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YOLOsubmarine
Oct 19, 2004

When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."


Have you priced a VRTX from Dell?

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Moey
Oct 22, 2010

I LIKE TO MOVE IT


NippleFloss posted:

Have you priced a VRTX from Dell?

I just got an email a few days ago from Dell pushing some VTRX promos too.

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005



Oven Wrangler

That's actually a great idea that I completely forgot about. It looks like they have single and dual PERC controllers, so make sure to get dual. Not sure how they handle redundancies on the switching side of things.

stevewm
May 10, 2005


Internet Explorer posted:

That's actually a great idea that I completely forgot about. It looks like they have single and dual PERC controllers, so make sure to get dual. Not sure how they handle redundancies on the switching side of things.

Had forgot about VRTX as well... Hadn't heard anything about since their initial announcements a year or two ago....

BangersInMyKnickers
Nov 3, 2004

I have a thing for courageous dongles



VRTX and FX2 are pretty great. VRTX has redundant storage controller/paths available and is a better solution that the MD34xx route, I just didn't think of it. The big drawback is the fabric and switch layout. Fabric A runs the embedded switch and then the other two are for general PCIe expansion. It's not possible to have a symmetric config with full network redundancy if you're using the on-board switch, have to fully populate each node's PCIe ports with NICs. Extremely bad oversight in my book. FX2 has fully redundant 1 or 10gig embedded switching with full fabric redundancy. You could probably pull this off with one or two FD332 blocks for shared storage and then FC630's or FC430's for compute.

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005



Oven Wrangler

I have no idea on cost but if you are opening up that line I'd at least take a look at Nutanix as well. Dell can also quote it for you.

Docjowles
Apr 9, 2009



Also, how did you get the quote for your storage? If you just priced it out on Dell.com you're going to get a joke number. Find a local VAR to partner with, they'll have access to discounts you don't see as Joe Consumer.

pixaal
Jan 8, 2004

All ice cream is now for all beings, no matter how many legs.

Toilet Rascal

Internet Explorer posted:


If you are on that strict of a budget, I would consider using 2 hosts with enough local storage to run all of the servers on one host and backup to a NAS using something like Veeam Free or StorageCraft with a plan to restore to the other server if necessary. I wouldn't go the vSAN route to save money, because it will almost certainly bite you.

Just my opinion, I am sure there will those who disagree.


I'm looking to P2V a small company, and planning on exactly this. Veeam + Synology for backup, I believe you can even run the VM from backup while Veeam is restoring it, reducing downtime to basically human reaction of pressing restore. It very likely wont be running that well, but anything critical with a heavy workload you should instead run a VM on each host and do redundancy as if you didn't have VMs if at all possible.

YOLOsubmarine
Oct 19, 2004

When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."


If you're doing the paid VEEAM version you can use replication to provide quicker recovery of VMs between the two hosts with local storage.

Free VEEAM has some substantial limitations around doing backup.

Methanar
Sep 26, 2013

It always was

You can take a look at the quote I was given last year when I was involved in purchasing new hardware for the VRTX. This was dual PERC raid cards, 17(?) 1tb drives and 8 gigabit NICs in the tower chassis. Keep in mind this is from when the Canadian funny money was 75% what the american dollar was. I have nothing to compare it to, but I thought it was really easy to work with and get setup for shared storage: you can do either iSCSI or NFS and just run it over a few 1Gb NICs bonded together if you really need to.

Methanar fucked around with this message at May 12, 2016 around 02:46

Kachunkachunk
Jun 6, 2011


Good lord, VMware really needs to lower its pricing, especially for things like VC.

mAlfunkti0n
May 19, 2004


Fallen Rib

Kachunkachunk posted:

Good lord, VMware really needs to lower its pricing, especially for things like VC.

We just spent 500K with them.....

pixaal
Jan 8, 2004

All ice cream is now for all beings, no matter how many legs.

Toilet Rascal

NippleFloss posted:

If you're doing the paid VEEAM version you can use replication to provide quicker recovery of VMs between the two hosts with local storage.

Free VEEAM has some substantial limitations around doing backup.

Veeam isn't that much if you don't care about updating it. Just buy a new version when you replace the servers and let support lapse.

Moey
Oct 22, 2010

I LIKE TO MOVE IT


pixaal posted:

Veeam isn't that much if you don't care about updating it. Just buy a new version when you replace the servers and let support lapse.

Support is normally less than 20% of licensing cost for Veeam. You run your servers for more than 5 years?

pixaal
Jan 8, 2004

All ice cream is now for all beings, no matter how many legs.

Toilet Rascal

Moey posted:

Support is normally less than 20% of licensing cost for Veeam. You run your servers for more than 5 years?

I don't have a quote for a renew, but Veeam's site said a savings of 20%, if it's at 20% cost then that changes my opinion of letting it lapse. Running a 5 year old version when it's that little to maintain doesn't make much sense.

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005



Oven Wrangler

The 20% for support exists all over the industry for a reason. It makes more sense to stay under support than the rebuy. One of my pet peeves is people who do poo poo like run their backup software with 0 support. That sure is a great idea!

BangersInMyKnickers
Nov 3, 2004

I have a thing for courageous dongles



Kachunkachunk posted:

Good lord, VMware really needs to lower its pricing, especially for things like VC.

If your environment is that small you should probably be going with Essentials.

Moey
Oct 22, 2010

I LIKE TO MOVE IT


BangersInMyKnickers posted:

If your environment is that small you should probably be going with Essentials.

Until VMware decides to switch from per-socket to per-core licensing.....

You can run a shitload of stuff off a 3x dual socket cluster.

DevNull
Apr 4, 2007

And sometimes is seen a strange spot in the sky
A human being that was given to fly



Moey posted:

Until VMware decides to switch from per-socket to per-core licensing.....

You can run a shitload of stuff off a 3x dual socket cluster.

I don't think we will do that. The company really isn't trying to squeeze every penny out of the compute market at this point. Selling management tools was the big push with vCenter, and now it is more storage and networking. End User Computing is also part of where VMware is going to be looking to make more money. We know we have a huge market share with ESX, and we don't want to run those customers off. We want to sell you more poo poo of it instead.

Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.


And if your environment isn't dense enough where VMware's hypervisor efficiencies mean actual cost savings for you despite the price tag, there's plenty of free options out there that are perfectly stable. It's not like trying to find an alternative to Photoshop in the early 2000s and concluding that your two choices are The Gimp or blowing your loving brains out

BangersInMyKnickers
Nov 3, 2004

I have a thing for courageous dongles



Moey posted:

Until VMware decides to switch from per-socket to per-core licensing.....

You can run a shitload of stuff off a 3x dual socket cluster.

Hyper-V nipping at their heels will probably stop that from ever happening.

Moey
Oct 22, 2010

I LIKE TO MOVE IT


I really hope they don't do that. Little upset with MS switching over for Datacenter 2016. At least it isn't my money, just makes managing licensing more of a pain.

BangersInMyKnickers
Nov 3, 2004

I have a thing for courageous dongles



Moey posted:

I really hope they don't do that. Little upset with MS switching over for Datacenter 2016. At least it isn't my money, just makes managing licensing more of a pain.

What's this now? I haven't bothered following the MS licensing changes since we just slap Datacenter on everything by default.

pixaal
Jan 8, 2004

All ice cream is now for all beings, no matter how many legs.

Toilet Rascal

BangersInMyKnickers posted:

What's this now? I haven't bothered following the MS licensing changes since we just slap Datacenter on everything by default.

With 2016 its by core not socket. Minimum of 8 cores per socket, 2 sockets per host are required to be licensed. If you have a standard install of 2 8 core sockets nothing changes if you have 2 10 cores you have to buy more licenses. If you haves less no savings for you!

This also makes AMD even worse since any savings will now actually cost you more for the OS licenses. I get a feeling this was prompted by Intel to try and push AMD even further out of the market since their gimmick is more cores (which is actually useful for hosting VMs). This assumes AMD can actually make a CPU worth a drat this gen.

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005



Oven Wrangler

I'm not sure I have any huge complaints with them going to cores instead of sockets. It's certainly not an awesome change, but it has been painfully obvious something was going to give as CPUs started growing in cores

By core is just as arbitrary as by socket or by host. If they went to total CPU speed by GHz, obviously that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. By "compute power" would get into benchmarking and stuff.

I don't know. It doesn't really bother me that much. Gotta license by something.

Moey
Oct 22, 2010

I LIKE TO MOVE IT


I am just mildly annoyed as my new cluster is using 10 core CPUs, so whenever we upgrade our datacenter licensing (probably 2016 R2), it will be a little more involved.

evil_bunnY
Apr 2, 2003



It means we get to buy EXTREME OVERCLOXXX EDITION chips now right?

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005



Oven Wrangler

Moey posted:

I am just mildly annoyed as my new cluster is using 10 core CPUs, so whenever we upgrade our datacenter licensing (probably 2016 R2), it will be a little more involved.

Yeah, I can see that. Hopefully the price will be reasonable and the upgrade process from a licensing standpoint will be straightforward.

Hahaha, who am I kidding? This is Microsoft we're talking about.

pixaal
Jan 8, 2004

All ice cream is now for all beings, no matter how many legs.

Toilet Rascal

Internet Explorer posted:

Yeah, I can see that. Hopefully the price will be reasonable and the upgrade process from a licensing standpoint will be straightforward.

Hahaha, who am I kidding? This is Microsoft we're talking about.

You can apparently buy 2 core upgrade packs, also if you have a software assurance plan contact them before 2016 comes out, you can get your licenses for 2016 to match your current configuration with 2012R2.

BangersInMyKnickers
Nov 3, 2004

I have a thing for courageous dongles



Internet Explorer posted:

I'm not sure I have any huge complaints with them going to cores instead of sockets. It's certainly not an awesome change, but it has been painfully obvious something was going to give as CPUs started growing in cores

By core is just as arbitrary as by socket or by host. If they went to total CPU speed by GHz, obviously that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. By "compute power" would get into benchmarking and stuff.

I don't know. It doesn't really bother me that much. Gotta license by something.

It was definitely painful in the early days on VMs where the software vendors were attaching huge penalties to virtual deployments because if you are physical the licensing was per-socket but if you were virtual it was by core and the price per "thing" was the same. Oracle was hugely guilty of this, but others did it too. A cap of somewhere in the 8 to 10 cores per socket for the license seems reasonable considering it wasn't that long ago that the most you would have was 4.

evil_bunnY
Apr 2, 2003



Come on now, don't you boys and girls remember oracle wanting you to license all sockets on your cluster for apps, no matter how many you had passed to the VM running said apps?

BangersInMyKnickers
Nov 3, 2004

I have a thing for courageous dongles



evil_bunnY posted:

Come on now, don't you boys and girls remember oracle wanting you to license all sockets on your cluster for apps, no matter how many you had passed to the VM running said apps?

They also claimed that affinity rules did not count because paravirtual drivers freed up CPU cycles inside the guest vm that were offloaded to the hypervisor and they should get more money, because of that extra 1% overhead reduction that they had no hand in

Maneki Neko
Oct 27, 2000



evil_bunnY posted:

Come on now, don't you boys and girls remember oracle wanting you to license all sockets on your cluster for apps, no matter how many you had passed to the VM running said apps?

They still want you to do that. We have to run a separate vcenter with dedicated hosts in them that can't in any way communicate for each different Oracle licensing model to avoid them saying "license everything" because no one wants to spend the $$$ to battle it out with them court (although other folks have).

Thanks Ants
May 21, 2004

Bless You Ants, Blants



Fun Shoe

Is Oracle still a thing that people would rather spend the $$$ on fighting the licensing terms in court than spending that money on moving to a platform that doesn't come from a company that wants to gently caress you at every opportunity? Genuine question by the way, I have no idea what Oracle's strengths are (were?).

Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.


When it comes to the whole BI suites, either you pay for Oracle, or you pay triple salary and relocation for each employee who knows the pet other thing you want to run instead.

im depressed lol
Mar 12, 2013

cunts are still running the show.


Edit: Nevermind

im depressed lol fucked around with this message at May 15, 2016 around 21:11

HPL
Aug 28, 2002

Worst case scenario.

Oracle is still huge with eBiz and PeopleSoft as well as their database products.

Tab8715
May 20, 2006

NOBODY WANTS TO HEAR YOUR NIGHTCORE GARBAGE, MORON

Thanks Ants posted:

Is Oracle still a thing that people would rather spend the $$$ on fighting the licensing terms in court than spending that money on moving to a platform that doesn't come from a company that wants to gently caress you at every opportunity? Genuine question by the way, I have no idea what Oracle's strengths are (were?).

I sort of feel the same way and I'm having a hard thinking off anything innovative the company has done for years.

adorai
Nov 2, 2002

10/27/04 Never forget

Grimey Drawer

Tab8715 posted:

I sort of feel the same way and I'm having a hard thinking off anything innovative the company has done for years.
they bought sun so they could sue google.

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YOLOsubmarine
Oct 19, 2004

When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."


Oracle is everywhere. Building new apps on Oracle is less common, but there's plenty of existing apps out there that run on it that will be around for a long time and will still be running on Oracle for all of it because change is difficult.

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