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Kreeblah
May 17, 2004

INSERT QUACK TO CONTINUE


Taco Defender
Well, I switched my home host over to Proxmox. Some of it's a bit clunkier (like the UI doesn't seem to have any way to assign roles to groups, so I had to do that via the CLI, and the VM creation process has a lot of extra stuff to click that would be nice to be able to set as defaults), but so far, it seems to work OK.

I do appreciate that they offer OpenID connect as an auth mechanism and ACME for cert generation. Those were relatively easy to set up, except for some of their field names being a little confusing.

I guess I'll see whether I get any weird behavior or instability over the long term, but at least from my initial impressions on a single-host setup, this seems to be usable.

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afflictionwisp
Aug 26, 2003

Moey posted:

Also, any thoughts on what is going to happen with Horizon? I also run a 400+ seat VDI environment. Hopefully they don't try and rip away the included underlying ESXi licensing for the horizon hosts.

Our rep has warned us to expect WorkspaceOne and the Horizon stack to be spun off into a separate company within the next couple years.

fresh_cheese
Jul 2, 2014

MY KPI IS HOW MANY VP NUTS I SUCK IN A FISCAL YEAR AND MY LAST THREE OFFICE CHAIRS COMMITTED SUICIDE
Welcome to the legacy systems meeting everyone. Well get started here in a minute, but first!

We have some new faces! Everybody, these are the VMware people! Welcome! Donuts and coffee are over there on the side thanks to Wanda from the VMS group thanks Wanda!

Ok as a quick intro these guys ignoring me and arguing with each other are the UNIX grognards, arguing about SystemV vs BSD.

Those folks are the Netware people, aaaand those guys are the mainframe guys.

Oo and Wanda, VMS, yup


Me? Oh im the telco guy. I did copper line work.

HalloKitty
Sep 30, 2005

Adjust the bass and let the Alpine blast

Kreeblah posted:

Well, I switched my home host over to Proxmox. Some of it's a bit clunkier (like the UI doesn't seem to have any way to assign roles to groups, so I had to do that via the CLI, and the VM creation process has a lot of extra stuff to click that would be nice to be able to set as defaults), but so far, it seems to work OK.

I do appreciate that they offer OpenID connect as an auth mechanism and ACME for cert generation. Those were relatively easy to set up, except for some of their field names being a little confusing.

I guess I'll see whether I get any weird behavior or instability over the long term, but at least from my initial impressions on a single-host setup, this seems to be usable.

Windows guests? I hear those can be an issue with Proxmox

Moey
Oct 22, 2010

I LIKE TO MOVE IT

SlowBloke posted:

Renewal deadlines for perpetual SnS is February if our VAR are not lying, afterwards you can only buy new subscriptions. Until the recent changes at the end of last year, you could still purchase perpetual subs and the attached SnS, VAR scored a lot of fresh sales once the Broadcom acquisition news went public.

Yeah, I pulled our renewal from 12/23. "Horizon 8 Standard Term per Concurrent User 1 year term license". So we have still avoided the Horizon Universal (or any previous short lived naming schemes) that our revolving door of VMware reps have tried to push.

Since my budget is already destroyed, might as well try and tack on another year or two of SnS at the "when I was young" price if possible. I've been happy with Horizon, was in the middle of doing App Volume packaging/testing for a shift for some departments over to Instant Clones (from persistent desktops) and sneak in a little W10 to W11 change-up. Probably slow that down until we figure out who is buying the EUC stuff.


afflictionwisp posted:

Our rep has warned us to expect WorkspaceOne and the Horizon stack to be spun off into a separate company within the next couple years.

Meh, for our minimal use case and how wide of a feature set they keep shoving into WSOne (and complex it has grown to since the AirWatch dats), I am fine with it. Without even looking into the actual product. I have already made up my mind on "Simple MDM" based on the name alone. But I am sure we will have Intune blindly shoved into our laps due to having E3 licenses across the org. Yay. I swear every day I am one step closer to rage quitting because they took away our tiny departments Slack paid subscription and have forced us to teams. Hopefully these folks don't remember that Teams can technically be a pbx/phone system too. We had another blind management decision to migrate from on-prem voip over to Zoom a few years back. Its fine functionally, and cheap Yealink phones are actually nice quality/features set, but we wen't from paying nearly nothing for old system to paying more than nothing annually.

the spyder posted:

Yes. Yes we are. I highly recommend exploring alternatives, regardless of the pricing. I dare even say HyperV if you're looking to leverage Datacenter Server 2022/2025 licensing.

I have a multi domain UCS environment coming up on EOL (B200 M4/M5), something like 3000 VM's. I'll sanitize/round for the sake of making it digestible.
My quote for 2,500 cores, standard vSphere, vCenter, and special VDI licensing (10,000 users) went from $1.2m in August to $5.5million last week. 5 years commit.
We're a non-profit and that's money that won't go into patient care. We are obviously exploring options. (edited to include VDI)

Yeah, I run datacenter licensing across all my server VM hosts as well (a fraction of your environment tho). With my planned hardware refresh in 2024, I would end up with like 320 cores for my server workloads. I budgeted like $10k for the existing vSphere standard SnS, $40k up upgrade a "primary production" cluster of hosts to Enterprise Plus, and maybe like $100k for Windows Datacenter licensing.

Probably going to end up re-allocating the Enterprise Plus and Datacenter Licensing moola. Continue with host upgrades (and some fancy new switches, going 10gbe to 25gbe for my collapsed core route/switch virtual chassis) and squeeze in a year or two of Horizon SnS, old pricing was only like $10/user/year for support (but don't want to extend too far with the unknown new owner). Windows Datacenter licensing will just get re-budgeted for 2025 (would have waited until fall when Server 2025 drops anyway). Still a slight panic while trying to sort out these numbers I had to submit back in June of '23. At least our finance and upper management is good, so if do need more cash, a budget amendment should go through without issue.

Anyone have to janitor XCP-NG? Is that any more "enterprise ready" than Proxmox?

Edit- I guess whatever the future brings, I'll currently be running on VMware, MS or Citrix for the VDI hosts. Forgot to think about our current vGPU deployment, which has actually been clean/smooth sailing.

gently caress you Broadcom. I'm down, let's Occupy Wall Street.

Thank you all for attending my ted talk.

Moey fucked around with this message at 13:45 on Feb 19, 2024

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

nobody cares


the spyder posted:

Yes. Yes we are. I highly recommend exploring alternatives, regardless of the pricing. I dare even say HyperV if you're looking to leverage Datacenter Server 2022/2025 licensing.

I have a multi domain UCS environment coming up on EOL (B200 M4/M5), something like 3000 VM's. I'll sanitize/round for the sake of making it digestible.
My quote for 2,500 cores, standard vSphere, vCenter, and special VDI licensing (10,000 users) went from $1.2m in August to $5.5million last week. 5 years commit.
We're a non-profit and that's money that won't go into patient care. We are obviously exploring options. (edited to include VDI)

They force you into VCF licenses or something?

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

nobody cares


just did the napkin math a very recent Dell quote that I got.

if my VMware licensing goes up by any more than about 2.1x, I might as well scrap my entire current generation of server hardware and go with somebody who gives you a whole appliance, like Scale Computing or Nutanix.

Nutanix in particular might be an interesting choice for one of my gigantic vdi environments

God drat it I had just spent five years getting all of our virtualization onto the same platform.

HalloKitty
Sep 30, 2005

Adjust the bass and let the Alpine blast

Potato Salad posted:

They force you into VCF licenses or something?

Seems likely. Tired of Broadcom's bs

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

nobody cares


At least VMware by VMware was giving people good jobs with our license money.

The thing that feels worst about this is that the lion's share of the VMware buyout is sitting in the offshore accounts of Michael Dell, his private capital buddies, and a few large investment firms. Some bank in Aruba is flush with like $25B of that sale price.

Worthless, unproductive waste.

Nope our license money is going to be at $fuckyou cost, and it's going purely to backfill buyout debt, vulture capitalists, and a far reduced workforce. poo poo, remember when VMware laid off much of its dedicated support team in anticipation of buyout, and suddenly their engineers started getting pulled into T1 issues?

afflictionwisp
Aug 26, 2003

Potato Salad posted:

God drat it I had just spent five years getting all of our virtualization onto the same platform.

Dont feel too bad, that just takes some of the complexity out of your migration off that platform :D

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

Moey posted:

Anyone have to janitor XCP-NG? Is that any more "enterprise ready" than Proxmox?

Its much more enterprise ready. Its basically Citrix Xenserver but without the licensing costs, and you can get 'pro-support' for it:
https://xcp-ng.com/

Zorak of Michigan
Jun 10, 2006

Potato Salad posted:

At least VMware by VMware was giving people good jobs with our license money.

The thing that feels worst about this is that the lion's share of the VMware buyout is sitting in the offshore accounts of Michael Dell, his private capital buddies, and a few large investment firms. Some bank in Aruba is flush with like $25B of that sale price.

Worthless, unproductive waste.

Nope our license money is going to be at $fuckyou cost, and it's going purely to backfill buyout debt, vulture capitalists, and a far reduced workforce. poo poo, remember when VMware laid off much of its dedicated support team in anticipation of buyout, and suddenly their engineers started getting pulled into T1 issues?

VMware had a dedicated support team? The way they treated our tickets, I assumed they just printed them, left on the street, and trusted that someone curious would pick them up and call us.

Kreeblah
May 17, 2004

INSERT QUACK TO CONTINUE


Taco Defender

HalloKitty posted:

Windows guests? I hear those can be an issue with Proxmox

Funny you should ask. I just tried Windows 11 last night since I only keep it around for the rare occasions I can't do something on my Mac.

Windows seems to work, but it's more of a pain than on VMware. The VMware tools are miles ahead of the VirtIO/QEMU/SPICE poo poo (at least on Windows). I actually had to stop using SPICE and go back to unaccelerated video because SPICE kept freezing* on me. Other than that, and the wonky process of adding a second optical drive to the VM with the VirtIO drivers so that the Windows installer picks them up and can use the hard drive, it seemed fine. I haven't tried anything super extensive with Windows, though.

*Something I found about Proxmox when dealing with a hung Windows 11 instance from SPICE issues. If you try to gracefully shut down a VM with the Proxmox UI's "Shutdown" option and that doesn't work (it gets stuck), the force-kill "Stop" option won't work because it can't get a lock on the VM. You need to open up the status of the shutdown operation and cancel it before you can stop the VM. I'd expect the stop operation would kill the shutdown operation on the way, but apparently not.

Edit: Oh, one other weird thing I discovered that makes Proxmox fine for home use, but not as good as VMware for enterprise use: what SSO set up through Proxmox actually gets you. You can do most things in the GUI (VM creation, control, etc.), but not everything (hardware passthrough, for example, or running Proxmox updates, since it pops up a shell to run apt-get dist-upgrade), and not everything can be done in the GUI (the only way I was able to figure out how to assign roles to groups was via the CLI). For anything else, you need a user authed by PAM. And, I mean, you can set PAM up with AD or whatever just like you can with any Linux host, but VMware doesn't make you gently caress around with any of that. With VMware, an admin user is an admin user, full stop. With Proxmox, there's a material difference between a non-PAM user (like my OpenID user) and a PAM user, even if the non-PAM user has full admin privileges in Proxmox.

Kreeblah fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Feb 20, 2024

Langolas
Feb 12, 2011

My mustache makes me sexy, not the hat

Zorak of Michigan posted:

VMware had a dedicated support team? The way they treated our tickets, I assumed they just printed them, left on the street, and trusted that someone curious would pick them up and call us.

From my climbing partner that was on their VSAN L2 support team a few years ago

"They only cared about hitting SLO/SLA. On a live outage and a new sev1 comes in? Management would have them go engage on the new one at the same time and put one on the backburner. Then do it again. They'd eventually get back to people on the slower days or if someone had connections to cry loud enough and get people engaged again."

So pretty much what you stated there, print them out and not do anything.

My Colorado VMware support contacts I'd utilize periodically are all gone now. The last 6 months of working with Vmware has been frustrating to say the least. Once that Broadcom deal finalized, they pushed those branding changes fast. Vmware.com emails are now Broadcom.com. Made me sad to see

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

nobody cares


Zorak of Michigan posted:

VMware had a dedicated support team? The way they treated our tickets, I assumed they just printed them, left on the street, and trusted that someone curious would pick them up and call us.

They used to. It was friggin great, too.

Zorak of Michigan
Jun 10, 2006

Potato Salad posted:

They used to. It was friggin great, too.

Oh yeah, back in the day, the guys at my workplace to worked with VMware would talk about how wonderful their support was. Never knew how good we had it.

Kaddish
Feb 7, 2002
I work for a midsize healthcare system and our VMware licensing is going from 115k to 280k per year.

Dancing Peasant
Jul 19, 2003

All this for stealing a piece of bread? :waycool:

My group is working to get off of VMWare (for reasons stated already). And while there has been discussion on ProxMox, management and some engineers are leaning towards OpenShift/OpenStack as another solution.

We currently have Windows and RHEL primarily, so is there reason why OS/OS isn't discussed as a viable alternative?

Twerk from Home
Jan 17, 2009

This avatar brought to you by the 'save our dead gay forums' foundation.

Dancing Peasant posted:

My group is working to get off of VMWare (for reasons stated already). And while there has been discussion on ProxMox, management and some engineers are leaning towards OpenShift/OpenStack as another solution.

We currently have Windows and RHEL primarily, so is there reason why OS/OS isn't discussed as a viable alternative?

I'm repeating secondhand (or worse) information and general community chatter that may not be up to date or reflect reality, but OpenStack has a reputation for being a pain box. It's difficult to deploy well, the integration of different components of it sometimes feel like they're not even part of the same over-arching product vision, and everyone's OpenStack ends up being a unique beast, making ongoing operations of it a pain. A good number of operators feel trapped on it, and I would bet that for a few years now it has not been a common choice for groups setting up a new environment.

OpenShift seems much healthier by comparison, but that's k8s and not a complete replacement for clustered virtualization.

Twerk from Home fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Mar 4, 2024

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug
Yeah Openshift and Openstack have a lot of promise, but the reality is K8s/Containers are not really a 1 for 1 replacement for virtualization and there's a lot of maturity issues with a lot of Cloud Native stuff like Terraform/K8s.

in a well actually
Jan 26, 2011

dude, you gotta end it on the rhyme

Luckily we've got pricing locked in for 2.5 more years (I am sure broadcom will do their best to invalidate this), but lol at going to an ibm product for price relief

Saukkis
May 16, 2003

Unless I'm on the inside curve pointing straight at oncoming traffic the high beams stay on and I laugh at your puny protest flashes.
I am Most Important Man. Most Important Man in the World.

in a well actually posted:

Luckily we've got pricing locked in for 2.5 more years (I am sure broadcom will do their best to invalidate this), but lol at going to an ibm product for price relief

Admittedly IBM's Red Hat purchase didn't seem to cause any pricing catastrophe and the academic licensing still exists, so at least better than Broadcom.

fresh_cheese
Jul 2, 2014

MY KPI IS HOW MANY VP NUTS I SUCK IN A FISCAL YEAR AND MY LAST THREE OFFICE CHAIRS COMMITTED SUICIDE
If broadcom jacks your costs enough, and you primarily run linux/java based stuff, you can absolutely save money buying a goddamn mainframe from ibm and consolidating everything into it that will fit vs continuing business as usual with broadcom on x86


This is not to say the mainframe is cheap. Lol no of course it isnt.

This is to illustrate how bad broadcom is loving you over.

Thanks Ants
May 21, 2004

#essereFerrari


I would move to a competitor every time even if it didn't save any money compared to sticking with the supplier that just hiked their costs, purely out of spite

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

nobody cares


Broadcom is asking for enough that, in a perverse way, I can afford to replace all of my gear for every customer still on vsphere, gratis

what the absolute gently caress

Number19
May 14, 2003

HOCKEY OWNS
FUCK YEAH


I'm going to laugh if my renewal costs so much that it ends up cheaper to buy a couple of racks worth of servers instead and have one server per role.

Thanks Ants
May 21, 2004

#essereFerrari


Finally the product manager for 1U PowerEdge can get his sales performance bonus

fresh_cheese
Jul 2, 2014

MY KPI IS HOW MANY VP NUTS I SUCK IN A FISCAL YEAR AND MY LAST THREE OFFICE CHAIRS COMMITTED SUICIDE
Blade servers are back, baby

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

fresh_cheese posted:

Blade servers are back, baby

Hyperconverged time, baby!

Harry_Potato
May 21, 2021

CommieGIR posted:

Hyperconverged time, baby!

Nutanix is the last enterprise hypervisor standing. Decent support across vendors and tools and it checks the right corporate boxes. Xenserver has a lot of ground to cover before it can be taken seriously and the rest of the field is a KVM based tool but without the backing. Microsoft sells cloud and their only interest in hypervisors is using it as an on ramp. For all of us career virtualization guys, it's either learn a new product or apprentice at the muffler shop bending pipe. Hyperconverged is our last hope.

SlowBloke
Aug 14, 2017

Harry_Potato posted:

For all of us career virtualization guys, it's either learn a new product or apprentice at the muffler shop bending pipe. Hyperconverged is our last hope.

Or you could check your other infrastructure business units to see if there are other track that could provide a way out. Modern AV is almost as bullshit dense as virtualization with managing dante or other weird av tech crowbarred into IP.

Pile Of Garbage
May 28, 2007



New batch of ESXi/Fusion/Workstation sandbox-escape vulnerabilities, all of them critical: https://arstechnica.com/security/2024/03/vmware-issues-patches-for-critical-sandbox-escape-vulnerabilities/. I've a feeling some poor souls are going to spend the weekend patching.

Edit: on closer inspection the vulnerabilities only affect the USB controller so the workaround is to just remove any USB controllers from all your VMs.

Pile Of Garbage fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Mar 8, 2024

Moey
Oct 22, 2010

I LIKE TO MOVE IT

Pile Of Garbage posted:

New batch of ESXi/Fusion/Workstation sandbox-escape vulnerabilities, all of them critical: https://arstechnica.com/security/2024/03/vmware-issues-patches-for-critical-sandbox-escape-vulnerabilities/. I've a feeling some poor souls are going to spend the weekend patching.

Edit: on closer inspection the vulnerabilities only affect the USB controller so the workaround is to just remove any USB controllers from all your VMs.

I will admit, Lifecycle Manager + DRS makes this pretty hands off.

fresh_cheese
Jul 2, 2014

MY KPI IS HOW MANY VP NUTS I SUCK IN A FISCAL YEAR AND MY LAST THREE OFFICE CHAIRS COMMITTED SUICIDE

Harry_Potato posted:

Nutanix is the last enterprise hypervisor standing.

https://www.ibm.com/products/zvm

The first enterprise hypervisor is doing fine, tyvm
52 years young!

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009



fresh_cheese posted:

https://www.ibm.com/products/zvm

The first enterprise hypervisor is doing fine, tyvm
52 years young!
To be fair, hardware-accelerated virtualization and SLAT wasn't really available on x86 until Nahelem and Orleans - and very few people had the talents to develop something without it, as it required intimate knowledge of the CPU.
It wasn't fun to use before virtualization of interrupts and I/O MMU virtualization, which was half a decade later.

in a well actually
Jan 26, 2011

dude, you gotta end it on the rhyme

BlankSystemDaemon posted:

To be fair, hardware-accelerated virtualization and SLAT wasn't really available on x86 until Nahelem and Orleans - and very few people had the talents to develop something without it, as it required intimate knowledge of the CPU.
It wasn't fun to use before virtualization of interrupts and I/O MMU virtualization, which was half a decade later.

ESX came out in 2001, though.

Subjunctive
Sep 12, 2006

✨sparkle and shine✨

in a well actually posted:

ESX came out in 2001, though.

Do you remember using it? Oof.

Kaddish
Feb 7, 2002
I remember installing/using ESX. Not until 3.x though.

I remember being wary of ESXi, lol.

HalloKitty
Sep 30, 2005

Adjust the bass and let the Alpine blast

Subjunctive posted:

Do you remember using it? Oof.

I remember Connectix Virtual PC.
Hyper-V is what resulted from that purchase.

I remember VMware GSX, and early ESX, but I cannot remember the version. Mid 2000s, so probably 2

HalloKitty fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Mar 8, 2024

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Subjunctive
Sep 12, 2006

✨sparkle and shine✨

I remember trying to use the first release of VMwares stuff to let me build and debug Mozilla on Windows from a Linux machine and it was just miserable.

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