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BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node Not Found



Eletriarnation posted:

Sure, I know that they couldn't just wholesale lift closed source software - what I'm saying is that if Poettering set out to emulate those examples knowing how they work, it doesn't really make sense that what he developed would just be worse for no reason instead of working in the same way as the examples. At the very least, we have to claim that he didn't know what he was doing or that he made bad decisions on how to make necessary-for-Linux changes instead of just replicating what was in front of him.

I don't even know the specifics of how they are different because I've never gone into the weeds that far on OSX or used BSD at all, so I'm not going to speculate on why those decisions were made - if you want to say that he made a mistake because he has bad opinions on how things should work, OK. But... like you say, he was in the right place at the right time to solve a problem that needed solving. Not only was his employer who paid for the solution happy to use it, but most of the rest of the Linux world was too.

Even if I believe that Red Hat created a deliberately flawed solution to sell more support contracts (or for the less conspiracy minded, spent a while developing something lovely and fell victim to sunk cost fallacy), for me it doesn't really pass the laugh test that the rest of the open source world would say "well, ok" and get in line and stay there for ten years instead of forking or starting over from scratch.
I'm pretty sure he's said he set out to emulate launchd, so assuming that he didn't seems to be pretty pointless.

The point I'm obviously failing to make is that if systemd is still as full of holes as it obviously is, and if it's still seeing scope creep that doesn't fix the issues and adds new ones, he's not solved anything.

I'm not saying they did it deliberately, I'm not into conspiracy theories. I'm saying they unintentionally benefited from him being in in a particular place at a particular time. Whether it's right is debatable.

EDIT: Also, don't be so quick to assume RedHat won't replace systemd - they're already replacing pulseaudio with PipeWire, despite the fact that that was written by Lennart Poettering too.

BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 14:30 on Apr 11, 2021

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CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

If Godzilla can do it, you know I can deliver!


Pillbug

The problem is, again, that systemd is replacing things that don't need replacement, constantly changing how they are replacing things. Like with changing the network management again after everyone was almost used to as it was implemented.

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node Not Found



Anywho, I think enough have been said to exhaust this.

The battle lines have been drawn pretty clearly on this topic for a long time, there's no changing anyone's mind - so let's just have a drink and shitpost about something else.

Mr. Crow
May 22, 2008

Snap City mayor for life


BlankSystemDaemon posted:

I'm pretty sure he's said he set out to emulate launchd, so assuming that he didn't seems to be pretty pointless.

The point I'm obviously failing to make is that if systemd is still as full of holes as it obviously is, and if it's still seeing scope creep that doesn't fix the issues and adds new ones, he's not solved anything.

I'm not saying they did it deliberately, I'm not into conspiracy theories. I'm saying they unintentionally benefited from him being in in a particular place at a particular time. Whether it's right is debatable.

EDIT: Also, don't be so quick to assume RedHat won't replace systemd - they're already replacing pulseaudio with PipeWire, despite the fact that that was written by Lennart Poettering too.

Regardless of the systemd discussion because, agreed, no one's mind is gonna be changed; I'm not sure I've ever heard a single person defend pulse audio. It's a dumpster fire that while kind of works now, needs to be replaced; if only because of the negative stigma it has. I've only heard good things about pipewire.

Volguus
Mar 3, 2009


Mr. Crow posted:

Regardless of the systemd discussion because, agreed, no one's mind is gonna be changed; I'm not sure I've ever heard a single person defend pulse audio. It's a dumpster fire that while kind of works now, needs to be replaced; if only because of the negative stigma it has. I've only heard good things about pipewire.

While I've heard only positive things about pipewire too, I'm a bit more reserved about it now, since I am using Fedora 34 that comes with it by default. I have an application (written in Qt) that I use to change the default audio output device. It's more than 5 years old and it works just fine with pulseaudio. Since upgrading to F34, even though pipewire has a pulseaudio compatible API (wrapper or whatever it is), it behaves a bit differently. For example, when the DE starts (KDE), it tells me that it connected to the server, but that there are no audio outputs available. If I quit the app then restart it it works just fine. Now, maybe the pulseaudio layer is not that stable yet, so I've been meaning to write it against pipewire directly. The documentation, however, of that API is ... not quite existent to be honest. I haven't spent that much time on it, but meh I kinda gave up for now. At the moment I just live with it not starting when the DE starts and I start it manually after. I hope they'll stabilize it soon.

Nitrousoxide
May 30, 2011

do not buy a oneplus phone





Volguus posted:

While I've heard only positive things about pipewire too, I'm a bit more reserved about it now, since I am using Fedora 34 that comes with it by default. I have an application (written in Qt) that I use to change the default audio output device. It's more than 5 years old and it works just fine with pulseaudio. Since upgrading to F34, even though pipewire has a pulseaudio compatible API (wrapper or whatever it is), it behaves a bit differently. For example, when the DE starts (KDE), it tells me that it connected to the server, but that there are no audio outputs available. If I quit the app then restart it it works just fine. Now, maybe the pulseaudio layer is not that stable yet, so I've been meaning to write it against pipewire directly. The documentation, however, of that API is ... not quite existent to be honest. I haven't spent that much time on it, but meh I kinda gave up for now. At the moment I just live with it not starting when the DE starts and I start it manually after. I hope they'll stabilize it soon.

I have WINE apps that don't see any sound devices either in Fedora 34.

Less Fat Luke
May 23, 2003

Just the tip!



Exciting Lemon

This is a weird question that I'm having trouble getting an answer to on Google; I've used ESXi and KVM for PCI-E passthrough on my system that has IOMMU support and what not, but I'm trying to find out if PCI non-E cards are also capable of being passed through to a guest OS. I have a Windows 10 installation using an old 8-port coaxial cable input card (PCI, the OG kind) and would love to virtualize it.

Wibla
Feb 16, 2011


Less Fat Luke posted:

This is a weird question that I'm having trouble getting an answer to on Google; I've used ESXi and KVM for PCI-E passthrough on my system that has IOMMU support and what not, but I'm trying to find out if PCI non-E cards are also capable of being passed through to a guest OS. I have a Windows 10 installation using an old 8-port coaxial cable input card (PCI, the OG kind) and would love to virtualize it.

You could get a pci-e to pci adapter card and do it that way?

Less Fat Luke
May 23, 2003

Just the tip!



Exciting Lemon

Wibla posted:

You could get a pci-e to pci adapter card and do it that way?

LOL you're no help. I guess I'll make a bootable ESXi drive and just boot that host, and see if the PCI card shows up as available to passthrough.

SamDabbers
May 26, 2003




Less Fat Luke posted:

LOL you're no help. I guess I'll make a bootable ESXi drive and just boot that host, and see if the PCI card shows up as available to passthrough.

Old school PCI doesn't support IOMMU IIRC so you'll probably have to pass through everything that's on the same PCI bus, and it may only work if the PCIe-to-PCI bridge is wired into a PCIe port that supports ACS.

Pile Of Garbage
May 28, 2007





Just a guess but I'd say it would come down to the PCI bus itself and how it presents devices attached to it. I'd assume there's some kinda standard for that poo poo so it shouldn't matter how the devices behind the bus are connected and as long as the bus supports passthrough it would work in theory except if the hardware does DMA or some poo poo who loving knows love to know how you get on.

Wibla
Feb 16, 2011


Less Fat Luke posted:

LOL you're no help. I guess I'll make a bootable ESXi drive and just boot that host, and see if the PCI card shows up as available to passthrough.

Wow. You're welcome

Less Fat Luke
May 23, 2003

Just the tip!



Exciting Lemon

Pile Of Garbage posted:

Just a guess but I'd say it would come down to the PCI bus itself and how it presents devices attached to it. I'd assume there's some kinda standard for that poo poo so it shouldn't matter how the devices behind the bus are connected and as long as the bus supports passthrough it would work in theory except if the hardware does DMA or some poo poo who loving knows love to know how you get on.

My thoughts too, we'll see. I went to install ESXi and realized nothing I have network card wise is compatible so I'm going to grab a cheap Broadcom before testing further.

Martytoof
Feb 25, 2003







This may be a stupid question that's answered in the docs but I'm making the switch from vmware to proxmox to get rid of the vcenter overhead and I'm having some trouble adjusting to the way it works in some cases.

In esxi-land I had an NFS share that contains a ton of ISOs separated out in directories, e.g., /nfs/windows/server, /nfs/windows/desktop, /nfs/linux/centos etc. Proxmox lets me mount the NFS but it seems to insist I throw all ISOs into /nfs/template/iso and doesn't let me subfolder things. Is the intent that I have everything in one big bucket and just use tags to search for what I want?

Transition has been fairly smooth otherwise though honestly the only reason I trimmed down was to ditch the bloated pig that is vcenter for a one-node homelab and still retain the ability to create templates, etc.

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node Not Found



What overhead?
I'd love to see some numbers that prove which one has more overhead, because unless you're looking at OccamBSD (just as an example, because it's what I know; it's FreeBSD stripped to its absolute minimum to only run bhyve and nothing else (not even networking)), I'd be surprised if there's a measurable difference on comparable workloads.

Martytoof
Feb 25, 2003







Free ESXi can do everything I needed *except* templates so dedicating 10+gb RAM and whatever size storage for VCSA on a single node server didn't make a whole lot of sense.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

If Godzilla can do it, you know I can deliver!


Pillbug

I continue to preach the good word of XCP-NG

SlowBloke
Aug 14, 2017


Martytoof posted:

Free ESXi can do everything I needed *except* templates so dedicating 10+gb RAM and whatever size storage for VCSA on a single node server didn't make a whole lot of sense.

Ram is cheap, esp compared to slamming your dick in a drawer dealing with proxmox idiosyncrasies. Every time i tried jumping from esxi to prox, Iíve jumped back fairly quick.

Martytoof
Feb 25, 2003







Yeah, thatís definitely true. That being said, Iíve moved a few things over to proxmox and itís seemingly doing the job well enough. Hardware is an old R620 with 128gb ram and 1.2tb in an array of six 300gb spinners I got from work a while back so I donít actually want to put any money into upgrading it or anything, so Iím fine just reclaiming the disk space and ram from VCSA in favour of proxmox. My end goal is to deploy as code anyway and not touch the GUI so who knows, maybe Iíll go back to bone stock esxi once I have my poo poo sorted out.

Matt Zerella
Oct 7, 2002


Terraform works pretty well with proxmox and cloud init. Combine it with packer for building your templates and you'll be pretty happy.

SlowBloke
Aug 14, 2017


Quick warning, virtuallyghetto is now williamlam.com, articles are still here. It looks like there have been some external push given how sudden it was.

DevNull
Apr 4, 2007

And sometimes is seen a strange spot in the sky
A human being that was given to fly



SlowBloke posted:

Quick warning, virtuallyghetto is now williamlam.com, articles are still here. It looks like there have been some external push given how sudden it was.

My guess would be that he was trying to stop using the word ghetto for his website. He does work for VMware, and while it isn't an official company site it does kind of reflect on the company. He is a good guy, but that name did always kind of bug me.

Martytoof
Feb 25, 2003







I didnít even make it a week into proxmox. For some reason I felt the performance of my VMs was really sluggish. Not sure why but I bet it was some human error on my part.

Either way, just resigned to continuing the VCSA life forever I guess. I thought about going the xen route but man, that needs a management VM too if I want to do any fun template stuff, and if Iím doing to do that I may as well just stick with the one I have licensed now.

RIP experimenting I guess.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

If Godzilla can do it, you know I can deliver!


Pillbug

Martytoof posted:

I didnít even make it a week into proxmox. For some reason I felt the performance of my VMs was really sluggish. Not sure why but I bet it was some human error on my part.

Either way, just resigned to continuing the VCSA life forever I guess. I thought about going the xen route but man, that needs a management VM too if I want to do any fun template stuff, and if Iím doing to do that I may as well just stick with the one I have licensed now.

RIP experimenting I guess.

You can talk directly to the hypervisor via the xe commands, and is compatible with all the known automation tools I know of. Plus, XCP-NG comes with the Xen Orchestra virtual appliance.

https://www.criticaldesign.net/post/automating-lab-builds-with-xenserver-powershell-part-3-unlimited-vm-creation

Martytoof
Feb 25, 2003







That's a good writeup, thanks! I might give it one more kick at the can. I still have to reformat everything one more time since I have larger SD cards coming form Amazon so I can install ESXi7.

Martytoof
Feb 25, 2003







Itís been a while since I actively did any networking in the vSphere world ó is there anything out of the box in vSphere 6.7 or 7 that provides layer 3 switching between networks or is throwing a vyos/pfsense/tiny linux box with ip forwarding on two vSwitches still the way to go? I donít need anything complex, just simple routing to keep my home network and lab networks from crowding each other.

SlowBloke
Aug 14, 2017


Martytoof posted:

Itís been a while since I actively did any networking in the vSphere world ó is there anything out of the box in vSphere 6.7 or 7 that provides layer 3 switching between networks or is throwing a vyos/pfsense/tiny linux box with ip forwarding on two vSwitches still the way to go? I donít need anything complex, just simple routing to keep my home network and lab networks from crowding each other.

Nsx-V is their out of the box solution, which might be a bit overkill if vcsa was too much overhead for you.

SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 06:24 on May 13, 2021

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1000101
May 14, 2003

BIRTHDAY BIRTHDAY BIRTHDAY BIRTHDAY BIRTHDAY BIRTHDAY FRUITCAKE!

SlowBloke posted:

Nsx-V is their out of the box solution, which might be a bit overkill if vcsa was too much overhead for you.

NSX-V is EOL you should be looking at NSX-T now which is a complete rewrite and much much much better.

Given the use case though just install a router VM.

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