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evol262
Nov 30, 2010
#!/usr/bin/perl

I'm just in shock that Hyper-v doesn't support ova

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Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.


OVF import/export is an SCVMM feature.

Pile Of Garbage
May 28, 2007

The poster formerly known as piss cheese-cube.





Is this an OK place to talk about cloud virtualisation or is there another thread? Interested in hearing peoples experiences with Azure, specifically the new Resource Manager front-end. So far I've found some hilarious bugs with the Azure PowerShell 1.0.1 cmdlets (Mainly weird type handling and undocumented type restrictions for parameter arguments) and the Dashboard exposes some weird undocumented poo poo. Also if you're looking to deploy a Check Point VM with multiple NICs in RM then I may be able to help (Still not sure if it's 100% supported).

HPL
Aug 28, 2002

Worst case scenario.

I've messed around with Azure. It's sloooooow. It's okay if you're logging in very early in the morning, but after that, it's back to molasses. What am I doing wrong?

PCjr sidecar
Jan 26, 2011

dude, you gotta end it on the rhyme



cheese-cube posted:

Is this an OK place to talk about cloud virtualisation or is there another thread? Interested in hearing peoples experiences with Azure, specifically the new Resource Manager front-end. So far I've found some hilarious bugs with the Azure PowerShell 1.0.1 cmdlets (Mainly weird type handling and undocumented type restrictions for parameter arguments) and the Dashboard exposes some weird undocumented poo poo. Also if you're looking to deploy a Check Point VM with multiple NICs in RM then I may be able to help (Still not sure if it's 100% supported).

It's fine here, there's also http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...hreadid=3702086 but it's pretty slow.

Pile Of Garbage
May 28, 2007

The poster formerly known as piss cheese-cube.





HPL posted:

I've messed around with Azure. It's sloooooow. It's okay if you're logging in very early in the morning, but after that, it's back to molasses. What am I doing wrong?

Do you mean the dashboard? I'm working in SEA and honestly the RM dashboard has been surprisingly responsive for me all times of the day.

PCjr sidecar posted:

It's fine here, there's also http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...hreadid=3702086 but it's pretty slow.

Cool thanks.

Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.


cheese-cube posted:

Is this an OK place to talk about cloud virtualisation or is there another thread? Interested in hearing peoples experiences with Azure, specifically the new Resource Manager front-end. So far I've found some hilarious bugs with the Azure PowerShell 1.0.1 cmdlets (Mainly weird type handling and undocumented type restrictions for parameter arguments) and the Dashboard exposes some weird undocumented poo poo. Also if you're looking to deploy a Check Point VM with multiple NICs in RM then I may be able to help (Still not sure if it's 100% supported).
There's the cloud computing megathread here which is probably a better fit:
http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...hreadid=3702086

HPL
Aug 28, 2002

Worst case scenario.

cheese-cube posted:

Do you mean the dashboard? I'm working in SEA and honestly the RM dashboard has been surprisingly responsive for me all times of the day.


Cool thanks.

The dashboard itself is fine. If I remote into a machine and try to do anything, it's like going back 10 years in time as far as the responsiveness of the computer goes (click "OK", go grab a coffee). I guess I need a better account to run anything steadily.

Tab8715
May 20, 2006

NOBODY WANTS TO HEAR YOUR NIGHTCORE GARBAGE, MORON

cheese-cube posted:

Is this an OK place to talk about cloud virtualisation or is there another thread? Interested in hearing peoples experiences with Azure, specifically the new Resource Manager front-end. So far I've found some hilarious bugs with the Azure PowerShell 1.0.1 cmdlets (Mainly weird type handling and undocumented type restrictions for parameter arguments) and the Dashboard exposes some weird undocumented poo poo. Also if you're looking to deploy a Check Point VM with multiple NICs in RM then I may be able to help (Still not sure if it's 100% supported).

I work with Azure on a daily basis. Feel free to start a discussion in the cloud thread I'd love to participate.

HPL posted:

I've messed around with Azure. It's sloooooow. It's okay if you're logging in very early in the morning, but after that, it's back to molasses. What am I doing wrong?

What are you doing? It true the new portal was a little iffy during preview but now it's rock solid and essentially fast as a local fat-client.

If it's RDP well unless you have ExpressRoute or a VPN to Azure it's going to be a little slow plus your not just on a environment that's only virtualized but shared with other customers. It's going less responsive than traditional vert.

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

"You are the best poster... do not let anyone say otherwise."


What's the current status of running MacOS guest on Windows or BSD host? I tried to look around but most information seems to be either wrong, outdated, or both.

kiwid
Sep 30, 2013

edit: also id embrace my red text with the pride is deserves.

The environment I currently work in is super lovely when it comes to hardware. We have a tonne of "beige box" desktops running as servers all due to having literally a zero dollar budget for the past 7 years. Luckily, the company was bought out and we have new owners/management and have been approved to purchase some brand new equipment.

The idea here is to purchase a Nimble SAN and a couple beefy servers and virtualize everything. I'm pretty good with VMware but only from a home lab environment. I've never really touched a Nimble SAN (or an enterprise storage device) before but I will be the one in charge of purchasing this equipment and setting it up and I'm confident I can do so (I've been on a Nimble course).

The one problem I have though is that I don't understand how backups now work. Before, we just used software like BackupAssist or Backup Exec that would use a traditional file-level backup technique and backup to either tape or NAS. The tapes would be taken offsite and the NAS would be sync'd to an offsite NAS.

In a virtualized world, I have no understanding of backups and was hoping someone could explain this to me? We'll be using VMware Essentials Plus and Veeam Essentials Plus. Originally I planned on backing up to NAS with Veeam but how does Veeam work? Does Veeam backup file level or does it backup snapshots or something? Also my CDW rep told me instead of backing up to a NAS, I should get a second Nimble and use it as a DR site. Would this eliminate the need for backups?

Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.


kiwid posted:

The environment I currently work in is super lovely when it comes to hardware. We have a tonne of "beige box" desktops running as servers all due to having literally a zero dollar budget for the past 7 years. Luckily, the company was bought out and we have new owners/management and have been approved to purchase some brand new equipment.

The idea here is to purchase a Nimble SAN and a couple beefy servers and virtualize everything. I'm pretty good with VMware but only from a home lab environment. I've never really touched a Nimble SAN (or an enterprise storage device) before but I will be the one in charge of purchasing this equipment and setting it up and I'm confident I can do so (I've been on a Nimble course).

The one problem I have though is that I don't understand how backups now work. Before, we just used software like BackupAssist or Backup Exec that would use a traditional file-level backup technique and backup to either tape or NAS. The tapes would be taken offsite and the NAS would be sync'd to an offsite NAS.

In a virtualized world, I have no understanding of backups and was hoping someone could explain this to me? We'll be using VMware Essentials Plus and Veeam Essentials Plus. Originally I planned on backing up to NAS with Veeam but how does Veeam work? Does Veeam backup file level or does it backup snapshots or something? Also my CDW rep told me instead of backing up to a NAS, I should get a second Nimble and use it as a DR site. Would this eliminate the need for backups?
Veeam takes snapshots and backs them up to a file store. Because it's snapshot-based, your volumes must be able to be snapshotted. In other words, if you have any RDMs, they must be in Virtual mode or you won't be able to back them up. Your VMFS datastores must also have enough space to store the snapshot deltas, so be careful when using snapshot-based backup products on volumes that see a lot of write I/O. For your environment, this probably won't be a concern. Veeam historically, like most backup products, has had a nasty tendency to poo poo snapshots all over your production environment and never, ever clean them up, sometimes leaving a chain hundreds of snapshots long on a VM. Make sure you're periodically auditing your environment for this.

Veeam does inline block deduplication and compression on the store to save space. Through the Veeam GUI, you can do file-level restores on supported filesystems. It accomplishes this by peeking inside the VMDKs and reading the data out with a filesystem driver. Other backup products like PHD Virtual can expose the snapshot to a guest through iSCSI so your filesystem support is basically unlimited, but I don't think Veeam has this feature. If you're mostly a Windows shop, this is largely irrelevant for you anyway.

If you have a need for some feature of a file-level backup product because Veeam doesn't do something you need (Sharepoint document-level restores, Exchange mailbox or item restores, etc.), it will continue to work fine on a virtualized server.

Maneki Neko
Oct 27, 2000



mobby_6kl posted:

What's the current status of running MacOS guest on Windows or BSD host? I tried to look around but most information seems to be either wrong, outdated, or both.

Technical or legal?

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005



Oven Wrangler

gently caress, VMware's support is atrocious these days.

adorai
Nov 2, 2002

10/27/04 Never forget

Grimey Drawer

kiwid posted:

my CDW rep told me instead of backing up to a NAS, I should get a second Nimble and use it as a DR site. Would this eliminate the need for backups?
that's what we do and it is the backup, it doesn't eliminate them.

YOLOsubmarine
Oct 19, 2004

When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."


Vulture Culture posted:

If you have a need for some feature of a file-level backup product because Veeam doesn't do something you need (Sharepoint document-level restores, Exchange mailbox or item restores, etc.), it will continue to work fine on a virtualized server.

VEEAM can do item level recovery from Sharepoint and Exchange.

Moey
Oct 22, 2010

I LIKE TO MOVE IT


adorai posted:

that's what we do and it is the backup, it doesn't eliminate them.

Seconding this. I do cross-site replication with our Nimble units for DR (site falls into a sink hole), but use a different product for on site backups.

Erwin
Feb 17, 2006



Vulture Culture posted:

Other backup products like PHD Virtual can expose the snapshot to a guest through iSCSI so your filesystem support is basically unlimited, but I don't think Veeam has this feature. If you're mostly a Windows shop, this is largely irrelevant for you anyway.
Veeam can expose the VMDK and other VM files to the hypervisor via NFS, so you can actually spin the VM back up (isolated if necessary) to pull items out. Not sure if it has built-in support to attach the backed up VMDK to a running VM, but at least this serves to abstract away obscure file systems for item-level recovery.

bull3964
Nov 18, 2000

DO YOU HEAR THAT? THAT'S THE SOUND OF ME PATTING MYSELF ON THE BACK.

After Code Spaces, I don't think I will ever sleep completely soundly unless there's an offline and disconnected failsafe copy of critical data somewhere. Some people just want to watch the world burn.

3,2,1 rule

3 Copies of data
2 Different media types
1 offsite

Dr. Arbitrary
Mar 15, 2006



Bleak Gremlin

I've got a VMware question.

I've got two ways of measuring CPU usage on a windows VM. _Total Processor and _Total VM processor.

It's my understanding that the VM Processor info is provided by VMware Tools.

My issue is that VM processor seems to register far higher than the average use reported by the OS.

The two CPUs might be at 10% and 15% while VM processor is at 50%

Is there something weird going on like the VM is spending a lot of time waiting for CPU time or maybe stuff that's going on at the host level like backups etc.?

Moey
Oct 22, 2010

I LIKE TO MOVE IT


bull3964 posted:

After Code Spaces, I don't think I will ever sleep completely soundly unless there's an offline and disconnected failsafe copy of critical data somewhere. Some people just want to watch the world burn.

3,2,1 rule

3 Copies of data
2 Different media types
1 offsite

What's your media type other than disk? Please don't say tape.

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

"You are the best poster... do not let anyone say otherwise."


Maneki Neko posted:

Technical or legal?

Technical. I just want to test something for my personal amusement and not production business purpose.

bull3964
Nov 18, 2000

DO YOU HEAR THAT? THAT'S THE SOUND OF ME PATTING MYSELF ON THE BACK.

Moey posted:

What's your media type other than disk? Please don't say tape.

Tape. Sorry.

kiwid
Sep 30, 2013

edit: also id embrace my red text with the pride is deserves.

So if we do go the backup to QNAP NAS route, how does the QNAP hook up to the network? Do you guys put it on your core switches via iscsi then have the vaeem VM attach to the qnap or does the hypervisor attach to the qnap and you expose VMDK's to it?

Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.


bull3964 posted:

Tape. Sorry.
LTO-7 is pretty boss

HPL
Aug 28, 2002

Worst case scenario.

Finally got around to installing and using the Fling VMWare host client. Big, big props to whoever built that thing. The console works way better than the vSphere Client console. I can actually use a mouse properly in Linux now.

The install is so simple there's no excuse for not running this if you're using ESXi.

EDIT: Hmmm. When you're running a console in a new browser window, how do you send a ctrl-alt-delete?

HPL fucked around with this message at Dec 19, 2015 around 18:01

1000101
May 14, 2003

BIRTHDAY BIRTHDAY BIRTHDAY BIRTHDAY BIRTHDAY BIRTHDAY FRUITCAKE!

HPL posted:


EDIT: Hmmm. When you're running a console in a new browser window, how do you send a ctrl-alt-delete?

Try control-alt-insert.

HPL
Aug 28, 2002

Worst case scenario.

1000101 posted:

Try control-alt-insert.

Already tried that. Didn't work. Guess I'll stick to running console in a non-full browser tab.

Hadlock
Nov 9, 2004



HPL posted:

You can export VMs in Hyper-V. All the giblets will be in a single directory. It won't be as a single file, but I'm sure there's a PowerShell command that'll import it for them. If worst comes to worst, remote into their computer and import it for them.

By "a bunch of customers", I mean like, 1000 over the next year.

Vulture Culture posted:

OVF import/export is an SCVMM feature.

It looks like that software (System Center 2012 R2 Virtual Machine Manager) is $1300 every two years, so my customer also has to have a $1300 copy of SCVMM to import the OVF I built for them?

HPL
Aug 28, 2002

Worst case scenario.

Hadlock posted:

By "a bunch of customers", I mean like, 1000 over the next year.

Create a .msi installer file that has the VM files in it and runs a PowerShell script to import it?

I'm hoping someone comes up with a proper solution because I'm curious too.

Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.


Hadlock posted:

It looks like that software (System Center 2012 R2 Virtual Machine Manager) is $1300 every two years, so my customer also has to have a $1300 copy of SCVMM to import the OVF I built for them?
Yeah it's a huge load of horseshit

On the other hand there's always VirtualBox

BangersInMyKnickers
Nov 3, 2004

I have a thing for courageous dongles



Dr. Arbitrary posted:

I've got a VMware question.

I've got two ways of measuring CPU usage on a windows VM. _Total Processor and _Total VM processor.

It's my understanding that the VM Processor info is provided by VMware Tools.

My issue is that VM processor seems to register far higher than the average use reported by the OS.

The two CPUs might be at 10% and 15% while VM processor is at 50%

Is there something weird going on like the VM is spending a lot of time waiting for CPU time or maybe stuff that's going on at the host level like backups etc.?

This is often a matter of how CPU scheduling works with a hypervisor. Let say you have a two vCPU VM where most of the work is being done on a single thread in your main application, so vCPU 1 runs at about 50% load while vCPU 2 handles all the background stuff and sits at around 5%. Inside your OS you're going to see about 28% CPU load from that for all the available cycles that could possibly be used so there's you VM processor stat. Total Processor looks at the impact of the entire VM on the underlying hardware/hypervisor. With two vCPUs which are associated with two cores in hardware and only one of them is on a 50% duty cycle, the hypervisor has to lock all cores associated with the VM even if only one of them is heavily executing instructions because the hypervisor doesn't have that level of insight in to how the guess OS's resource scheduler is going to use its available vCPUs. So in this situation, the hypervisor sees a 50% Total Processor load to match the workload on vCPU 1 while the additional cycles on vCPU 2 are essentially locked out and wasted. This is why VMware strongly advises starting your VMs with 1vCPU and then scaling them up one at a time as load demands it, as it helps minimize this type of waste.

adorai
Nov 2, 2002

10/27/04 Never forget

Grimey Drawer

BangersInMyKnickers posted:

This is often a matter of how CPU scheduling works with a hypervisor. Let say you have a two vCPU VM where most of the work is being done on a single thread in your main application, so vCPU 1 runs at about 50% load while vCPU 2 handles all the background stuff and sits at around 5%. Inside your OS you're going to see about 28% CPU load from that for all the available cycles that could possibly be used so there's you VM processor stat. Total Processor looks at the impact of the entire VM on the underlying hardware/hypervisor. With two vCPUs which are associated with two cores in hardware and only one of them is on a 50% duty cycle, the hypervisor has to lock all cores associated with the VM even if only one of them is heavily executing instructions because the hypervisor doesn't have that level of insight in to how the guess OS's resource scheduler is going to use its available vCPUs. So in this situation, the hypervisor sees a 50% Total Processor load to match the workload on vCPU 1 while the additional cycles on vCPU 2 are essentially locked out and wasted. This is why VMware strongly advises starting your VMs with 1vCPU and then scaling them up one at a time as load demands it, as it helps minimize this type of waste.
This is greatly reduced with 'relaxed coscheduling' which has been the case (at least with VMware) for some number of years. It's not completely mitigated, but isn't what it was in the 3.5 or 4.0 days.

Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.


adorai posted:

This is greatly reduced with 'relaxed coscheduling' which has been the case (at least with VMware) for some number of years. It's not completely mitigated, but isn't what it was in the 3.5 or 4.0 days.
The impact isn't really reduced at all on small VMs, it's just not as painful on huge VMs with lots of vCPUs because the hypervisor doesn't have to wait for every vCPU to become free at the same time in order to run the world. You'll still tank your performance, though; check your CPU ready time on all your VMs to spot mis-allocation.

(vSphere sums the ready time on the CPUs instead of averaging, making the single most valuable VMware performance counter positively loving worthless as an alarm metric! )

1000101
May 14, 2003

BIRTHDAY BIRTHDAY BIRTHDAY BIRTHDAY BIRTHDAY BIRTHDAY FRUITCAKE!

Vulture Culture posted:

The impact isn't really reduced at all on small VMs, it's just not as painful on huge VMs with lots of vCPUs because the hypervisor doesn't have to wait for every vCPU to become free at the same time in order to run the world. You'll still tank your performance, though; check your CPU ready time on all your VMs to spot mis-allocation.

(vSphere sums the ready time on the CPUs instead of averaging, making the single most valuable VMware performance counter positively loving worthless as an alarm metric! )

You'll want to watch the CSTP counter too (which is the indicator that your VMs are too big/have too many vCPUs.) Sometimes you'll see %RDY values unrelated to co-scheduling.

HPL
Aug 28, 2002

Worst case scenario.

Bumped the ESXi box up from 8GB to 16GB. Possibly the most painful RAM upgrade I've ever done. It's an older Dell Optiplex 780, and yes, it HAS to have DDR3 1333 DIMMs. No, it can't be the faster stuff that's widely available or it won't even POST.

Anyone tried VMWare Photon Linux yet? If so, how's that working out for you?

Hadlock
Nov 9, 2004



HPL posted:

Anyone tried VMWare Photon Linux yet? If so, how's that working out for you?

Do we have a docker/containerization thread somewhere?

evol262
Nov 30, 2010
#!/usr/bin/perl

Hadlock posted:

Do we have a docker/containerization thread somewhere?

It gets lumped in here or the Linux thread. Judging from the amount of posts about it, I'm not sure there's enough to keep a dedicated thread alive

Wibla
Feb 16, 2011


HPL posted:

Bumped the ESXi box up from 8GB to 16GB. Possibly the most painful RAM upgrade I've ever done. It's an older Dell Optiplex 780, and yes, it HAS to have DDR3 1333 DIMMs. No, it can't be the faster stuff that's widely available or it won't even POST.

Anyone tried VMWare Photon Linux yet? If so, how's that working out for you?

Jikes, what a pain in the rear end.

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HPL
Aug 28, 2002

Worst case scenario.

Wibla posted:

Jikes, what a pain in the rear end.

Two returns to the local computer store later, I gave up on trying current RAM and ended up eBaying slower RAM which thankfully worked. Originally, I was like: "Sweet, 4 DIMM slots, I'll fill 'er with 4 8GB DIMMs". Nope. Wouldn't POST. Dug around some, found out the old motherboard chipset wouldn't support 8GB DIMMs, but could possibly support 4GB DIMMs. Okay, back to the store, eat the restocking fee and I go home and try the 4GB-1666 DIMMs. Nope, still wouldn't POST. Returned that RAM, ate another restocking fee and then ordered some actual 1333 from a Chinese eBay seller. Just arrived yesterday and thank god it works. Gigantic pain in the kiester.

Should have just bought a TS140 in the first place.

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