China Megathread - Their navy can be taken seriously or taken littorally

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > China Megathread - Their navy can be taken seriously or taken littorally

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Raenir Salazar: Nov 5, 2010; "According to Wikipedia" there is a black hole that emits zionist hawking radiation where my brain should have been

I really should just shut the fuck up and stop posting forever; College Slice

eSports Chaebol posted:

Does even Zenz claim over 100,000 Uighurs have been permanently disappeared?

Is this in response to anything in particular?

# ? Mar 25, 2024 21:41

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# ? Apr 23, 2024 10:51

eSports Chaebol: Feb 22, 2005; Yeah, actually, gamers in the house forever,

Raenir Salazar posted:

Is this in response to anything in particular?

The comparison was to Sri Lanka: suppose the PRC simply killed everyone suspected of supporting East Turkestan independence to the tune of tens of thousands of people, at least, and succeeded in wiping out separatism altogether. If they then ended all the extra surveillance and detention camps and vocational programs would we really call it not a genocide then?

# ? Mar 25, 2024 23:23

Raenir Salazar: Nov 5, 2010; "According to Wikipedia" there is a black hole that emits zionist hawking radiation where my brain should have been

I really should just shut the fuck up and stop posting forever; College Slice

eSports Chaebol posted:

The comparison was to Sri Lanka: suppose the PRC simply killed everyone suspected of supporting East Turkestan independence to the tune of tens of thousands of people, at least, and succeeded in wiping out separatism altogether. If they then ended all the extra surveillance and detention camps and vocational programs would we really call it not a genocide then?

I imagine "it depends"; probably to what degree the killing of a lot of people has on their cultural identity or to disperse them from their population centers.

# ? Mar 26, 2024 00:09

ronya: Nov 8, 2010; I'm the normal one.

You hate ridden fucks will regret your words when you eventually grow up.

Peace.

Conventionally, yes, genocide requires the special intent to systematically destroy a protected group

(which can be demonstrated through massive slaughter of a substantial number of the group but, failing which, it is sufficient to demonstrate a systematic destruction of leaders of the identity, like intellectuals or nationalists; this latter addresses a Polish intelligentsia/Bangladeshi War of Independence situation)

I've made this point before upthread, but this condition can be counterintuitively difficult to meet when adhoc ethnic violence is endemic. For example, Du�ko Sikirica etc. imprisoned ~2-3%+ of the entire Muslim population of Prijedor city in Bosnia in a concentration camp at Keraterm in inadequate conditions, on the basis of ethnic identity, and failed to protect a number of detainees from murder, rape/sexual assault, killings, beatings, torture, disappearances, etc. especially from Serbian militias, etc. and subsequently pled guility to crimes against humanity for persecution but not genocide. In particular, cited in the defendant's favour was that many acts were instead for personal gain (i.e., extortion or robbery) or revenge, and not eliminatory targeting of leaders, even if conducted by Serbian militias intruding into the camp to prey on vulnerable Bosniaks or Croats.

This is obviously an extreme example; it rests heavily on Sikirica and his compatriots allegedly not knowing about the wider genocide of Bosnian Muslims and Croats in the region by higher Serb authorities, hence leaving their actions to be interpreted in isolation rather than as part of a cohesive programme of genocide. But this is plausible in the chaos of disintegrating Yugoslavia! You might notice that this jurisprudence would penalize regimes that have cohesive rule of law whilst not being very effective in an atmosphere of lawlessness and general chaos that characterize failed states (a particularly sharp point after the rise of ISIS) - but that would be a logical outcome of attaching a special horror to genocide as a crime of systematic intent or effect of organized states.

So, anyway, China.

quote:

断代、断根、断联、断源一个不漏，彻底把'两面人'的根子铲干净、挖干净，誓与'两面人'斗争到底。

Break their lineage, break their roots, break their connections, and break their origins. Completely shovel up the roots of �two-faced people,� dig them out, and vow to fight these two-faced people until the end.

(not just rhetorical flourish; see e.g. this otherwise anodyne document circulated by the Kashgar prefecture government: "对有现实危害的人员，按照地委继续依法收押一批、继续教育培训一批、继续强制管控一批、继续原地盯控一批的要求（即�四个一批�），对�两面人�进行全面清理，做到应收尽收，坚决消除隐患。落实�五防��三学�要求，集中力量抓好职业技能教培中心管理工作。持续深入推进�断代、断根、断联、断源�措施，坚决斩断滋生暴恐分子的幕后黑手，坚决消除源头危害。". If you ever wondered how you would have responded to the banality of evil way back when, now's your chance to find out)

The particular problem for China is that its level of control is certainly uncontested, especially over the past decade following the 2014 Kunming knife attacks. When state capacity runs so deep - deep enough to intern what is certainly hundreds of thousands of people, if not a million, whilst maintaining an astoundingly intrusive level of surveillance and arbitrary repression on many more - it is hard to evade responsibility for any systematic outcomes.

Descriptions of camp conditions are certainly harrowing, e.g.:

quote:

From the few people released from internment in 2018, researchers have collected detailed information about living conditions in the camps. Omir Bekali, a Kazakh interned in the northern city of Qaramay, described being locked up almost 24 hours a day with eight other men, sharing beds and a single toilet under the watch of cameras. Internees were rarely permitted to take baths, or even wash their hands and feet, the latter being �equated with Islamic ablution� (Shih 2018) and therefore deemed �extremist�. Gulbahar Jelil, a Kazakhstani Uyghur interned in �r�mchi, described similar restrictions; the 30 women in her cell could shower only once a week, using one bar of soap divided into 30 pieces, and with two women showering together for one minute (Byler 2018a). Many former inmates describe camp food as poor quality, saying they were fed steamed buns or thin soup, and rarely given meat, and that food poisoning was common (Denyer 2018; Special Correspondent 2018). Gulbahar Jelil told of a starvation diet of 600 calories per day, and of how guards punished internees for speaking Uyghur by reducing their diet still further (Byler 2018a). The camps are reported to be badly overcrowded; in May 2018, a security official in Korla, a city just south of the Tianshan mountains, admitted that camps were so full that officials had begged police to stop bringing people in (The Economist 2018; see also Byler 2018a).

Internees are required to study the Chinese language (including classical Chinese texts), Chinese laws on Islam and politics, the �spirit of the CCP 19th Party Congress�, China's policies on minorities and religion, and the state-sanctioned version of Chinese history (Denyer 2018; Rajagopalan 2017; Shih 2018). Like internment itself, study is not undertaken voluntarily. One Kazakh former inmate described being locked in classrooms and monitored by guards. He noted that elderly detainees, often farmers who could barely write, were required to learn 3,000 Chinese characters. This often proved impossible: in his two months there, he did not see anyone released (Kuo 2018). Eldost, a Uyghur former broadcaster for Xinjiang Television recruited to teach in a camp, explained how when teaching the Three Character Classic (Sanzi jing, a Song dynasty text used to teach children Confucian values), he would make up mnemonic devices to help older internees learn. He advised them to stop using religious phrases, such as �praise God� in Arabic and Uyghur, to avoid punishment (Shih 2018). In a camp in Qaramay, internees were taught that the indigenous sheep-herding Central Asian people of Xinjiang were �backward and yoked by slavery� before being �liberated� by the CCP (Shih 2018).

Internees are required to conduct self-criticisms reminiscent of Cultural Revolution times (Catris 2018). Those who had returned from foreign travel or study were made to write self-criticisms confessing how �ungrateful� they had been to go abroad when the CCP had created such a high living standard for them (Famularo 2018, 67). Often, self-criticism is linked to religious practice, cast as �extremism�. In two-hour sessions, internees had to recite slogans such as �We will oppose extremism, we will oppose separatism, we will oppose terrorism.� Alternatively, in four-hour sessions, guest lecturers from the local police or judiciary taught internees the dangers of Islam, separatism and extremism, then drilled them with quizzes. Instructors demanded, �Do you obey Chinese law or sharia?� Then, each internee would have to present a self-criticism of their religious history, while criticizing and being criticized by their classmates (Denyer 2018; Kuo 2018; Shih 2018). One former internee summarized this as �endless brainwashing and humiliation� (Denyer 2018).

Camp internees are expected to demonstrate patriotism and gratitude to the CCP. Former inmates described being forced to participate in Chinese flag-raising ceremonies, to chant slogans thanking and wishing long life to Xi Jinping, to perform military-style drills, and to sing the Chinese national anthem and pro-Communist �red songs� (Denyer 2018; Dooley 2018; Kuo 2018; Shih 2018; Special Correspondent 2018). Often, they would be required to chant �Thank the Party! Thank the Motherland! Thank President Xi� to earn or give thanks for a meagre meal (Denyer 2018; The Economist 2018; Kuo 2018; Shih 2018).

It has been rightly observed that while the Xinjiang internment camps share a mass character and common purpose (quarantining a specific population within the polity) with twentieth-century concentration camps, they do not (yet) reflect the latter's brutality (Roberts 2018a, 251). Yet while we are not seeing a systematic policy of extermination, reports of physical violence and torture have emerged. Former detainees recounted being shackled, deprived of sleep, and beaten and hung from ceilings and walls (Human Rights Watch 2018, 33�36). Some spoke of lights being permanently turned on (Special Correspondent 2018). Kairat Samarkand, a Kazakh detained outside Qaramagay for almost four months in 2018, was forced to wear an outfit of iron claws and rods that kept him immobile in a star position for 12 hours, after refusing to make his bed (Kuo 2018). He disclosed that those who disobeyed camp rules would be placed in handcuffs and ankle cuffs for up to 12 hours. If the disobedience continued, they might be subjected to waterboarding or strapped to a metal �tiger chair� for 24 hours (Denyer 2018; Shih 2018). A former Uyghur internee, Ablet Tursun Tohti, said that internees in a Khot�n camp were forced to run, with those who did not run fast enough beaten with a belt and kicked. If they could not recite Chinese laws, they would again be beaten (Sudworth 2018). In a recent testimony, one male survivor spoke of being subjected to mass rape by more than 20 camp guards (Chao 2019). Those deemed �religious extremists� may be particularly prone to physical abuse. Eldost witnessed 20 new arrivals, all of whom had studied religion in the Middle East, being beaten by guards (Shih 2018).

Nor do women escape physical abuse. In her testimony to the Washington Press Club on 26 November 2018, camp survivor Mihrigul Tursun wept as she recounted how she was separated from her young triplets during internment in 2015; one subsequently died in unclear circumstances, while the others developed health problems. During a second internment in 2017, she was interrogated for four days without sleep and subjected to an intrusive medical examination. The third time, Tursun spent three months in a prison cell with 60 other women. Inmates had to take turns to lie down and sleep (there being insufficient space). They were forced to take pills that made them faint and a white liquid that caused bleeding in some women and loss of menstruation in others (Al Jazeera 2018). Identical conditions were related by Gulbahar Jelil, who stated that women were given pills that made them �sit quietly� (Byler 2018a). Once, Tursun recalled, she was locked in a high chair and given electric shocks via a device strapped to her head, causing loss of consciousness. Stating that nine women from her cell had died during that time, Tursun told reporters: �I thought that I would rather die than go through this torture and begged them to kill me� (Al Jazeera 2018).

Psychological torture in the camps is well documented. Omir Bekali observed: �They brainwash you, you must become like a robot. Listen to whatever the party says, listen to the party's words, follow the party� (Denyer 2018). After 20 days, he had wanted to kill himself: �The psychological pressure is enormous. � I still think about it every night, until the sun rises� (Shih 2018). After three months of �lessons�, Kairat Samarkand had bashed his head against a wall to try to kill himself, following which staff threatened him with an extended sentence (Shih 2018). Former internee Guli similarly explained how guards regularly warned she would be kept in prison for another six months, and shouted at inmates for speaking, approaching a window, or not speaking Chinese (Kuo 2018). Emotional torture has sometimes led to breakdown. According to a Kazakh witness in northern Altay, in April 2018, 20 local Kazakhs suffered mental breakdowns following incarceration. They had reportedly been sleep-deprived, forbidden from using the bathroom, and forced to wear helmets that produced noise for 21 hours each day. When they became unstable, officials transferred them to a psychiatric institute (ChinaAid 2018). In an �r�mchi camp, Gulbahar Jelil observed young women screaming, hitting their heads against the wall, and smearing faeces on the wall. She added that such women �soon disappeared�, while the remaining internees would tell one another to �pray on the inside� (Byler 2018a). These cases corroborate information given by respondents in �r�mchi in summer 2018, who stated that only the mentally ill are released from the camps (Smith Finley 2018).

Mass internment is splitting up families. Internment of adults aged 15�55 was so widespread by spring 2018 that officials from Xinjiang's agriculture department acknowledged: �All that's left in the homes are the elderly, weak women and children� (Dooley 2018). The regional government had evidently begun to prepare for the planned separation of parents and children at the start of 2017, when it budgeted to build or expand at least 45 orphanages, referred to as children's �welfare centres� or �protection centres�. All would be located in Khot�n, Kashgar, Aqsu and Qizilsu, southern prefectures that would experience internment on the largest scale (Wang and Kang 2018). The government claims that children of detained parents are warmly cared for at special �schools� (Hoshur 2019). But local sources suggest that these children are regularly sent to overcrowded orphanages, �locked up like farm animals� and given meat just once a week within a diet of �rice soup� (Hoshur 2019). Lacking trust in these institutions, detainees� relatives have frequently resisted handing children over. Yet the state often prevents extended family members from caring for the children themselves (Byler 2018b). An exiled Uyghur mother in Turkey learned in November 2017 that her sister-in-law had only been allowed to take her four children, resident at the Khot�n City Kindness Kindergarten, home for one night (Wang and Kang 2018).

This said, we do not know how systematic these conditions are. Incidents of torture or rape are bad but they are not genocidal; only the systematic torture of Uighur intellectuals (for example) would be genocidal. By successfully putting Uighur intellectuals and celebrities in camps, China has put itself in a position where it is responsible for their care! e.g., other countries in the region all also set out an acceptable/unacceptable Islam by other countries in the region and engage in state repression including torture and disappearances to enforce this - the immediate neighbours Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, and Uzbekistan all do so, with Tajikistan and Karimov-period Uzbekistan being notable, especially after the Taliban victory in the Afghan civil war in the late 1990s - but their repressions are not comparably thorough by a longshot.

We do know the government of China is not cooperating with international observers in verifying conditions (e.g., the 2022 OHCHR commission was not able to do so). Given what we know how aborigine residential schools and concentration camps with an explicit mandate of assimilation and not very much funding to do so have typically turned out in the West, it does seem only too plausible that conditions are systematic.

My own take is that China is still responsive to international pressure to improve conditions, to tighten adherence to the notional mission of re-education and deradicalization, and to discourage local camp administrators from pursuing their own ad-hoc agendas, so that pressure is helping mitigate what could very plausibly rapidly escalate into a genocide. We would only probably find out for real well after the dust settles years from now, by which it would be too late to reverse a successful genocide. Current conditions create a state of abject terror and repression, but that is still preferable to genocide.

ronya fucked around with this message at 08:46 on Mar 27, 2024

# ? Mar 26, 2024 07:52

Qtotonibudinibudet: Nov 7, 2011; Omich poluyobok, skazhi ty narkoman? ya prosto tozhe gde to tam zhivu, mogli by vmeste uyobyvat' narkotiki

ronya posted:

the immediate neighbours Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, and Uzbekistan all do so, with Tajikistan and Karimov-period Uzbekistan being notable, especially after the Taliban victory in the Afghan civil war in the late 1990s - but their repressions are not comparably thorough by a longshot.

the Tajikistani government's treatment of the Pamiris is... not great, and worsening, but yeah, it's pretty hard to outdo China here

# ? Mar 27, 2024 18:32

GoutPatrol: Oct 17, 2009; *Stupid Babby*

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/02/..._source=twitter

Very large quake this morning. Several buildings down on the east coast. My wife was on the MRT this morning while it happened, the car stopped and she was able to get off and get on a bus to finish getting to work.

Still aftershocks going on right now, literally as I type this.

# ? Apr 3, 2024 03:14

ronya: Nov 8, 2010; I'm the normal one.

You hate ridden fucks will regret your words when you eventually grow up.

Peace.

This seems fairly important: Duterte has acknowledged the long-denied existence of a secret 2017 "gentlemen's agreement" deal with Xi to cease repairing the BRP Sierrra Madre.

The tension between the West and Duterte was always Western opposition to his war on drugs (or, specifically, the ability of Philippine NGOs to mobilize Western pressure), so recent events may reinforce that.

ronya fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Apr 14, 2024

# ? Apr 14, 2024 18:13

AlternateNu: May 5, 2005; ドーナツダメ！

So, every year, USINDOPACOM hosts a science & technology conference in Honolulu which typically brings in about 1700 attendees and presenters from across the US's allied spectrum and the MIC. It happened about a month ago.

On day 2 in the main ballroom, there was a panel on Joint Intermediate Force Capabilities with a panel made up primarily of folks from the JIFCO. The guest panelist was MGEN Arvin Lagamon who is the Deputy Chief of Staff for Civil-Military Operations for the Philippines. For obvious reasons, panels and panelists are generally refrained from calling out China in specific terms during these open sessions.

But I guess something changed because the JIFCO panel was basically 20 minutes of JIFC stuff and then 40 minutes of Lagamon calling out China including refutations of the Nine-Dash Line and claims over Taiwan. He had slides and all. It was kind of funny.

# ? Apr 14, 2024 19:49

Tei: Feb 19, 2011

ronya posted:

Conventionally, yes, genocide requires the special intent to systematically destroy a protected group

You are obviusly informed, but I am surprised by this redefinition. Is not what is on the dictionary.

If I find a system to kill every white human being in the planet, based on that definition.. is not a genocide because is not a protected group? what is a protected group?, why we need this definition.

I apologice in advance, I think is better to ask than to remain ignorant.

# ? Apr 14, 2024 22:44

Raenir Salazar: Nov 5, 2010; "According to Wikipedia" there is a black hole that emits zionist hawking radiation where my brain should have been

I really should just shut the fuck up and stop posting forever; College Slice

Tei posted:

You are obviusly informed, but I am surprised by this redefinition. Is not what is on the dictionary.

If I find a system to kill every white human being in the planet, based on that definition.. is not a genocide because is not a protected group? what is a protected group?, why we need this definition.

I apologice in advance, I think is better to ask than to remain ignorant.

I think "protected" was meant to mean "minority or marginalized" group within the context of the majority group of a particular nation doing the act; as that's usually the practical context in which it occurs. Very rarely can a minority group perform such an act against a more powerful group due to the logistical and practical efforts involve, but maybe the conquest of the New World counts? But looking at it entirely in a more modern or hypothetical context, if I supposed a hypothetical scenario where you were to develop a genetically engineered deadly virus to only target a specific ethnic group in order to wipe them out, regardless of in/out group relations to power, I think reasonable people would still agree that's genocide even if that group is the majority or most powerful group.

If like the Elves in a setting like the Witcher develop some kind of magic curse to wipe out all the humans, even though humans are not only the majority and the group in power, and based off the TV show are currently oppressing the Elves, that would still be genocide for the Elves to do that yes regardless of whatever justification one could derive arguing that it is in self-defence at whatever point in time of the events of the show.

Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Apr 14, 2024

# ? Apr 14, 2024 23:05

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# ? Apr 23, 2024 10:51

ronya: Nov 8, 2010; I'm the normal one.

You hate ridden fucks will regret your words when you eventually grow up.

Peace.

Specifically, the groupings identified by the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide ("national, ethnic, racial or religious group"). This does not include political, economic, gender, etc. identities, as a point much agonized in the 1980s:

quote:

2 . The groups protected:

30. The lack of clarity about which groups are, and are not, protected has made the Convention less effective and popularly understood,than should be the case. The 1948 Convention enumerates groups protected as "a national, ethnical, racial or religious group", without defining such terms. (21) Differing views have been expressed as to what extent the terms "national" or "ethnical" groups include minorities. The Nazi policy was also to exterminate the sexual minority group of homosexuals. It is recommended that the definition should be extended to include a sexual group such as women, men, or homosexuals. A victim group might in fact constitute either a numerical minority or a majority in a country, as the Hutu in Burundi. Some assistance may be forthcoming from the Sub-Commission, which has been mandated by the Commission on Human Rights to consider and propose a definition of minority.

31. It is noteworthy that the definition does not exclude cases where the victims are part of the violator's own group. The United Nations Rapporteur on the mass-killings in Kampuchea designated this slaughter as "auto-genocide", a term implying an internal mass destruction of a significant part of the members of one's own group (E/CN.4/sR.1510). ...

34. A considerable number of commentators on the Convention have also criticized its omission to protect political, economic, sexual or social groups, despite the inclusion in the examples of genocide cited in resolution 96/1 of the destruction of "racial, religious, political and other groups". (25)

35. After considerable debate, the Sixth Committee decided not to include political groups among those protected by the Convention. (26) Opposition to the proposal was forcefully led by the Soviet Union's representative. The arguments advanced against the inclusion of political groups were, in essence, that:

(a) a political group had no stable, permanent and clear-cut characteristics in that it did not constitute an inevitable and homogeneous grouping, being based on the will of its members and not on factors independent of that will;

(b) the inclusion of political groups would preclude the acceptance of the Convention by the greatest possible number of States and the acceptance of an international criminal jurisdiction, because it would involve the United Nations in the internal political struggles of each country;

(c) such inclusion would create difficulties for legally established Governments in their preventive actions against subversive elements;

(d) the protection of political groups would raise the question of protection under the Convention for economic (27) and professional groups; and

(e) the protection of political and other groups should be ensured outside the Convention, under national legislation and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

36. In support of the inclusion of political groups it was and is argued that it is logical and right for them to be treated like religious groups, a distinguishing mark of both types of group being the common beliefs which unite their members. Specific examples culled from the recent-history of Nazism prove that political groups are perfectly identifiable and, given the persecution to which they were subjected in an age of ideological conflict, protection is essential. During the debate the French representative presciently argued that "whereas in the past crimes of genocide had been committed on racial or religious grounds, it was clear that in the future they would be committed mainly on political grounds", and this view received strong support from other representatives. In an era of ideology, people are killed for ideological reasons. (28) Many observers find difficulty in understanding why the principles Underlying the Convention would not be equally applicable in the case of mass killings intended to exterminate, for instance, communists or kulaks. In addition, in some cases of horrendous massacre it is not easy to determine which of overlapping political, economic, national, racial, ethnical or religious actors was the determinant one. Is, to take but two examples, the crime of Apartheid primarily racial, political or economic? Or was the selective genocide in Burundi intrinsically political or ethnic in its intent? Most genocide has at least some political tinge, and a considerable number of the Nazis' mass-killings were political. It has been argued that leaving political and other groups beyond the purported protection of the Convention offers a wide and dangerous loophole which permits any designated group to be exterminated, ostensibly under the excuse that this is for political reasons. (29)

UN Whitaker Report on Genocide, 1985,. PART II B (B) Analysis of the Convention.

(The killings in Burundi at least notionally maintained that they were not setting out to ethnically purge Hutus, who formed 85% of the population, but instead Ntare monarchists real or imagined; it's instructive to compare the contemporaneous Bangladesh genocide which similarly targeted Bangladeshi elites, but was conducted by the then-West Pakistan forces. The latter had a place to retreat to. Conversely the later Rwandan genocide would be pretty upfront on their intentions).

In the 1990s the enthusiasm for expanding the definition of genocide, or elevating 'democide' to the same level, ebbed after Rwanda and Bosnia gently reminded people that undisguised unmitigated ethnic genocide can still suddenly emerge. If the open embrace of the intentional destruction of ethnic groups is to be held as the highest crime, it must have a greater odium on it than the concealed, obfuscated destruction of ethnic groups.

# ? Apr 15, 2024 05:19

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > China Megathread - Their navy can be taken seriously or taken littorally

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