofuji, by the way, due to a combination of Diabetes and bad knees he went from the second highest rank to the second lowest division, starting this tournament he's finally climbed back up to be fighting 15 days again, we'll see how that goes.

Ok, now imagine Dominick Cruz was having smokers in the gym every day and training far past exhaustion with those injuries instead of taking time to rehab them.

e: My point being that injuries happen, but injuries happen at an absurd rate training in that fashion. Simply not doing that will leave you at an exponentially greater chance of good health come tournament time which will translate into much more success.

Marching Powder fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Jan 5, 2020

bessantj
Jul 27, 2004


Marching Powder posted:

Coaches punching students in their unguarded faces to 'train their chin' (does the complete opposite).

I forgot they used to do that. Crazy.

Rigel
Nov 11, 2016

I am putting together a new sumo thread for the combat sports subforum, because the current sumo thread is very old and outdated as hell, and this probably belongs in that subforum anyway.

The only thing I am lacking is a sufficiently goony January sumo basho title for the thread, so please feel free to make some submissions now. I'll probably post it in a few days.

Vaders Jester
Sep 9, 2009

:scotland:
So is it a Japanese sporting thing? I know that the dojos in Japanese wrestling are famously brutal for the "young lions" even with some of the now older guys trying to reform things.

BDA
Dec 10, 2007

Extremely grim and evil.

Vaders Jester posted:

So is it a Japanese sporting thing? I know that the dojos in Japanese wrestling are famously brutal for the "young lions" even with some of the now older guys trying to reform things.

Seems to be a problem with Japanese sports culture in general. For instance, high school baseball coaches are notorious for abusing the hell out of their best pitchers when tournament time rolls around. I found a story from 2018 about a guy being made to throw 881 pitches in two weeks -- that's four times as many as a Major League starter would throw.

Mekchu
Apr 10, 2012

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
It's a Japanese Sports Culture thing. There was a 30-for-30 podcast episode on the first Japanese player to cross over from the Nippon league to MLB and part of his issues with wanting to leave the Nippon league was that his coaches/general manager demanded that because he was such a good pitcher he had to keep pitching despite being injured because ~reasons (aka they were a crap team and in Japan as well as Korea they lean super heavy on the best players thus breaking them entirely rather than accepting they need time to heal/recuperate).

Edit - It's called The Loophole and is about Hideo Nomo.

https://30for30podcasts.com/episodes/the-loophole/

Edit 2 - Here's the relevant transcript

ANDREW MUSCATO: But in 1994 Nomo’s team, the Kintetsu Buffaloes, hired a new manager, Keishi Suzuki. Suzuki was a Hall of Fame pitcher — but also a real hard-rear end.

ROBERT WHITING: And his philosophy was — A pitcher should pitch until his arm falls off and that the best way to cure a sore arm is to go out and throw more — So he figured if he could do it then everybody else could.

ANDREW MUSCATO: Suzuki represented an old-school Japanese coaching style that Nomo had always resisted.

[NHK INTERVIEW, 1997

HIDEO NOMO: Coaches were very strict. They put more emphasis on attitude and choice of words than what you do in practice.]

ANDREW MUSCATO: Kozo Abe, is a longtime Tokyo Sports editor.

KOZO ABE: It’s Japanese traditional way of karate and the judo teacher says, “Do this way” and if you don’t do that teacher will get mad. That’s Japanese culture.

ANDREW MUSCATO: Nomo’s obedience to Suzuki landed him on the disabled list for most of the season.

ROBERT WHITING: Nomo said his right arm hurt so much he had to drive his car with his left hand. So that animosity towards Suzuki was the start of it all.

Mekchu fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Jan 5, 2020

Vaders Jester
Sep 9, 2009

:scotland:
Jesus, that's grim.

oystertoadfish
Jun 17, 2003

nomo was the first of the modern Japanese players in baseball but I'm gonna be pedantic and mention Masanori Murakami, the very first one, who did okay as a reliever but went back due to contractual obligations and wasn't followed until nomo thirty years later:


wiki posted:

In 1964, his team sent him, along with two other young players, to the San Francisco Giants single-A team Fresno as a baseball "exchange student". He was originally only scheduled to stay in the United States until June, but the Hawks neglected to call him back to Japan, and he stayed with the Giants for the rest of the season. In August of the same year, he was promoted to the majors, and on September 1, 1964, he became the first Japanese player to play in the major leagues
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masanori_Murakami

I have very little to add on the sumo, but I'll be watching

edit: there's more relevant info on Japanese sporting culture in this good article about the best Japanese mlb player of all time, ichiro Suzuki:

quote:

Japanese culture in general -- and Ichiro in particular -- remains influenced by remnants of bushido, the code of honor and ethics governing the samurai warrior class. Suffering reveals the way to greatness. When the nation opened up to the Western world in 1868, the language didn't even have a word to call games played for fun. Baseball got filtered through the prism of martial arts, and it remains a crucible rather than an escape. Japanese home run king Sadaharu Oh wrote in his memoir: "Baseball in America is a game that is born in spring and dies in autumn. In Japan it is bound to winter as the heart is to the body."

I don't know if that no word for fun games thing is for real but it's a nice article
http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/22624561/ichiro-suzuki-return-seattle-mariners-resolve-internal-battle

oystertoadfish fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Jan 5, 2020

fisting by many
Dec 25, 2009



High school baseball is a special case. A lot of high school teams live and die by their ace pitcher, especially the ones that aren't the perennial powerhouses that are able to recruit talent. But yes they overwork pitchers like mad and there really ought to be strict pitch limits.

It seems there is a culture shift happening on that front. Roki Sasaki is the latest pitching phenom, and there was a *big fuss* this year. He threw some ungodly amount of pitches in a Koshien qualifying tournament including a 12 inning complete game or something crazy like that in the semi-finals. The finals were the following day and the manager decided to sit him instead of completely destroying his arm. (Again, this was just a qualifier for Koshien -- just making the Koshien tournament is a huge deal and a dream for most players, but there was still a long road to go.) His team got squashed in the finals and people were very upset at the team for not sacrificing a teenager to the baseball gods to the point that the school was receiving death threats :(

BONGHITZ
Jan 1, 1970

There is not so much difference, between them and us

Marching Powder
Mar 8, 2008



stop the fucking fight, cornerman, your dude is fucking done and is about to be killed.

Rigel posted:

I am putting together a new sumo thread for the combat sports subforum, because the current sumo thread is very old and outdated as hell, and this probably belongs in that subforum anyway.

The only thing I am lacking is a sufficiently goony January sumo basho title for the thread, so please feel free to make some submissions now. I'll probably post it in a few days.

Sumo - Bulky heft, ancient refs, early deaths.

Fluffdaddy
Jan 3, 2009

There is some real weird orientalism going on here, to be real.

Marching Powder
Mar 8, 2008



stop the fucking fight, cornerman, your dude is fucking done and is about to be killed.

Fluffdaddy posted:

There is some real weird orientalism going on here, to be real.

If you are talking abou the training methodology from hundreds of years ago now being known as sub-optimal due to the massive advances in science, I disagree. Regardless, I'd like you do expand, because a respect and understanding for cultures of sport I follow is personally important to me.

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BONGHITZ
Jan 1, 1970

Everyone should watch the livestream so they get the prayers before and after each match. I'm here for the culture.

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